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• 31[00:16:36] <vlt> jelly, ratrace: Thank you.
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• 33[00:17:07] <vlt> jelly: I only need the "root can read all of the files" aspect of root.
• 34[00:17:30] <vlt> As in all of the files *below* a certain mount point.
• 35[00:18:34] <vlt> But the files need to retain their user and permission attributes.
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• 47[00:30:23] <mrjpaxton[m]> Hey, I am looking for a way (or a script) to list all packages that are exclusively on a foreign architecture, but not the native one. Mostly for the sake of curiosity. I just want to know if I really need to enable "armhf" with "arm64" for example.
• 48[00:31:48] <mrjpaxton[m]> Just thought someone might have come up with something like that. I dunno. Lol.
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• 75[00:57:41] <Brigo> mrjpaxton[m], dpkg -l *:arch, for example dpkg -l *:i386
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• 90[01:18:11] <mrjpaxton[m]> Brigo: Sure, but that won't exclude the same packages that also have a native :amd64 version for example, right? I want packages that would ONLY have a :i386 version available.
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• 322[05:01:43] <Eryn_1983_FL> hey guys
• 323[05:01:51] <Eryn_1983_FL> how do i run apache in foreground mode??
• 324[05:01:58] <Eryn_1983_FL> i cant seem to find the switch in help
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• 328[05:03:53] <sney> you're probably looking for -X, debug mode? apache2 forks like crazy when working normally, so even if it wasn't daemonized, a lot of it wouldn't be fg
• 329[05:04:05] <Eryn_1983_FL> ok
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• 332[05:04:40] <Eryn_1983_FL> nada fml
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• 340[05:14:46] <SponiX> sney: So... Nvidia 460 from backports seems to have cured my every few week GUI Freeze BS
• 341[05:15:35] <SponiX> sney: I was honestly ready to try acquiring another GPU, or to run an RX 580 as my "display" and just have the GTX 960 4GB card in a lower slot for its nvenc
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• 343[05:16:34] <dvs> Boo! Shoulda got an RX 580, like me!
• 344[05:17:54] <SponiX> dvs: I have a spare one laying around I was about ready to toss in
• 345[05:18:11] <SponiX> Had a handful of 580's at one point, most are out the door now though
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• 453[08:03:39] <StarOnD> I wish to migrate all users and groups from one Debian system to a fresh install. I am able to do this from the files /etc/{passwd,group,shadow,gshadow} My problem is that the non root user on the fresh install is conflicting with a non root user on the old install. How can I deal with this ?
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• 458[08:05:51] <StarOnD> I meant the UID  of the non root user in the fresh install conflicts with UID of an existing user in the old setup. This is locking me out of the new migrated Debian on a VM
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• 562[10:22:03] <arwn> I don't see an option for colemak or colemak-dh in the debian installer. Is there a reason or could i maybe submit patches?
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• 567[10:28:59] <mrjpaxton[m]> arwn: Try using `sudo dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration`, and on the third screen where it asks you for a keyboard layout, choose the one that says "Colemak". See if that works.
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• 569[10:29:42] <mrjpaxton[m]> At least I have one labelled Colemak that is for US keyboards, but I'm not sure which region/keyboard you are using.
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• 574[10:30:45] <arwn> i'm using a slightly modified version of colemak that just swaps 4 keys. but it's identical to the regular us one in all other aspects.
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• 583[10:34:18] <mrjpaxton[m]> Oh... That might be a trickier case then. You could set it as a default, then for Xorg you could use xmodmap and change those keys for X, but to apply it for all of Linux, you'd have to modify `kbd`, which handles all the low-level keyboard mapping.
• 584[10:34:57] <mrjpaxton[m]> I think I used this Arch Wiki page in the past which was really helpful: replaced-url
• 585[10:34:57] <mrjpaxton[m]> - I wish I could recommend something Debian-specific but so far, this page has been the best for me.
• 586[10:35:08] <arwn> ah ok let me check that out
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• 590[10:37:39] <mrjpaxton[m]> It's quite a read. But yeah, I've needed to do custom key mapping in the past before. So that's why I still remember a thing or two about it. Hahaha.
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• 595[10:38:44] <arwn> if i figure out how to make a colemak-dh layout. would that be something i could have be included in the debian repos so i could just apt install it when i forget how to do this in 6 months?
• 596[10:41:54] <z8z> Why apache/php on Debian doesn't recognise the mime type? It was working on a CentOS server
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• 601[10:43:30] <mrjpaxton[m]> Oh, I should mention that "/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/" doesn't exist anymore by default. I think it needs to be created, if I recall. There should still be some examples and readme files in "/usr/share/doc/kbd/" though.
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• 606[10:45:50] <arwn> yeah i was just noticing that. the doc folder seem to be a good reference though
• 607[10:46:07] <mrjpaxton[m]> z8z: I don't know much about CentOS, but as far as I can tell, all that info should be stored in "/etc/mime.types". I think the browser also has to know the MIME time you're trying to open. What kind of files are you trying to work with?
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• 610[10:49:13] <z8z> mrjpaxton[m]: problem is php doesn't return the mime using the getimagesize function
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• 616[10:54:10] <mrjpaxton[m]> Ah, okay. I am not nessecarily a PHP programmer, but I know some CS. I could try to look some something and help.... Are you using something similar to Example 1 on this page? - replaced-url
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• 738[12:15:17] <shtrb> Anyone using pidgin-sipe (or any other SIPE implementation) and can share what UA they use to interact with Microsoft Teams users ?
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• 784[12:48:30] <emilsp> should remove scripts of a package remove package related config and cache dirs in the home dirs of users?
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• 787[12:49:28] <n4dir> no
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• 789[12:49:45] <n4dir> i would not know if should or should not, but usually they don't
• 790[12:50:04] <emilsp> But there wouldn't be any guidelines against doing so?
• 791[12:50:22] <n4dir> i sure never heard, but i really only know that much
• 792[12:50:50] <emilsp> fair, I can't find any such references in the wiki, but then again my search fu is not strong and I've not actually read most of it.
