2[00:03:05] <ryouma> i have heard that apt(1) installs recommendations and suggests. is this true? does it make sense to turn one or both off for a dist-upgrade from stretch to buster?
3[00:03:23] <sney> it installs recommends by default but *not* suggests
4[00:03:47] <sney> for upgrades, it's best to leave it at defaults, just make sure to disable any extra sources
5[00:03:57] <ryouma> is that the same as apt-get?
6[00:04:06] *** kish`_ is now known as kish`
7[00:04:30] <sney> default behavior is the same regardless of which frontend is used, at least in this case
10[00:07:58] <somiaj> ryouma: note recommends are supose to be packages that are not a hard dependency, but you will loose functionality without, while suggests are sometimes more related software that is sometimes used in conjunction.
11[00:08:42] <somiaj> Of course there is some grey area, sometimes I think packages are recommended when they should only be suggested, but it might dependon the user if the functionality that is used is considered optional or not.
12[00:09:06] <sney> it's pretty easy to get into a broken state when disabling recommends by default.
13[00:09:20] <somiaj> so in general not installing recommends may mean you loose functionality of software that you want, hence the default is to include them.
14[00:09:36] <sney> I definitely use --no-install-recommends on the command line in specific situations from time to time, but I would never do it without seeing what was going to be installed first.
16[00:11:34] <mutante> ~ recommended to install recommended software but suggested to not blindly install all suggested packages
17[00:12:46] <ryouma> ok, yeah i was mostly concerned about the (apparently false) idea that apt installs suggests by default
18[00:13:21] <ryouma> i do know, however, that i have to do apt-get -o "Apt::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant=false" purge ... to get rid of cruft. but idr what that apt variable actually means and don't know what man page it is in. (i think it had something to do with an asymmetry where installing a package installs some stuff and then purging does not purge it.)
19[00:13:43] <somiaj> Also note debian allows non-free software to be suggested, so be careful if you choose to install suggests by default but dont' want non-free software.
20[00:14:14] <somiaj> well that is different, autoremove cannot tell if a package that is suggested by another package is wanted by you or not
21[00:14:32] <ryouma> i wouldn't install suggests by default
22[00:15:15] <somiaj> what is happening in that case is a package is installed as a depends/recommended of another package, but one on your system also suggests that package, so though apt wouldn't install it by default, it also won't remove it since it dosen't really know why that package is there, it only knows that a pakage you want suggests it.
30[00:17:19] <somiaj> it can, autoremove by default only removes packages that are auto installed, and not dependend on/recommneded/or suggeted by another manual package (or its dependencies)
31[00:17:47] <somiaj> or you installed something that was suggested then marked it as auto, there are lots of ways a suggested could have gotten installed
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40[00:22:09] <somiaj> sometimes due to the complex dependency tree it is useful to just look though what you have installed and think about if you need it, aptitude why packagename can often be useful
69[01:03:41] <ryouma> not really. just: so as not to get overwhelemed, to make copying faster, to make seraching fastger, to make integrity checking faster, to work on small devices, to reduce complexity in dist-upgrades, to find things quicker, to make man -k smaller, and to know what i have that i need among a bunch of similar choices because i kept only that one package.
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71[01:04:31] <ryouma> also to make dependency issues cleaner upon ordinary upgrades, installs, and purges.
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97[01:32:32] <maxrazer> When I use slim display manager to login I notice that the background theme for the login manager becomes my desktop for i3wm. Is that some side effect? I so no way to set wallpaper from slim, just login theme itself.
101[01:35:11] <LuKaRo> Yes, i3wm isn't clearing the screen when launching. So if the display manager does not do that as well, it's content will become your background.
102[01:35:44] *** Quits: Filohuhum (~filohuhum@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
103[01:36:14] <maxrazer> Ok, that is kind of what I was thinking. I'm not sure if slim has an option to do that, which would leave me with a black background again. Though, if I use some program like feh to run wallpaper I think that will overwrite it.
110[01:40:18] <maxrazer> I noticed that the Debian wiki says that the startx also does surprisingly even though it isn't even a display manager like XDM.
123[01:43:13] <maxrazer> As far as disabling display manager the only way I've found is to disable the systemctl service for whatever display manager is set to default. (I think)
124[01:43:55] <maxrazer> I'm going to try lightdm and reboot.
164[02:18:11] <Hash> What's the best way to switch from a diff distro to debian but keep /home and try to prerve /etc/ and other configs (going from a debian based distro to debian)
165[02:18:20] <Hash> Don't ask me why. Just help me. Thanks!
166[02:19:33] <Hash> This machine needs conversion!
167[02:19:49] <abrotman> you should ask the distro you're going to install to ensure their installer doesn't wipe the partition
168[02:20:39] <Hash> Well, the goal is to take this machine, repalce ubuntu with debian stable, and try to preserve /home and perhaps some settings from /etc so I don't have to redo everthing. Try to save me some work.
173[02:21:35] <abrotman> when you run the installer, there's an option to not format a filesystem
174[02:21:58] <abrotman> we may need to know more about the filesystem if there's something special like LVM or luks or whatever
175[02:22:47] <Hash> No I'll be installing a different partition altogether, so incase anything gets messed up, I can have the original ubuntu parition. Oh just direct partition access, on layers in the middle, GPT disk, 5800x cpu
176[02:24:21] <Hash> I'm not wanting to save the package list, as that maybe different (diff package names etc.) but common configs like nginx, and various other stuffs, I think I'll just install debian to a diff partition, and then mount /etc from original partition, and copy over whatever I need for whatever ackage.
178[02:24:47] <Hash> Thing I wanted to worrya bout was, config file differences perhaps in the same software but diff distro mabye cause issues? I dunno this.
182[02:25:54] <Hash> The rest of the most of the configs would be in /home and again the worry is whether programs migh have changed their config file format or something from ubuntu 20.04 lts stable to debian stable latest.
183[02:26:23] <somiaj> abrotman: due to differences it might be easier to just backup /etc and /home, and then copy over the stuff you want, this also is good practice so you have a backup of your data.
190[02:27:41] <somiaj> though note, software configurations in $HOME should carry over just fine provided the versions match, often times configurations can go from older to newer version, but not newer to older as nicely (and this varies between software). Hence if you just backup and copy over stuff, you can test things out and see what configurations still work and don't.
191[02:27:57] <Hash> HYmm
192[02:28:06] <Hash> I will back up /home/usr/.config an any .dot files
193[02:28:10] <somiaj> I once tried to share /home across a few dual boots, and quickly found out it was a pain due to different versions of software being slightly different.
194[02:28:13] <Hash> That's a sound idea
195[02:28:30] <Hash> yeah, that's I discovered once too which is why I'm very cautious now
196[02:28:32] <somiaj> I would jsut backup all of /home/usr (or all of /home), as backups are always good ot have floatinga round.
199[02:28:52] <Hash> well I mean just the dot stuff.
200[02:29:14] <somiaj> Plus I find personally when I do this, I have changed, and so sometimes it is just easier to reconfigure to my new desires from defaults vs some old config that I have had floating around for many years.
208[02:43:24] <abstrn> Maybe this isn't the best place to ask this, but I haven't found an answer anywhere else: I have an external hdd that stays plugged in most of the time but sometimes I "safely remove" it via udisksctl --unmount/--power-off and then unplug it. Then when I plug it into the same USB port shortly after, it is not at all recognized by the system. 'lsblk' doesn't show it, it doesn't show up anywhere in
209[02:43:25] <abstrn> /dev/sd* that I can find. If I plug it into another USB port, it shows up and I can mount fine. And if maybe a week goes by, I can plug it into the original port and it's recognized again. Does anyone know what's going on? Does the system somehow cache which harddrives are ejected, and ignore them for a while after they're removed?
210[02:49:06] <somiaj> abstrn: that sounds like hardware issues, could that usb port just be failing?
211[02:49:27] <abstrn> perhaps, but it
212[02:49:36] <abstrn> 's happened on multiple usb ports
213[02:49:45] <somiaj> maybe an issue with the usb controler?
