15[00:10:39] <DDDD> I tried installing python 3.9 as altinstall from source, but getting the error "import _tkinter # If this fails your Python may not be configured for Tk ModuleNotFoundError: No module named '_tkinter'"
16[00:11:06] <DDDD> As far as i know turtle comes with python per default so what am i missing?
17[00:11:21] <DDDD> Is there any deb package for python 3.9 that one could install instead?
18[00:12:04] <sney> python 3.9 is available in bullseye, and if this is a desktop/development system then it may be smart to upgrade anyway
24[00:13:09] *** Quits: Lupricon (~Lupricon@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
25[00:13:12] <DDDD> when did bullseye get released?
26[00:13:42] *** Quits: LucaTM (~LucaTM@replaced-ip) (Quit: To infinity and beyond...)
27[00:13:43] <sney> it'll likely be released this fall. but the freeze process started today, so it'll be pretty consistent from now on
28[00:13:51] <sney> dpkg: buster->bullseye
29[00:13:52] <dpkg> In /etc/apt/sources.list, change "buster" to "bullseye", remove lines like buster-backports, debian-multimedia <dmo>, and other 3rd party repos as they are known to cause issues then do: apt update && apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade. Note that testing is a <moving target> and may be buggy, and read the sid FAQ: replaced-url
36[00:17:21] <sney> I've been using it regularly for over a year and it's very solid now. there may be some changes to how your applications behave after upgrades, but debian testing at this point in the dev cycle is more stable than some distros' actual releases
37[00:19:20] <DDDD> Guessing it's not possible to just install that python .deb package on current buster?
45[00:24:26] <jhutchins> DDDD: One way to do it is to set up a dual-boot so you can still use the computer while they're fixing stuff. You just chroot to the testing install, run apt update, and see if it works.
46[00:25:10] <jhutchins> I did that for the intel video upgrade, took a LOONG time.
47[00:26:21] <DDDD> Reason for why being so careful is because i do some work from home which requires me to encrypt all my disks. I do have backups for my most important files but if something goes wrong i don't have the linux technical knowledge of reinstalling debian while setting up the LUKS to work again without formating everything.
48[00:26:42] <petn-randall> sney: Now new transitions can be started from today, and buildessential packages are frozen. There are still a lot migrations going on right now in bullseye.
54[00:28:40] <sney> petn-randall: it's still pretty ok for a desktop, and the most straightforward way to get a debian system with python 3.9 without jumping through extra hoops.
123[01:21:20] <sney> you can have multiple DEs installed as long as you have disk space
124[01:22:34] <sney> I have lxqt installed as a backup on this system in case of plasma shenanigans (haven't needed it in a while, but you never know), same user, no conflicts.
125[01:22:56] <DDDD> KDE is not but it's a bit to blingy at times
137[01:26:05] <sney> Mister00X: ~/.config is pretty well separated in the current era. in the past, there was some chance of things being overwritten, but modern stuff keeps to itself
138[01:26:36] <Mister00X> good to know!
139[01:26:38] <sney> it might get hairy if you're using the same program in both DEs, and trying to keep different settings for it, but that's really an edge case
140[01:27:18] *** Quits: Tobbi (~Tobbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
146[01:29:15] <DDDD> sney: same program such as something included in the DE's? Does this mean changing settings on for example firefox on one DE will overwrite the changes on the other one?
147[01:29:26] <DDDD> Not that i care as i'd want the same settings on both anyways but :P
148[01:30:18] <sney> like if I wanted hexchat to use a different theme in lxqt than it does in plasma, I'd probably have to script something to run at login, because hexchat's settings are always in ~/.config/hexchat regardless of DE
149[01:31:15] <sney> same idea with firefox, yeah
150[01:31:57] <DDDD> ahh okay
151[01:32:12] <DDDD> I'd want same settings for everything probably so sounds like i don't need to care.
152[01:32:13] <DDDD> Thanks sney!
153[01:32:16] <sney> np
154[01:32:21] <DDDD> Also got bullseye working on my VM now :D
159[01:34:25] <Xacyllum> Hi, a question regarding static routing:
160[01:35:22] *** Prints is now known as VolatileEmpanada
161[01:41:19] <DDDD> sney apparently i have two display managers installed, lightdm and sddm. xfce installation is asking which i want to use ask default
162[01:42:34] <sney> it makes no practical difference. I find sddm looks nicer, but it's your choice
166[01:47:40] <DDDD> Strange getting import tkinter as TK ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'tkinter' even on Bullseye. Python 3.9 is installed by default but seems like it's not compiled with tkinter
167[01:48:19] <Xacyllum> ratrace: have to anonymize it and write it down at first on kwrite ;)
168[01:48:24] <Xacyllum> not very much
169[01:48:43] <sney> DDDD: you are probably just missing the python3-tk package
189[02:02:12] <Xacyllum> Ok, now I'm done, only five lines :D had to get an overview to don't get muddled.
190[02:02:32] <Xacyllum> we have the networks 192.168.88.0/22, 192.168.40.0/23, 192.168.10.0/24.
191[02:02:33] <Xacyllum> On 192.168.80.73 is a router to route from 192.168.40.0 to 192.168.10.0, it has a interface on 192.168.10.0, too. It works already.
192[02:02:54] <Xacyllum> Which static route do I need on 192.168.40.131 to make it work?
