244[05:44:04] <ASDX> was discussing upgrades recently here. multiple people mentioned using "apt upgrade" over the other options. was that because I was talking about addressing security updates or is that the most common upgrade command?? i see that it only upgrades currently-installed packages which i think is safer but are you like to be upgraded to a point release with that command (guessing it WILL change that if it upgrades packages
245[05:44:04] <ASDX> including the package that sets that version, right?)? "apt dis-upgrade" and "apt full-upgrade" look to have more risk as they may install new packages one may not need (reading good post here: replaced-url
264[06:02:10] <jmcnaught> ASDX: have you read the man pages for those commands? "apt upgrade" can install new packages too. If a package is updated to require a new package, then you probably need that package so I wouldn't worry that much. Ultimately you need to trust your distro or why use it?
265[06:02:34] *** Quits: j7k6 (~j7k6@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
267[06:02:55] *** Quits: Filohuhum_ (~filohuhum@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
268[06:03:10] <ASDX> jmcnaught: i trust the distro, just not me, so trying to find the best command to use consistently for upgrades (i've come from RHEL/CentOS)
269[06:03:43] <sney> the command you run by default should be apt upgrade.
271[06:04:03] <sney> if anything gets stuck or looks weird, you can try with full-upgrade. don't use -y, always read apt's list of packages to change, yadda yadda
272[06:04:17] <ASDX> sney: cool, noted
273[06:04:22] <sney> (full-upgrade and dist-upgrade are aliases, they do the same thing)
276[06:16:10] <Rodon> how to do fsck if system unable to boot giving filesystem error . i have to fix this by running fsck /dev/sda. .. can i do that without live image? i tried grub commands ..but didnt find initramfs/fsck ..to start..
295[06:38:43] <somiaj> though fsck is often ran automatically at boot, so maybe you have more damage than that. I personally like live images just find it easier to deal with issues while not running from the filesystem.
311[06:48:44] <somiaj> seems you can add a fsck.mode=force or fsck.repair=yes as a boot parameter (wonder if this uses initrd), but as mentioned is probably safest to use a live system
312[06:49:08] <Rodon> actually it happened this way... last week i fixed my friends machine (buster) using a live kalilinux cd (only that was available)..and it led me to reboot with initramfs prompt where i fsck /dev/sda3 and system got repaired in a minute ..!! so now i think whether that cant be that possible if i dont have any live image..
313[06:51:22] <Rodon> somiaj: thanks..for clue..i would check that..!!
314[06:51:31] <somiaj> yea initramfs has fsck in it (at least here), so maybe that boot parameter will run fsck before mounting there are also ways to force yourself into the initramfs debushell
335[07:25:20] <ASDX> impressed that the services that were running and upgraded are restarted during the "apt upgrade". probably best practice to reboot the server still (even if var/run/reboot-required is empty)?
336[07:26:05] <ASDX> oh, woops, the /var/run/reboot-required file existing means a reboot is required
361[07:52:13] *** Quits: mortderi1 (~mortderir@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
362[07:52:21] <Rodon> for systemD there had lots of debate in debian earlier ..dont know what their stand for future..
363[07:53:06] <alkisg> systemd doesn't automatically restart services. Debian postinsts do that. If a newer openssh-server package fixes security issues, and can restart the service without disrupting existing connections, of course it's a good thing to restart it then...
364[07:53:13] <unixbsd> Rodon: well, debian and linux is tightly bound to corporations, the more control the better, so systemd and wayland will stay for sure.
365[07:53:23] <Rodon> devuan already stands a protest-distro. lots of systemd haters i see ..
366[07:53:29] <unixbsd> Rodon: Even now, Microsoft starts activities to take over more and more.
367[07:53:47] <unixbsd> Rodon: systemd is a junk.... my advise : use netbsd .
368[07:53:57] <somiaj> unixbsd: please take it elsewhere
369[07:54:11] <somiaj> ASDX: there are ways to reload a kernel without restarting, though I'm unsure on the details.
385[08:04:31] <jim> somiaj, jelly, solved the mystery of the uname that returned only x86_64, turned out the OP had put a script to temporarily replace uname, for some debugging purpose
389[08:05:07] <somiaj> jim: hence why my suggestion of using a full path can help debug, but in the future you should send people here, support through a middle man is difficult.
391[08:06:15] <oxek> full path might not help, I've seen people do `mv /usr/bin/someexecutable{,.old}` and put something else in its place
392[08:06:37] <oxek> and it's a very evil thing to do
393[08:06:49] * alkisg does `debsums -s` to check against that, in some cases...
394[08:07:48] <somiaj> oxek: ugg, those people need to understand $PATH.
395[08:08:10] <somiaj> though I sometimes forget I put custom scripts in ~/bin/, hence I have to remind myself to use which or try full paths from time to time.