• 793[12:50:58] <n4dir> emilsp: you speak of a deb package ?
• 794[12:51:04] <emilsp> yes
• 795[12:51:28] <n4dir> try #packaging on the (i think ) OFTC server of IRC. Or wait here, someone probably will know.
• 796[12:51:44] <emilsp> will do, thanks n4dir :)
• 797[12:51:49] <n4dir> #packaging is for private pleasure, #mentors or such is kinda official debs
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• 799[12:51:58] <apollo13> generally I'd recommend against removing especially config entries
• 800[12:52:02] <n4dir> as said: as far i know :-)
• 801[12:52:05] <apollo13> but that is just my opinion.
• 802[12:52:47] <n4dir> probably also that much gain, als most if not all other packages don't do it, so you have to clean it up now and then anyway
• 803[12:52:58] <n4dir> also *not* that much gain. sorry
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• 806[12:55:18] <emilsp> well, on other platforms, we try to remove everything from the user dir, mostly because our users can be paranoid at times. Removing any trace of our package would probably feel like the most correct thing for our package.
• 807[12:55:38] <n4dir> yeah, sure. got it
• 808[12:55:57] <apollo13> I can see a point in removing something from system /etc but I'd have some very nasty words for maintainers that remove stuff from my home
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• 810[12:56:28] <emilsp> Fair, but most people who don't know that there exists a `~/.config/` will never be aware of it.
• 811[12:56:29] <n4dir> i have some nasty words for users without backports too ... :-) (ha ha. just kidding)
• 812[12:56:32] <apollo13> if that is what you ment by user dir. Also, depending on the system you will not even have access to the userdir
• 813[12:57:04] <n4dir> backups, not backports. Let me first wake up and idle while doing that.
• 814[12:57:06] <apollo13> you'd imo create a false illusion, you might be able to remove the ~/.config entry for users currently signed in, but that is about it
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• 816[12:57:23] <emilsp> Would you be all too angry if after removing an electron app, it's user-unlegible config directory would be removed from your ~?
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• 818[12:57:51] <apollo13> I'd probably not be angry till I noticed what it did :)
• 819[12:58:00] <emilsp> Yeah, it'd have to be a best-effort thing, because other users might have an encrypted or network mounted ~.
• 820[12:58:32] <emilsp> I do understand where you are coming from though :)
• 821[12:58:42] <apollo13> anyways, I do not think that a system package should ever touch anything in a users homedir
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• 823[12:59:14] <apollo13> /etc might (emphasis on *might*) be another story, but still, would lean towards leaving the files there -- especially if they are user modified
• 824[12:59:53] <emilsp> for reference, we do not touch /etc or /var when uninstalling, only when `purge` is invoked.
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• 826[13:00:32] <apollo13> right, I guess for purge it is expected to well purge things on the system
• 827[13:00:57] <apollo13> I guess my main resistance comes from the fact that the user purging a package is not neccessarily the user also using the package
• 828[13:01:05] <apollo13> so in essence you'd remove configuration from someone else
• 829[13:02:09] <emilsp> Our app is mostly targetted to single user installations anyway, it's a VPN app for personal use, it needs to have a system service component, which necessitates the system package, but also has a user friendly frontend, which then dumps stuff in your ~
• 830[13:02:24] <emilsp> So I don't think these things apply.
• 831[13:02:29] <mcope> What if the user is sharing their /home dir between two PCs? Uninstalling the package and removing their user config on one PC will remove it for both. This may not be what they expect.
• 832[13:03:03] <n4dir> i guess something like a choice would be nice, at least for me, emilsp. Having to hunt old configs ain't much fun either
• 833[13:03:12] <emilsp> Yes, this is a valid concern. But the uninstaller can always check if /home resides on a local disk.
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• 836[13:03:45] <emilsp> Well, not /home, but the respective ~ of the concerned users.
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• 858[13:10:11] <shtrb> What does the family in raspi.debian.net/tested-images mean ?
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• 915[13:57:54] <newlinux^> hi how can I install this version with config? replaced-url
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• 919[13:58:20] <newlinux^> IF I use use apt it gives me 4.13-4
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• 924[14:01:03] <avu> newlinux^: 4.14 is in testing and unstable, maybe it's easy to backport
• 925[14:01:05] <avu> !ssb
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• 927[14:01:06] <dpkg> First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
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• 931[14:02:36] <newlinux^> If I use dpkg, how will I uninstall that package?
• 932[14:03:11] <avu> newlinux^: why do you want to use dpkg? You would normally use apt and 'apt remove foo' where foo is the package name
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• 976[14:33:59] <jelly> newlinux^, uninstall it the usual way, regardless of the fact it got installed using the low-level tool
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• 978[14:34:22] <newlinux^> hi jelly
• 979[14:34:56] <newlinux^> like apt remove?
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• 983[14:40:53] <jelly> yes
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• 1003[14:59:07] <devon> System fails to notice speakers plugged in, how to fix?
• 1004[14:59:24] <shtrb> define fail to notice
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• 1014[15:06:20] <devon> shtrb: speakers are silent. Wading through the muck of dozens and dozens of websites full of crap cures, the blind leading the blind.
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• 1016[15:07:19] <shtrb> are the speakers listed in pulse audio/alsa/oss what ever toold you use ?
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• 1026[15:18:47] <devon> shtrb: speakers work if booted when they're plugged in - never if they are not plugged in while booting
• 1027[15:19:10] <devon> er, plugged in when booting.
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• 1030[15:19:53] <shtrb> you did not answer to my question , are they listed if you run "pacmd list sinks"
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• 1055[15:53:44] <EdePopede> looks like the Poettering Hall of Fame Oo
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• 1060[15:58:42] <devon> shtrb: Thanks for helping! I found a non-technical solution.
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• 1078[16:10:26] <shtrb> devon, translation ?
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• 1105[16:35:00] <ratrace> took an axe to their computer, probably.
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• 1108[16:35:20] <jolt> :D
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• 1111[16:36:03] <ratrace> I did that once, literally. very liberating.