194[02:03:16] <Xacyllum> I tried this static route, but it doesn't work, because I also need to add a second route route from 192.168.40.0/23 to 192.168.88.0/24.
283[03:21:32] <qr3461> anyone know if virtual box is available on debian in the repo?
284[03:21:42] *** jotaxpe_ is now known as jotaxpe
285[03:21:47] <sney> !virtualbox
286[03:21:47] <dpkg> Oracle VM VirtualBox is <virtualization> software. Not in buster and unlikely to be in any future debian stable releases due to #794466. Unofficial backports are available as well as 3rd party packages from Oracle, see replaced-url
287[03:22:46] <sney> if you don't *need* virtualbox-brand-virtualbox, and just want to virtualize some stuff on the desktop to test, take a few minutes to learn virt-manager. less headache in the long run.
288[03:23:12] <qr3461> i actually have virt-manager
289[03:23:26] <qr3461> and i like it quite a bit, but was having some trouble with the networking
290[03:23:35] <qr3461> and the documentation was a bit difficult to parse at times
292[03:26:04] <sney> virt-manager's documentation can be a little vague because it's just a frontend to libvirt/qemu tools. anything more complex than a basic nat or bridge probably requires understanding how to do it with qemu, and then applying that to the gui; but at that point you might have outgrown libvirt/virtualbox anyway and need a more dedicated hypervisor
294[03:29:45] <sway> I use libvirt/qemu with the Virtual Machine Manager (VMM) and find it to be rock solid. The only non-linux VM I have problems building with it is Win10.
295[03:30:07] *** Quits: sway (~Milo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
297[03:31:18] <qr3461> sney, are you good with virt-manager/libvert/qemu? i actually have a networking question that I haven't been able to figure out from the docs
298[03:31:59] <qr3461> basically, I set the networking to user networking, but would like to create a firewall on my host that will block some IP addresses that the guest is trying to connect to
299[03:32:38] <qr3461> ive tried with firewalld on the libvirt group but it did nothing unfortunately
306[03:36:03] <sney> if you want to firewall traffic from your vm guests then applying it to the virbr interface is the correct approach, you probably just need to prioritize your firewall rules better, and make sure you understand the distinction between the 'input' and 'forward' tables
307[03:38:16] <sney> er, chains. I rarely use host firewalls so sometimes I lose the terms.
368[04:44:19] <qr3461> sney, apologies, was away for a bit. If youre still here and can give me a quick rundown on the difference, that would be very helpful
369[04:44:34] <qr3461> glad to know i was on track with applying the rules on virbr
371[04:45:24] <qr3461> like for example, if I sent a ping to 1.1.1.1 on the guest, it would get sent from the vnet to the virbr and then to the physical devices on the host if i understand correctly
372[04:45:52] <qr3461> how would I then, on the host, check that the packet is going to 1.1.1.1, and then create a rule that will deny this packet?
374[04:46:18] <qr3461> maybe i need a forwarding deny rule or something? im not too sure, not an expert on this stuff
375[04:46:30] <sney> I'm here but I can't really commit the time to help with firewall basics. luckily, there's youtube, and a lot of text manuals. and ##networking on this network is ok if you have thick skin.
376[04:46:44] *** Quits: krkini (~kini@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
377[04:47:17] <sney> networking/firewalls seem like something that linux people should just be able to pick up, but it's really a whole different field. netfilter.org has some good diagrams to give you a leg up iirc
407[05:08:53] <galex-713> what about debugging symbols? do they come necessarily from the same build process?
408[05:09:03] <sney> yes, and in a separate section.
409[05:09:06] <sney> !dbgsym
410[05:09:06] <dpkg> Packages that end in '*-dbgsym' contain the symbols required for debugging executables and libraries. The dbgsym packages are automatically generated packages that are in a separate archive; add a line like "deb replaced-url
412[05:09:37] <sney> security.debian.org doesn't have a dbgsym section but those packages can often be found in stable-proposed-updates too, which does
413[05:10:30] *** Quits: BrianG61UK_ (~BrianG61U@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
433[05:14:57] <galex-713> but why isn’t the gcc version the same as I have now then?
434[05:15:18] <sney> !your screen
435[05:15:19] <dpkg> Your screen is in front of your face. #debian cannot see it. Please give as many details as you can about the problem. It wastes our time and yours when we have to guess what is on your screen. See <context>, <what>
436[05:15:30] <galex-713> it seems to say “gcc-8_8.2.0-15” instead of “gcc-8_8.3.0-6” there
444[05:18:58] <sney> ok, so telegram-desktop was uploaded to sid (and then built, with the log you see there) on 03 Feb 2019. so it was built with the sid/buster toolchain that we had at that time. replaced-url
519[07:06:26] <asarch> One stupid question: how do yo make a specific kernel your default kernel? E.g.: buster-backports: 5.9.0-0.bpo.2-686 (5.9.6-1~bpo10+1)
520[07:07:59] *** Quits: kini (~kini@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
521[07:08:32] <asarch> I remember there is a dpgk make-default linux-image-5.9.0-0.bpo.2-686 command for that
567[07:34:41] <Voltum> hey i installed ejabberd from debian-backports, and this was missing (erlang-p1-pgsql). debian splits support for mysql and psql into different packages..