396[08:08:15] <somiaj> I don't do it that often though.
397[08:08:24] <alkisg> Sometimes it's necessary, as there are programs that run other programs using a hardcoded path, /usr/bin/xxx; dpkg-divert is better than mv in that case
403[08:10:42] <unixbsd> there is ~/bin/ /usr/local/bin and /usr/bin mostly. bash will save the env at start. ksh is bit lighter for that, and more comfortable for use executable.
488[09:26:53] <jelly> ban them by $a:c4pt00 as well, then
489[09:27:07] <jelly> nickserv account
490[09:27:21] <Wulf> Good Morning! Where can I find the minimal kernel version required for debian 9,10,11? I've got an OpenVZ (?) server where I cannot upgrade the kernel.
491[09:27:43] <jelly> Wulf, usually this is documented somewhere in the release notes
492[09:27:57] <jelly> for each release, separately
533[10:02:21] <jelly> oops. Anyhow, you'll have some other kernel requirements for systemd as well, starting from Debian 8 so it's probably documented there
534[10:02:51] <jelly> if you already have Debian 8 running in that environment you're probably safe
569[10:24:50] <ratrace> Wulf: but you asked about running a minimal kernel. If that's OpenVZ guest, your kernel package doesn't matter. It's not used. It's not run.
570[10:25:16] <ratrace> That's why I don't understand what you want to achieve here, as it doesn't matter what your kernel package is, inside the guest
571[10:25:32] <Wulf> ratrace: but there is a kernel version (3.10.0) running. And I wanted to know the minimal required kernel to run debian 9 or 10. Debian 10 needs 3.2, so it should be fine.
573[10:26:31] <ratrace> Wulf: I see. Are you sure about 3.2? As jelly suggested, systemd is very finnicky about the underlaying kernel and its features
574[10:27:00] <Wulf> ratrace: there's no systemd running
575[10:27:05] <ratrace> besides, regardless of the kernel, if you have the possibility I'd very much advise you to migrate away from OpenVZ tech
576[10:27:27] <Wulf> ratrace: I definitely should...
577[10:28:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1018
578[10:28:09] <ratrace> If you're looking for "cheap", there's "cheap" KVM hosts. if you're looking for containerized "virtualization" specifically, I don't know of any but there could be LXC/LXD based hosters
579[10:28:29] <ratrace> but you'd be in a very similar pickle as with OpenVZ, so if you can, look out for KVM hosts
580[10:30:18] <Wulf> I just don't find the time to migrate away the services that are running on that server
581[10:32:48] <ratrace> Wulf: btw, which init system are you using there? openrc?
622[11:06:55] <ratrace> ubuntu has a specific release date. debian does not. debian has "roughly" when it starts freezing (so far it's been cca 2 years between releases), and then it releases when the release critical bugs drop to zero
623[11:07:42] *** Quits: Vizva (~Vizva@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
645[11:28:46] <TimTahler> Hi..., i am using old Debian (Squeeze) is there a way other than upgrading in order to use firefox 77 ? or maybe an alternative browser that would display websites properly ...
652[11:32:41] <jelly> TimTahler, but you'd need to upgrade the whole system couple times to get up to date with debian's packaging of firefox-esr. Debian 6->7, then 7->8, 8->9, 9->10
677[11:58:57] <TimTahler> We need some spirit ..., more than we need technological development...., but people like to be the tip of the ice-berg..., always on the very edge of development..., and it was written that "Debian Gnu/Linux" was not the distribution of choice if someone would like to use the latest technology in computation... i think it was "DistroWatch" ..., is there a Debian Core of people that still using old old software.., and especially like
683[12:05:10] *** Joins: eduardas (~eduardas@replaced-ip)
684[12:05:13] <TheBigK> im confused why someone would stay with a debian that doesnt get any updates anymore and still wanting to browse the internet.. sounds dangerous to me...
685[12:05:44] <TheBigK> for an airgap computer ... i could understand... but for something connected to the internet... sounds scary
686[12:06:07] * TimTahler TheBigK is pulling some triggers....
687[12:07:40] <TheBigK> nah... i just want to understand whats the rational behind it.. if its something specific... i rly wanna understand...
688[12:08:45] * TimTahler TheBigK has a message...
689[12:10:01] *** Quits: dselect (~dselect@replaced-ip) (Quit: ouch... that hurt)
690[12:10:13] <alkisg> topoi_: it's complicated, there are md5sums but they're not enough, so ucf was introduced... check replaced-url
696[12:11:48] *** Quits: cosimone (~user@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
697[12:13:00] <Deano59> can you not PM TimTahler, thanks.