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215[02:50:17] <somiaj> have you looked at 'demsg' right after you plugged the drive back in, you should get a hardware event even if it doesn't assign it a blk device
220[02:53:53] <abstrn> there's no indication in dmesg that it's been plugged in... maybe it is a hardware issue. but another strange thing is that when i plug in a usb hub into the original port, and plug the hdd into the hub, it is recognized
222[02:58:34] <somiaj> could be the usb drive is having issues, the usb controler, have you tried this in another computer? Do you have this issue with other usb devices?
223[02:59:06] <somiaj> but what you are describing sounds like hardware to me, if the kernel isn't triggering any event when you plug it in (which should appear in demsg), then some hardware isn't triggering the event to send to the kernel.
240[03:12:54] <abstrn> makes sense, probably hardware then :(. i thought i remember it happening on a debian server a while ago but that was an old machine and could also have had a hardware issue.
253[03:27:36] <ryouma> abstrn: i am curious about udisksctl --unmount/--power-off as i have not heard of them. have you considered hdparm -B and umount?
268[03:54:55] <abstrn> huh, looking again at the manpage, udisksctl power-off says that "the USB device will be deconfigured followed by disabling the upstream hub port it is connected to". so maybe that is the issue? ryouma: i haven't used hdparm to power off a device, i thought -B just changes power management/preformance?
270[03:55:43] <abstrn> or is unmounting the device enough? i guess i just got in the habit of doing udisksctl unmount / power-off before removing a device, maybe the second step isn't necessary?
274[04:06:53] <ryouma> idk if an unmounted partition's drive will still spin, i would only guess that it does. but ime the power management can be used to power off effectively.
275[04:08:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1010
276[04:08:44] <ryouma> abstrn: look at sdparm man page. eject, stop, and " In the Linux 2.6 series, especially with ATA disks, using sdparm to stop (spin down) a disk may not be sufficient and other mechanisms will start the disk again some time later. The user might additionally mark the disk as "offline" with 'echo offline > /sys/block/sda/device/state' where sda is the block name of the disk. To restart the disk "offl
277[04:08:44] <ryouma> ine" can be replaced with "running". "
278[04:09:07] <ryouma> there -y in hdparm but maybe only for an obsolescent bus
279[04:09:34] <ryouma> although i believe it worked ok for external sata long ago
280[04:10:12] <ryouma> so it sounds complex, unfortunately
281[04:15:05] <abstrn> ryouma: hm, thanks for the info, i'll take a look at sdparm
282[04:16:33] <ryouma> i use -B for those bus powered externals
283[04:16:51] <ryouma> idk if i should be using more lately, haven't checked
287[04:18:22] <ryouma> another question is whether you are improving anything other than power. for example, does it affect power surge response. or does arm parking status affect anything.
408[07:16:27] <Lope> In my /etc/network/interfaces I have a bridge, br0 configured to include eth0 in it's bridge-ports. In /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf I have unmanaged-devices=interface-name:br0;interface-name:eth0;interface-name:enp34s0
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410[07:16:43] <Lope> And yet when I boot up, eth0 receives a DHCP IP address from the LAN
411[07:16:50] <Lope> It's extremely annoying.
412[07:17:00] <Lope> That IP is on the same subnet as my static IP on br0
413[07:17:14] <Lope> So I have to manually remove the IP from eth0 on every boot.
415[07:18:11] <somiaj> Any reason you want to use network manager and myabe just result to only using the interfaces file?
416[07:18:33] <somiaj> and you don't have any dhcp setup for eth0 or the bridge in the interfaces file?
417[07:18:57] <somiaj> maybe (a) disable network manager, and make sure that is the culprit that is causing you the problem, if so one solution is just uninstall network manager.
418[07:19:06] <alkisg> Does `nmcli` show this device as unmanaged? If yes, the problem would be in /etc/network/interfaces, you could pastebin its content
419[07:19:33] <somiaj> Or let someone who knows network manager give a better way to check if it is managed or not.
420[07:19:37] <ryouma> i have network manager purged and my system seems to work, fwiw. i was nervous about purging it.
422[07:19:52] <ryouma> and didn't change anything to purge it, just puirged it
423[07:20:00] <Lope> somiaj, I only have NetworkManager because it makes it easy to connect to a wifi network. But I'm not currently using NetworkManager at all. I don't even have a wireless adapter installed/attached at the moment, so the NetworkManager widget in KDE is empty.
426[07:20:38] <somiaj> I personally use wpa_supplicant in roam mode and wpa_gui for this from my interfaces file, /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant has a good guide how to configure this
427[07:21:06] <somiaj> If you want a non networkmanager way to manage wifi networks, but this maybe beyond your actual problem, and more avoids it. I would first folow alkisg advice and double check that network manager is really causing the problem.
428[07:21:46] <Lope> alkisg, `nmcli` shows that every single network interface is unmanaged by NetworkManager, currently.
430[07:22:27] <alkisg> Lope: then I would gather that the IP is set by ifupdown. Can you pastebin the contents of /etc/network/interfaces? Hide macs/ips if you want
431[07:23:14] <Lope> oh... bastard. I found /etc/network/interfaces.d/setup
432[07:23:32] <Lope> I've not used files in there before.
433[07:23:46] <Lope> In that file it adds eth0 dhcp
434[07:24:04] <somiaj> yea, more and more things are splitting up configuration files to make things more modular, but now you no longer have a single file to look through.
435[07:24:07] <Lope> (Ive not used interfaces.d before) seems like a relatively new thing.
436[07:24:18] <Lope> yeah. Thanks
437[07:24:41] <Lope> That explains the BS I've been experiencing on my other PC as well :/
439[07:24:52] <somiaj> Lope: yea, more and more there are foo.d/ directories all through out /etc
440[07:25:05] <somiaj> so just make sure you keep your eyes out for them.
441[07:25:18] <Lope> yeah
442[07:25:41] <Lope> /etc/daddy.d/ who's your daddy?
443[07:26:40] <alkisg> But note that each .d has its own rules; /etc/network/interfaces.d requires "no extension", while e.g. /etc/dnsmasq.d accepts "almost any extension, even .bak"
445[07:27:16] <Lope> somiaj, thanks for the tip man! I've only used wpa supplicant a handfull of times, because I found that configuring wifi interfaces via config files was very arduous.
446[07:27:30] <Lope> somiaj, but wpa_gui sounds promising. I'll check it out.
448[07:27:51] <somiaj> Lope: It is a very simple tool, and I rarely use it, but yea I like this as wpa_supplicant is installed and used anyways, so use its features vs something else
449[07:29:04] <Lope> I actually don't like NetworkManager at all, I just find that it's helpful for connecting to WiFi. I've also used the network manager widget previously when testing VPN connections (only from very new live distros) which was quite nice, it even handled wireguard.
450[07:30:12] <Lope> But generally I don't like magic, it's not often the magic does what I want specifically. And when it breaks, then if I've been reliant on magic, then I suddenly find myself with broken production systems, at step 1 of knowledge and negative time available to fix the issue.
451[07:30:16] <alkisg> It's also nice that it displays an icon with the current status, so in desktop environments you can easily detect when the network cable has been unplugged :)
453[07:31:33] <Lope> alkisg, yes, although I tell networkmanager that it's not allowed to touch my wired interfaces, so that functionality doesn't really work for me.
454[07:32:03] <Lope> I found NetworkManager with bridges to be very unreliable.
455[07:32:22] <Lope> And I often use bridges when I run VM's.
457[07:32:26] <alkisg> I'm using network-manager with bonding in about 100 schools with no issues, it's rather stable here
458[07:32:36] <alkisg> Not bridging though; just bonding
459[07:33:02] <Lope> is bonding like raid 1 or like failover?
460[07:33:42] <alkisg> Both. It doubles the speed with 2 NICs, and can also work with a single NIC
461[07:34:03] <Lope> So you need 2 NICs on each end both configured to bond?