568[07:35:00] <Voltum> installing the deb from their site, never had that issue
569[07:37:10] <oxek> Voltum: 'apt -t buster-backports depends ejabberd | grep sql' tells me they are Suggests packages
584[07:59:34] <unixbsd> badblocks: hello, mkfs.ext2 -c /dev/sda1 is readyonly, mkfs.ext2 -cc /dev/sda1 is fine but takes several days / It is possible to have it faster? Which possible method would exclude but in less time than -cc ?
623[08:51:55] <unixbsd> ratrace: I havent found any other alternative. I noticed that ntfs bad block is little bit faster. xfs does not have any bad block.
630[08:54:01] <dpkg> The hash of a file is a string of numbers/digits calculated from its contents in such a way as to mean that if the hash is correct then the file is OK. Debian uses hashes extensively to ensure that apt downloads verified packages for you. Ask me about <secure apt> or see replaced-url
631[08:54:47] <Mister00X> gholinbrown: you can verify the hash with the sign file
632[08:55:19] <gholinbrown> how do i know if the sign file is authentic
648[08:58:15] <gholinbrown> how do i start a new game?
649[08:58:19] <rudi_s> If you started with the right iso then all further updates are authenticated (assuming nobobody compromised the build architecture, signing architecture, developer machine, etc.)
650[08:59:03] <rudi_s> Well, use a trusted system (that might be a problem). Find the proper GPG key (e.g. from colleagues), download ISO, SHASUM, signature, verify everything and install it.
651[08:59:31] <rudi_s> However, there are many additional attack vectors if you're really paranoid (usb stick, disk, BIOS/UEFI, CPU backdoor, whatever).
652[09:00:14] <rudi_s> And you have to start somewhere. But checking the signature using gpg and the hash is a good thing to do.
655[09:00:44] <rudi_s> That protects against malicious mirrors which I think is the most likely attack (if "most" is even realistic, doubt it happens often).
656[09:01:17] *** Joins: mezzo (~mezzo@replaced-ip)
668[09:03:42] <rudi_s> How do you know that your brain wasn't manipulated and you actually verified the checksums and it wasn't just a fake memory (e.g. as shown in Ghost in Shell, fake memories that is).
669[09:03:46] <steven> and hope the mail man won't manipulate the image :D
671[09:04:37] <pasiz> or if your switch have malware to manipulate just debian iso:s
672[09:04:46] <rudi_s> But if you're up against resourceful attackers they will most likely just enter your house and install malware/cameras/whatever. Or manipulate the BIOS of the computer you just ordered ...
697[09:16:08] <ratrace> unixbsd: have you actually tried badblocks(8)?
698[09:17:29] <ratrace> unixbsd: also, have you measured the throughput to your drive with iostat or vmstat? is it saturated? too much iops, not enough MB/s? increaes block size for badblocks(8) and reduce block count tested at a time so (-b times -c ~ 64k).
699[09:18:04] <ratrace> (so that -b X -c ~= 64k)
700[09:18:18] <rudi_s> gholinbrown: Just to increase your paranoia. A USB stick (or a hard disk/SSD for that matter) is just a tiny computer. So it can have malware as well and behave differently when it's booting on your computer then when it's being read from another computer.
701[09:18:43] <rudi_s> (I'm not trying to troll you. I just want to point out, that you have to draw the line somewhere.)
709[09:20:46] <rudi_s> gholinbrown: "new usbs"? Why not just use an existing one.
710[09:21:08] <rudi_s> It should be a few directory up, they are called 'dvds' in the mirror hierarchy I think.
711[09:21:09] <gholinbrown> rudi_s i've plugged some of them in to the machine. and i don't know when the potential infection/whatever may have started
712[09:21:41] <rudi_s> gholinbrown: As I said, you have to draw the line somewhere. You can just erase overwrite it and it will (most likely) be just like new.
713[09:22:05] <rudi_s> (And how can you assume that it wasn't infected in the first place when you bought it?)
722[09:25:03] <dob1> I am connected via ssh on a debian server and on htop I don't see the names of the user of the processes, I read them if I highlight the line where the process is
728[09:26:51] <Mister00X> dob1: have you tried changing them
729[09:27:54] <Mister00X> wait... htop uses curses nevermind that was stupid to say
730[09:27:57] <rudi_s> Or your TERM is incorrect (either locally or on the remote side).
731[09:28:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1191
732[09:28:07] <dob1> Mister00X, if I run htop on the same terminal on the local pc it works perfect, it's on ssh that it doesn't work. for example sudo htop I just see root as user not the other ones until I move the lines
733[09:28:18] <rudi_s> (You should never set TERM in any shell configuration file, only in your terminal emulator.)
748[09:33:37] <unixbsd> ratrace: wow, this is pro answer, I neeed to study this area. thank you
749[09:33:50] <rudi_s> dob1: And locally? And do you use screen? screen-256color terminfo installed on remote host? Does it work without screen, etc.
750[09:34:31] <dob1> rudi_s, local it works, tried several terminal emulator it's the same. I am using tmux. same even if I connect without having tmux running
754[09:39:28] <oxek> my /etc/firewalld/firewalld.conf contains the line 'FirewallBackend=iptables' yet says that 'nftables (default)'. Anyone know why debian changes this default?