698[12:13:02] <jelly> * TimTahler TheBigK has a message... # hey TimTahler, something in your irc client seems to be doing /me actions, not sure if it's automatic or you're doing it intentionally
791[13:54:13] <kats99> I have Slackware as guest os in Virtualbox and for kernel 4.4.14 I was able to install the modules. Now I compiled 5.10.34 and I ran VBoxLinuxAdditions but it says modprobe vboxguest failed
792[13:54:24] <TimTahler> yann1: i am noob, but did you try "file snap" , is the cpu arch right ?
804[14:00:04] <petn-randall> TimTahler: And what would you do with those users?
805[14:01:15] <petn-randall> !ask
806[14:01:15] <dpkg> If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on replaced-url
807[14:02:49] <ratrace> yann1: specific snaps are not supported here. you'll have to talk to their vendor.
808[14:03:46] *** Quits: ecsim (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
809[14:04:06] <jelly> petn-randall, I hope he'd send cake.
816[14:07:28] <jelly> TimTahler, so if you have a question about making stuff work on some horribly old Debian, ask it. If it's the same question you initially had, about running a recent Firefox build on squeeze, you got some answers for that and you haven't answered a technical question.
844[14:36:22] <inbe4> Hello! So, I havepretty new hardware, which requirs recent Mesa, and Debian stable does not have that, not even through backports. Is it safe to upgrade to Bullseye now? Are there any disadvantages?
845[14:37:39] <ratrace> inbe4: it's still testing, with release critical bugs. that said, it's soft-frozen, which means bugfix mode with likely no further breaking changes
846[14:37:45] <ratrace> also:
847[14:37:47] <ratrace> !debian-next
848[14:37:47] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also replaced-url
856[14:41:34] <sappheiros> Does Debian also have issues like these? as frequently? replaced-url
857[14:41:51] <jelly> inbe4, if you have new hardware you might as well go install bullseye now and see how it works. If you have an old installation with buster, sure, a release upgrade is an option
858[14:42:16] <inbe4> sigint: Cool! I read that might be some issues with security updates in testing (That they hit testing very late) Don't remember where i read it though
859[14:42:26] <jelly> dpkg, tell sappheiros about tracker of doom
862[14:43:30] <inbe4> jelly: I run Ubuntu now, but I really want to go with Debian instead. So I should be fine with bullseye? I see that there are a relese candidate for the installer, nice!
866[14:45:51] <ratrace> inbe4: the "issues" are basically that testing does not receive security backports like Stable. that means, a vulnerability in Testing will get fixed by virtue of that entire package getting an upgraded version from sid, which can be days, weeks or maybe even months after the fact.
868[14:47:23] <inbe4> ratrace: Yes that makes sense. I will give Bullseye a go. When Bullseye becomes stable, I guess i don't have to do anything?
869[14:47:36] <inbe4> My testing-install will suddenly be stable :D
870[14:47:50] <jelly> correct
871[14:48:08] <ratrace> inbe4: if you use proper release name, "bullseye" instead of "testing", in apt sources .. which you should anyway .. then yes, it'll transparently just "become" stable as Bullseye transitions from testing to stable
872[14:48:12] <jelly> bullseye will be bullseye
873[14:49:41] <inbe4> ratrace: Yes, the sources says bullseye main nonfree ... etc
875[14:50:55] <sappheiros> jelly: basically seems absurd to have so many updates and so many security flaws
876[14:51:03] <sappheiros> so i was wondering if all major OS were like this
877[14:51:05] <sappheiros> or all feature-rich OS
878[14:51:23] <inbe4> I like the fact that Debian is so flexible with that, if my hardware requires it, I can jump to the next release and then stay on it as it becomes stable
886[14:54:56] <ratrace> sappheiros: I am not unfortunately.
887[14:54:58] *** Quits: matrixbot_bartab (~matrixbot@replaced-ip) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
888[14:55:02] <sappheiros> nowhere is safe!!! (cries under mattress)
889[14:55:38] <sappheiros> "sync_repl NULL pointer dereference in sync_create_state_control()" what does this even mean ......
890[14:55:55] *** Quits: Filohuhum (~filohuhum@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
891[14:56:05] <ratrace> "linux is good at spotting them" ... except when it's not. notable examples: heartbleed. and many of the kernel vulns that are found (many) years after the fact
892[14:56:33] <ratrace> all software sucks. all software should be considered hostile and security built in layers around that fact.
898[14:57:38] <inbe4> ratrace: As Greg kroah Hartman said: "Software barely works "
899[14:57:46] <ratrace> yea
900[14:59:07] <sappheiros> "Greg Kroah-Hartman is a major Linux kernel developer. As of April 2013 he is the Linux kernel maintainer for the -stable branch, the staging subsystem, USB, driver core, debugfs, kref, kobject, and the sysfs kernel subsystems, Userspace I/O, and TTY layer. [In his free time he enjoys hahaha what free time?!]"
