74[01:24:51] <dbristow> What is the package name of llvm/clang so that it will install everything I need to set up LLVM, I'd like the packaged version, not a custom repo
75[01:25:34] <dbristow> I'd like to install all the distro packages for whichever languages LLVM currently supports, presumably at least C and C++
76[01:25:43] <dbristow> And their associated libraries and such
77[01:26:27] *** Quits: uvolmer (~uvolmer@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
78[01:26:33] <sney> hmm, looks like it's probably clang-tools
79[01:27:12] * dvs is glad it's not crang-tools
80[01:27:23] <sney> ,i clang-tools
81[01:27:38] <sney> ah, no bot.
82[01:28:11] <H-var> I have an issue with debian - it keeps on permanently locking up at random times. How can I track down the source of the problem?
83[01:29:19] <dbristow> Hmmm, I had to install clang as well.
90[01:33:57] <sney> H-var: try to make it less random. test things and see if you can reproduce crashes or similar symptoms. and maybe stick something like rsyslog on a rpi so you can collect your logs on a separate machine.
107[01:43:14] <superstar64> can someone explain to me why `.deb` files are `.ar` files that contain `.tar` files? why have archive files inside archive files?
115[01:44:32] <H-var> but when I leave it with the apps running constantly, and taking up to 50% cpu at all times, that's when it locks up
116[01:44:39] <H-var> probably an overheating issue?
117[01:44:42] <Tenkawa> superstar64: there ya go
118[01:44:48] <dvs> H-var: but memtest is doing something so it isn't idling
119[01:45:07] <Tenkawa> H-var: what kind of machine?
120[01:45:20] <superstar64> that doesn't explain why
121[01:45:38] <superstar64> why not just a single tar file for a package?
122[01:45:44] <H-var> mini pc. It's beelink with an atom cpu inside
123[01:46:00] <Tenkawa> superstar64: because they felt like it?
124[01:46:16] <zykotick9> superstar64: <channeling crystal ball> note a tar file isn't "compressed" its just a collection of files. ar is a compression "I believe".
125[01:46:46] <Tenkawa> zykotick9: I just pasted a article with the entire structure
126[01:47:13] <Tenkawa> H-var: out of curiosity... whats your sysctl -a | grep swappiness ?
127[01:48:02] <Tenkawa> if its pushing the vm off to swap a lot that could push the machine fairly harrd
128[01:48:06] <Tenkawa> er hard
129[01:48:09] <H-var> integrated sd card as a storage device. I've actually already created a return request on amazon because of this issue. From my experience, it usually overheating, and bad cpu management that causes lockups
130[01:48:17] <Tenkawa> even if its not doing too much
131[01:48:54] <superstar64> so it because they wanted to allow for an uncompressed control archive and a compressed data archive?
132[01:49:00] <superstar64> or other combinations?
133[01:49:56] *** CommunistWolf is now known as CapitalistWolf
134[01:49:57] <Tenkawa> superstar64: the explaination on the manpage here gives more context:
136[01:50:08] *** CapitalistWolf is now known as lupine
137[01:50:24] *** lupine is now known as CommunistWolf
138[01:50:25] <H-var> tenkawa: command not found
139[01:50:48] <Tenkawa> H-var: you got to use sudo
140[01:50:55] <superstar64> "File sizes are limited to 10 ASCII decimal digits, allowing for up to approximately 9536.74 MiB member files"
141[01:50:55] <superstar64> this seems future proof
142[01:51:13] <H-var> tenkawa: 60
143[01:51:59] <Tenkawa> H-var: try editing /etc/sysctl.conf and setting that down to like 10 and run sudo sysctl -p
144[01:52:14] <Tenkawa> lte it run for a little while and see if the tepm changes
145[01:52:22] <Tenkawa> er temp
146[01:53:01] <H-var> I think I cannot recommend intel to anyone anymore, especially atom cpu. I will change it with ryzen 5 3550H.
147[01:53:05] <H-var> mini pc
148[01:53:21] <Tenkawa> we have to tweak stuff like this a lot for non-x86 soc's
149[01:53:51] <Tenkawa> to tune every ounce we can get out of them and reduce heat
150[01:54:44] <H-var> you can order a ryzen 5 3550H mini pc for 240$ from China, + I'll take 16gb 2400mhz ddr4 sodimm ram for 40$, and 1tb nvme drive for 87$.
151[01:54:52] <Tenkawa> my last mini-itx was probably 10+ years ago now
152[01:55:31] <Tenkawa> my current non-mac x86 is a 12 core hp laptop i7
153[01:55:34] <Tenkawa> :)
154[01:56:14] <Tenkawa> er 12 thread
155[01:56:20] <H-var> tenkawa I think it's the nano-itx platform
156[01:56:33] <Tenkawa> oh nano.. those were fun
157[01:56:39] <H-var> the mini pc format is usually within 15cm box limits
158[01:56:59] <Tenkawa> pain in the back to work on though
161[01:58:47] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
162[01:59:11] <H-var> don't stay with your back bent for too long
163[02:02:16] <Tenkawa> lol
164[02:02:21] <H-var> ryzen 5 3550H cpu is actually insane - it's using so little power, it can be placed into a mini pc computer (35w), and it gives out almost 91% of power of an intel core i7 8700k desktop cpu (95w), and if you want to save on power even more, you can take ryzen 5 3500U which is only 15w, and reaches up to 80% of the mentioned intel cpu
172[02:04:23] <Tenkawa> (yes its a gaming laptop originally.. although I bought it for development)
173[02:04:50] <growly> hi everyone, i'm having a problem with the installer. I get "no kernel modules found" when trying to install and subsequently my network card driver is not loaded, so I cannot continue installation. the module i need is e1000e (common). i've tried a testing (daily release) netinst image, a testing (bullseye alpha 3) netinst image, a testing (daily release) DVD image, and the 10.7 netinst image. all do the
174[02:04:56] <growly> same thing
175[02:06:50] <sney> growly: how did you create the usb? many common tools (rufus, etcher) will mangle the installer and can create the problem you describe
176[02:07:37] <Tenkawa> sney: this sounds like proprietary firmware blob missing
179[02:07:53] <sney> Tenkawa: "no kernel modules found" is not the firmware error, no.
180[02:07:54] <slop> hi all <3
181[02:08:05] <Tenkawa> good point
182[02:08:19] <Tenkawa> man I'm getting sleepy sloppy early
183[02:08:21] <sney> 'modinfo e1000e' shows no Firmware headers eitehr
184[02:08:50] <Tenkawa> i can tell a storm is coming in
185[02:08:56] <Tenkawa> its hitting me hard
186[02:09:56] <Tenkawa> surprised he got ths far with a broke write though..
187[02:10:39] <sney> it's not like an unsynced write, the rufus tool unpacks the iso and recreates it. so all the pieces are there but not in the way d-i expects.
188[02:11:10] <Tenkawa> yeah and if it wasnt synced possibly before eject too
189[02:11:39] <Tenkawa> thats why I always just dd and be done
191[02:12:43] <sney> install guide says to use cp, but that and dd and cat all work fine, win32diskimager is the rec for those coming from windows. or in short, don't use a tool that modifies the image.
195[02:13:26] *** Quits: sparky4 (~sparky4@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
196[02:13:28] <sney> I think the installer team or the debian-cd team should probably consider distributing the images as *.img instead of *.iso, so this wouldn't be an issue
197[02:13:42] <Tenkawa> indeed
198[02:13:45] <sney> why? it just copies the bits to the flash drive. no fuss. cp debian-foo.iso /dev/sdX;sync
199[02:14:10] <Tenkawa> because cp "itself" actually has different io backend than dd
200[02:14:20] <Tenkawa> to the underlying os
201[02:14:29] <Tenkawa> it "can" do different things
202[02:14:48] <Tenkawa> especially once you get into filesystems
203[02:15:00] <Tenkawa> thats where cp can burn you
204[02:15:08] <sney> sure, and this isn't a filesystem operation. :)
205[02:15:22] <Tenkawa> it still has to follow the rules
206[02:15:31] <Tenkawa> its still block io
207[02:16:52] <slop> Hi all, I have a new debian install thats hanging on AMD drivers/firmware - how do you recommend getting those?