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• 1134[17:04:41] <brokencycle> Hi! After my laptop had to have a new motherboard :( , it no longer boots. So I am now trying
• 1135[17:04:58] <brokencycle> the rescue mode of the d-i, but I'm having trouble with that as well.
• 1136[17:05:47] <shtrb> brokencycle, did you try to install again grub on that motherboard ? have you made sure you are booting in UEFI mode ?
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• 1138[17:06:16] <brokencycle> shtrb: I am booting in UEFI mode, and I wanted to re-install grub, but that always fails.
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• 1140[17:06:49] <brokencycle> Unfortunately, I can't use Ctrl-A [1234] to see what happens - in the normal installer environment, one of [234] contains the logs.
• 1141[17:06:51] <shtrb> Lenovo ?
• 1142[17:06:56] <brokencycle> No, Dell :(
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• 1144[17:07:27] <shtrb> secure boot disabled ?
• 1145[17:07:34] <brokencycle> Yes
• 1146[17:07:51] <brokencycle> Should I enable it?
• 1147[17:07:55] <shtrb> no
• 1148[17:09:01] <brokencycle> Before, when in the "grub>" menu, I figured that there are several modules missing, which is probably why it can't boot.
• 1149[17:09:28] <brokencycle> But I didn't have any luck mounting the /boot partition from there to possibly copy them from elsewhere.
• 1150[17:10:04] <shtrb> donno , normally it just works when secure boot is disabled and you are in uefi mode
• 1151[17:10:22] <shtrb> In d-i the disk itself is seen ?
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• 1153[17:10:43] <brokencycle> In d-i, I can see the disk and all partitions, but without d-i, I can't see anything.
• 1154[17:11:02] <brokencycle> There's a small gotcha, which the rescue mode seems to not cater for:
• 1155[17:11:31] <shtrb> There was a way to load more modules in d-i , let me seatch you that already
• 1156[17:11:40] <brokencycle> The partitioning is /boot and one big LUKS partition, and inside that, I have root on btrfs.
• 1157[17:11:50] <shtrb> *in rescue mode
• 1158[17:12:08] <brokencycle> In d-i, I don't need more modules, everything works nicely. I just need them to be visible when the machine
• 1159[17:12:11] <brokencycle> tries to boot by itself.
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• 1161[17:13:08] <brokencycle> And/or manage to add a boot path to the BIOS manually (but I don't know how to do that, either).
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• 1163[17:14:14] <brokencycle> d-i asks me to unencrypt the LUKS partition and then offers me the root partition to mount - all files there, no problems so far.
• 1164[17:14:27] <brokencycle> It's just that eg. all the crypto modules are not visible when in "grub>"
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• 1166[17:14:56] <brokencycle> But when I execute a shell in the installed system from rescue mode, these modules are there.
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• 1184[17:26:23] <brokencycle> I mounted the root, /boot and /boot/efi partitions, but /boot/efi is empty.
• 1185[17:26:29] <brokencycle> huh?
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• 1199[17:46:23] <brokencycle> found it. the /boot/efi partition entry in /etc/fstab was commented. mounting
• 1200[17:46:34] <brokencycle> the partition manually and then re-installing grub worked like a charm.
• 1201[17:46:43] <brokencycle> machine is back up. :)
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• 1206[17:55:28] <gordonfish> brokencycle: Am curious as to why it was commented in the first place
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• 1210[17:57:18] <brokencycle> Maybe I did it because I didn't know what to do with it.
• 1211[17:57:42] <brokencycle> But now I have uncommented it and run grub-update, for just in case.
• 1212[17:57:53] <brokencycle> Next mobo change will be less painful, I hope.
• 1213[17:57:57] <tosted> dpkf is muted.
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• 1215[17:58:31] <greycat> dpkg, what are you
• 1216[17:58:31] <dpkg> I am an infobot. For more information, ask me about <infobot>.
• 1217[17:58:45] <greycat> Seems non-muted to me, assuming you meant dpkg.
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• 1222[18:01:00] <hanasaki> what is in the debian 5.10 kernel of bullseye for init ram disk? working on building a custom kernel... the bullseye one boots. mine hangs on loading ramdisk....
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• 1224[18:01:51] <greycat> hanasaki: replaced-url
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• 1243[18:15:40] <solomomi> hey, the latest version of docker-compose is 1.25.0? this is about 1.5 years old. am I missing something? can I get the latest version?
• 1244[18:15:41] <solomomi> thanks
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• 1248[18:15:59] <jelly> ,v docker-compose
• 1249[18:16:01] <judd> Package: docker-compose on amd64 -- stretch: 1.8.0-2; stretch-backports: 1.21.0-3~bpo9+1; buster: 1.21.0-3; bullseye: 1.25.0-1; sid: 1.25.0-1
• 1250[18:16:16] <jelly> judd, checkbackport docker-compose
• 1251[18:16:17] <judd> Backporting package docker-compose in sid→buster/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper-compat (= 12), python3-docker (>= 4.0.0).
• 1252[18:16:25] <jelly> judd, checkbackport python3-docker
• 1253[18:16:26] <judd> Backporting package python3-docker in sid→buster/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper-compat (= 12).
• 1254[18:16:27] <greycat> they're complaining that the version *in sid* is too old
• 1255[18:16:38] <jelly> are they?
• 1256[18:16:44] <greycat> 12:15 solomomi> hey, the latest version of docker-compose is 1.25.0? this is
• 1257[18:16:45] *** Quits: Major_Biscuit (~Major_Bis@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
• 1258[18:16:51] <greycat> 1.25.0-1; sid: 1.25.0-1
• 1259[18:17:13] <jelly> I suppose everyone uses docker's own packages instead
• 1260[18:17:16] <solomomi> yeah.. I wanted to be sure I'm not missing something. and wonder if there is something to do ot get the latest
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• 1262[18:17:25] <greycat> use upstream's
• 1263[18:18:22] <solomomi> upstream's == official docker package (after validate the key...)?