902[15:00:37] <ratrace> GKH is also a politician and would gladly backport political patches into stable branches in total violation of stable backports policies, just to drive a political point. he's also an avid hater of zfs and will not hesitate to subvert it whenever possible.
903[15:01:40] <sappheiros> o_o what
904[15:02:11] *** Quits: ecsim (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
908[15:02:45] <ratrace> it's not GPL licensed, even though it's DFSG compliant and open source by all definitions. it's just not "GPL" kind of "libre".
909[15:03:04] <sappheiros> i don't see political stuff at replaced-url
910[15:03:53] <ratrace> here, he sounds like a butthurt child who finally, after many years, even though he's grown up now, has a chance to stick it back to a ..... company that no longer exists: replaced-url
912[15:04:21] <ratrace> sappheiros: by political I mean backports and code changes that serve NO functional purpose, except licensing "compliance" and politicking.
915[15:05:29] <ratrace> "their code to work properly" ...... lolno, Greg. It's "our" code. World's code. It's open, free for everyone to use within license terms that are not too different from GPL. I guess he simply fails to understand what open source means.
916[15:06:06] <ratrace> (and that linux can only benefit, in any way imaginable, from supporting such a great filesystem)
924[15:09:27] <ratrace> alkisg: except, no. it's one thing to not accept ZFS into the main tree because licensing issues, that's okay. Understood. but it is NOT okay for a prominent kernel dev to go out of his way to DISABLE a third party module, that's not part of the tree and does NOT in any way violate that tree's license
927[15:10:09] <alkisg> ratrace: I agree on that part, "out of his way to disable..." isn't really beneficial. They won't convince them that way.
928[15:10:22] <ratrace> who the F is GKH and why does he think he has the right to tell me which code I will or will not compile along with the kernel on my machines; code that I do not distribute as GPL ONLY pertains to code distribution, NOT usage in the privacy of your own machine.
930[15:10:56] <sappheiros> ratrace: licensing matters for at least two reasons, right? 1) it's a social contract to maintain libertarian society; without them anarchy fosters selfishness. 2) to maintain survival against profit-oriented enterprises. Yes?
933[15:11:55] <ratrace> and again .... ZFS is not violating any license. this is not about inclusion in the mainstream kernel. again, that part and licensing incompatibility is understood and accepted.
934[15:13:08] *** Quits: JohnML (~john1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
935[15:13:17] <sappheiros> does Windows or macOS use this ZFS?
941[15:14:08] <ratrace> zfs is regularly packaged in debian. it is dfsg compliant.
942[15:14:21] <sappheiros> this is confusing ... so it looks like Ubuntu is using it, contrary to some licensing, and they're not being sued because the people with money don't care?
943[15:14:29] <ratrace> many Linux users use ZFS professionally. my company uses ZFS professionally.
944[15:14:46] <sappheiros> so it's okay to use but it violates a license most don't care about?
945[15:14:50] <ratrace> sappheiros: they're not being sued because it is not violating any licenses.
946[15:15:08] <sappheiros> so you're saying replaced-url
947[15:15:19] <ratrace> GPL and CDDL are incompatible and thus ZFS cannot, in the current licensing state, be included in the main kernel source code tree.
948[15:15:55] <sappheiros> what's the incompatibility? "okay to modify and sell" vs "not okay to sell"?
949[15:15:59] <ratrace> It __CAN__ be built against thekernel on any machine, and so far nobody found a legal reason why it couldn't even be distributed as a precompiled module .. as long as it does not mean distributing the kernel SOURCE with ZFS code embedded
950[15:15:59] *** Quits: sinaowolabi (~Sina@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
951[15:16:11] <ratrace> sappheiros: nothing to do with selling
953[15:16:33] <sappheiros> lol ......... this kinda seems like ...... smart programmers arguing over trivial details
954[15:16:59] *** Quits: igrtrrt (~igrtrrt@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
955[15:17:18] <ratrace> GPL prevents additional constraints in clause 6 iirc. CDDL has some such additional constraints that I cannot name right now off the top of my head, but you can google for comparisons, there are many
956[15:17:38] <jelly> sappheiros, Debian often _looks_ worse because all the security issues are public (except the embargoed ones)
957[15:17:44] <sappheiros> this seems like trapping oneself within a conceptual framework in addition to the computer's mechanical framework
958[15:18:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1040
959[15:18:03] <sappheiros> jelly: what does it mean and why embargo security issues?
960[15:18:04] <ratrace> the differences are literally political nuances as CDDL is very much within the spirit of "Libre" and "Open source" codes, whether you wanna follow RMS strict terminology or a more loose one
961[15:18:15] *** Quits: magic_ninja (~sparkie1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
963[15:18:48] <sappheiros> ratrace: i don't know what you mean by 'political nuances'; to me 'political' means "controversial decisions affecting human society" ...