783[09:58:52] <dpkg> Slow down for a bit! Are you sure that you need to jump through that particular hoop to achieve your goal? We suspect you don't, so why don't you back up a bit and tell us about the overall objective... We know that people often falsely diagnose problems because they are too close to them -- it's easy to miss that there is a better way to proceed. See replaced-url
784[10:00:04] *** Quits: rnm[m] (mambangmat@replaced-ip) (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
786[10:02:29] <gildasio> thanks ratrace, but it isn't a xy case, because I really need this version. It isn't a troubleshooting issue or something like this. If it were, I would count on your help to a better diagnose
787[10:02:54] <ratrace> gildasio: I guess there's no other way than with jigdo: replaced-url
828[10:31:42] *** Quits: towo` (~towo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
829[10:33:20] <mrjpaxton> Hey, I'm looking for a way to configure the TTY size when picocom starts up without having to type in "stty cols <x> rows <y>" every time. Anyone have an idea about that?
830[10:33:59] <ratrace> Lope: dunno.... forgot to mount /boot ?
836[10:40:59] <gholinbrown> it's a shame writing to usb takes forever. esp. if usb 2.0
837[10:43:23] <Lope> gholinbrown, 99% of USB flash drives are absolute trash. I've stopped using them.
838[10:43:36] <Lope> gholinbrown, I just use SSD's inside USB enclosures now.
839[10:44:18] <mrjpaxton> Oh yeah, for sure. I don't miss USB 2.o in the slightest. I'm loving USB-C too much. :p
840[10:44:52] <gholinbrown> progress bar has been stuck at halfway mark for like 5 minutes (or more)
841[10:45:03] <mrjpaxton> yeah, about the only good thumb drives are the Sandisk Extreme Go.
842[10:45:13] <mrjpaxton> And maybe Samsung.
843[10:45:30] <Lope> USB 3 flash drives are also trash. USB-C is just a connector.
844[10:45:58] <Lope> I had a samsung 128GB USB3 flash drive. Worst piece of shit ever.
845[10:46:20] <gholinbrown> i ended the transfer. way way too long
846[10:46:38] <mrjpaxton> I have an SD card adapter that can take any micro-SD, and "convert" it into a thumb drive. It has one USB 3.0 port, and another one as USB-C.
847[10:46:44] <Lope> Flash drives are worse than trash actually. Trash doesn't waste time. Time is money and life. Time is everything. USB Flash drives are Satan.
848[10:46:55] <mrjpaxton> I can post an Amazon link to it if I can find it. Lol.
849[10:47:05] <Lope> If you see a USB flash drive, get a hammer.
854[10:47:52] <Lope> Amazingly I've found microSD is often vastly better than USB flash drives.
855[10:48:09] <Lope> It's like they think they can get away with putting the absolute lowest quality crap in a flash drive.
856[10:48:24] <Lope> Whereas microSD must at least handle mobile demands.
857[10:48:36] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, here it is: replaced-url
858[10:48:42] <mrjpaxton> This thing is amazing.
859[10:48:43] <oxek> quadrathoch2: so you think I should switch it to nftables?
860[10:49:02] <gholinbrown> and now the usb report won't respond
861[10:49:44] <ratrace> Lope: well I can't disagree with that. _every_ USB stick I've bought in the past several years, even from known brands like kingston.... would die within a year. bad sector kinda deid. and I used them in write once, read seldom cases, for ISOs only
889[10:59:13] <ratrace> gholinbrown: well if it hogs again, same questions apply, before you remove the drive....
890[10:59:39] <gholinbrown> lol. so i assumed now it's done. so i do the safe remove. now it's stuck there acting like it won't remove.
891[11:00:10] <ratrace> probably because linux is lying about data transfers if there's no sync involved and it isn't in dumb tools like file manager GUIs
892[11:00:32] <ratrace> so it's waiting for the kernel to actaully page out the data to the device. again, check with iostat if any data is moving toward it.
896[11:03:45] <gholinbrown> most times i've written gigabyte sized files things do this. lock up etc. and i've gotten pretty screwed before. only way to know for sure if it worked is hash check comparison
900[11:05:13] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, sync (or fsync) is a thing that I really didn't understand for a while when using Linux, but it is a good way to increase the life of flash media as it decreases writes to them in general, depending on how much RAM you have, or when the device is removed, or your comptuer shuts down.
901[11:05:39] <mrjpaxton> But it can cause slow flash drives to hang for a while. Lol.
902[11:05:57] <ratrace> if anything, sync _increases_ writes
903[11:06:26] *** Joins: jerry (~jerry@replaced-ip)
904[11:06:29] <ratrace> data may change in page cache a few times before the kernel actually pages it out. if you sync'ed after each change, it'd be writing out that each change
905[11:06:57] <gholinbrown> also always unplug and replug the usb. else the hash check lies. i don't know why this is.
907[11:07:13] <mrjpaxton> So, when you write to a file, those changes are stored in RAM, not written to the disk, but then when you remove the flash drive, those changes are finally written. So it could also be a method of wear leveling by spreading writes to RAM and the flash media.
908[11:07:22] <mrjpaxton> That's as far as I understand it.
909[11:07:35] <ratrace> problem in linux is that without syncing regularly on (large) data transfers, linux will wait until certain dirty page tresholds are met. that's why you see, eg. dd without sync, blast out super fast and then the rate goes down
910[11:08:54] <mrjpaxton> For large data, you might also consider wanting filesystem compression. That will also decrease writes.
911[11:08:56] <ratrace> mrjpaxton: it has nothing to do with wear leveling. it's just writeback cache.