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• 1266[18:19:07] <greycat> doesn't have to be a package, but yeah... upstream in this case is docker.com
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• 1268[18:19:55] <solomomi> cool. thanks! <#
• 1269[18:19:57] <solomomi> cool. thanks! <3
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• 1276[18:22:00] <Nemin> Hi, I'm wondering is it possible to remove NetworkManager from Cinnamon? I see that it's a dependence, but I personally have no use for it as I'm using a very simple wired setup. Or is something like this not possible without breaking things?
• 1277[18:22:04] <tosted> 555
• 1278[18:23:10] <tosted> he
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• 1282[18:24:39] <sney> Nemin: disable the service, the applet won't load without it
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• 1284[18:26:39] <Nemin> Yeah, that's better than nothing, but I hoped I could remove the package itself. So that's not something one can do, without problems down the road?
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• 1286[18:27:43] <sney> I mean, try removing it, it may only pull the top-level metapackage with it and leave the rest of your desktop intact
• 1287[18:28:56] <Nemin> Ah!
• 1288[18:29:22] <Nemin> Okay, I guess I don't understand Apt that much yet... Thanks for the help, I'll try that soon.
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• 1311[18:42:05] <vampirefrog> hiyo, I'm trying to connect to another machine via direct ethernet link, not sure how to go about it, I've tried adding this in /etc/network/interfaces:
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• 1316[18:45:19] <vampirefrog> auto ens19 \ iface ens19 inet static \ address 192.168.2.1 \ netmask 255.255.255.0 \ gateway 192.168.2.2
• 1317[18:45:34] <vampirefrog> but then in `ip addr` I am not seeing 192.168.2.1
• 1318[18:45:46] <rnm> reload the network services
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• 1321[18:46:31] <vampirefrog> sure
• 1322[18:47:36] <greycat> Get rid of the gateway there.
• 1323[18:47:40] <vampirefrog> ok
• 1324[18:48:14] <vampirefrog> hmm none of that seems to do it
• 1325[18:48:28] <greycat> What does "ifup ens19" give you?
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• 1327[18:48:59] <vampirefrog> replaced-url
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• 1329[18:49:21] <vampirefrog> I don't have ifup, I use ip link set ens19 up
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• 1331[18:49:47] <greycat> !buster su
• 1332[18:49:47] <dpkg> In buster, su no longer overrides PATH by default, requiring that you use "su -" or "su -l" for login shells (which is not really a new thing at all...). See replaced-url
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• 1334[18:50:57] <vampirefrog> oh alright, that seems to have done it
• 1335[18:51:03] <vampirefrog> I'll remember that su - trick
• 1336[18:51:05] <vampirefrog> thanks
• 1337[18:51:11] <greycat> the wiki has a more permanent solution
• 1338[18:51:20] <vampirefrog> now to figure out how to connect to it from the other computer which is windows
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• 1340[18:51:34] <vampirefrog> more permanent solution to what?
• 1341[18:51:50] <greycat> so that "su" works properly without having to use the "-" which changes directory
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• 1345[18:52:18] <vampirefrog> oh ok
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• 1353[18:56:46] <vampirefrog> so I can ping the debian machine from the other machine, but I can't ping the other machine from the debian one
• 1354[18:56:58] <vampirefrog> I've tried ping -I ens19 192.168.2.2
• 1355[18:57:04] <vampirefrog> PING 192.168.2.2 (192.168.2.2) from 192.168.2.1 ens19: 56(84) bytes of data.
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• 1357[18:57:38] <greycat> you shouldn't have to use -I ens19 for this to work
• 1358[18:58:18] <vampirefrog> oh it would detect by subnet mask?
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• 1361[18:58:36] <greycat> and I can't come up with any reason why you'd get successful ping responses but not be able to initiate ping from this side
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• 1365[18:59:27] <vampirefrog> replaced-url
• 1366[18:59:35] <vampirefrog> maybe if I restart the windows one
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• 1369[19:02:13] <alexrelis[m]> How do I set up hibernate on my laptop if swap is on a USB drive?
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• 1376[19:03:24] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], what's the problem with that?
• 1377[19:03:42] <vampirefrog> greycat: ok it was the windows firewall, ping works both ways now, thanks for the help
• 1378[19:03:52] <alexrelis[m]> Brigo: My laptop doesn't actually resume from hibernate.
• 1379[19:04:35] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], at what step does it fails?
• 1380[19:05:25] <Brigo> well, if the usb is external, maybe the kernel can't access it at boot time ...
• 1381[19:05:39] <alexrelis[m]> Brigo: I have 32 GBs of RAM, set the swappiness to 0, made a 32 GB swap partition on my flash drive. When I `systemctl hibernate`, it shuts down my laptop and when I turn it on it's as if I had turned it off.
• 1382[19:06:34] <alexrelis[m]> Also would mention that I added the swap partition to my `/etc/fstab`.
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• 1384[19:06:38] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], can you see if the system writes to the disk before shut down?
• 1385[19:06:55] <alexrelis[m]> Brigo: How can I check that? `dmesg`?
• 1386[19:07:13] <vampirefrog> swapping on a hot-swappable drive sounds like a recipe for desaster
• 1387[19:07:15] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], maybe journalctl -b -1, just at the end
• 1388[19:07:19] <vampirefrog> disaster*
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• 1390[19:08:04] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], why in a flash drive?
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• 1392[19:08:54] <alexrelis[m]> vampirefrog: Brigo: I don't really have much of a choice. My laptop is cursed with having S3 suspend disabled in favor of the Windows-specific "modern standby". Suspending on this machine will cause it to freeze. It looks like there's no other way to get past this unless HP releases a UEFI update that adds S3 to their ACPI tables.
• 1393[19:09:00] <talin> hello. i just upgraded debian and now my outgoing mail isn't working. it seems that opendkim is now configured to run on a local port rather than a unix socket. however, after updating the config, i can't systemctl start opendkim, because "it is masked". any idea what that means?
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• 1396[19:09:29] <alexrelis[m]> Turns this otherwise killer laptop into being useless as a production machine. Sickening.