208[02:17:01] <sney> !firmware image
209[02:17:01] <dpkg> There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from replaced-url
210[02:17:13] <slop> <3
211[02:17:36] <Tenkawa> cheers for now.. time to go get some rest and grumble at this snowstorm
214[02:17:52] <sney> if the hardware is newer than what's reasonably supported by the 4.19 kernel, you may need to take a different approach, but try the firmware image first.
222[02:21:37] <slop> the guides are GREAT if you can get network access
223[02:22:12] <slop> like, it showed what was needed step by step but I couldnt get a terminal with access :D
224[02:22:21] <growly> @sney - thanks for your reply; i did `cp /path/to/image /dev/sda` where /dev/sda is my flash drive block device
225[02:22:27] <sney> yeah, the installer environment doesn't give you much.
226[02:22:31] <slop> was trying to add non-free and contrib and go that route
227[02:22:33] <sney> growly: did you 'sync' afterwards?
228[02:22:57] <growly> i did a reboot; i expected it to block on sync anyway?
229[02:23:29] <sney> reboot should sync, but I always do it manually for any removable devices
230[02:24:18] <growly> hmmm
231[02:24:39] <growly> well i just did it again and followed up with sync, which returned instantly, so i'm not sure if it's worth retrying
232[02:24:59] <growly> but it seems weird to me that all four of these are broken in the same way
233[02:25:27] <sney> e1000e is definitely in the buster installer and doesn't require extra firmware, so the problem is with *something* at your end
234[02:25:37] <growly> interesting
235[02:25:58] <sney> how many times have you reused that particular flash drive? got another one?
236[02:26:15] <growly> i used it a couple of days ago no problem. maybe if i blow away the partition table or use dd
237[02:26:41] <growly> oh interesting
238[02:26:43] *** Quits: BenNZ (~Ben__@replaced-ip) (Quit: Everytime I think IQ's must have dropped recently, I remember that this is the internet)
239[02:28:27] <sney> there's a reason those things are 2 for $5 in the checkout at staples, they're not expected to last. dd or wipefs isn't going to do anything that cp to the device didn't already do.
240[02:29:59] <slop> :D tgats great
241[02:30:02] <slop> thats*
242[02:30:34] <slop> 32 gib devices for 5.99 and I am like I MUST BUY AT LEAST 3
243[02:31:10] <growly> it strikes me as weird that the flash drive is 16GB, but parted gives me "the driver descriptor says the physical block size is 2048 bytes, but Linux says it is 512 bytes", and reports 64 GB
244[02:31:21] <growly> very weird
245[02:31:43] <sney> that sounds like one of the bootleg ones that used electrical tricks to lie about the size
246[02:31:44] <cjoke> howto disable sddm on boot ?
247[02:32:18] <sney> cjoke: systemctl disable sddm. or if you want to switch to a different display manager, I think it's dpkg-reconfigure display-manager
249[02:33:00] <growly> ok this weirdness only occurs _after_ i cp the image on
250[02:33:06] <cjoke> sney: I want to boot in text, as I configured in grub, but mate and debian is new to me, I did look in systemctl and I thought I had to run --system.
251[02:33:25] <sney> cjoke: when you run systemctl as root, --system is the default.
252[02:34:16] <sney> for more about disabling things in systemd, this blog post is nice: replaced-url
253[02:34:49] <robobox> heh wikipedia is 20 years old
254[02:34:51] <growly> does everyon still hate systemd or have we moved on now?
255[02:34:56] <cjoke> sney: it dont recognize sddm as a operation :/
265[02:36:45] <sney> growly: most peoples' reasons for hating systemd were stupid, while there are some legitimate criticisms, the stupid reasons never really stop coming around. it's not as bad as it was ~6 years ago though.
296[02:53:01] <gholinbrown> thanks i'm just going to purge mono.
297[02:53:15] <sney> monopd is not related to mono, despite the name. see 'apt show monopd'.
298[02:53:40] <sney> but maybe you did something like 'apt install mono*' accidentally.
299[02:53:59] <gholinbrown> i think i did.
300[02:54:14] <sney> hungry globs, heh
301[02:54:30] <gholinbrown> i wanted the sec certs . the actual software is just icing
302[02:56:59] <gholinbrown> shux. appears i must install mono for those anyway
303[02:57:15] *** semeion is now known as mnemonic
304[02:59:10] <gholinbrown> btw it would be nice if password managers didn't require deps. for example if you acquire the debian dvd, and install offline. then you find out you can't access your passwords without internet, that's not fun
305[03:00:00] *** Quits: kawaiipunk (~from@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving this Club)
306[03:00:35] <sney> just one of those things you have to plan ahead for, I suppose. dvd1 has a huge number of packages but it can't contain everything.
308[03:01:17] *** Quits: Tobbi (~Tobbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
309[03:01:45] <gholinbrown> sure but password manager stores all your passwords. including those for vpns/proxies
310[03:02:40] <sney> only you can prevent catch-22s in your own environment
311[03:02:43] <gholinbrown> so it's actually asking users to connect potentially through a bad channel, just to gets the deps for none other than the password manager
312[03:02:57] <gholinbrown> yeah pencil paper sney but a password manager come on now
313[03:03:04] *** Quits: T-zef (~tyzef@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
314[03:03:10] <sney> if you have a specific bug report against a package, file it
315[03:03:44] <gholinbrown> does debian have a native password manager?
326[03:11:20] <gholinbrown> last question. are the packages we download for example through apt-get , are these checked locally to be what was expected? and if it does, surely those hashes are pre-secured in the initial installation or ar they literally fetched across http at the time you give an apt command
331[03:13:59] <sney> checksums are in the package. if you're concerned about http, https has been built in to apt for some time, and most mirrors support it too, so feel free to tweak sources.list accordingly
332[03:14:03] <sney> !debsums
333[03:14:03] <dpkg> debsums is a utility that will check a package's files against their checksums. The "-a" argument will instruct it to also check configuration files: "apt install debsums; debsums -a -s". Almost all packages come with md5sums included in the package or apt will have generated them for you; generate missing ones with "apt-get install --reinstall `debsums -l`". Ask me about <md5sums>.
353[03:26:31] <themill> ghormoon: you're not subject to MITM attacks with apt downloading packages, no matter whether you use http, https or some other protocol
354[03:26:36] <themill> !secure-apt
355[03:26:37] <dpkg> [apt-secure] Starting with version 0.6, <APT> performs signature checking of the Release file for all archives. See replaced-url
369[03:32:29] <ryouma> what physical sector size should one expect from most consumer drives? all of mine are NOT showing 4096 when i run fdisk -l. logical and physical are showing as the same. just wnat to know if this is normal.
371[03:33:34] <ryouma> (also want to know if debian does or requires anything special about this, such as in mount options or partitioning tools or something)
376[03:36:26] <sney> ryouma: to the second point, IME with a wide range of hardware, I've never had to do anything special to get normal/expected performance from any disk I've owned. there are certainly tweaks people can do to make things faster/more efficient, but for general "works" I've never seen a disk that conflicted with the defaults.
382[03:38:14] <ryouma> that also answers my next question about relatime vs. lazytime vs. noatime on extn vs. btrfs and various types of drives
383[03:40:08] <sney> and looking at fdisk -l on my hypervisor: mechanical disks report 4096B sectors, SSDs report 512B, and the logical zvols it created for kvm guests are 8192B.
384[03:40:21] <sney> I remember hearing something about SSD firmware possibly lying about this as well
385[03:41:13] <ryouma> i didn't think my spinning rust drives were /that/ old, but maybe they are
386[03:41:26] <ryouma> but if it doesn't matter much, great
483[05:06:59] <b00b_bot> hi. im doing several server tasks on my vps atm. i did a portscan with nmap for example but it only outputs, the ports of the webserver im maintaining, ssh is missing, ehy is that?