462[07:34:30] <alkisg> No. E.g. a server has 2 NICs, and 10 clients have 1 NIC. This means that the server can send/receive with 2 gbps instead of 1 gbps
464[07:36:04] <alkisg> (all in the same simple switch)
465[07:36:11] <Lope> oh, wild, so can you connect the server's 2 NICs to an unmanaged switch, and bond the nics to have a single static IP?
466[07:37:12] <alkisg> Yes, I even set the same MAC for both NICs from network-manager, so that it's easier to detect the server with arp from elsewhere
472[07:37:48] <alkisg> And it's just an nmconnection file, nothing more
473[07:37:49] <Lope> The switch is a dumb unmanaged switch, and the other nodes on the network don't know?
474[07:37:54] <Lope> Amazing
475[07:38:02] <alkisg> Exactly, cheap switches here, schools are poor :D
476[07:38:09] <Lope> Wow, that's awesome
477[07:38:25] <Lope> I've got a spare gbps port going to waste.
478[07:38:54] <Lope> It's a pity that SFP+ and 10GBE is so expensive.
479[07:39:39] <Lope> I mean, I could afford picking up some 10GBE cards at $100 each but then I ask myself "Do I really need it?" and the answer is "Not for a few hundred dollars."
480[07:39:41] <Lord_Devi> I've got something similar setup with my home. 2 broadband connections at home, each tunneled into its own remote cloud server. I don't think it was a bonded setup, but they work in fail over mode and will under most circumstances boost my bandwidth.
481[07:40:15] <Lord_Devi> I wanted a setup, where I could have 2 ISPSs, and any one of them could go down - but I'd still have internet. And if both were up, I might be able to download or upload things a bit faster.
482[07:40:36] <Lope> Lord_Devi, interesting, I planned to do that previously. Are you using any special sauce to make it work?
483[07:41:04] <alkisg> I'm hoping that we'll soon see switches that will support 2x 10GBE (bond) for the server, and the newish 2.5 GHz standard for the clients with the existing cabling. With the HDD > SSD upgrade, local disks are now much faster than LAN, and this will lower the gap...
484[07:41:15] <Lope> Lord_Devi, I actually was going to do the same thing, but then it turned out that my secondary ISP was such a piece of crap and so unreliable as to be pretty much a waste of money, so I cancelled it.
485[07:41:18] <Lord_Devi> Well it is OpenBSD based, and I was using ifstated to monitor the interface state. Then pf to make sure return traffic was going over the right interface. But honestly it wasn't working 100% right.
486[07:41:32] <Lord_Devi> I'm still working on fixing the quirks with a person I found to help.
487[07:42:26] <Lope> alkisg, the thing is though, that 10GB copper ethernet (whatever it's called) doesn't need to be expensive. and it even works over Cat5e over short distances (like one room to another).
488[07:42:41] <Lope> They're just charging early adopter tax on it.
489[07:43:07] <alkisg> Ah really? My use case is "a single computer lab of e.g. 25 m2", so it would work there with the existing cabling, nice!
490[07:43:36] <Lope> alkisg, I can't bring myself to buy any 2.5Gbps equipment. You can basically get almost the same bonding 2x 1gbe ports together, and I've always got spare 1gbps nics banging around.
494[07:44:01] <Lord_Devi> There is a 4 port 10Gb on amazon for like only 140 I think. It supports Copper as well as SFP+. Adapter needed for copper.
495[07:44:07] <alkisg> Unfortunately we can't use bonding on the clients, not enough ports for that
496[07:44:26] <Lord_Devi> The copper 10Gb's use way more power than the fibre optics though, and run really hot.
497[07:44:30] <alkisg> Last time I checked, the 10Gb NICs were also expensive...
498[07:45:09] <Lope> alkisg, and I almost always find it a waste of money to spend $30 on 2.5Gbps instead of $100 on 10Gbps, becauee invariably, I buy it initially, just because I want it. Then later I find out that I need it, and then the $30 I spent on 2.5Gbps is basically a mediocre solution that I have to discard, so the $30 was actually just a waste and I should have just spent $100 from the get go. Cheap is expensive. So I tend to delay pulling the trigger when possible,
499[07:45:09] <Lope> but then go big when I do upgrade.
500[07:45:10] <Lord_Devi> I'd generally only really use the copper if I had to run a longer 10Gb I think. NOT AN EXPERT though.. lol.. I just found that long fibre was really difficult to acquire, and then work with.
501[07:45:57] <Lord_Devi> Lope: Yeah it really is a good idea to wait those extra couple of months to be able to just afford the correct solution the first time. If possible.
502[07:46:21] <alkisg> A quick check here, says 30€ for 2.5 Gb, and 143€ for 10 Gb. Hmm, for e.g. 12 clients, schools couldn't afford 10 Gb yet :/
503[07:46:42] <Lope> But I even feel like 10Gbps is a bit of a joke. I've seen 40Gbps QSFP+ cards on ebay for a reasonable price. Problem is I'm in South Africa and shipping costs with "the virus" is worse than ever. Also apparently those old used QSFP+ server cards are very power hungry, which is also off-putting.
504[07:46:46] <Lord_Devi> Schools don't know how to handle money.
505[07:46:52] <alkisg> I guess we'll need to use SSDs for caching for a few years :D
506[07:47:09] <alkisg> (fortunately most of our traffic is cache-able)
507[07:47:28] <Lord_Devi> Lope: lol, i found out about the QSFP+ just after I had pulled trigger on ordering all my 10gb SFTP equip. Like.. the next day. I had thought I dug too!!
508[07:47:33] <Lope> So I'm kind of irrationally waiting for reasonably priced 100GbE or at least like 50Gbe etc to feel like it's a worthy reason to spend money on a network upgrade. It's gotta at least reach something that resembles a single SSD speed.
509[07:48:03] <Lord_Devi> Ideally on gear not produced or manufactured by skynet.
511[07:49:25] <Lope> Lord_Devi, apparently getting SFP+ switches are cheaper, but then if you want to get the copper adapters it ends up being a lot more expensive.
512[07:49:39] <Lope> So apparently there are 2 cost effective ways to homelab fast ethernet.
513[07:49:55] <Lope> 1. QSFP+ with direct attach copper cables "DAC cables"
514[07:50:26] <Lope> 2. Proper RJ-45 10GBE copper switch and NIC's. The switch prices have come down a LOT. The NIC's are unfortunately still $100.
516[07:51:35] <Lope> Lord_Devi, interesting, yes I've heard that coppper 10Gbe uses a lot more power but haven't looked into quantifying it
517[07:52:13] <Lord_Devi> Yeah. That mattered to me too, because I was trying to build an ultra low power home lab. I even went so far as to get this special ATOM processor for my openbsd firewall.
518[07:52:55] <Lord_Devi> Although... I think I am kind of not sure if I want to continue that trend. I really like the idea of my network being able to resist a ton of power outage. But at the same time, I am not super pleased with these low power atoms.
519[07:55:50] <Lord_Devi> MikroTik has this really nice 16 port 10Gb I got, CRS317-1G-16S+RM, to tie into a 24 port 1Gb switch (CSS326-24G-2S+RM) that also has 2x 10Gb ports (to tie to the big ass 10Gb). Didn't cost much!!
521[07:56:37] <Lord_Devi> The 16 port mikrotik 10Gb was the most expensive part, but still I was shocked at how affordable it was. I think it is a bit more now.. costs like $350. I think I got mine for about $250...
531[08:03:36] <Lord_Devi> Yeah it says it is a 16w TDP. So I'm not 100% if that's exactly power from wall you asking for, but it is related. I get a little confused with those specifics honestly.
532[08:03:58] <Lord_Devi> RUNS great. Takes FOREVER to boot.
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550[08:32:20] <TheBigK> hi, I have a developer here that does have a root partition encrypted but the password which worked yesterday is not working anymore. replaced-url
551[08:32:26] <TheBigK> does anyone have any idea about this?
552[08:32:47] <TheBigK> i saw some errors logged in the smart memory... but the lukscontainer looks fine to me?!
553[08:32:56] <TheBigK> is there some sort of check mechanism which i can use?