• 1397[19:09:35] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], always windows :(
• 1398[19:09:57] <alexrelis[m]> And I would like to hibernate on the internal drive, but I have full disk encryption and would like to keep it that way.
• 1399[19:10:20] <Brigo> talin, it is like disable, you can unmask it.
• 1400[19:10:22] <vampirefrog> I haven't used swap in years, so I don't know
• 1401[19:10:32] <talin> Brigo: but what would cause it to be masked?
• 1402[19:11:01] <Brigo> talin, i haven't use dkim server, just check the logs.
• 1403[19:11:11] <alexrelis[m]> vampirefrog: Yeah, with the amount of RAM I have I just don't feel like it's necessary to have anymore. Swap usually just slows my system to a crawl if I ever actually run out of RAM. I'd much rather have my system kill the process that has gone haywire.
• 1404[19:11:19] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], can't you create a swap file?
• 1405[19:11:25] <greycat> you could ask systemctl to unmask it, but the real question is why was it masked to begin with
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• 1407[19:11:44] <vampirefrog> alexrelis[m]: same here, I'd rather have it killed
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• 1409[19:12:16] <vampirefrog> alexrelis[m]: or if the machine supports a second unencrypted drive, maybe add that in
• 1410[19:12:27] <vampirefrog> like, another m.4 slot
• 1411[19:12:35] <alexrelis[m]> Brigo: I think it's not possible because Grub won't know how to recover from the swap file if my system is encrypted. But don't quote me on that.
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• 1413[19:12:51] <alexrelis[m]> vampirefrog: Unfortunately, my laptop only has a m.2 slot and a couple of USB ports.
• 1414[19:12:53] <vampirefrog> is the whole drive encrypted or just the partitions?
• 1415[19:13:35] <alexrelis[m]> vampirefrog: My single btrfs is encrypted. The EFI partition is unencrypted because it has to be.
• 1416[19:13:56] <vampirefrog> there you go, you can just shrink your partition and make an unencrypted swap one
• 1417[19:14:00] <Brigo> alexrelis[m], oh, an encrypted system, the whole package, then. Anyway i think it is the kernel that has to find the image in the swap.
• 1418[19:14:12] <vampirefrog> but you sort of answered your own question earlier, just don't use swap
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• 1420[19:14:27] <Brigo> vampirefrog, he want to hibernate
• 1421[19:14:37] <Brigo> wants*
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• 1423[19:14:48] <vampirefrog> well yes but I thought he implied that hibernation happens on the swap partition
• 1424[19:14:52] <alexrelis[m]> Yeah. I need it as an alternative to suspend because HP hates GNU/Linux users suspending their laptops.
• 1425[19:15:07] <Brigo> vampirefrog, it does.
• 1426[19:15:20] <vampirefrog> so add a swap partition to your drive and shrink the main one
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• 1429[19:17:14] <Brigo> vampirefrog, don't know if it is that easy with a encrypted partition.
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• 1431[19:17:41] <vampirefrog> you mean shrinking it?
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• 1433[19:18:20] <vampirefrog> you might need a temporary drive
• 1434[19:18:21] <alexrelis[m]> vampirefrog: Yeah.. I guess. I'd just rather not do it on the encrypted drive because then there's a chance of someone using forensics to access information that was stored in swap. Paranoid, I know. I'd much rather have it stored in a USB that I can just pluck out. Ultimately, I'd rather not have to hibernate.
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• 1436[19:18:42] <hagbard_> Hi, still hadn't any luck with recompiling glibc2.31 myself. These are the test FAILs I get: replaced-url
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• 1440[19:20:03] <alexrelis[m]> I'm probably just gonna live without suspend/hibernate.
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• 1477[20:02:14] <HelloShitty> Hello. logrotate is ran by default by cron or by anacron? I'm a bit conffused
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• 1481[20:04:59] <azeem> HelloShitty: I think anacron isn't installed by default, so what does "by default" even mean?
• 1482[20:05:09] <azeem> if you install anacron, I guess it's run by that
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• 1515[20:27:44] <jolt> HelloShitty: logrotate installs a file into cron.daily, and cron runs that, yes
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• 1517[20:28:08] <jolt> and azeem says, which cron depends on which one you install.
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• 1522[20:33:02] <ratrace> probably the default one, ISC
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• 1545[20:46:18] <HelloShitty> I'm not sure I ever installed anacron
• 1546[20:46:22] <HelloShitty> but it is installed
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• 1550[20:48:36] <HelloShitty> I have added an entry to /etc/logrotate.conf and I can see that there is an /etc/anacrontab file with entries to run cron.daily, weekly and monthly
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• 1552[20:50:43] <azeem> HelloShitty: well, is logrotate run at all and/or do you have any issue with its operation?
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• 1554[20:51:51] <HelloShitty> So, I presume that the entry to /etc/logrotate.conf is all that I need because there is already a 'logrotate' file in /etc/cron.daily
• 1555[20:52:03] <HelloShitty> azeem: I think I have no problem with logrotate
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• 1557[20:52:37] <HelloShitty> so, I think the workflow is: anacron -> cron -> logrotate
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• 1568[21:05:35] <wwilliam> how to play swf file?
• 1569[21:07:41] <jelly> not easily, without a flash-capable browser
• 1570[21:07:42] <ratrace> oh, man
• 1571[21:07:49] <jelly> and flash is dead
• 1572[21:08:11] <greycat> use a dedicated machine that's not on the Internet and whose clock is permanently set to 2019?
• 1573[21:08:12] <wwilliam> Ah ok.
• 1574[21:08:19] <gordonfish> jelly: Gone in a flash?
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• 1576[21:08:34] <jelly> flash like gordon.
• 1577[21:08:36] <legonick> Hello! Question about ntpdate-debian....
• 1578[21:08:43] <ratrace> I see, we're doing this. Bad Pun Tuesday.