967[15:19:57] <jelly> sappheiros, when a security issue affects many different vendors, they need to coordinate the date when fixes are released to public. So maybe Microsoft can't release patches for a particular CVE until Debian fixes them.
968[15:20:02] <ratrace> sappheiros: political as in pertaining to policies defined hitherto in respective licenses
969[15:20:19] <jelly> until all vendors are ready, the issue is embargoed
971[15:20:52] <ratrace> unless you're OpenBSD. they don't care about embargoes and will happily release fixes sooner :)
972[15:21:09] <jelly> and then noone tells them, next time
973[15:21:22] <ratrace> sadly, that's the stance some big vendors are taking, yes.
974[15:21:54] <sappheiros> lol jelly you mean the next time a security bug is found they just patch it locally rather than tell others and have to wait to patch it?
975[15:22:26] <jelly> sappheiros, I mean the vendors usually play nice with the other kids, and do not do that
976[15:22:28] <sappheiros> how would you respond to the criticism, "you get what you pay for, thus win/mac > linux"?
977[15:22:34] <sappheiros> is that relevant for safety?
978[15:23:21] <jelly> sappheiros, there's merit in the first part, but the "thus" is not correct
979[15:23:40] <sappheiros> i'm thinking linux > mac/win because privacy. is that a sound argument?
980[15:23:57] <jelly> no, that's all too simplistic
981[15:24:03] <sappheiros> seems no, if one uses facebook or google or any website that tracks for advertising
988[15:26:12] <jelly> that's like coming to #debian and asking which distro is the best
989[15:27:17] <jelly> what answer do you expect from an "It's FOSS" site, "use proprietary tools when it's worth, iOS is the best mobile OS for privacy"??
990[15:27:20] <jhutchins> None of this is Debian Support.
991[15:27:34] <jhutchins> He just wants to argue.
992[15:27:48] <sappheiros> jhutchins: *procrastinate, i suppose >_> and learn
993[15:28:04] <jelly> we have a #debian-offtopic for non-support chat
994[15:28:07] <jhutchins> #debian-offtopic
995[15:29:36] <sappheiros> sorry, i didn't realize somehow this was a support channel. (was thinking "anything related to debian")
1002[15:33:52] <kirk781> The lengths Apple goes to lock people in their platform is quite much. They were planning to bring iMessage but relented because it could damage their user base
1003[15:33:58] *** x5eb is now known as _0x5eb_
1004[15:36:07] <sappheiros> What do you mean 'bring iMessage'?
1005[15:36:36] *** Quits: ecsim (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1009[15:38:21] <kirk781> sappheiros, They had plans to port iMessage to Android and other platforms but relented because it showed that iMessage's exclusivity to Apple only products served as a lock in and urged users to stay in their ecosystem. Porting iMessage will make it easier for users to switch which will hit their user share
1034[15:48:41] *** Quits: ecsim (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1035[15:49:15] <TimTahler> Hmmm, i am trying to download different firefox versions.., and came across this... firefox-45.0b7.sdk.tar.bz2 (135MB) vs. firefox 45.0b7.tar.bz2 (49MB) ... any hints ?
1036[15:50:19] <jelly> TimTahler, why are you downloading horribly old versions of firefox
1037[15:50:30] <jelly> !goal
1038[15:50:30] <dpkg> Describe your goal, not what you think the solution is.
1046[15:53:06] <kirk781> jelly, Between using unsupported versions of Firefox vs Palemoon, the latter is a less shitty choice
1047[15:53:15] *** BillyZane2 is now known as BillyZane
1048[15:54:30] <TheBigK> kirk781: as of previous installation he wants to use a current browser to show websites in a decent fashion without needing to uprgade his debian squeeze system...
1049[15:54:39] <TheBigK> *previous conversations
1050[15:55:19] <kirk781> Huh,Squeeze is quite old.
1051[15:55:38] <TimTahler> especially ebay-captchas dont work any more.., cant log in from this linux , using windows for it.
1052[15:56:31] <petn-randall> Well, squeeze is unsupported for ... 7 years now? Time to upgrade?
1059[15:57:50] <inbe4> Hm, why is Firefox only on version 78 on Bullseye?
1060[15:57:59] <jelly> !firefox-esr
1061[15:57:59] <dpkg> In stable, firefox-esr (Extended Support Release) will be updated to the next release when the old version is no longer supported by Mozilla; this is normally forced by a security update and often breaks many packaged extensions. In testing/unstable firefox-esr is updated after having matured in experimental for a suitable time.
1081[16:04:47] <kirk781> As for unsupported versions of Firefox, I do use an older version of FF on Android though that is because the later versions are not at same feature parity["Tab Queue" thing]
1082[16:04:49] <TimTahler> TheBigK: naaahhh..., i did scrambled eggs some years ago.., but i dont know how to compile...