928[11:13:14] <Lope> I was having problems with the realcrap, I mean realtek ethernet adapter going dead, but I contacted the host and they told me to disable TCP segmentation offload. I also installed r8168 dkms, and from the journal, the ethernet adapter comes up and looks good (logs wise anyway)
929[11:13:29] <Lope> ah, thanks for reminding me to setup a root pass
930[11:13:42] <Lope> could not having a root pass prevent the system booting properly?
932[11:14:01] <ratrace> I'm not aware of any such situation
933[11:14:03] <mrjpaxton> Lope: Just so you know, Debian's interfaces is a legacy method at this point. Most people are switching to systemd-networkd, NetworkManager (nmcli) or something else, like netplan.
934[11:14:14] <ratrace> mrjpaxton: not true
935[11:14:29] <mrjpaxton> I mean interfaces is still useful!
936[11:14:35] <ratrace> ifupdown is STILL pretty much the defacto and default network framework in Debian
938[11:14:41] *** Quits: lichito (~licho@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
939[11:14:44] <Lope> mrjpaxton, I think that's only true on distros like raspbian or whatever they call it.
940[11:14:48] <BCMM> "legacy" as in Debian plans to stop supporting it at some point, or "legacy" is in you personally have stopped using it?
941[11:14:52] <ratrace> you're confuzing it with Ubuntu and the nonsense they do with netplan that nobody else would touch with a 10ft pole
942[11:15:16] <mrjpaxton> Sorry, I guess netplan is a bad example.
943[11:15:38] <ratrace> extremely bad example
944[11:16:01] <BCMM> stuff like network-manager is probably a good idea if you have, like, a laptop that moves around and attaches to different wireless networks, and maybe a cellular dongle and a vpn too
945[11:16:49] <BCMM> but if you have a desktop or server that just always plugs in to the network, and *you want it to keep working*, ifupdown is pretty hard to beat
946[11:16:53] <mrjpaxton> BCMM: You can also roam with just wpa-supplicant. I have been doing it for a while.
947[11:17:09] <BCMM> mrjpaxton: sure, and i've done it, but it's kind of a pain
948[11:17:26] <mrjpaxton> It is, sometimes. Lol.
949[11:17:27] <BCMM> for just moving around wifi networks i quite like wicd, though
950[11:18:20] <mrjpaxton> Oh man, I used to use wicd-curses. That was interesting.
951[11:18:26] <gholinbrown> alright. time to see if the iso works
953[11:18:57] <ratrace> Lope: installing NIC dkms doesn't sound normal. which chipset is it exactly? also, TCPSO can be configured via ethtool iirc
954[11:20:25] <quadrathoch2> oxek as long as you use nftables, yes ;)
955[11:20:31] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, realtek should be well supported. Maybe you should try backporting the new kernel and see if that works better. Otherwise, I'm not sure....
956[11:20:44] <mrjpaxton> I think the newer kernelhas some better Realtek firmware at this point.
957[11:21:04] <BCMM> <mrjpaxton> Yeah, realtek should be well supported. <-- there are a *lot* of different Realtek NICs
973[11:23:36] <mrjpaxton> Hmm... There's three different numbers. Lol.
974[11:23:38] <Lope> ratrace, yes, I've done the ethtool thing.
975[11:23:46] <mrjpaxton> That's totally not confusing. /s
976[11:23:52] <BCMM> "This driver should only be used for devices not yet supported by the in-kernel driver r8169. Please see the README.Debian for instructions how to report bugs against r8169 that made it necessary to use r8168-dkms."
977[11:23:58] <BCMM> hmm interesting
978[11:24:11] <ratrace> r8169 supports a wide range of 'em , yea
979[11:24:28] *** Quits: bolt (~r00t@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
980[11:24:38] <Lope> BCMM, before 8168-dkms the ethernet adapter was going offline upon boot
981[11:24:46] <Lope> but that was before I disabled the offloading
982[11:24:52] <Lope> I kind of did them at the same time
983[11:24:54] <BCMM> then i reckon using the dkms package sounds reasonable
984[11:24:56] <ratrace> and i'd be surprised a hosting company would set up such hardware.... what company is that? perhaps you should replace it with some other, wher techs know what they're doing
985[11:25:33] <Lope> ratrace, yeah, not too impressed. I asked them to install another nic and they told me to use workarounds haha
986[11:25:41] <ratrace> what company is that?
987[11:26:04] <Lope> I'll give you a clue, starts with h and ends in er
988[11:26:05] <jim> hi... are there plans to have a debian debug server?
989[11:26:14] <ratrace> Lope: Hetzner?!
990[11:26:28] <Lope> ratrace, well, I don't want to diss any companies.
991[11:26:31] <quadrathoch2> i assume that's a dedicated?
992[11:26:38] <quadrathoch2> Lope ^
993[11:26:39] <Lope> Yes
994[11:26:51] <ratrace> Lope: that's extremely surprising. are oyu using some of those old Serverbörse machines*
995[11:27:06] <Lope> ratrace, nah, a new ryzen
996[11:27:21] <Lope> must be consumer hardware
997[11:27:26] <ratrace> ssh mx-01rr
998[11:27:28] <quadrathoch2> ratrace sadly it's not that surprising, as their normal offerings are just consumer hw
1002[11:28:41] <ratrace> Lope: all Intel NICs on our ryzens at Hetzner
1003[11:29:13] <Lope> ratrace, not this one!!!!