• 1579[21:09:16] *** Quits: Kilgarah_Hunith (~LoseThos@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
• 1580[21:09:18] <gordonfish> punage time
• 1581[21:09:23] <jelly> ratrace, wait wait. Do I get a redo.
• 1582[21:09:49] <jelly> Flash is dead, but 𝐆𝐎𝐑𝐃𝐎𝐍'𝐒 𝐀𝐋𝐈𝐕𝐄
• 1583[21:09:49] <ratrace> spin the wheel, see what it says :)
• 1584[21:09:58] <wwilliam> So no way to see those swf files?
• 1585[21:10:11] <wwilliam> can i convert them somehow to another format?
• 1586[21:10:15] <ratrace> yes way, you just need ancient software versions still capable of flashing
• 1587[21:10:17] <rgwu> Where there's a wwilliam there's a way.
• 1588[21:10:30] <legonick> ntpdate-debian is run when an interface is brought up. It uses /etc/default/ntpdate. I'm not sure what options are available in that config. file. Looking for a way to disable it.
• 1589[21:10:38] <ratrace> wwilliam: if ffmpeg can't do it.... dunno what can.
• 1590[21:10:42] <greycat> !ntpdate
• 1591[21:10:42] <dpkg> ntpdate is an obsolete and unmaintained program to set a system clock via <NTP>. Just install the ntp package instead. Since Debian 5.0 "Lenny", ntp's default configuration files (NTPD_OPTS='-g' in /etc/default/ntp, 'iburst' option for default servers in /etc/ntp.conf) make ntpdate unnecessary. See also <why not ntpdate>.
• 1592[21:10:55] <jelly> wwilliam, replaced-url
• 1593[21:11:04] <ratrace> wwilliam: but hell, googs has everythings! replaced-url
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• 1595[21:11:43] <greycat> I thought a .swf was a program, like a game. How does one convert a program into a movie?
• 1596[21:11:51] <ratrace> wwilliam: that will be 49.99€, for GooleMaid services. send me your paypal handle so I can send a payment request.
• 1597[21:11:52] <jelly> frame by frame
• 1598[21:11:59] <ratrace> *GoogleMaid
• 1599[21:12:05] <jelly> harder if interactive
• 1600[21:12:40] <legonick> I'm using ntpdate to statically pull time from another server, but want to disable the "automatically set time when an interface comes up" functionality.
• 1601[21:12:46] <wwilliam> Thank you all.
• 1602[21:13:17] <ratrace> legonick: you don't need ntpdate, ntp (daemon) has an option for that.
• 1603[21:13:23] <greycat> !hurts
• 1604[21:13:23] <dpkg> "Doctor, it hurts when I bend my arm this way!"
• 1605[21:13:38] <ratrace> dunno which one, I'm using systemd-timesyncd, so I can't even try to look it up!
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• 1608[21:14:30] <ratrace> ah -g -q
• 1609[21:14:34] <jelly> legonick, if it does anytihng when an iface comes up, it's probably doing it from a script in /etc/network/if-up.d/
• 1610[21:14:36] <legonick> @ratrace, is there a method to do it using timedatectl or systemd-timesyncd? Maybe that's a better path. I don't actually have NTP installed! Just ntpdate.
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• 1612[21:15:05] <greycat> Why can't you simply use the "another server" as your NTP server, and install NTP and run it normally?
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• 1614[21:15:20] <legonick> @jelly, yep the script's there. I was just looking for a way to nuke it at the base level so any ntpdate-debian calls don't change time.
• 1615[21:16:01] <gordonfish> wwilliam: You can try kmplayer, I think it's windows only but should run via wine and such, it can play swf files directly
• 1616[21:16:13] <ratrace> I smell an XY problem here tho. If you have a stratum server available to be the clock source ... why do you want to set the time _once_?
• 1617[21:16:27] <legonick> Thought there might be a clean option in there. One method is adding a -q so it only queries but that seems...not optimal.
• 1618[21:16:34] <jelly> legonick, put an "exit 0" on top, as the second line
• 1619[21:16:38] <wwilliam> Thank you gordonfish
• 1620[21:17:28] <legonick> @ratrace, I don't want any time skew-age. But I have no battery, so I need to set the time to something sane once, or very occasionally.
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• 1622[21:17:47] <jelly> what's wrong with skewage?
• 1623[21:18:03] <ratrace> legonick: but then you're okay with drift?
• 1624[21:18:06] <greycat> "I don't want any time skewage so I'm doing my utmost to make sure my clock drifts"
• 1625[21:18:08] <jelly> if your clock is not too fast or not too slow, there will be no skewage
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• 1627[21:19:04] <jelly> if it's too fast, ntp does its darndest to keep the time going monotonically up but still synced with Actual Time
• 1628[21:19:24] <ratrace> good guy ntp
• 1629[21:19:27] <jelly> I have no idea how well timesyncd does.
• 1630[21:19:33] <jelly> chrony and ntp are a-ok
• 1631[21:19:35] <ratrace> well enough
• 1632[21:19:54] <ratrace> timesycnd is less precise than ntpd but ... Ain't Nobody Got Time for THAT level of precision....
• 1633[21:20:00] <ratrace> hey, it IS bad pun tuesday!
• 1634[21:20:19] <legonick> @ratrace, well, skewage is probably not a huge deal either really. Probably worse though, but I don't know the details on skewage - how MUCH skewage? I'd probably rather a big jump then a bunch of "fake seconds". That said...if seconds are "perfect"...then there should never be a jump, so yeah, probably have "fake seconds" anyways, LOL.
• 1635[21:20:23] <jelly> anything's better than Windows "we'll just step your clock every which way once a week or so"
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• 1637[21:20:53] <jelly> (you can tune it for sanity)
• 1638[21:20:55] <ratrace> legonick: as the factoid above says, ntpd starts with -g which allows it to do large jumps, on startup
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• 1640[21:21:23] <jelly> dovecot, however just _hates_ when time goes backwards
• 1641[21:21:31] <greycat> ntpd does it damnedest *not* to jump the clock around except for the initial startup
• 1642[21:21:32] <ratrace> legonick: so there's that. I don't know how timesyncd behaves in situations where it has to jump a lot, never had the need to test that. so... TIAS, and/or ask around on googs
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• 1645[21:22:02] <ratrace> postfix hates it too. mysql hates any time changes and will happily throw a hissing fit and meltdown-y tantrum. nobody likes time changes.