554[08:33:17] <hwpplayer1> Yes But this is a Security hole
555[08:33:28] <hwpplayer1> As in my understanding
556[08:33:40] <hwpplayer1> You need to prove the ownership
557[08:33:43] <TheBigK> hes 100 % sure that he knows the password
558[08:34:12] <TheBigK> is there a destroying mechanism for too many tries? no, right?
578[08:39:55] <hwpplayer1> i saw some errors logged in the smart memory... but the lukscontainer looks fine to me?! // How did you realize that ? With a tool I mean or by hand ? I ask because I will check tools for that Okay ?
579[08:41:41] <hwpplayer1> TheBigK: Can I pm you ?
582[08:54:32] *** Joins: mezzo (~mezzo@replaced-ip)
583[08:56:41] <Lope> Lord_Devi, in my experience it's pointless worrying about power consumption if you don't have a device that measures power consumption from the wall, because sometimes you'll do "optimizations" that you think save power, but they cause more power to be used, or sometimes you do "optimizations" that make the system painfully slow, but only save an irrelevant amount of power. So I now regard having such a device as a requirement before I do any power
584[08:56:41] <Lope> tweaking. They're not expensive.
585[08:57:27] <Lope> Expecially in the case of a desktop PC. At least with a laptop, if you run it from battery, powertop can tell you relatively accurately how much power you're using.
588[09:00:49] <hwpplayer1> TheBigK: Are you there ?
589[09:01:26] <Lord_Devi> Lope: Yeah. I agree with the need for a meter of some kind. I got a special kind of power supply bar for my rack that will measure the power drain at each outlet in it. You can connect to the power remotely to fetch data from it too. ALTHOUGH that's home lab stuff I haven't gotten to playing with yet.
590[09:02:06] <Lord_Devi> I don't have anything like that for my desktop or various vdu's though.
592[09:03:22] <Lord_Devi> I am getting a sense for that problem you raise issue with though: The tweaking for 'irrelevant amount of power' differences. I probably could have gotten a an ATOM with a bit more power draw, like say.. 30 TDP and gotten WAY more performance out of it.
598[09:04:44] <Lord_Devi> We were discussing network gear, and their power usage.
599[09:04:50] <Lope> hwpplayer1, Lord_Devi said he setup a low power atom server for his homelab.
600[09:05:08] <hwpplayer1> When it comes to server we usually run a server without a GUI
601[09:05:13] <hwpplayer1> funabashi: ^
602[09:05:14] <Lord_Devi> We were talking about 10Gb SFP+ networking gear, and I had mentioned how the copper adapters draw way more power on them than the fiber does.
624[09:12:20] <Lord_Devi> Yeah I am in the same boat with that. It's that general feeling that lead me to just digging into 'pf' for openbsd, rather than bothering with pfsense.
625[09:12:28] <hwpplayer1> Lord_Devi: It seems that I talk about K8s or docker when i say microserver yes you are right
626[09:12:40] <Lord_Devi> Similar scenario... Not cisco related. I was never interested in cisco for anything.
627[09:13:11] <hwpplayer1> I learned Cisco it is funny but I do not want any of their device or software
628[09:13:12] <Lord_Devi> I'm JUST learning bout k8's now. It is actually kind of why I'm looking into Debian more seriously now.
629[09:13:42] <hwpplayer1> Debian is like Red Hat Ubuntu is like more like Fedora
630[09:13:51] <Lord_Devi> I am trying to figure out what a good server farm for a lot of static websites might look like. K8's are sounding like a good option for me to be playing with. But TOTALLY new to me.
631[09:14:09] <Lord_Devi> I'm just... like, a linux user from the 90's who's use virtual machines his whole life.
632[09:14:29] <hwpplayer1> You can handle if you know what is the kernel side and how UNIX is designed nothing new there
633[09:15:18] <dreamer> hwpplayer1: eh?
634[09:15:27] <Lord_Devi> Oh interesting grouping! I wouldn't have used that. I would have grouped them the other way around. "Ubuntu is like a mutant Debian." and, "Fedora is a mutant Red Hat".
635[09:15:29] <hwpplayer1> dreamer: ?
636[09:15:35] <dreamer> "< hwpplayer1> Debian is like Red Hat Ubuntu is like more like Fedora"
637[09:15:39] <dreamer> this doesn't make any sense
638[09:15:43] <dreamer> and is not based in any reality I know of
639[09:16:17] <hwpplayer1> Okay I mean Debian and RHEL is more focused on stability and the others are focused on fast development
642[09:16:36] <dreamer> ubuntu is not focussed on "fast development"
643[09:16:44] <Lord_Devi> Ubuntu is based on Debian/sid. Red Hat kinda stems from Fedora. I say kinda.. because they have an odd chicken and egg thing going on.
644[09:17:01] <hwpplayer1> From my experience I see that But Fedora is really focused on fast development
645[09:17:39] <tarzeau_> ubuntu, redhat, fedora is offtopic here. thanks
646[09:17:40] <Lord_Devi> I was toying with the idea of trying fedora for my k8 project. I like the idea of CoreOS and of silverbleu's immutable operating systems.
647[09:17:48] <Lord_Devi> But ultimately.. RH are dicks, and don't like using their tech. lol
649[09:18:26] <hwpplayer1> tarzeau_: I know I am teaching the K8s to focus on it's own Debian instances, trying him to understand Debian
650[09:18:29] <Lord_Devi> I went to the k8 homepage, and their instructions.. IMMEDIATELY dived into instructions for building k8 clusters with Debian. That was a great sign to me.
651[09:19:05] <Lord_Devi> Just found out today Docker K8's are a no-go though. I wasn't aware of that.
652[09:19:13] <Lord_Devi> Docker Pro? No thanks. Podman it is I guess.
653[09:19:21] *** Quits: silverwhitefish (~hidden@replaced-ip) (Quit: One for all, all for One (2 Corinthians 5))
654[09:19:25] <hwpplayer1> Google suggests or offers in their shell Debian as i know
655[09:20:11] <hwpplayer1> In short you can run Debian for anything Lord_Devi
656[09:20:47] <hwpplayer1> tarzeau_: What do you think about the cryptsetup issue above ?
657[09:21:01] <hwpplayer1> Do you know any forensics team for Debian ?
658[09:21:34] <Hash> I'm working on a debian set of meta packages
675[09:24:20] <Hash> you just need debian, and some meta packages to install said categorized tools.
676[09:24:22] <hwpplayer1> Debian is enough for your needs just apt install some tool
677[09:24:24] <Hash> easy peasy
678[09:24:34] <Lord_Devi> I hear you about Kali though.
679[09:24:40] <Hash> IT's bloated bloatware
680[09:24:42] <Lord_Devi> Ah yeah meta packages. Like build-essentials?
681[09:24:50] <Hash> I want debian menu to show these programs, no matter the wm.
682[09:25:00] <Hash> I use Xmonad only.
683[09:25:04] <Lord_Devi> Sorry, it has been a while since I loaded up Debian. Refreshing myself on it right now.
684[09:25:16] <Hash> meta packages are those that depend on other packages. Meta means about.
685[09:25:37] <Hash> They are packages about packages, that install other packages. Or a collection fo packages by installing just one.
686[09:25:38] <Lord_Devi> Yeah Xmonad is nice. I don't haskell though. But I used Xmonad for a few weeks on my laptop. It was actually the very first tiling window manager I ever used, and fell in love INSTANTLY.
687[09:25:46] <gry> nice
688[09:25:52] <Hash> you amek a meta package (*or jsut a package) and just put in whatgever it should dependon
689[09:26:06] <Hash> Then you install that pckage, and everything it depends on wil be auto isntalled.
690[09:26:18] <Hash> You can consider them tasks kind of like, in tasksel, but not really
693[09:26:26] <Lord_Devi> Yeah. Good to know there are cool pentest meta packages to look at. Also, sounds incredibly useful to perhaps just make a few of my own.
694[09:26:33] <Lord_Devi> TASKSEL!! I remember that
697[09:27:40] <Hash> I'm doing my 2nd bachelors in science these days
698[09:27:48] <Hash> Cybersecurity this time, first was comp. sci
699[09:28:42] <Lord_Devi> Oh very cool. There is going to be an insatiable demand for security experts. The ransomware is spreading fear amoung the corps like crazy.