484[05:08:29] <sney> vps providers often implement a firewall that makes it harder for botnets to find your listening ssh daemon
486[05:09:03] <sney> 'ss -lt' from the vps itself will show what services are actually listening
487[05:10:11] <b00b_bot> sney: oh i didnt know that. yeah localy isnt a problem
488[05:10:31] <rk4> presumably ssh $ip works? what of nmap -Pn -p 22 $ip?
489[05:11:04] <b00b_bot> rk4: i dont use the default ssh port
490[05:11:22] <rk4> well then sub in whatever port you're using.
491[05:11:33] <b00b_bot> but i will try with the custom one
492[05:12:43] *** Quits: kini (~kini@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
493[05:13:01] <b00b_bot> yes that shows me the port is open, but the problem is, that someone told me my custom ssh port before... i dont know how he found out what it is...
498[05:15:18] <sney> there's only 65535 tcp ports, if someone wants to find out what port you're using for ssh all they need is your ip and some time. but also, it doesn't matter if someone knows your ssh port, if your sshd is secured in a sane way
499[05:16:17] <sney> it can get a little annoying when botnets discover it, but even then it only eats cpu cycles
500[05:17:18] <b00b_bot> rk4: i used the default one
501[05:17:22] <sney> they called it "secure shell" for a reason.
502[05:17:33] <rk4> b00b_bot: which was...
503[05:17:47] <b00b_bot> sney: yeah i know.. but i was curious how he found out (he wont tell me...)
508[05:19:11] <sney> were I to do it, I'd use check_ssh from monitoring-plugins, and script bash to run it through the 22,222,2222s and then just count from 1 to 65535. and then go have a sandwich, and come back to the result. and I'm not even a h4x0r
509[05:19:17] <rk4> b00b_bot: well then, i don't think your ssh port is on the default list of ports scanned then
510[05:20:06] <rk4> 'By default, Nmap scans the most common 1,000 ports for each protocol.
512[05:20:31] <b00b_bot> ok thx so far ;) next question: i would like to force all users to wait a specific amount of seconds before they can run any commands after the logged in onto the server, no matter if physical or over ssh or anything else.
518[05:21:26] <dpkg> Slow down for a bit! Are you sure that you need to jump through that particular hoop to achieve your goal? We suspect you don't, so why don't you back up a bit and tell us about the overall objective... We know that people often falsely diagnose problems because they are too close to them -- it's easy to miss that there is a better way to proceed. See replaced-url
519[05:22:13] <slop> what will that gain? any attacker worth their salt is not going to get in and make noise.
520[05:22:46] <b00b_bot> when i do with a simple sleep 10 in /etc/profile it can be canceled with a simple crtl+c
521[05:22:56] <foxide> b00b_bot: That doesn't answer the "why."
522[05:23:30] <b00b_bot> foxide: doesnt matter
523[05:23:35] <sney> trying to implement stupid stuff is a good way to improve one's linux skills
524[05:23:36] <foxide> Yes, it actually does.
525[05:23:48] <foxide> It really, really does.
526[05:23:51] <sney> ofc if that's the goal then it also precludes IRC randos giving one the answer :V
527[05:23:56] <b00b_bot> foxide: for you?
528[05:24:16] <foxide> When you have multiple users going "what, why?" it might be a good idea to listen.
529[05:24:33] <foxide> So, yes, the why matters.
530[05:24:46] <b00b_bot> foxide: answering your questing doesnt help me getting my question answered
531[05:25:05] <themill> it does
532[05:25:07] <foxide> It certainly does.
533[05:25:16] <foxide> b00b_bot: What won't help you get your question answered is your attitude.
534[05:25:33] <slop> it sounds like your goal is to harden your debian install(s) - have you checked this out: replaced-url
535[05:25:37] <b00b_bot> foxide: ok how is this.. the users should relax 20 seconds after log in to get a calm mind
538[05:26:00] <themill> b00b_bot: sleep 20; is perfect for that usage.
539[05:26:13] <b00b_bot> themill: no that can be canceld be everyone
540[05:26:19] <b00b_bot> they should be forced
541[05:26:26] <themill> b00b_bot: that's not an issue for the use case you describe however
542[05:26:32] <b00b_bot> forcing relaxation
543[05:26:54] <themill> b00b_bot: I'm bored now. Just thought I'd put that out there
544[05:27:17] <slop> How many users are we talking about logging in?
545[05:27:35] <b00b_bot> 20 lines of replies... how many solving answers would fit there...?
546[05:27:45] <foxide> b00b_bot: None, because what you're trying to do is idiotic.
547[05:27:50] <b00b_bot> slop: 12
548[05:28:03] <b00b_bot> foxide: ignore. bye ;)
549[05:28:07] <rk4> so basically the room thinks you're trying to do some weird shit, any of us could achieve what you want, but we're not inclined to help since you're not inclined to help us understand the why
555[05:31:31] <slop> For hardening, I recommend following these steps first. replaced-url
556[05:33:06] <slop> ah, he is gone. still odd wanting to do that annoyance for a very small group of users. Id think hardening and restricting user permissions would be a better route than delays.
557[05:33:10] <slop> anyway.
558[05:33:31] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
559[05:35:05] <foxide> I can
560[05:35:16] <foxide> 't fathom a single use case where that would be valuable.
561[05:36:05] <slop> agreed. other than wanting someone to replace you quickly.
609[06:33:31] <sney> and on linux your print "server" is used for local printing operations too. so even if it was just your pc and 1 direct attached printer you would still need cups.
612[06:37:30] <growly> so, i've now tried bootdisks from three different debian installers from two different machines on two different flash drives. the problem is either my pc or the way debian is generating the images. i doubt the latter because then someone else will have run into this problem by now
630[06:57:22] <growly> iflema: i've tried both cp x.iso /dev/sdx and dd
631[06:57:24] <growly> with sync
632[06:57:38] <iflema> conv=sync
633[06:57:55] <growly> to dd?
634[06:57:57] <iflema> m
635[06:58:05] <growly> sure why not
636[06:58:11] <iflema> status=progress
637[06:58:14] <iflema> :D
638[06:58:50] <growly> the actual command i used was 'sudo dd bs=4M if=/home/arya/Downloads/debian-bullseye-DI-alpha3-amd64-netinst.iso of=/dev/sdb status=progress oflag=sync'
639[06:59:11] <growly> well. the last one. i also tried bs=512, no flags
641[06:59:57] *** Quits: growly (~arya@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
642[07:00:30] <zerocool> guys, somehow mariadb-common is cock blocking me from upgrading. i said f it and just removed all mariadb but it still isn't removing
665[07:19:33] <growly> the only weird thing i've noticed is that the logical sector size of the filesystem when you dd the .iso to the flash drive is 2048 instead of 512 b, which means the partition table doesn't make much sense
853[10:56:14] *** Quits: EmleyMoor (42b789682f@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
854[10:58:02] <muffindrake> I successfully set the program using xdg-mime default pcmanfm.desktop inode/directory, but chromium apparently does not use xdg-open for this purpose, as it continues to use nautilus instead after restarting it
855[10:58:45] <muffindrake> Er, now I'm not sure whether that's the correct program to use
857[11:00:24] <muffindrake> ... what's the correct way to set a default program for a mime type on a DE-less system in debian sid? All the information I'm finding on this appears to be outdated or wrong.
869[11:09:33] <alex11> muffindrake, maybe this helps you replaced-url
870[11:10:52] <alex11> muffindrake, however, you might also be hitting a bug; maybe ask #debian-next on oftc
871[11:11:13] <growly> brigand: asus prime x299-deluxe ii, intel i7 9940x, 128gb ram, samsung 970 pro nvme ssd, lsi sas raid card which forces me to use legacy boot room along with uefi
873[11:11:26] <growly> tomorrow i will take out the lsi card and try using no CSM at all
874[11:11:45] <growly> but this is clutching at straws
875[11:11:59] *** Quits: freebench (~freebench@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
876[11:12:28] <growly> yeah unfortunately installing a uefi system through the legacy installer mode seems to be quite a lot more complicated than the push-button walkthrough i did last time or, at least, was expecting
879[11:14:04] <muffindrake> Hitting a bug with setting a default application? I created ~/.local/share/applications/mimeapps.list and put in the content as should be correct according to that wiki entry, but the change is not reflected when I use xxdg-open on any directory.