• 1646[21:22:09] <ratrace> note: timeZONE changes != UTC time changes
• 1647[21:22:17] <jelly> greycat, which is good, because boot process presumably does that before other services start
• 1648[21:22:32] <jelly> ratrace, amusingly, Oracle DB does not mind
• 1649[21:22:34] <legonick> Hmmm yeah, OK, I think ntpd is probably the "right-est" answer, but also a major scope creep, LOL. AKA I can't tackle a change of magnitude right now.
• 1650[21:22:40] <ratrace> jelly: nor postgres :)
• 1651[21:22:43] <jelly> keeps its own time.
• 1652[21:22:50] <legonick> *of that magnitude
• 1653[21:23:09] <jelly> I expected oracle to go barf, but no, just keeps on keeping on
• 1654[21:23:18] <ratrace> legonick: perhaps there really is no problem and defaults (timesyncd) JustWorks(tm)
• 1655[21:23:57] <jelly> does buster enable tinesyncd by default?
• 1656[21:24:03] <ratrace> it's easy to think there's a problem and then go onto a yak shaving xy galore fest, while in reality, the systems are already configured and tested for those cases
• 1657[21:24:07] <ratrace> jelly: afaik, yes
• 1658[21:24:09] <jelly> good
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• 1660[21:24:27] <ratrace> it's resolved that's not being used yet. ALSO GOOD. :)
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• 1663[21:25:32] <legonick> @ratrace, another wrench in the monkey is the option to have the time source set to other stuff, like statically kicked off, which means disabling timesyncd or ntpd. So it's "easier" to leave them off. Maybe not a good method, but again, scope change would me major to support those while using ntpd.
• 1664[21:25:34] <ratrace> speaking of time changes and daemons hating time going back .... chances are we're due for a negative leap second in the near future
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• 1666[21:25:49] <legonick> *be major
• 1667[21:25:50] <ratrace> (next few years)
• 1668[21:26:13] <ratrace> legonick: but I don't get it. just enable one (eg. timesyncd) and let it do its work
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• 1670[21:26:17] <jelly> replaced-url
• 1671[21:26:32] <jelly> ratrace, smear that thing baby
• 1672[21:26:35] <jelly> all over the place
• 1673[21:26:41] <ratrace> legonick: _test_ it to see if it does(n't do) large time jumps on boot
• 1674[21:26:52] <ratrace> jelly: like google heh.
• 1675[21:26:58] <jelly> well yes
• 1676[21:27:13] <jelly> everyone on GGZ
• 1677[21:27:45] <legonick> @ratrace, you are making me come clean...it's an embedded box. It needs to support time setting from things other than ntp, which means many changes to disable/enable ntpd when the time source changes, lots of testing, etc. Major scope creep.
• 1678[21:28:13] <legonick> 11th hour and whatnot of course. :D
• 1679[21:28:18] <ratrace> legonick: what things tho'
• 1680[21:28:26] <ratrace> and why do you allow many things to set time
• 1681[21:28:59] <legonick> It supports many options for how it's set. rdate, some "internal" source, statically set....
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• 1685[21:29:28] <ratrace> legonick: sounds like a mess where any solution, your attempted ntpdate, might fail
• 1686[21:30:15] <legonick> @ratrace, pretty much, yep.
• 1687[21:30:17] <legonick> LOL.
• 1688[21:30:17] <jelly> legonick, do you have timesyncd installed at all? Which Debian is this based on?
• 1689[21:30:41] <legonick> @jelly, yes, and disabled. :D Err at least I think it's installed. Def. disabled according to timedatectl status.
• 1690[21:30:53] <jelly> but it's there, good
• 1691[21:31:07] <greycat> doesn't sound *too* embedded, if it's running systemd
• 1692[21:31:25] <jelly> systemd is not too big a hog
• 1693[21:31:39] <legonick> @greycat, yeah, it's not. But that's the use. It's not a desktop. It's not a server.
• 1694[21:32:02] <greycat> is it meant to run for long periods of time? if so, ntp.
• 1695[21:32:32] <greycat> primitive "rdate once and forget it" might be OK if it's meant to run for only short periods
• 1696[21:32:43] <berkhan> Hi folks! Where can I find more details on rebootless kernel patching on Debian Buster?
• 1697[21:32:45] <jelly> or figure out how to do oneshot with timesyncthingy
• 1698[21:33:20] <ratrace> berkhan: ubuntu live patch service.
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• 1700[21:33:59] <ratrace> all those services are paid, btw. canonical's, redhats and oracle's. canonical has a 6 (I think?) machine free tier but .... you're essentially guinea pig for the paying customers
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• 1702[21:34:02] <legonick> Let me investigate another direction....
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• 1705[21:34:31] <legonick> How do you determine if an installed package is a dependency of another installed package using apt or something?
• 1706[21:34:42] <jelly> aptitude why foo
• 1707[21:34:55] <jelly> (needs aptitude installed ;-)
• 1708[21:34:56] <ratrace> try to remove it, quick and dumb way. apt remove -s somepackage (that -s is crucial)
• 1709[21:35:13] <jelly> ^ won't tell you about Recommends or Suggests
• 1710[21:35:15] <berkhan> Don't mind paying money for this but as a company we are staying away from Oracle and Canonical. I think Red Hat was offering KPatch, right but only for RHEL-like systems?
• 1711[21:35:28] <ratrace> yup
• 1712[21:35:40] <ratrace> there's no requirement to run debian kernel on a debian OS tho
• 1713[21:35:48] <jelly> heh
• 1714[21:35:58] <ratrace> it's all Linux(tm)(r)
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• 1716[21:36:14] <jelly> and Ubuntu has new kenrels like every frikin week
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• 1718[21:37:01] <jelly> it's honestly annoying enough that, were I a customer I'd actually look into that service
• 1719[21:37:04] <berkhan> I'll look at more on KPatch. Do you have any recommendation about it to start my research?