700[09:29:23] <Lord_Devi> Plus it is fun. I may be wrong about this, but I think Cyber Security is as yet, the only real IT profession that is nearly purely gamefied.
701[09:29:56] <Lord_Devi> You literally build your resume by playing security wargames. Way cooler than building a resume by having HR count your lines of codes and number of commits.
707[09:32:16] <Lord_Devi> Yes it encompasses all the rest of the IT professions.
708[09:32:17] *** Quits: HeXiLeD (~grumpy@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
709[09:32:54] <Hash> You need to know multiple disciplines in order to be successful at it. You need to know networking, software dev/programing for software/buffer/etc exploit, you need to be able to use various OS comfortably, use various OSes command line tools and internals in depth, sytem admin work, settign up services and sercuring/hardening them, penetration testing, social engineering etc. etc.
711[09:34:04] <Lord_Devi> Yeah, "I don't like Mac, so i'm not going to touch it." is not something a security expert gets to say. About any OS really.
712[09:34:47] <Hash> yup
713[09:34:52] <Lord_Devi> Lord, I watch some of these videos of people walking through some of those pico challenges and wargames. It is CRAZY the obscure knowledge these guys need to get through the challenges.
714[09:34:56] <Hash> no matter how annoying you find an os, you gotta know abou it
715[09:35:10] <Hash> Anyway we're offtopic.
716[09:35:22] <Lord_Devi> hah, yeah. ##security I guess.
717[09:35:33] <Lord_Devi> Didn't know about that. I'll poke my headi n later. Thanx
729[09:50:54] <TheBigK> i ended up reinstalling the system. the dev needs to work. we gonna do a header backup now... that we can recover for next time
730[09:50:58] <TheBigK> but i dont know what happened
739[09:54:18] *** Quits: bigpresh (~bigpresh@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
740[09:54:19] *** Quits: Swant (swant@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
741[09:54:19] *** Quits: nicole (ilbelkyr@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
742[09:54:19] *** Quits: tomaw (tom@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
743[09:54:19] *** Quits: JonathanD (~JonathanD@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
744[09:54:20] *** Quits: kloeri (~kloeri@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
745[09:54:20] *** Quits: mniip (mniip@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
746[09:54:20] *** Quits: WrathOfAchilles (unit193@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
747[09:54:21] *** Quits: kline (~freedom0@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
748[09:54:21] *** Quits: Stx (~stx@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
749[09:54:21] *** Quits: Unit193 (ukikie@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
750[09:54:21] *** Quits: mquin (~mquin@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
751[09:54:21] *** Quits: niko (~niko@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
752[09:54:22] *** Quits: jess (jess@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
753[09:54:23] *** Quits: Sigyn (sigyn@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
754[09:54:23] *** Quits: eir (bot@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
758[09:54:39] *** Quits: ChanServ (ChanServ@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.)))
762[09:54:48] *** Quits: grumble (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. I'm leaving freenode forever and I recommend you drop your NickServ account to keep your data safe.)))
774[09:56:27] <Hash> I think he's fine. A few sentences of venting is fine. Shit happened. It's natural. So I didn't follow your issue, but what happened? You upgraded something? Or when did yo notice disk was inaccessible?
777[09:57:02] <TheBigK> from one day to the other... he tried older kernel as well... we tried live system. his cryptsetup password did not get accepted
778[09:57:25] <Hash> Something must have changed on the system.
779[09:57:36] <Hash> Any package updatges or forigen repos?
780[09:57:41] <Hash> Audit everything you can
781[09:57:42] <TheBigK> how should i check when i cant access the device without the password :D
782[09:58:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1010
783[09:58:08] <Hash> The man should know if he did anytning to the system
826[10:02:59] <TheBigK> we r not in north korea here... he would have admitted it... trsut me
827[10:03:13] <Hash> you can't say for certain anything about another's mind.
828[10:03:26] <Hash> Hel
829[10:03:34] <Hash> One can rarely ever even be certain of one's own mind.
830[10:03:36] <Hash> ffs
831[10:03:38] <Hash> :)
832[10:03:49] <TheBigK> true... i mean... its not the biggest deal in the end of the day... annoying surely... but not a big deal.. everything he was working on, was checked in....
833[10:03:55] <Lord_Devi> I've totally nuked data in the past. Owned up to instantly. Kept that client for years.
834[10:03:57] <another> Hash: Don't read my mind, please.
877[10:21:14] <Hash> And about the recently oper kills, thre was this gy in ##security claiming he had 0 days aginat this very ircd and he was going to use them if the ops iddn't take his findings seriously
878[10:21:24] <Hash> he said he would prove it. I wonder what's happening.
879[10:21:47] <TheBigK> #freenode is the right place i would say
919[10:58:25] <queip> channels might need to move to other ircnet, esp if they are oriented around various aspects of free networks. I guess debian has OFTC #debian, so lucky for us
931[11:07:43] <SymbioticFemale> hey everyone. theres a dumpster fire going on in freenode right now. if you have debian support questions or some copper wire to burn the insulation off of, come join the dumpster fire.
932[11:07:51] <SymbioticFemale> sorry. in #freenode
933[11:08:29] *** EnchanterTim is now known as Hash
964[11:24:18] <Hash> OFTC debian is official for irc.debian.org and will remain
965[11:24:32] <Hash> Makes no difference, as all official debian channels and project is there.
966[11:25:27] <shtrb> Odin (OFTC) would make the benches ready for a glorious feast
967[11:25:28] <Hash> Should something happen to freenode, there is always irc.debian.org #debian and all official channels. People will simply start joining there.
968[11:25:53] <Hash> They should certainly get ready to expect more users perhaps. Who can say
1040[12:45:15] <funabashi> Hi is there any lightwight debian version? i dont need any GUI.
1041[12:45:30] *** Quits: Iamthehuman (~noname@replaced-ip) (Quit: reboot for upgrades)
1042[12:46:41] <ratrace> funabashi: yes. just don't install one during.... installation.
1043[12:46:50] <shtrb> or uninstall
1044[12:47:28] <ratrace> more precisely, don't _select_ the (Default (GNOME)) GUI during installation .. or uninstall which may be a bit more finnicky to do
1113[13:46:27] <Lope> any recommendations for chunk-size for raid 0 of NVME?
1114[13:46:31] <Lope> 3x nvme drives
1115[13:48:57] <ratrace> Lope: depends on your file sizes histogram
1116[13:49:16] <jelly> about yay big
1117[13:49:20] <ratrace> Basically you want your most sized files to fit in 3 chunks
1118[13:50:01] <ratrace> 3 chunks *or more
1119[13:50:37] <ratrace> you don't want less. so for example if you use chunk size of 64k, any file smaller than that won't be spread in 3 stripes. only files 3x64k or bigger would.
1120[13:51:33] <ratrace> I use 8k for my steam games 2-way raid0, as an example.
1121[13:51:38] <Lope> ratrace, I'm confused. I thought mdadm --level 3 will spread data across the 3 devices so that any block stored on the md, will consume space across all 3 devices?
1122[13:52:13] <ratrace> Lope: yes but how do you think it'll make 3 stripes for chunk size N if the file is smaller than 3xN ?
1123[13:52:13] <Lope> if I specify --chunk=12K does that mean it'll put 4K on each device, resulting in a 12k chunk that I should format my filesystem with?
1138[13:55:02] <Lope> How about 8K, that way it should work well on my NVME SSD's which might have 8K blocks internally.
1139[13:55:06] <shtrb> ratrace, that the problem I don't get an error (in any log I could find) I do ssh -X , do "flatpak run com.skype.Client" no error presnted but no drawing of X locally. I had even minimized it to local machine only (to be sure it's not a firewall or something like that issue ) so locally ssh -X differentuser@localhost would still fail
1140[13:55:18] <Lope> ratrace, I'm going to be storing large files, videos.