949[12:08:58] <vanfanel> hi! I am trying to access an vnc server (tightvnc) from the local network. I first launch it with "vncsever", then create an ssh tunnel with: ssh -L 59000:localhost:5901 -C -N -l <username> <local-network-ip>
950[12:09:50] <oxek> !tell haba713 bat
951[12:10:01] *** Quits: dselect (~dselect@replaced-ip) (Quit: ouch... that hurt)
952[12:10:01] <vanfanel> however I get, on vncviewer I get: vncviewer: ConnectToTcpAddr: connect: Connection refused
953[12:10:09] <oxek> !bat
954[12:10:09] <dpkg> [Basic Apt* Troubleshooting]. To diagnose your problem, we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use replaced-url
977[12:38:28] *** Quits: Jad (~Nashmi@replaced-ip) (Quit: Benefits I derive from freedom are largely the result of the uses of freedom by others, and mostly of those uses of freedom that I could never avail myself of.)
983[12:43:42] <relipse> Hi, I'm on Debian Jessie, how exactly do I backup my stuff, I am on linode so I clicked the take snapshot, but is there anything else I need to do before I upgrade?
1001[12:49:16] <ratrace> kwami: suggestions for what precisely? your question isn't clear
1002[12:49:44] <daysun> thanks oxek
1003[12:49:46] <oxek> daysun: assuming you're on debian 10 (buster) of course
1004[12:49:47] <kwami> Of what can be causing this issue and how can I fix it
1005[12:50:28] <daysun> kwami: lost after each reboot or randomly?
1006[12:50:34] <ratrace> kwami: have you checked the logs to see if there's any message along with a dropped route?
1007[12:50:51] <daysun> never mind
1008[12:50:56] <relipse> Managed hosting is . +$100/month per Linode , my own server is ~$20/month, that's a huge price difference that's why, I know linux well enough to keep the sucker running, but it's time for an upgrade
1009[12:51:10] <kwami> daysun: randomly
1010[12:51:26] <ratrace> kwami: also give us more details. what route? ipv4? v6? how do you lose it? one moment it's there, another it's gone from the list of routes, or it IS three but no packets are going through?
1011[12:52:09] <ratrace> *there
1012[12:53:50] <kwami> ratrace: I set up a route in the interface file wich works perfectly, but after several minutes the route disapear from the route table anda the server turn itself unable to send packets to hosts on another network
1019[12:58:51] <kwami> ratrace: realy, I checked /var/log/syslog
1020[12:59:03] <ratrace> relipse: then you should know exactly wht to back up. image the server has blown up and you have to set it up anew. you back up each "Gee, I wish I had this file from before" you think would happen :)
1027[13:01:08] <ratrace> the main/default debian repos _should_ allow for smooth upgarde. actually, now that I think about it, PHP was a bit problematic because it was installed in parallel, so you'd have to explicitely remove old packages and configs
1028[13:01:20] <ratrace> (the configs are in version specific directories, so keep that in mind)
1039[13:05:39] <ratrace> kwami: and when does the route disappear? after some set time? randomly? do you have before and after exaples of the `ip route` output ?
1040[13:06:19] <ratrace> daysun: apt no, apt-get yes, I don't know about aptitude
1051[13:08:41] <ratrace> relipse: maybe but it's not supported or tested. just to through stretch.
1052[13:09:37] <OzFalcon> Found an interesting race condition with xorg
1053[13:09:47] <ratrace> kwami: do you have networkmanager, or some other network configuration tool that might conflict with ifupdown? a leftover cron debugging or something script that would remove the route?
1054[13:10:27] <ratrace> kwami: there's also systemd-networkd installed on Debian. are you 100% sure it is not enabled or started somehow?
1055[13:10:59] <ratrace> kwami: it'd be super awesome if you could know _precise_ time when the route drops, then pastebin the logs surrounding that time, say a minute before and after
1063[13:14:28] <ratrace> ideally you'll need the logs for the time surrounding the route loss. the logs cna show if some other framework piped up and reset the network
1064[13:16:09] <ratrace> also check if your (r)syslog configuration is default. by default, it logs *.* into /var/log/syslog. if you changed that, then there might be other files with clues. ideally you use the journal.
1077[13:31:42] <relipse> Can someone help me with my sources file, the upgrade guide tells me to rename everything to stretch, but i see a lot of them commented out? What do I do? replaced-url
1078[13:33:31] <ratrace> uncomment them. also comment out third party repos.
1079[13:33:34] <ratrace> !stretch sources.list
1080[13:33:34] <dpkg> A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb replaced-url
1081[13:35:27] <n4dir> relipse: deb-src lines you only need if you plan to compile from source. Most of the time you want to backport a higher version, and for that you would need a different release than the usual one (say testing or sid if you run stable)
1082[13:35:42] <n4dir> as in: it being commented is not unusual
1083[13:36:18] <n4dir> deb cdrom you only need if you install packages from, well, a CD or DVD. If you don't, you can remove it altogether
1084[13:36:37] <relipse> ok is this good?
1085[13:36:41] <n4dir> notesalexp : i got no clue.
1087[13:37:25] <n4dir> relipse: looks good to me, besides the notesalexp entry, no clue about it. The link ratrace gave will offer you something for copy and paste, if you want to be sure
1088[13:38:18] <relipse> n4dir: I don't understand what you mean? What is notesalexp ?
1089[13:38:33] <n4dir> you got such a line in your sources list
1092[13:39:25] <relipse> i removed it can you look at the second link I posted
1093[13:40:02] <ratrace> relipse: is "main" the only component you used?
1094[13:40:20] <n4dir> relipse: i sure can, but really, your best bet is to comment everything in sources.list, copy and paste the entry from the link of ratrace at the top, then go for it
1095[13:40:43] <relipse> ratrace probably I mean that's the only thing in that file
1098[13:41:07] <n4dir> i tend to remove everything i don't need, instead of commenting it out, so i can understand the sources.list at a quick glance. Your choice though
1099[13:41:28] <n4dir> if you have everything commented at the bottom, it is just as clear
1110[13:43:50] <unixbsd> anyone capable to run stratagus with strategic games? where to place the data files?
1111[13:44:16] <ratrace> unixbsd: wrong channel?
1112[13:44:25] <n4dir> i sure would, but, you know, there is always something someone could oversee. So i hesitate to shout a "GO", and then be the bad guy. relipse To me it looks good
1113[13:44:32] <ratrace> relipse: I would enable all components, unless you're 100% sure "main" is the ONLY one you've possibly ever used
1114[13:44:52] <n4dir> i would enable contrib and non-free only if i knew i need it
1115[13:44:58] <ratrace> enabling the components won't automagically install unwanted software, so it's safe for _upgrade_
1116[13:45:32] <n4dir> if jessie worked fine being free i see no reason why stable shouldn't ...
1117[13:46:23] <ratrace> non-free probably isn't needed, but contrib could be. is there harm in enabling them for the upgrade?
1125[13:49:19] <n4dir> ratrace: to be done with this i agree with you. To me it doesn't matter that much, and i hardly am able to use main only anyway.
1126[13:49:24] <ratrace> most guides suck, and this one ain't an exception
1127[13:49:56] <relipse> ok i'm going to go upgrade
1128[13:50:00] <relipse> thanks for your help
1129[13:50:01] <ratrace> n4dir: unless I've gone crazy, I think there was at some point a situation where zfs components where spread between main and contrib, which I thought was rather unusual.
1130[13:50:07] <n4dir> yee-haw ! good luck relipse
1131[13:50:40] <n4dir> ratrace: ah, yeah, hence i don't wanna discuss. I live in my world, with my problems. And i know only that much (or: little :-) )
1132[13:50:40] <ratrace> relipse: before you do....