1083[16:05:16] <TheBigK> TimTahler: then back to the original question... why not upgrading to newer debian versions?
1084[16:05:48] <TimTahler> lol
1085[16:06:30] <TheBigK> TimTahler: u heared already that ur debian version is not supported in any way... why laughing when i ask a legit question
1109[16:25:45] <sigint> inbe4, you can also use the Firefox that is not packaged by Debian and follow the releases from Mozilla just like you would on Windows/MacOS
1137[16:59:24] <inbe4> If I want to start contributing to Debian, eventually becoming a package maintainer would be awesome. Where can I start? I study COmputer Science, and will do so for 5 more years. So I have plenty of free time :)
1181[17:41:23] <petn-randall> inbe4: I don't have any comparison with Arch, but I can also recommend #debian-mentors on irc.debian.org, which are quite a helpful bunch.
1189[17:49:47] <mirko> updated firefox to v88 from sid and for almost half the sites i'm visiting tabs are reproducibly crashing with "basic_string::_M_construct null not valid". Searching the internets doesn't reveal this being a common/known issue. how to follow up on this / narrow it down?
1190[17:50:07] *** edward1 is now known as rabbadabba
1193[17:50:39] <Wulf> mirko: try starting with a fresh profile
1194[17:50:50] <mirko> Wulf: i do already
1195[17:50:54] <mirko> within a ramdisk
1196[17:51:20] <Wulf> mirko: well, it works for me. So must be something with your setup
1197[17:51:41] <Wulf> mirko: what does "updated firefox to v88 from sid" mean? What's the OS on your computer?
1198[17:52:02] <mirko> Running Debian Buster, installed firefox from unstable
1199[17:52:08] <Wulf> mirko: sounds like a bad idea.
1200[17:52:22] <mirko> Wulf: aha?
1201[17:53:00] <mirko> Wulf: if firefox v88 has dependencies not being met by debian/buster they should be referenced
1202[17:53:42] <Wulf> mirko: you could download firefox from mozilla.org insteaad
1203[17:54:09] <petn-randall> !frankendebian
1204[17:54:09] <dpkg> When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall>
1205[17:54:15] <mirko> Wulf: my intention is rather to narrow down and fix the issue rather than downloading 3rd party binaries
1217[17:55:40] <mirko> understood, didn't know such dependency issues aren't considered as actual bugs - thanks for clarifying
1218[17:56:49] <petn-randall> They are; but since firefox (as opposed to firefox-esr) is only packaged for convenience, there never are any upgrade tests done.
1219[17:57:25] <petn-randall> mirko: A better option, if you really want firefox instead of firefox-esr, is to use replaced-url
1220[17:58:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1048
1221[17:58:04] <mirko> got it, i'm still not convinced it's a dependency issue (assuming it's dependening on a fixed/newer libstdc++) - because i'd figure that would be mentioned and easily be found as issue somewhere on the net
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1223[17:58:44] <petn-randall> Oh, seems as though it's not being updated anymore. Probably due to rust issues.
1224[17:59:19] <petn-randall> mirko: Frankendebian is not something that people do often, so I'm not surprised at all.
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1226[17:59:59] <mirko> i did it only for firefox and it was working fine till v87
1280[18:52:18] <dob1> I want to create a script specifyinf an amount of time as argument. that script will run a program (keeping it in foreground) and after this amount of time will kill the program. Any idea to how to do this? I was thinking to use at
1281[18:52:23] *** Joins: person (~poppy@replaced-ip)
1282[18:52:45] <greycat> man 1 timeout
1283[18:53:15] *** person is now known as plankers
1284[18:53:34] <dob1> ah nice!
1285[18:53:44] *** plankers is now known as Guest95892
1286[18:53:58] *** Guest95892 is now known as person
1291[18:56:21] <sney> though if you are delaying command starts/quits because of a race condition, it's better to test for the state you actually need rather than hoping a time delay will be enough.
1402[20:35:05] *** gurmble is now known as grumble
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1404[20:35:34] <jason1234> !debian release
1405[20:35:35] <dpkg> Debian 10 "Buster" was released on 2019-07-06. It is now considered "stable". Ask me about <install debian>, <stretch->buster> to upgrade from Debian 9 "Stretch". See replaced-url
1443[20:42:00] <dpkg> The names of the Debian releases (buzz, rex, woody, ...) are the characters from the "Toy Story" animated movie. Toy Story was released by Pixar November 22nd, 1995; one year later Debian 1.1 was released. Bruce Perens was the <Debian Project Leader> at the time and also worked for Pixar. See replaced-url
1475[20:56:07] <dfcnvt> Greeting, knows any tool or configuration that will split the workspace vertically/horizontally (in any configurable way) in a single monitor? (Or apply both two monitors with many workspace...rather than one workspace for one monitor.