1149[13:56:11] <ratrace> Lope: I did benchmarks. the biggest difference was for file size fitting in the full stripe width. for 8k chunks that was 16k or larger
1150[13:56:40] <ratrace> but between 8k or 64k or 512k, the difference was negligible in my tests in fact, coutner intuitively, it seemed as if smaller chunkss were faster
1151[13:57:44] <ratrace> (16k or larger, for a 2-wide raid0, thus 2x8k)
1152[13:57:47] <jelly> also you probably want to avoid giving SSDs too many tiny writes, even if their firmware and caching and write blocks are supposed to Deal With It
1153[13:58:40] <ratrace> that too. eraseblock sizes matter
1154[13:58:51] <jelly> SSDs have like 1M-4M blocks "internally"
1155[13:59:16] <Lope> jelly, interesting
1156[13:59:59] <ratrace> Lope: one thing though .... raid0 can be _slower_ than other levels, depending on the use case
1160[14:01:42] <ratrace> so for a video hosting use case, it may happen that you're better off with a mirror, if performance is what you seek, assuming you can spare the space, if you have multiple processes contending for reads. it's not as clear cut, you should benchmark as close to your use case as possible
1161[14:03:38] <ratrace> the reason is relatively simple. A single read transaction will engange the full stripe width of disks, whereas for mirrors, a single reader process might use one disk, another will use anotehr disk and yet another will use the third.
1165[14:04:24] <ratrace> so 3-way raid1 can satisfy 3 readers independently, wheree a 3-wide raid0 can satisfy 1 reader for same drive engagement, bandwidth and iops per drive.
1166[14:05:05] *** Quits: Haudegen (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Quit: Bin weg.)
1167[14:05:28] <ratrace> (writes are the opposite: single writer will concurrently hit 3 disks for 1/3rd of bandwidth of single, compared to mirror)
1174[14:06:18] <Lope> ratrace, I'm so lost reading about chunk size
1175[14:06:29] <Lope> I find it very weird that the default is 512K
1176[14:06:30] <ratrace> I was too, so I ran tests :)
1177[14:06:31] <Lope> Seems so insane?
1178[14:06:34] <ratrace> it is
1179[14:06:37] <Lope> hahaha good idea.
1180[14:06:41] <Walex> ratrace: that comparison between 3-wide RAID0 and RAID1 is way, way too simplistic, it depends a lot on access patterns, stripe size, rotational latency.
1181[14:06:44] <Lope> I suppose tests are the only way.
1182[14:07:05] <ratrace> Walex: correct. my point was that raid0==faster is not necessarily true, depending on use case
1183[14:07:07] <Walex> Lope: even tests can be misleading in the general case
1184[14:07:25] <Lope> Walex, right, so I'll test with my specific workload
1185[14:07:36] <Lope> Okay, will start with 8K for shits.
1186[14:08:07] <Walex> ratrace: thart is well expressed.
1187[14:08:26] <ratrace> however, the way mdadm works, it is my experience, maybe biased, that it's PID related. btrfs definitely is PID related (single PID will NOT balance and engage multiple disks on >1 async depth)
1191[14:10:29] <Walex> ratrace: IIRC MDRAID is not PID related but the block subsystem and elevators may introduce similar behaviour.
1192[14:11:27] <kline> libera.chat is open btw
1193[14:11:45] <ratrace> yeah I did not dig deeper, just observing differences between mdadm+ext4, btrfs and zfs on same 2-way raid0 and 2-wide raid1 examples
1194[14:11:51] <qrpnxz> did you guys see the global ann from jess?
1196[14:11:59] <ratrace> (the other way around, 2-way raid1, 2-wide raid0)
1197[14:12:48] <ratrace> qrpnxz: so it seems the Fat Lady is gurgling holy water and doing final vocal exercises before climbing the stage....
1198[14:13:04] <Walex> Lope: this is a discussion of chunk size and latency: replaced-url
1199[14:13:14] <qrpnxz> lmao sorry geez
1200[14:13:18] <ratrace> whoops that ..... came out wrong. that was in relation to previous "ain't over until the fat lady sings" commentary about Freenode death
1201[14:13:28] <qrpnxz> kline, thx
1202[14:13:50] <qrpnxz> ah ok :)
1203[14:14:46] <ratrace> time to wipe out the nickserv profile .... see y'all on OFTC when this one implodes
1262[15:06:41] <sappheiros> goodbye >_> since official debian is on OFTC
1263[15:06:51] <sappheiros> thanks for your help
1264[15:06:52] <ratrace> OFTC is OFTC, Debian has official channels on OFTC; this on FReenode is unofficially official; libera.chat is supposedly a fork of Freenode by ops who are resigning now en masse
1346[15:44:24] <shtrb|work> ratrace : -ChanServ- [#debian] Welcome to #Debian. This is a discussion channel; if you have a question about Debian GNU/Linux, ask and we will try our best to answer it. Newcomers should read the channel's guidelines by typing "/msg dpkg guidelines". Please do not paste in the channel; use #flood instead. Thank you.
1370[15:52:12] <imMute> shtrb|work: irc.libera.chat is the IRC network. libera.chat seems to be using GitHub Pages' CDN, which honestly isn't a terrible idea until they get server sponsors sorted out
1371[15:52:12] *** Quits: kopiyka (~user@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1372[15:52:35] <shtrb|work> Oh that explain why I can't connect :D
1373[15:52:43] <ratrace> imMute: no the actual IP address of the IRC server is in Github's ASN
1465[16:45:50] <Strum> one webpage says they couldn't get it to run either and I also found a forum post saying they had the same error with no replies
1466[16:46:16] <Strum> othanks anyway ratrace
1467[16:46:39] <ratrace> Strum: seen the linuxbabe article?
1468[16:46:46] <Strum> yes
1469[16:46:55] <ratrace> then I have nothing more to add, sorry :)
1480[16:48:27] <jelly> it's a debug tool showing system calls. Need to install it first. if you're doing it for the first time ever you're probably not going to figure out much
1509[17:03:38] <LunarAgent> LunarIRC (irc.lunarirc.net) - the friendliest IRC network around + free BNCs! We welcome retrogamers, coders and wizards. Drop by, feel at home, create and re-create channels and enjoy your stay! LunarAgent, over and out.
1523[17:10:12] <aecalaz> Hi! I have a problem with the video drive. Using i915 firmware on Debian Buster and kernel 4.19.0-16. Using chrome mainly, but also using gnome-shell. The error message on dmesg is "[drm] GPU HANG: ecode 7:0:0x...."; i saw this error on other distros (Ubuntu and Fedora). I tried upgrading the kernel; but it failed. Some idea about it?
1527[17:11:37] <sney> aecalaz: there are some parameters you can pass to i915 to change behavior, some are for working around specific gpu quirks and may help you. see the list of parms at the bottom of 'modinfo i915'
1528[17:11:53] <sney> however, if it happens with any kernel in any distro it might also be a hardware defect.
1532[17:13:13] <sney> there are some more details here as well. replaced-url
1533[17:13:37] <ratrace> Strum: snap is a containerized software package manager like flatpak. snapstore is the (only) central hub for it.
1534[17:14:18] <ratrace> Strum: for software that's not regularly packaged as .deb in the repos, installing via snap or flatpak is a very good and functional alternative to installing random tarballs manually
1535[17:14:43] <aecalaz> @sney thanks; I had this problem before, on a different computer... and works correctly under Windows and FreeBSD.
1536[17:14:43] <aecalaz> This computer was working perfectly with Ubuntu a week ago; I switched it to Debian and the problem persists. I'll check that info!
1537[17:14:46] <aecalaz> Thanks again!
1538[17:15:10] <sney> np
1539[17:15:22] <Strum> i'll have a look at it i guess, thanks ratrace
1577[17:34:12] <Strum> was expecting to get flamed and called a n00b for asking
1578[17:35:14] <ratrace> nah. we only flame questions that are hyper-lazy-i-couldn't-even-bother-to-ask-google :) understanding snaps is a bit more involved ;))
1579[17:35:19] <Strum> was using arch before debian
1580[17:35:37] <Strum> and got a lot of that sort of reaction in their channel
1660[18:34:52] <GenTooMan> chat not check sigh my hands are doing other things :D
1661[18:35:33] <ddsys> or libera?