1133[13:51:15] <relipse> Does this look good? replaced-url
1134[13:51:18] <ratrace> relipse: linode used to have situations in the past where "snapshots" were supposedly done but when you needed them, they were broken. I'd _never_ trust my provider to create backups. if you can, make sure you have your own, independent backups
1135[13:51:54] <relipse> i already backed up my databases
1161[13:59:30] <jim> wheezy is 7... is this asdfasd?
1162[13:59:42] <daysun> relipse: and uname -a and see if it's says jessie there
1163[13:59:54] <daysun> jim: asdfqwerty
1164[13:59:55] <n4dir> daysun: i wouldn't bet, but i seem to recall upgrade doesn't install or remove packages not yet on the system, dist-upgrade does that if needed. In practice i just do upgrade first, then dist-upgrade.
1170[14:01:07] *** Quits: raekuul (pokota@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1171[14:01:16] <jim> I was talking to a guy yesterday who was thinking about upgrading from wheezy to buster, to make sure he could mount a windows share
1172[14:01:22] <n4dir> if it was me and i was not sure if i would need it in the future, i would comment it for now, and remove it when being sure later
1173[14:01:34] <relipse> ok i'll comment it out
1174[14:01:44] *** Quits: JohnML (~john1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1175[14:01:54] <jim> last I knew, he had backed up his hd
1185[14:04:46] <ratrace> what jim said pretty much, first upgrade current distro to latest ...... assuming the repos are still available for jessie
1186[14:04:50] <raekuul> daysun: upgrade by itself only changes the packages already installed. If A.1 depends on B.1 but A.2 depends on both B.2 and C.1, regular upgrade won't upgrade A.1 because it needs a new package, but dist-upgrade will install C.1 in order to upgrade A.1 to A.2
1187[14:05:12] <jim> isn't he on wheezy right now?
1188[14:05:51] <jim> aka debian 7
1189[14:06:17] <n4dir> jessie
1190[14:06:18] <ratrace> I thought it was jessie
1191[14:06:24] <ratrace> they said 8.1
1192[14:06:31] *** Quits: Grldfrdom (uid391113@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1194[14:06:44] <n4dir> that back and forth with versions and nicknames of version is killing me softly
1195[14:06:48] <ratrace> which BY THE WAY.... just reinforces my argument earlier that they should NOT be running a public server without getting some basic knowledge first.
1196[14:07:14] <relipse> no i'm on jessie
1197[14:07:28] <relipse> !codenames is wrong
1198[14:07:30] <dpkg> ...but codenames is already something else...
1199[14:07:48] <relipse> !codenames
1200[14:07:48] <dpkg> Debian release codenames are buzz (1.1), rex (1.2), bo (1.3), hamm (2.0), slink (2.1), potato (2.2), woody (3.0), sarge (3.1), etch (4.0), lenny (5.0), squeeze (6.0), wheezy (7) jessie (8) stretch (9) buster (10) and sid=Unstable. "lsb_release -sc" (lsb-release package) will display a Debian system's codename. replaced-url
1201[14:07:50] <daysun> raekuul: so which one should you use? :P
1202[14:07:56] <daysun> upgrade or dist-upgrade
1203[14:08:03] <ratrace> that server apparently saw zero upgrades and is vulnerable AF..... if not already pwnt. people should really get licensed before taking out a 20t server truck on the internet highway.... you'll kill someone.
1204[14:08:15] *** Quits: jpe (~jp@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1205[14:08:22] <ratrace> _literally_ (botnets attacking medical hardware)
1206[14:08:22] <n4dir> daysun: i was always told first upgrade, then dist-upgrade. I never thought about the why.
1207[14:08:24] <raekuul> Which one *should* I use, or which one *do* I use?
1208[14:08:37] <ratrace> raekuul: apt upgrade does it all.
1209[14:08:38] <relipse> are you guys talking to me or someone else?
1210[14:08:46] <ratrace> relipse: I was referring to you :)
1211[14:08:49] <n4dir> on stable both ain't that exciting anyway
1212[14:08:51] <daysun> n4dir: dist-upgrade does upgrade for you. it's pointless to do both
1213[14:09:09] <ratrace> upgrade jessie to max first, then switch to stretch and apt update, apt upgrade
1214[14:09:09] <n4dir> daysun: might be. I was told, over and over, and hence that is what i do
1215[14:09:12] <relipse> so what should I do, i'm about to upgrade to stretch
1223[14:11:09] <daysun> dvs: does it depend on whether you're using apt or apt-get?
1224[14:11:33] <dvs> daysun: the release notes usualy does apt-get
1225[14:11:40] <relipse> i already ran apt-get update; apt-get upgrade
1226[14:11:48] <relipse> under jessie
1227[14:11:54] <relipse> so i should be good to go
1228[14:11:59] <hejux> debian is so fucked up. why apt and apt-get
1229[14:11:59] <raekuul> daysun: depends on if you're scripting the update process or not. apt for interactive use, apt-get for scripted use
1230[14:12:01] <daysun> I read that apt full-upgrade upgrades first before doing a "dist-upgrade". It differs from apt-get if iirc where you got to apt-get update first
1231[14:12:07] <dvs> relipse: no, you need dist-upgrade as well
1232[14:12:28] <relipse> dvs: so you want me to change my sources back to jessie and run apt-get dist-upgrade ?
1251[14:16:30] <hejux> n4dir:that's why i stick with PACMAN
1252[14:16:37] *** Quits: binofaata_ (~binofaata@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1253[14:16:39] <n4dir> ha ha. yeah, good idea
1254[14:16:48] <raekuul> daysun: in practice 'apt upgrade' and 'apt full-upgrade' differ on how they handle conflicting upgrades. regular upgrade preserves what's already installed, full-upgrade will remove older versions that prohibit newer versions
1349[14:37:33] <jim> if so, copy the file into your home dir
1350[14:38:04] <relipse> is this bad? E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
1351[14:38:12] <jelly> relipse, in general the release upgrade will fare better if you use the vendor (distro) version of config file, or if you immediately put your custom changes into the new one
1352[14:38:39] <relipse> the only error was I couldn't upgrade phpmyadmin
1353[14:38:41] <jelly> relipse, the lines before that would be useful.
1367[14:40:27] <jim> then let it replace with the package mgr's version, then when the upgrade is finished, look at both versions, and you should also see the changes as reported from just when the dist-upgrade started (I dunno where else that's stored, except it might be in an email to and from root
1380[14:42:16] <jelly> relipse, make sure there are no dpkg and apt inconsistencies, reboot, then see if things still work, then think about stretch->buster
1390[14:43:54] <relipse> ok it looks like fail2ban is not working
1391[14:44:04] <ratrace> it has its own logs with probably more clues
1392[14:44:22] <jim> relipse, unfortunately the php language devs did a huge disservice, when they repeatedly released incompatible (features missing, new and incompatble features added) versions of php
1393[14:44:48] *** Quits: eliotome3000 (~eliotime@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1394[14:45:13] <jelly> relipse, first fix dpkg and apt inconsistencies. Then reboot and fix services that need fixing.
1395[14:45:38] <relipse> jelly: can you please tell me how to do that
1396[14:46:12] <jim> systemd has a wonderful way of not being informative (failed with result 'exit code')
1397[14:46:45] <jim> someone should file a bug report for that
1398[14:47:04] <jelly> relipse, I already have. "dpkg --configure -a" and "apt-get -f install"
1400[14:47:30] <ratrace> I don't think that's a bug really. it means the process exited unexpectedly with a nonzero exit code. the process in question, however, is responsible for proper logging
1401[14:47:49] <ratrace> and oftentimes, services are badly configured.
1402[14:47:58] <relipse> fail2ban is not working replaced-url
1403[14:48:03] <jim> ratrace, well, it might be helpful to know what that exit code is
1404[14:48:05] <jelly> relipse, after reboot?