1476[20:57:19] <dfcnvt> For now, I'm interested to have a split of 2x3 workspaces for both of my monitors.
1478[20:57:57] <dfcnvt> Mind you, I don't mean the multi-workspace where I can change to the next desktop (Ctrl+Alt+Up/Down).
1479[20:58:58] <dfcnvt> This is as far as I can find it...but want to know if we have something like this with (assumeably) a build-in to Debian. replaced-url
1480[20:59:10] <jelly> that would mostly be a window manager manipulation to limit some windows only to specific parts of the screen
1485[21:04:19] <dfcnvt> (reading/researching the dwm...)
1486[21:04:37] <alkisg> Will all the "workspaces" belong to the same xorg session / user?
1487[21:09:21] <dfcnvt> I think....window manager may not be what I'm looking for. (I'm not entirely what the window manager do -- is it the same context as gnome?)
1495[21:12:10] <jelly> it's an important part of each desktop environment, but can be a standalone component as well
1496[21:13:24] <dfcnvt> For the sake of understanding my requirement: Currently, I have two physical monitors. And I am looking at two workspaces (one workspace for my left physical monitor and another workspace for my right physical monitor). All good, all fine. If I watch YouTube on my right physical monitor and put up to Full Screen, it'll take over as full screen of my right physical monitor. Now, my requirement/demands
1497[21:13:25] <jelly> tiling WMs optimize placement and management of windows so that absolutely minimum space is wasted. Who needs window BORDERS
1498[21:13:30] <dfcnvt> is this -- create a vertical split of workspace of both physical monitors. It'll end up as 4 separate workspace. And whenever I put YouTube to full screen on my fourth, it'll take over just that space within the fourth screen. make sense?
1499[21:13:34] <dfcnvt> (Sorry for long text)
1500[21:14:10] <jelly> so you just want full screen not to take up full screen any more for one specific app
1502[21:15:41] <dfcnvt> Right -- my only complaint/reason for this is simply too many tabs/borders/scrollbar. Best if I just treat as if I have four virtual monitors on my two physical monitors.
1504[21:18:34] <jelly> this can probably be done with a decent WM, but I can't find actual solutions, mostly people work around it with separate fake X displays (xephyr, that fake xrandr thing...)
1505[21:18:52] <jelly> eg: not a solution replaced-url
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1517[21:29:51] <dfcnvt> Okay, here's the crux of it. let's say I have only one physical monitor. And I have four YouTube video, I'd like to watch those four at the same time (just cause). I want them four to put up as full screen but equally shared (2x2). If I limit myself to WM -- I assume I just need to resize the browser itself and deals with looking at all of those junk along with an embedded video and a browser's border
1518[21:29:57] <dfcnvt> with it. Unless you're telling me that WM can do that job exactly, to make it skinless and can make up four containers for that single monitor?
1523[21:33:37] <inbe4> Is it good practice to download individual deb-files, for example, i installed libappindicator3-1 manually, beacuse that was not installable on bullseye
1538[21:38:07] <dfcnvt> inbe4: Oh, I thought you might be referring to Debian...?
1539[21:38:10] <somiaj> inbe4: correct, dependencies can be the issue, and in this case packages are often removed for a reason, so nice to know what.
1540[21:39:00] <inbe4> somiaj: Oh, so it's deprecated! I should probably remove those packages then..
1541[21:39:11] <inbe4> I can always use flatpak for Slack I guess :)
1542[21:39:12] <dfcnvt> (Nevermind, I take it back -- didn't realize the name of version to Debian is bulleye)
1543[21:40:06] <inbe4> dfcnvt: The current testing-branch has the code name Bullseye. You probably use Buster, which is the current stable branch
1544[21:40:37] <dfcnvt> inbe4: Aye, yes.
1545[21:40:55] <somiaj> inbe4: thrid party stuff isn't fully supported here, and in general a lot depends on what it is. Some stuff makes good packages that are compadable with debian, others don't. But it appears that the package you are looking for was made for buster, not bullseye, which is why it needs this now depricated libary and hasn't been updated.
1546[21:41:30] <inbe4> somiaj: Yes, that makes sense!
1547[21:41:41] <inbe4> Thanks for helping me figure this out :)
1549[21:42:17] <somiaj> inbe4: note, in this particular case since the package is compadable with testing I think you'll be fine, but that is the 'it depends', so my general advise is don't get in the habbit of installing .deb's for a different release than you are running.
1550[21:42:41] <somiaj> inbe4: so if that one libary is all you need for slack, I think you'll be just fine, just realize any bugs in the lib or desktop aren't something debian can really help with.
1551[21:43:01] *** Quits: sappheiros (~sappheiro@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1552[21:43:30] <jelly> dfcnvt, I'd imagine a tiling wm could do that, but I haven't actually used any. I've used devilspie and kde and afterstep's to force window sizes and placements before, and if you were using a media player for yt instead of a browser that would be easily doable
1554[21:44:10] <inbe4> somiaj: Yes, is was just the one package, but I will keep this in mind for future situations!