• 1720[21:37:17] <ratrace> there was an effort by gentoo to provide a libre/fossy framework for DIY type live patching, but I don't know what stage that is at
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• 1723[21:38:28] <wyatt8740> i build my own kernels as debian packages (make bindeb-pkg)
• 1724[21:39:16] <legonick> Sweet, thanks @jelly & @ratrace. OK I've got my path...thanks for the lessons on ntpd, systemd-timesyncd, ntpdate, etc. :)
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• 1729[21:40:07] <berkhan> That's interesting @wyatt8740. Can you apply new kernels in runtime?
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• 1741[21:41:06] <berkhan> Because I just did `apt-get upgrade` and `uname -a` shows the older version
• 1742[21:41:18] <wyatt8740> berkhan: I believe that is possible, at least according to kernel documentation
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• 1744[21:41:33] <wyatt8740> but I do not do it that way just because that's an extra headache. Let me peek in the docs text again and see if I can help
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• 1751[21:42:51] <ratrace> in my personal opinion, live patching is just another form of snakeoil and way for these companies to make money
• 1752[21:43:01] <wyatt8740> ^
• 1753[21:43:13] <ratrace> no server can be expected to have 100% uptime. there's always some kind of fault waiting to happen somewhere.
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• 1755[21:43:35] <ratrace> disks, ram, psu/voltage hiccups that break the mobo, cpu, .....
• 1756[21:43:58] <ratrace> so critical systems must be designed with failover in mind, and the ability to upgrade step-wise with essentially no observable downtime.
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• 1758[21:44:05] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 1759[21:44:38] <berkhan> ratrace: you are right and I asked them what is the reason keeping +90 days for a workstation. I guess they also don't really know the reason and wanted me to search about the topic
• 1760[21:44:44] <legonick> It's 100% uptime until it's not! LOL.
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• 1762[21:45:43] <sney> replacing the running kernel without rebooting is one of those things that's always 5 years away
• 1763[21:46:04] <wyatt8740> ^ year of the linux desktop
• 1764[21:46:07] *** Quits: martinus__ (~martin@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
• 1765[21:46:09] <wyatt8740> same way
• 1766[21:46:13] <ratrace> berkhan: my workstation is also 90 days uptime. I killed that uptime few days ago with a kernel upgrade. I don't upgrade for every kernel, I read the changelogs and decide how important that is for my servers and workstations
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• 1768[21:46:32] <wyatt8740> that's what i consider prudent as well; my workstation also does that
• 1769[21:46:41] <hagbard_> kexec can help shorten the downtime when updating a kernel
• 1770[21:46:51] <ratrace> that way I can skip upgrades for situations that don't affect me. I also track the upstream LTS, I don't rely on packaged kernel
• 1771[21:47:04] <sney> and modern systems (at least those without enterprise disk/network controllers that take forever to load their firmware) boot so quickly that there's barely an advantage anymore
• 1772[21:47:14] <berkhan> That's also what I do in my ThinkPad LOL `23:46:45 up 37 days`
• 1773[21:47:34] <wyatt8740> my record on my thinkpad is 118 days i t hink
• 1774[21:47:37] <wyatt8740> *i think
• 1775[21:47:54] <berkhan> Just started to read the kernel doc. Thank you for sending it
• 1776[21:48:06] <wyatt8740> np, that whole directory is nice
• 1777[21:48:10] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 1778[21:48:29] <wyatt8740> the .rst files can be read as text as well
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• 1783[21:49:32] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 1784[21:49:52] <wyatt8740> though realistically i just reboot
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• 1790[21:52:01] <wyatt8740> see also replaced-url
• 1791[21:52:16] <berkhan> Really thank all of you for all mind opening suggestions. I'll make a quick conversation let's see how it'll go. In my mind, suggesting a maintenance window will work for each critical kernel updates but, otherwise, /non-sense/ like most of you said.
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• 1795[21:53:06] <wyatt8740> "Since Stretch the stock kernel can be used without changes"
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• 1797[21:56:17] <berkhan> I'm also curious what happens to GNOME or other critical running components (systemd, LXC, KVM)? Would they get updated in runtime when I run `apt-get update`?
• 1798[21:57:03] <wyatt8740> nope
• 1799[21:57:09] <wyatt8740> i highly doubt it
• 1800[21:57:10] <sney> apt-get update only updates the package cache
• 1801[21:57:17] <wyatt8740> although if you killed and restarted those programs they would
• 1802[21:57:22] <wyatt8740> after *upgrade
• 1803[21:57:23] <berkhan> So, I need to restart the service
• 1804[21:57:37] <wyatt8740> apt-get update followed by apt-get upgrade is how you'd updatethe actual installed software
• 1805[21:57:40] <wyatt8740> but yeah
• 1806[21:57:47] <sney> upgrade will replace the files on disk of whatever package is upgraded, so it depends on what's in ram really. usually you need to restart a service/application/whatever
• 1807[21:57:58] <wyatt8740> ^
• 1808[21:58:06] <wyatt8740> unless it's just a cron script or something
• 1809[21:58:28] <wyatt8740> or udev rule
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• 1811[21:59:09] <wyatt8740> the existing sw would continue running until killed/closed though
• 1812[21:59:28] <wyatt8740> probably without issues (although if they try to load stuff that wasn't in RAM already that can cause issues)
• 1813[21:59:37] <wyatt8740> i had that happen with libreoffice last week actually
• 1814[22:00:06] <wyatt8740> took an embarrassingly long time for me to realize what the issue was
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• 1820[22:04:13] <berkhan> wyatt8740: thank you! Planning to write a post at the end of my research. I might share in here but will take some time to publish.
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• 1826[22:06:47] <wyatt8740> i'd be interested in seeing your conclusions, although I often forget to check in on IRC
• 1827[22:06:49] <wyatt8740> :|
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