1405[14:48:18] <ratrace> relipse: are you reading the advice you're given here?
1426[14:54:49] <ratrace> and even if you used daemntools. the capabilities of service/process configuration and containment under systemd, currently has NO alternative
1427[14:54:52] <jim> jelly, their last paste doesn't seem to be the output of (say) dpkg --configure -a
1456[15:01:11] <jelly> Jan 17 13:54:37 cworklog.com fail2ban-client[14965]: ERROR Failed during configuration: While reading from '/etc/fail2ban/jail.local' [line 155]: option 'port' in section 'pam-generic' already exists
1457[15:01:25] <relipse> wow good eye again jelly and jim
1493[15:07:02] <relipse> i suppose you are going to tell me rtfrigginQ
1494[15:07:05] <relipse> i suppose you are going to tell me rtfrigginm
1495[15:07:11] <jelly> relipse, if you've chosen to keep own versions of config files, you might have a mix of config files from the old and the new version
1496[15:07:37] <ratrace> well that woudl be a good start, to know the software you're using. back to may argument about you shouldn't be running a public server and you claiming you know linux well enough to keep it running. seems like you have zero clue really.
1523[15:13:43] <jelly> also, it seems you have a copy of the whole jail.conf in jail.local, that's needless; the point of jail.local is to write down minimal changes to defaults that are needed for this machine
1537[15:16:46] <pasiz> brute force attack or fail2ban?
1538[15:16:57] <ratrace> not completely no. it's useless against distributed attacks, and I mostly see those. one IP will try a few times, much less than the tresholds we keep
1539[15:17:31] <jelly> yep, it can't protect against one user being probed from 100,000 different ip addresses
1540[15:17:54] <jelly> and it doesn't do blocking of whole ranges
1541[15:18:23] <jelly> but some probes are not that smart and still get blocked
1543[15:18:26] <ratrace> and from what I've seen in the logs, for example smtp and imap bruteforcers, they try for exactly 4 times per IP as if 5 is some magickal round number treshold lol :)
1544[15:18:43] <jelly> 5 is probably f2b default to block things ;-)
1545[15:19:14] <ratrace> it is, yes. maxretry = 5 in default jail.conf
1546[15:19:23] <pasiz> best practice would be disable password auth
1547[15:19:26] <relipse> ok i've reboote and everything seems fine.
1548[15:19:29] <relipse> d
1549[15:19:37] <ratrace> pasiz: yes, but you can't for all services
1551[15:19:53] <jelly> relipse, good, now you can say you have a stretch installation!
1552[15:20:05] <ratrace> relipse: now do it all over again for stretch -> buster. again, note, you might have issues with php, as the config dir changes
1553[15:20:09] <relipse> finally i can use php 7 syntax!
1557[15:21:12] <jelly> relipse, don't forget to do cleanup, as documented in stretch release notes. apt-get autoremove, and removing obsolete packages
1558[15:21:18] <jelly> !obsolete
1559[15:21:18] <dpkg> If you remove a repository from your sources.list (e.g. removing <dmm>), then you should check what packages you have installed from the other repository. Synaptic and aptitude have a "Obsolete and Locally Created Packages" list. Or, "aptitude search ~o". Note this doesn't include packages that exist in the repo at a different version to the one you have installed; see <not available> <list repositories>.
1560[15:21:30] <relipse> do you have a link to the release notes
1561[15:21:35] <jelly> !stretch release notes
1562[15:21:36] <dpkg> The release notes for Debian 9 "Stretch" are at replaced-url
1564[15:22:25] <jelly> (the same document is linked in /msg dpkg jessie->stretch ; when you're ready for stretch->buster, read also /msg dpkg stretch->buster)
1594[15:37:40] <relipse> if you can just use other sources, what's the shame in that?
1595[15:38:14] <haba713> azeem: yes, i did. it works ok. thanks!
1596[15:38:30] <raekuul> shame? none. guarantees of compatibility and stability? also none
1597[15:39:00] <ratrace> right. and it's not about that. the reason 8.0 won't end up in bullseye is the reason you can't use 8.0 even from another repo, at least not initially
1600[15:39:42] <ratrace> game over really, transitions are frozen
1601[15:39:56] <jelly> !bullseye freeze
1602[15:39:56] <dpkg> The first steps of the <freeze> to release Debian 11 "Bullseye" will start on January 12, 2021. replaced-url
1603[15:40:45] <jelly> !literal bullseye freeze
1604[15:40:45] <dpkg> "bullseye freeze" is "<reply>The first steps of the <freeze> to release Debian 11 "Bullseye" will start on January 12, 2021. replaced-url
1605[15:41:52] <jelly> dpkg, no, bullseye freeze is <reply>the freeze for Debian 11 'bullseye' has begun on 2021-01-13. replaced-url
1646[16:02:47] <jim> separate /var, because logs go there, and the debian package cache goes there too
1647[16:02:58] <ratrace> omarek_: clearly we can't know how big your projects will become and what your future needs will be . as a rule of thumb, 10G suffices for installing a desktop with mostly used programs, and then some. I wouldn't go below 20G personally.
1648[16:03:38] <omarek_> jim: Not currently, but I may need to run a couple of docker containers. I have a couple of years of experience.
1649[16:03:56] <ratrace> I also wouldn't separate out any directory unless: a) needed different mount options for them, b) needed bigger/other storage media
1650[16:04:03] <jim> in what languages?
1651[16:04:09] <jelly> omarek_, separate /var is very nice on servers. Home use? Dunno, are you planning on having huge mysql or postgres databases
1652[16:04:18] <omarek_> jim: Python and recently Rust.
1653[16:04:32] <omarek_> I'm moving away from web development.
1655[16:04:42] <jim> ratrace, also, you're protecting / from overfilling
1656[16:04:44] <jelly> separate /usr is senseless
1657[16:05:11] <jhutchins> I find a seperate /var isn't as useful as people think. If /var is full and logging stops, many programs will stall or freeze the system.
1658[16:05:18] <jim> it's where most of the content of packages go
1659[16:05:18] <omarek_> I typically had separate /, /home, and swap partitions. I can make a separate /var. How big /var makes sense?
1660[16:05:20] <dvs> jelly: agreed
1661[16:05:26] <ratrace> jhutchins: +1
1662[16:05:39] <ratrace> and also most important ones not to overfill are under /run
1663[16:05:45] <cybercrypto> omarek_: Standard debian partition is pretty much good for general development purposes. You may want to separate /home and /var to make it better. I am running 18GB for root fs /home=200GB and /var=32Gb. Absolutely no issues for my home needs.
1664[16:06:03] <jhutchins> omarek_: I strongly recommend a single partition until you establish where your storage is going to grow.
1665[16:06:11] <omarek_> Not planning to run real servers, more like dev environment and proof of concept stuff.
1666[16:06:14] * ratrace seconds that
1667[16:06:58] <dvs> omarek_: if you're not running a server then I wouldn't make a separate /var partition.
1668[16:07:10] <jhutchins> As examples, a server that under-allocated /home because it was a web server, but it had multiple clients serving pages out of /home, or another that didn't allocate enough /var and was running mail and web pages from /var/replaced-url
1669[16:07:11] <jelly> omarek_, honestly not making the /boot too small is more important than having a separate /var or even /home :
1670[16:07:13] <omarek_> I currently have 15/20GB full on my / partition.
1671[16:07:17] <jelly> for a home system
1672[16:07:18] <omarek_> Right after apt-get celan
1675[16:08:18] <dvs> omarek_: However, 20GB is a little worrisome if it includes /var when upgrading to a new release.
1676[16:09:00] <omarek_> I think it's quite tricky to resize existing partitions?
1677[16:09:16] <jhutchins> I can't count the times someone made a seperate /boot, then did an upgrade with /boot un-mounted. You may ponder the results.
1678[16:09:18] <jelly> omarek_, just set up a 10GB / and 10GB /home on LVM, leave the rest of the VG free, then grow them later. Avoid partitions.
1688[16:10:24] <jim> omarek_, quick primer on lvm...