1555[21:44:36] <somiaj> dfcnvt: also maybe youtube-dl and running 4 video players might be easier to tile the windows than youtube in a browser (since you won't be full screen)
1556[21:44:51] <somiaj> dfcnvt: mpv will have nice small windows you could easily tile
1557[21:45:15] <dfcnvt> Well...What about Netflix, you can't get the media file.
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1559[21:46:37] <somiaj> dfcnvt: I just saw youtube, but yea you can tile browsers, might depend on the site if they have a 'popout' window that is almost all video or not. I was just pointing out that running in a browser window may have a lot of additonal stuff when viewing
1560[21:47:11] <somiaj> another thought I had was using something like xypher and running it fullscreen inside a nested xserver, then tiling those windows. Maybe that could work, though might be a lot of overhead to setup.
1561[21:48:12] <jelly> Xephyr incurs overhead
1562[21:48:22] <somiaj> arg xephyr
1563[21:48:52] <jelly> yo dawg I heard you liked X servers
1569[21:49:50] <jelly> that may or may not be a problem
1570[21:50:15] <jmcnaught> dfcnvt: one tip that might help is if you replace the "watch?v=" part of a YouTube URL with "embed/" then the video takes up the entire viewport.
1571[21:51:19] *** Quits: platvoeten (~platvoete@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1572[21:51:21] <dfcnvt> jmcnaught: Make matter worse if I want to watch it on another domain that may not follow this respect. (Netflix, Paramount+, etc)
1573[21:51:53] <dfcnvt> Bah, I reject WM. Split the spacework!
1574[21:53:02] <dfcnvt> workspace**
1575[21:53:19] <dfcnvt> (Reading this article now... replaced-url
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1601[22:20:46] <inbe4> Is it possible to run debian stable, but with the latest amd software? Becausethe only reason i run testing is because the performance on my AMD laptop is bad. Even with backports
1603[22:21:31] <tarzeau_> amd laptop? you mean a laptop with an amd cpu?
1604[22:22:13] <greycat> !buster-backports
1605[22:22:13] <dpkg> Some packages intended for Bullseye (Debian 11) but recompiled for use with Buster (Debian 10) can be found in the buster-backports repository. See replaced-url
1606[22:22:26] <sney> and the award for not reading the whole message goes to..
1607[22:22:33] <inbe4> tarzeau_: Yes :)
1608[22:22:49] <greycat> Well, what the fuck does he want from us? Super double-secret backports?
1609[22:22:50] <sney> inbe4: if backports didn't improve your situation, it's unlikely that anything "latest" will
1612[22:23:24] <sney> inbe4: but if you are asking about a specific piece of software, specify it, and we might have better answers
1613[22:24:42] <inbe4> sney: Im actually not sure what the exact problem is. It is not an issue with the kernel 5.8, because that works fineon other distros. I thibnk it might be the firmware blobs
1614[22:24:57] <inbe4> Which are these: firmware-amd-graphics libgl1-mesa-dri libglx-mesa0 mesa-vulkan-drivers xserver-xorg-video-all
1615[22:25:07] <sney> only one of those packages contains firmware
1617[22:26:00] <inbe4> Yeah, so the problem is probably with firmware-amd-graphics
1618[22:26:43] <sney> firmware tends to be a yes/no proposition, you don't typically see performance improvements from newer blobs. why are you on a 5.8 kernel? buster-backports has been at 5.10 for a while now
1619[22:27:40] <sney> firmware-amd-graphics in buster-backports is also reasonably current, at 20210315 which is the same version in debian unstable
1620[22:27:49] <inbe4> sney: Yeah, i meant 5.10. Which is the same as testing. And testing runs great. So the performance issues does not make sense to me
1621[22:28:15] <sney> mesa and xorg in testing are both newer, that might be the culprit then
1622[22:28:31] <inbe4> sney: Yes, mesa is probably the issue!
1632[22:32:31] <sney> mesa has always been a separate library, but the way drivers work in linux can take some getting used to for sure. at least if/when wayland takes over, or at least as modesetting improves, we won't have to worry about separate "drivers" in the kernel *and* X
1635[22:35:30] *** Quits: LucaTM (~LucaTM@replaced-ip) (Quit: To infinity and beyond...)
1636[22:35:57] <inbe4> sney: Yeah, I've used Arch for a couple of years, and I never had to worry about amd drivers, so I guess that was the reason why i believed it was built into the kernel
1659[22:50:22] <RadoS> When using wicd I can see WLANs, when I disable it and use NetworkManager, WLANs are not visible, and I can't check to eneble WLAN functioanlity in the applet, what can cause this?