1004[11:29:17] <Lope> it's a realcrap
1005[11:29:22] <ratrace> Lope: if Hetzner's known for one thing, is that they do custom server chassis and components that they extensively test and use only those that give them least amount of trouble
1013[11:30:21] <Lope> ratrace, this is /etc/network/interfaces replaced-url
1014[11:30:22] <mrjpaxton> I am lucky with Realtek Ethernet, it's jsut the Realtek Wi-Fi I have a bigger issue with. I have a hard time getting some of the newer Wireless ad ones working.
1015[11:30:26] <Lope> It should be working :/
1016[11:30:41] <Lope> The boot journal shows the bridge comes up etc.
1017[11:30:48] <ratrace> Lope: uhhh who set that up?
1018[11:30:49] <mrjpaxton> And Wireless AC has alaways been iffy, too.
1019[11:31:07] <Lope> The journal says everything is fine, shows the SSH is listening with port number etc.
1020[11:31:35] <ratrace> Lope: also, if you're bridging with eth0 ... did you make sure to include net.ifnames=0 in the kernel command line?
1021[11:31:36] <Lope> ratrace, I set that up. for now I've commented out everything else, just trying to get it accessible
1022[11:31:42] <mrjpaxton> Ew, that netmask though.
1023[11:31:50] <ratrace> Lope: be _very_ careful with bridges at Hetzner
1024[11:32:04] <Lope> ratrace, well, it's not really called eth0, it's enp blah blah blah
1025[11:32:05] <ratrace> one tiny packet going out with wrong src-ip, you're dun goof'd
1026[11:32:10] <Lope> I just put eth0 for show
1027[11:32:35] <Lope> ratrace, okay cool. Well I've been running bridges on dedicated for years. No issues.
1028[11:32:36] <jim> mrjpaxton, apparantly gdb has had a feature added which looks at the thing you're debugging, and based on its "build id", will import symbols and source (so with this system, there might no longer be a need for compiling with -g (not sure if this is true for all cases)
1029[11:32:56] <ratrace> Lope: also, cosmetics but .... use the CIDR IP notation, don't use netmask
1030[11:33:17] <Lope> ratrace, ah, I didn't know you can CIDR in /etc/network/interfaces
1031[11:33:25] <Lope> I thought it's too oldschool.
1032[11:33:49] <Lope> But I mean, there's nothing wrong with my /etc/network/interfaces. Journal shows the bridge comes up.
1033[11:34:07] <Lope> (as far as I can tell)
1034[11:34:22] <ratrace> Lope: are you looking at this through LARA?
1035[11:34:58] <Lope> ratrace, I dunno what LARA is. I've been editing the files in nano, and then checking the journal after the boot fails to be internet accessible.
1038[11:35:25] <ratrace> it's hetzner's KVM console. you also have an option of vKVM. how are you checking the files then... rebooted into rescue mode, mount, chroot ?
1045[11:36:29] <ratrace> Lope: open a ticket and request KVM. they'll give you connection details. the java applet you can download and exec directly on the command line with javaws, since browser won't support the applet
1046[11:36:32] <Lope> ratrace, I asked for the console thing, but they seemed to ignore my request.
1048[11:37:05] <ratrace> Lope: they won't ignore it. they'll get back to you as soon as a device becomes available. they have limited supply of them
1049[11:37:15] <Lope> ratrace, I suppose the KVM is the way to go at this point. It's been such a monumental waste of time. With the NIC unexpectedly being dead etc.
1050[11:37:21] <mrjpaxton> jim: Oh, so you're looking for packages that you can debug? There are a lot of "-debug" packages available inthe repos, but not a whole lot. Try looking up "deb-src" and see if you can build in packages with debug symbols.
1051[11:37:27] <ratrace> it's not OVH with OOB IPMI over VPN :)
1052[11:37:33] <mrjpaxton> Because I'm not sure about that!
1053[11:37:36] <Lope> Naturally I debugged all my other shenanigans first, all the layers of shit I'm running.
1054[11:37:51] <Lope> mdadm, luks, zfs, etc.
1055[11:38:10] <ratrace> Lope: make sure you have root pass set, or unpriv user in wheel or with sudo capabilities, or else you won't be able to log in on the KVM console :)
1056[11:38:12] <mrjpaxton> LUKS with ZFS? Interesting....
1057[11:38:27] <Lope> ratrace, thanks for the reminder :/
1058[11:38:35] <Lope> (poo emoji)
1059[11:38:47] <Lope> Anyway, I better do useful stuff today, not just bang my head on a server.
1060[11:38:56] <Lope> Thanks for the amazing advice as always ratrace
1061[11:38:57] <ratrace> ZFS atop of LUKS is neat-o. half our prod servers are that. the other half is btrfs atop of LUKS :)
1064[11:39:28] <mrjpaxton> I am even having a hard time getting AirPrint and AirScan to work with CUPS. So I also have more networking projects at hand. Lmao.
1065[11:39:31] <Lope> haha, just kidding.
1066[11:39:37] <Lope> That would be a good way to troll the ZFS people.
1067[11:39:52] <ratrace> Lope: i'll betja in advance, you've got wrong enp* name . just shove that into net.ifnames=0 and make your life way easier ;)
1068[11:39:55] <mrjpaxton> It's realyl fun to do networking projects... until they become frustrating for us not completely into networking.
1069[11:40:17] <Lope> ratrace, I've quadruple checked the interface names bud!
1070[11:40:23] <ksk> mrjpaxton: draw a picture, it helps :D
1071[11:40:37] <Lope> ratrace, but yes, it seems like eth0 would be better for a remote dedi. Do you do it?