1689[16:10:26] <ratrace> the partitioning industry hates that simple trick. click here for more info!
1690[16:10:29] <jelly> omarek_, you can't migrate an existing system
1691[16:10:38] <jim> with partitions, you make partitions using a partition tool, format them with a filesystem directly, and mount the partition with the filesystem. with LVM, instead of putting filesystems in partitions directly, you put 'LVM physical volumes' in partitions, then you make a 'volume group' (which is just a list of physical volumes), and put physical volumes in the volume groups, then you can make 'logical volumes', and these are what you would format and
1692[16:10:38] <jim> mount, and they got allocated from a volume group.
1695[16:12:11] <jelly> omarek_, well, the migration is "format new disk with 1 partition for /boot 1 for LVM, set up LVs for / and swap (and optionally for /var and /home) and restore all data to new fs structure and set up boot loader"
1696[16:12:13] <omarek_> So LVM is solid enough for everyday use?
1697[16:12:20] <jelly> absolutely
1698[16:12:29] <jim> has been for like 20 years
1699[16:12:50] <jim> quite stable
1700[16:12:50] <omarek_> I never personally met anyone using it, which is why I'm a bit cautious.
1701[16:13:10] <jelly> d-i still has dumb defaults about partition and LV sizes.
1753[16:49:06] <slop> Question - I recently tried gnome again and leaning back towards XFCE - what do YOU prefer? Gnome has more bloat (e.g., games etc) than I care of. I know they can be uninstalled but just being picky.
1776[16:54:33] <EdePopede> i like to have the option to change things as i need them. already says much about something specific without even naming it.
1777[16:54:37] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1855[17:26:26] <EdePopede> n4dir, that's all something for the other pc for the moment. but as soon as i allow the first "apps" to run inside my browser i don't really care anymore about what get used somewhere else ;)
1872[17:30:37] <EdePopede> > just ran a test session on the other PC after the first one seems to run like forever, killed the other processes (tracker-miner-fs, tracker-miner-apps, applet.py, agent) manually, waited for checked after one and a half hours now, and the systemd tree is gone.
1873[17:30:46] <EdePopede> this was from... some days ago
1874[17:31:07] <EdePopede> i think this time it is still running
1875[17:31:08] <n4dir> i do recall xfce right after boot 70 MB Ram usage. Window Managers could have 60. And that was not in the nineties
1876[17:31:23] <n4dir> i fail to see what more xfce does than it does 10 years ago
1877[17:31:56] <jhutchins> n4dir: That's why we like it. Quality has improved though.
1878[17:32:21] <n4dir> yeah, it being not that experimental as far changes are concerened is very good
1879[17:32:24] <freem> n4dir: maybe your answer is "it now uses gtk3"
1880[17:32:39] <n4dir> i checkd version? 16 ? whatever is in Sid right now. I didn't see any difference. ha ha
1881[17:32:51] <EdePopede> yep, all still there. last 2 times i started killing them one by one to see if some monster daemon will then terminate, one time it did, but not the other time.
1900[17:41:18] <freem> > can a pentium machine with 1g ram, able to run all the versions from wheezy to buster?
1901[17:41:18] <freem> I have an older computer, with less than 200Mio RAM, CPU ~700MHz, debian 9 + LXDE worked fine there last time I checked.
1902[17:41:24] <freem> jim: ^
1903[17:41:35] <freem> so your pentium with 1Gio RAM is probably good
1904[17:41:45] <freem> now, that implies not running a webbrowser, ofc
1905[17:41:52] <n4dir> yeah, similar experiences here. Ram from 256 to 1 Gig of Ram, all worked fine
1906[17:41:58] <jim> EdePopede, probably the applet talks to a print server rather than an individual printer directly... so if it installs a print server, it might install such an applet
1907[17:42:04] <n4dir> besides ... you have guessed it ... modern web-browsers
1908[17:42:08] <freem> I also need to upgrade it to debian 10...
1910[17:42:41] <EdePopede> not sure why i'm using a DE myself, maybe because WM only was a mess of one or the other kind before i started usind KDE long ago. and having that panel thingy for the network is nice, i don't think i ever knew how to use the cli for what it does
1911[17:42:52] *** Quits: earthundead (~earthunde@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1912[17:42:55] <freem> someday. Maybe. I mostly keep that oldie because it still have old hardware, like RS232, PCI, SCSI, etc
1913[17:43:22] <n4dir> EdePopede: well, you could start the xfce panel in any WM (or at least quite some)
1914[17:43:31] <EdePopede> jim: makes sense, should check it. does the installer offer "print server"? can't remember, may have to check the screenshots. D:
1915[17:43:34] <n4dir> fluxbox ! DO IT !
1916[17:43:39] <freem> EdePopede: well, I started using CLI a lot, and almost only that, when I started using a tiling WM and zsh. Without them, it's a pain.
1917[17:44:05] <EdePopede> before kde there was fvwm?(2|95)
1918[17:44:28] <freem> I still like my claws, speedcrunch, zenmap, etc , though
1920[17:45:26] <EdePopede> one of the tasks (not highest priority though) is to get a gtk free desktop.
1921[17:45:35] <n4dir> uff
1922[17:45:37] <freem> good luck with that
1923[17:45:40] <EdePopede> *nod*
1924[17:45:49] <freem> do you have a good, lightweight, mail client?
1925[17:46:05] <freem> and I only use ncurses applications when I can really find nothing better
1926[17:46:18] <freem> so, alpine or mutt are not really good alternatives to claws here :)
1927[17:46:44] <jim> EdePopede, loooong before kde :)
1928[17:47:05] <freem> a tool like gparted would also be nice, but this I can live without, I don't resize or move partitions everyday after all
1929[17:47:07] <EdePopede> ncurses isn't the worst. for text things i don't really see the need for gtk, sometimes it's just convenient. copying, resizing, this kind.
1930[17:47:35] <n4dir> someone spoke about lxqt ? the other day.
1931[17:47:36] <EdePopede> jim: iirc kde was the first de i ever used
1932[17:47:37] <freem> it's not the worst, but it's far from ideal
1933[17:48:03] <n4dir> no idea if you could get away from gtk by such choices though
1934[17:48:07] <freem> the only ncurses applications I really use are vim and aptitude, basically. Aptitude is a tool I often want to rewrite, and vim is not really ncurses
1935[17:48:21] <EdePopede> n4dir: another entry on my list, i was really waiting for something lightweighted based on Qt. which i prefer over Gtk anyway.
1936[17:48:43] <n4dir> EdePopede: the guy who spoke about it considered it more than just ok, without fanboyism.
1937[17:48:53] <EdePopede> htop and mc are also open here constantly.
1938[17:48:55] <n4dir> but that is really just hearsay
1954[17:51:25] <n4dir> and quite some non gtk/qt i seem to recall
1955[17:51:34] <freem> antix?
1956[17:51:38] <n4dir> yup
1957[17:51:39] <EdePopede> even the default settings for the open dialog are horrible. and i have to set them every time to be different. and then there's a single mini menu for the selected file and the dialog itself.
1958[17:51:56] <freem> firefox's UI sucks.
1959[17:52:12] <freem> tbh, most webfuckers UI sucks... especially when they are mainstream
1960[17:52:21] *** CommunistWolf is now known as CapitalistWolf
1961[17:52:28] <jhutchins> freem: That must be why millions of people use firefox.
1962[17:52:30] *** CapitalistWolf is now known as CommunistWolf
1963[17:52:39] <EdePopede> jhutchins: there are no real alternatives
1964[17:52:49] <freem> jhutchins: millions of people have always used windows. Do you think windows UI rocks?
1965[17:52:57] <n4dir> jhutchins: or as there simply is no alternative?
1966[17:53:03] <EdePopede> freem: compared to Gtk? :P
1977[17:54:33] <EdePopede> i have this Borland C++ 4.0, the docs include some MS documentation (help files).
1978[17:54:37] <freem> jhutchins: there's always something good to say to everything. For example, it can be used. Painfully, yes, but it can be used, so that's a good thing.