1662[18:36:04] *** Quits: dselect (~dselect@replaced-ip) (Quit: ouch... that hurt)
1663[18:37:22] <somiaj> !oftc move
1664[18:37:22] <dpkg> irc.debian.org moved to OFTC on June 4th 2006, see replaced-url
1665[18:38:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1031
1666[18:38:17] <somiaj> Debian's offical irc network is oftc, and has been for some time. This channel is the only one left here to provide users support.
1668[18:38:32] <cybrNaut> how might i list all debian packages that I installed, but filter out all the dependencies that installed automatically as a result of my command? "dpkg -l" lists /all/ pkgs and the manpage only shows how to filter by name
1669[18:38:33] <ratrace> just reg'd and enabled cert SASL for OFTC.
1681[18:43:57] <somiaj> aptitude search '~i !~M' -- also works, and once you are on bullseye (apt 2.0), you can use search flags with apt list '~i !~M'
1693[18:47:18] <teratorn> somiaj: I'm not sure what version that is, but it's probably newer, and probably yes it would suite my needs. I just like to be on latest release of plasma, which isn't always easy unless you're on ubuntu PPAs
1694[18:47:22] <somiaj> unixbsd: please keep your off topic noise to yourself, that isn't debian support.
1695[18:47:39] <teratorn> what is in debian 10.9 would probably suite my needs too...
1696[18:47:41] <somiaj> teratorn: bullseye is almost ready to be released (next month or two), for a desktop system it is reasonable to upgrade to.
1697[18:47:47] <unixbsd> stats showd that tthe linux poppulation uses at 70-80 pct Ubuntu, especially developers.
1700[18:48:15] <ratrace> 98.67% of statistics is made up on the spot
1701[18:48:22] <somiaj> teratorn: You can upgarde now, though there are a few rc-bugs left and slow security support until the release actually happens. For a desktop system it is reaonsable and many are already using it.
1702[18:49:03] <unixbsd> ratrace: the rule of stats, higher n, the most accurate.
1703[18:49:04] *** wyatt8750 is now known as wyatt8740
1704[18:49:04] <somiaj> teratorn: so if you want a newer kde now, upgrading isn't unreasonable (though it isn't offically released yet, but it has been frozen for a while). Or you could just make do with 10.9 until the release then upgrade then.
1713[18:53:06] <teratorn> well I probably won't miss anything major
1714[18:54:03] <somiaj> teratorn: Yea, debian stable is a frozen release, and part of its stability is not tracking upstream. I know some who just run testing/sid to try to keep up to date (though there is still a lag to create the debian packages).
1717[18:55:10] <somiaj> teratorn: Note that debian's philosophy isn't to provide newest software in its stable releases, but to provide frozen well tested software. Something to consider when choosing a distro. You could also choose to just build it yourself from upstream, though here again, desktops are big collections of code and this takes a lot of work (hence why there is a lag even in unstable to get the newer kde)
1718[18:55:57] <somiaj> teratorn: note running testing/unstable too has its issues, I use to run sid, but now only stable, as I find I don't really need shiny new stuff
1719[18:56:01] <teratorn> yeah, that is a TON of C++ etc to compile :/ and I have no idea just how much tweaking of upstream is done in debian package patches
1721[18:57:21] <unixbsd> tthe kde libs are quite dirty, you cannot compile modern QT like that., apt-get install * and run ; automake ;) joke
1722[18:58:00] <somiaj> teratorn: well my suggestion is just use the version in debian stable, and about every 2 years get to upgrade. Or maybe run stable for most of its release then near the end upgrade to testing as it starts to freeze and just deal with limited security support.
1723[18:58:06] <teratorn> yeah, generally I prefer the older, stable, more-well-tested releases of most software... but I /like/ Plasma, and so prefer to be on latest release :/ if only to make bug reporting more relevant
1724[18:58:37] <somiaj> teratorn: yea, desktops are just very big and have a messy dependency tree. I haven't seen them backported to stable.
1725[18:58:38] <unixbsd> QT was commercial and is still commercial. it is not made to be nice code, but to give a nice desktop
1726[18:59:09] <unixbsd> QT 1 was easy to compile in comparison. See artic
1796[19:56:33] <queip> cp: oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again? oops IO error! what if I try again?
1797[19:56:41] <queip> mc copy: oops IO error! ok moving on, lmao
1846[20:28:27] <cybrNaut> I cloned my drive. The UUIDs are different (which is expected when using rsync to mirror). I ran "chroot /stagingmirror grub-mkconfig" then "chroot /stagingmirror update-grub"
1847[20:28:40] <cybrNaut> when it boots, GRUB still looks for the old UUID
1848[20:29:02] <ratrace> cybrNaut: did you prepare the chroot with appropriate mounts?
1849[20:29:35] <cybrNaut> but when I look in /stagingmirror/boot/grub/grub.cfg, the UUIDs are correct (no mention of the old UUID)
1850[20:29:53] <cybrNaut> ratrace: yeah.. did the rbind mounts
1851[20:30:09] <ratrace> sounds like you missed some. do you have a separate /boot?
1852[20:30:31] <cybrNaut> e.g. for i in /run /tmp; do mount --bind $i /stagingmirror$i; done && for i in /dev /proc /sys; do mount --rbind $i /stagingmirror$i; done
1873[20:36:50] <ratrace> cybrNaut: I'm not 100% sure if install-grub doesn't also prime the stage1 for location of /boot/grub/grub.cfg to use; so you might want to do the grub-install from the chroot as well
1874[20:36:54] <cybrNaut> i remove the original drive, so the target drive is the sole drive in the machine.
1879[20:38:52] <Oberon> okay this isn't explicitly Debian related, but... does anyone know what key combinations you use on Putty to send a literal 0x0D, 0x0A, and 0x1A characters? Those are carriage return, new line, and (sub), whatever that is
1880[20:38:53] <cybrNaut> this process actually worked for me, but then I later had to re-rsync. I repeated the process in my notes. Not sure why i'm getting this problem now, but according to my notes i never ran grub-install within chroot
1881[20:38:54] *** Quits: Night-Shade (~TimF@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1882[20:40:32] <ratrace> cybrNaut: okay so to be clear, what exactly you mean by "grub still looks for the old UUID" ... stage1 loader is looking for config, OR rootfs's UUID?
1883[20:41:04] <jhutchins> Oberon: What platform are you running putty on?
1901[20:50:01] <Oberon> Okay, I think I need to look at the actual packets here, what's the packet capture tool whose name I should be able to remember but can't because it's been like 15 years?
1905[20:51:32] <ratrace> and you can save to a file with -w and analyze later with wireshark (or you can use wireshark on teh same machine)
1906[20:51:44] *** Quits: prahou (shvehlav@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1907[20:52:07] <Oberon> thanks
1908[20:52:24] <ratrace> Oberon: but uh... if that's over ssh, you won't see anything in the packets. ssh is encrypted unless you use the null cipher thingy
1910[20:52:49] <Oberon> it's not, it's plain unencrypted HTTP on port 80
1911[20:52:59] <cybrNaut> ratrace: when grub boots, it gives an error like drive <old UUID> not found
1912[20:53:05] <Oberon> I can see the error log but that's not showing me exactly how the request is malformed, just that it's bad
1913[20:53:26] <Oberon> I'm writing some code that's going to run on a cellular modem, so it's like...
1914[20:53:35] <Oberon> ...yeah
1915[20:53:51] <Oberon> gotta look at the actual packets to figure out what's wrong, apparently
1916[20:54:04] <ratrace> what kind of low level stuff are you even doing there for http?
1917[20:54:18] <cybrNaut> ratrace: and i find that bizarre, because when i examine /boot/../grub.cfg, there is no mention of the old UUID
1918[20:54:21] <Oberon> making a.... thing... that will...