1072[11:41:05] <mrjpaxton> I'll stick to BTRFS with RAID 1 or 10 for my home NAS. :)
1073[11:41:06] *** Quits: JohnML (~john1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1074[11:41:16] <ratrace> Lope: yup. there's always just one NIC, but our ansible scripts bind them to their MACs anway
1075[11:41:21] <ratrace> "you never know"
1076[11:41:37] <ratrace> (OVH servers come with two, for example)
1089[11:44:04] <mrjpaxton> Well okay, they are modules. I know ath9k-htc does that.
1090[11:44:08] <jelly> kernel gets the preferred name from... I honestly don't know where, might be drivers, might be driver type hardcoded, but userspace does re/naming
1091[11:44:19] <ratrace> mrjpaxton: does _what_ exactly?
1104[11:46:53] <jelly> I have a usb-c ethernet: enx340a46aa1e77
1105[11:47:29] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, I have an Armbian device that is hosting my Wi-Fi with hostapd. I'm debating if I should just turn interface renaming off or not. Does it really provide that much more security?
1110[11:48:01] <mrjpaxton> It's okay, I still have the Wi-Fi and Ethernet bridged as one LAN interface, so I just use the name of the bridge for everything. Lol.
1111[11:48:11] <mrjpaxton> Problem solved.
1112[11:48:14] <jelly> it can provide help with provisioning. Or hinder it
1113[11:49:34] <jelly> I guess it might be ince if you're plugging and unplugging dozens of interfaces during the lifetime of a machine
1114[11:49:43] <ratrace> maybe it's security by obscurity because the haxxors can't .... uh...... predict....... the predictable name in advance :))))
1115[11:49:57] <jelly> (we don't, give me back eth0 and eth1 any time of day)
1118[11:50:43] <mrjpaxton> I think having predictable names is just to prevent user mistakes, more than anything. Because the computer should know best. :p
1130[11:58:15] <quadrathoch2> I would say almost mrjpaxton, but I like networkd
1131[11:58:59] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, just as a challenge I converted a working interfaces to networkd, and it works just like it did before, after fiddling. Lol. It's fun.
1132[11:59:13] <ratrace> mrjpaxton: you can rename them even with ifupdown
1133[11:59:22] <mrjpaxton> I just use itnerfaces as a testbad at this point, because I'm overly familiar with it.
1154[12:12:20] <mrjpaxton> Ah, is this another new-ish RedHat thing that's been going on?
1155[12:13:02] <jim> dunno, I just heard about it 5 mins ago
1156[12:13:17] <jim> or maybe 15
1157[12:13:25] <mrjpaxton> Just for the record, Debian is very slow to adopt new changes, and is a community/volunteer funded project by SPI. Whereas RedHat and Fedora are corporately sponsored. Don't expect new and shiny from this distro. ;)
1159[12:14:46] <jim> I understand, having run debian for about 20 years... I just figure it might be something that folks in debian might want to look into
1160[12:15:35] <jim> maybe if people find out, we get a server around the time current sid gets released stable
1161[12:15:52] <jim> (aka 2 releases from now)
1162[12:16:14] <mrjpaxton> Okay, well you are outclassing me right now, since I've only used GNU/Linux for about 10 years since switching off from Windows 7. Haha.
1163[12:17:18] <jim> yeah, I can tell stories about watching debian upgrade itself from libc4 to libc5, and at the same time move from a.out to elf
1165[12:17:41] <jim> (this would be before apt-get :)
1166[12:18:10] <mrjpaxton> Oh actually. Yes. I'm glad that you brought that up, becuase that was pretty painful. AND I was playign with Testing at the time, so even more pain. I would say it was just as bad, if not worse, than the upgradefrom GRUB 1 to GRUB 2.
1167[12:18:58] <jim> the upgrade went very smoothly, which impressed me
1168[12:19:31] <jim> I liked grub1 though, it had that grub shell
1169[12:19:40] *** Quits: JohnML (~john1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1170[12:19:56] <mrjpaxton> I weep for my days when I was on Unstable all the time. It turns out Ubuntu was really all I wanted in a desktop. Debian makes a good stable distro, but they really suck at doing rolling-release. I guess I just learn the hard way.
1171[12:20:31] <quadrathoch2> mrjpaxton so what is rolling in ubuntu Oo
1173[12:20:47] <mrjpaxton> But I really do not like how bloated Ubuntu feels compared to Debian. I am thinking of switching my desktops back to it.
1174[12:21:21] <mrjpaxton> I'd miss how up to date the software is, though.... Hmmm....
1175[12:21:29] <rk4> ubuntu is going down a little weird path, packages being a mix of snap and deb
1176[12:21:35] <mrjpaxton> But yeah, for servers... Debian all the way.
1177[12:22:09] <mrjpaxton> rk4: I know. It sucks. Chromium is no longer in the repos anymore. It's only available as a snap.
1178[12:22:23] <jim> that was at the beginning of my linux use... I went from sls, to slackware (which I destroyed by trying to upgrade libc), and looking for a dist that could upgrade itself, so trying redhat, it could not, then I went to a newish project called debian, which did
1180[12:23:56] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, I don't think I will ever use Debian Unstable/Testing again. I'd rather just use stable with backports/Flatpak or even install new software with containers or a chroot if I have to.
1181[12:24:16] <mrjpaxton> I just want a stable base system, but with some up to date packages, if I need them (for a desktop).