1979[17:54:59] <EdePopede> some of them are hard to find in the hierarchy, but i've read good things in them back then.
1981[17:55:50] *** Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
1982[17:55:58] <EdePopede> fileman wasn't that bad, only it was not needed anymore after norton commander didn't switch the platform. so it was killed.
1983[17:56:13] <freem> when I was still a windows user, I used replacements for almost everytools there. It was before vista when they introduced that weird thing taking height on wide screens...
1984[17:56:23] <EdePopede> at least it was definitely better than dosshell, if anyone remembers.
1987[17:57:05] <EdePopede> freem, sure. VGA driver, Total Commander, IrfanView, some text editor, netscape/opera. and then it was usable :)
1988[17:57:07] <n4dir> whenever i run in Windows i install all apps i use in Linux. Once that weekend is over, i wonder why bother running Windows at all
1989[17:57:09] <freem> well, it was a bit like mc and the likes, so people can build themselves an idea even nowadays
1990[17:57:22] <freem> EdePopede: add guipro/hulk, too
1991[17:57:33] <EdePopede> huh? don't know this one
1992[17:57:36] <freem> 7zip was a better file explorer, too
1994[17:58:19] <EdePopede> but i had someting sitting in the corner of the screen with buttons, some system infos, looked a bit futuristic. norton dashboard maybe
1995[17:58:21] <freem> basically, it added the $mod+click to move/resize windows, and other nix-like thingies
1996[17:58:47] <freem> since when you start using them, it's hard as hell to go back on standard windows
1998[17:59:20] <freem> "When some tools exists to move the windows by pressing a key and clicking with the mouse ; HulK provide a set of features to help the management of the windows." replaced-url
1999[17:59:33] <freem> it's part of my survival toolkit, even if I didn't had to use it since ages
2017[18:03:45] <freem> I mean, MS-DOS 6 and above were usable. The thing they put in winXP... was more a torture tool
2018[18:03:54] <EdePopede> and windows adapted some of the features over the decades. it only takes like forever. virtual desktops, panels, desktops bigger than the physical resolution.
2019[18:03:57] <azeem> that sounds off-topic?
2020[18:04:20] <Azrael_-> i want to run postgresql 9.6 side by side with postgresql 11 on buster, is this possible by just install both of them at the same time or do i have to do something special?
2022[18:04:50] <azeem> Azrael_-: it is possible, Debian just ships only one major version of Postgres
2023[18:04:54] <azeem> !postgresql
2024[18:04:55] <dpkg> PostgreSQL is a robust, mature and full-featured relational database implementing a large subset of <SQL>. Supports views, stored procedures, triggers and scripting. Packaged in Debian, read /usr/share/doc/postgresql-common/README.Debian.gz ("for the impatient"). replaced-url
2033[18:08:27] <Azrael_-> that was the suggestion back then from this channel when i needed 9.6 due to an old software incompatible with the newer versions. didn't know it better back then. the old software is still running but want to try out a new software and don't want this an old postgres because in the end i'll try to get rid of the old postgres and don't want to have to migrate anything again
2034[18:09:01] *** Joins: conta (Thunderbir@replaced-ip)
2114[19:14:57] <zorrow> hey, i'm trying to figure out why my vm can't reach the internal dhcp (virt-manager with libvirt-qemu). for whatever reason, every single vm doesn't get an ip, but if i ifdown enp1s0 it tells me it releases ip 192.168.122.xxx
2118[19:19:06] <jim> GNU\colossus, this is an older pentium, it probably needs pae, but I'm not sure of that (the kernel he has running is a 686-pae, not 64 bits, 32 bits)
2124[19:24:35] <petn-randall> jim: You can't directly upgrade from wheezy to buster, you need to go wheezy → jessie → stretch → buster. Also, IIRC Intel 80586 support was dropped somewhere on the way, so you won't be able to upgrade all the way.
2125[19:25:25] <sney> "older pentium" could also refer to a handful of budget chips from the mid 00s
2126[19:25:36] <sney> (thanks for being consistent, intel!)
2151[19:41:30] <zutat> anyway. the package descriptions also mention "modern PCs" and "older PCs". maybe the pae version also drops support for ancient hardware
2152[19:42:15] <jim> jelly, yeah, he's only got 1 g... is an upgrade from wheezy to buster (not directly of course) likely to work?
2153[19:42:29] <jim> we finally got the archive url working
2226[20:40:58] <MikeDebian> guys.. most of the times after using a behringer UCA222 audio interface my headphones stop working as they should... only after several reboots / shutdowns, plugging and unplugging, it eventually comes back working (with debian 9). now with debian 10 it also eventually comes back to work but then without doing anything (just closing and opening a few simple apps to listen to the audio, such as video app, vlc, etc) it stops working
2227[20:41:08] <MikeDebian> then I hear some clicks on my headphones from time to time
2228[20:41:39] <MikeDebian> can't see anything wrong with pavucontrol and alsamixer
2229[20:41:46] <MikeDebian> headphones are recognized
2230[20:41:50] <MikeDebian> and selected
2231[20:41:56] <sney> if that's with pulseaudio, try this: replaced-url
2232[20:42:02] <sney> (it improved things with my focusrite as well)
2233[20:43:16] <MikeDebian> sney, i'll have a look
2234[20:43:48] <MikeDebian> btw, which version of focusrite do you have?
2247[20:54:22] <MikeDebian> sney, it didn't fix my problem.. i rebooted with headphones unplugged... put some audio to play with "videos" app it works on speakers, plug the headphones, it works with the headphones. then close the videos app, open chrome, visit youtube and play some video, I hear a click on the headphones and no more sound again
2249[20:54:54] <MikeDebian> it was working nicely before using the behringer audio interface... this is so frustrating... happened with debian 9 as well (not with debian 8 I beleive)
2269[21:15:35] <lowin> Hello. I have setup initramfs dropbear on my system to allow unlocking crypt_root remotely. but after I run "cryptroot-unlock" it unlocks the root partition and closes the connection. there are still some non root partitions that I would have to unlock after root. Is there a way to do that?
2270[21:16:29] <petn-randall> lowin: You can always ssh in and unlock those then.
2271[21:16:56] <lowin> I can't because sshd doesn't go up before mounting fstab
2272[21:17:58] <lowin> I should probably switch to a keyfile unlocking mechanism after mounting root
2297[21:38:00] <MikeDebian> im trying to stop pulseaudio to start it in debug (verbose) mode to check what might be happening but it auto spawns every time the process is killed
2298[21:38:09] <MikeDebian> pulseaudio does not seem to have any systemd service
2302[21:39:42] <jmcnaught> MikeDebian: try "systemctl --user stop pulseaudio.service". There is also a pulseaudio.socket user unit that you might also need to stop.
2319[21:48:53] <jmcnaught> MikeDebian: you could use "systemctl --user --full edit pulseaudio.service" and change the ExecStart= line to add --verbose, then restart pulseaudio, and the messages will be in its journal ("journalctl --user --unit=pulseaudio.service")
2327[21:52:21] <MikeDebian> I didn't need to do that though.. being fast enough before it starts "/usr/bin/pulseaudio --start --log-target=syslog" did the trick
2335[21:58:54] <jhutchins> MikeDebian: Under SysV there were often config files where you could specify options for system-level programs. Look in /etc/defaults, maybe dpkg -l <pulse audio package> . Look in /usr/sare/doc/pulse*
2366[22:22:15] <alexrelis[m]> slop: I use Element with the IRC bridge.
2367[22:22:52] <slop> Thanks - I noticed irssi hasnt been updated since ~2019 or so. was trying to determine if its still supported
2368[22:23:06] <alexrelis[m]> A lot of people advise not to but bridging has some benefits. One of which is the ability to view message history for when you're not online.
2369[22:24:17] <apollo13> you do not need bridging for that though, any bouncer lets you do that as well
2370[22:24:52] <slop> ok going to switch from Irssi, the lack of updates concerns me :D (paranoia!)