1919[20:54:27] <Oberon> it's complicated
1920[20:54:49] <Oberon> in the end there will be a piece of hardware that's small and has an embedded cellular modem which will interact with a server via HTTP
1921[20:55:03] *** Parts: ricorambo (~rico@replaced-ip) ("Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients")
1922[20:55:28] <ratrace> Oberon: there's small http libraries even in C
1923[20:56:03] <ratrace> cybrNaut: can you post the _exact_ verbiage or imgur a screenshot?
1924[20:56:14] <Oberon> I'm sure, but I don't know how to get one of those libraries onto this piece of hardware
1925[20:56:24] <Oberon> or if it's even possible
1926[20:56:30] <cybrNaut> ratrace: i'll work on that.. will take some time
1951[21:08:07] <cybrNaut> ratrace: yes. It's short, so i'll just type it. Exact output is: "error: no such device: 12345-..." \n "error: unknown filesystem." \n "Entering rescue mode..." \n "grub rescue> _"
1956[21:09:46] <cybrNaut> i have no idea what could cause it to look for the old UUID because that UUID does not appear in /boot/grub/grub.cfg of the new target
1957[21:10:23] <alkisg> cybrNaut: I just glanced at the last lines so I might be out of topic, but grub also checks the UUIDs of /etc/fstab
1984[21:16:36] <ratrace> cybrNaut: so that looks like inability to find /boot .. the UUID in question is of the /boot filesystem?
1985[21:17:20] <ratrace> cybrNaut: is there EFI involved or is this purely a legacy boot (gpt or mbr?)?
1986[21:18:47] <cybrNaut> ratrace: the UUID it looks for is /boot of the previous filesystem. But /boot/grub/grub.cfg correctly references the UUID of the new /boot
2000[21:22:43] <somiaj> Achylles: I'm unsure on the current state of what is happeneing (and maybe nothing will become of this), but it could be that debian just no longer has channels on any network except oftc (not clear idea yet, and it really depends on how this all pans out)
2001[21:23:18] <cybrNaut> the partition table is a GPT partition table, which /normally/ only works on UEFI, but I created a bios partition which makes it possible to use GPT on a BIOS machine
2002[21:23:44] <cybrNaut> actually it's a partition of type "bios boot"
2007[21:24:38] <somiaj> but you can always find debian channels (and many more than just #debian), on the offical network irc.oftc.net (which is what irc.debian.net points at)
2008[21:24:50] <cybrNaut> run this to see what i mean => sfdisk --label gpt -T | grep -i bios.boot
2009[21:24:52] <ratrace> cybrNaut: so you mean you have GPT _layout_ and among GPT partitions there's the bios_grub one (required for grub on GPT), the /boot one and the root fs?
2010[21:24:59] <BlueMatt> as someone with personal experience with the new freenode owners outside of irc,.....yea run away
2015[21:25:51] <cybrNaut> ratrace: that's right, plus a 4th for swap
2016[21:25:58] <ratrace> cybrNaut: and the old disk is nowhere physically present on the system?
2017[21:26:09] <Achylles> somiaj, ok. But, I like this one. That's why I asked...
2018[21:26:09] <somiaj> BlueMatt: freenode survived the crisis that almost disolved it in 2006, so I wouldn't jump the gun too quickly, I'm of the opinion to just wait and see what happens.
2019[21:26:14] *** Quits: Jerrynicki (~niklas@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020[21:26:19] <cybrNaut> that's right.. i removed the old drive
2021[21:26:22] <somiaj> Achylles: a lot of the users (espically the ops) are in both.
2022[21:26:48] <somiaj> Achylles: though oftc isn't as populated, it has a lot of good users and many of the main helpers you'll see on oftc as well as here.
2023[21:27:11] <ratrace> cybrNaut: well that doesn't make sense... unless grub-install bakes in the location of /boot
2024[21:27:20] *** Quits: Oberon (~Oberon@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2031[21:28:38] <ratrace> cybrNaut: yes, but like I said I don't know if it also bakes in it the location of /boot, or taht's 100% autodetection by stage1 . in which case, there HAS to be traces of the old /boot somehwere on the drive physically which the stage1 finds first
2043[21:31:13] <lenswipe> got a broken debian system here im trying to reapir.
2044[21:31:32] <lenswipe> before i do that, i want to backup my cron jobs so I want to try and view (not edit, just view) where they live at rest on disk.
2045[21:31:42] <lenswipe> I've looked in /var/spool/ and there's no cron folder
2046[21:31:46] <lenswipe> open to any other suggestions
2047[21:31:49] *** adminn is now known as zeroed
2048[21:31:55] <ratrace> cybrNaut: you can use `strings` on it, yes
2049[21:32:13] <ratrace> assuming it's stored as ascii string
2050[21:32:14] <mentor> Does the BIOS actually understand GPT?
2051[21:32:18] <cybrNaut> well, i grep'd the bios boot partition for the old UUID and no hit.. but that doesn't mean it's not there.. it could be encoded/compressed
2052[21:33:06] <ratrace> cybrNaut: but just to be 100% sure, did you re-try grub-install from _within_ the chroot?
2053[21:33:11] *** Quits: Christian75 (~Christian@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2054[21:33:29] <cybrNaut> ratrace: i'll try that now
2056[21:34:28] <cybrNaut> it stands to reason that that could be the issue (that i ran it outside of chroot). My notes don't say to run it in chroot, but maybe my notes are wrong
2057[21:34:28] <ratrace> mentor: what do you mean? like, if it's too old for GPT?
2058[21:35:33] <ratrace> cybrNaut: I've made hundreds of installations on servers, I use a custom ansible and saltstack deployment scripts with deboostrap, and always used grub-install from within the chroot, so I don't know what would happen if you tried from outside
2059[21:35:46] <mentor> A BIOS boot GPT partition was mentioned, but not if a compatibility MBR was written for it or something
2061[21:36:37] *** Quits: mezzo (~mezzo@replaced-ip) (Quit: leaving)
2062[21:37:18] <ratrace> protective mbr should be done by grub-install afaik
2063[21:37:34] *** Quits: Noisytoot (~noisytoot@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2064[21:37:43] <cybrNaut> ratrace: what i suspect happened is perhaps i ran grub-install from within the chroot the 1st time when shit worked, for good measure in addition to running it outside of chroot.. and I may not have noted that I did that possibly critical step. I'll know in a few min.. i'm off to reboot now
2077[21:47:16] <cybrNaut> I had to run grub-install from within chroot to ensure the bios boot partition had a pointer to the UUID of the correct /boot
2261[22:45:35] <ax562> ratrace reason I was asking. was thinking most would jump ship.
2262[22:46:03] <ratrace> ax562: I'm not sticking around on the Andrewnet on principle
2263[22:46:31] <cybrNaut> suppose i partition a drive manually with LUKS partitions, some using keys and one using a password. Will the Debian installer give me a chance to enter the password to mount the encrypted partition, and then skip the partitioning step?
2264[22:46:36] <EdePopede> a mass leave would be nice while the new dude is online
2269[22:47:29] <ratrace> cybrNaut: the partitioning step is still used, you select existing ones (you manually managed) to point at rootfs, boot, etc....
2270[22:47:44] <ratrace> cybrNaut: that'd be manual partitioning step tho
2271[22:47:48] <imMute> EdePopede: the (now former) staff regaining control of the domain names would be even nicer.
2272[22:48:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1016
2273[22:48:03] <ratrace> imMute: hear hear. but eh...
2274[22:48:08] <EdePopede> that's why i'll stay here for the moment...
2275[22:49:02] <cybrNaut> EdePopede: i haven't read about the drama.. why is the new ownership getting hate?
2276[22:49:24] <EdePopede> this one has a lot of extra links replaced-url
2277[22:49:52] <cybrNaut> ratrace: will it ask for password or keys for existing encrypted partitions?
2278[22:50:10] <ratrace> cybrNaut: no, you must unlock them first, if you manually prepared the LUKS containers
2279[22:50:23] <ratrace> it _will_ detect the mapped devices and offer them to point at rootfs
2375[23:58:18] <sney> lenswipe: are you sure you are using the right /dev node for your root filesystem? on my laptop it is not /dev/mapper/crypt but a different name under /dev/mapper that includes the hostname