1182[12:24:21] <rk4> debian definitely nailed the package management side of distroing, took a very long time for redhat to almost catchup [up2date, yum, dnf[?], but dnf is a slow user experience]
1183[12:24:39] <mrjpaxton> APT will forever be king for me. :)
1184[12:25:16] <jim> much later, maybe 3 years ago, I compared a ubuntu install to a debian install... and for speeds (which is pretty much the only thing I could do), I found that debian was faster, to download (but I cheated, got a major university with a debian mirror 15 miles away), to install, and to use (sometimes debian was about twice as fast) BUT! this was not a study that I repeated, and is in no way scientific
1187[12:26:36] <mrjpaxton> Oh yeah, minimal Debian is very much a thing. if you want such a thing as minimal Ubuntu, then you'd have to install Ubuntu Server. They recommend not to even use it as a desktop, but I don't see why not!
1188[12:27:07] <jim> but these were not minimal installs
1189[12:27:31] <jim> in debian's case, I told it to install kde
1190[12:27:49] <mrjpaxton> Oh. Pff... I only use the netinstalls or minimal ISOs. It's just so much easier to install exactly what you want afterwards.
1193[12:28:22] <mrjpaxton> I tried to do the custom live CDs, but figured it was way too much work. I'd rather just install to a USB drive with persistancy... or something.
1194[12:28:49] <jim> for the debian install, I used a netinstall, but when it got to the tasksel, I had it install kde, ssh server, standard tools
1203[12:32:20] <Lope> ratrace, seems super dodgy to use?
1204[12:32:28] <Lope> ratrace, could be MITM?
1205[12:32:39] <mrjpaxton> jim: Ooh, what about options for persistency, though? I know you can do the same with Ubuntu or TAILS, but I'm not sure about Debian.
1206[12:32:44] <Lope> Do you have any mitigations for the risk?
1207[12:32:56] <ratrace> Lope: none, unfortunately that's how their KVM is set up
1208[12:33:16] <Lope> haha, so u just login and pray?
1211[12:34:01] <ratrace> Lope: unfortunately. you could bind the cert in your browser for future use. I don't know if they offer a CA you could download
1212[12:34:06] <jim> mrjpaxton, well really, the only live image I built so far, has borg backup, network support, I think xfce and gparted
1213[12:34:33] <jim> I made it to have an image to restore from backup
1214[12:34:53] <mrjpaxton> Oh yes. I desperately miss gparted from the default live images. I always think what do I need without an Internet connection, just in case....
1215[12:35:07] <mrjpaxton> And that's totally one of them. Lol.
1216[12:35:17] *** Quits: eliotome3000 (~eliotime@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1217[12:35:33] <Lope> ratrace, it's this thing: replaced-url
1224[12:38:20] <Lope> ratrace, you mean like tinyproxy or whatever?
1225[12:38:35] <ratrace> Lope: no, ssh socks proxy
1226[12:38:50] <Lope> ok
1227[12:39:00] <jim> and/or... I can try to find my image config files and you can try that, possibly modifying to lxqt instead
1228[12:39:38] <mrjpaxton> I remmeber the good old days of using Parted Magic before they turned into payware. Lmao
1229[12:40:07] <jim> I think someone I knew bought one
1230[12:40:43] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, it used to be completely free.
1231[12:41:23] <ratrace> omg paying for someone's work! what an atrocious thought!
1232[12:41:31] <jim> now you can use gparted, which is still free
1233[12:42:06] <mrjpaxton> Or parted. ;)
1234[12:42:15] <jim> right
1235[12:42:53] <jim> I couldn't get things right with parted, (but I could before with fdisk)
1236[12:43:32] <mrjpaxton> Typically, you want to use parted together with fdisk/gdisk
1237[12:43:58] <jim> that could have made sense when I was doing it :)
1238[12:44:49] <jim> by luck, a good partition table was backed up near the end of the drive
1239[12:45:39] <mrjpaxton> I think parted helps with the partition table and creation, where fdisk/gdisk does the layout more. They do seem to have options that clash, but yeah.... It is interesting.
1240[12:45:53] *** Quits: nickodd (~nickodd@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1241[12:45:57] <mrjpaxton> And then you'd use "mkfs" to create the actual filesystems for those partitions.
1242[12:46:11] <mrjpaxton> Learning how to do all of that on the CLI is a useful skill, but time consuming. Lol.
1243[12:46:33] <ratrace> parted can create, layout, remove, rename and set flags on partitions just fine
1262[12:49:09] <EdePopede> that one too, yes. only it's called FORMAT.COM only (FORMAT /mbr, remember?)
1263[12:49:29] <mrjpaxton> Oh yeah, lol.
1264[12:49:31] <Lope> ratrace, I've opened the HTML KVM thing in firefox, it showed a small window, but when I tried to open it up, it failed every time.
1273[12:50:55] <EdePopede> i think there were also some issues with sfdisk/cfdisk or what they were called, not sure of fdisk used to do everything i wanted, but i stayes away from the others.
1274[12:51:11] *** lovetolearn is now known as ltl3
1277[12:52:05] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, I don't like frontends to basic utilities that work fine. For example, htop for top, or aptitude for apt. The regular ones can work and be configued close enough just fine!
1278[12:52:33] <mrjpaxton> So obviously not a fan of cfdisk.
1279[12:52:34] <ratrace> htop is not a frontend for top tho
1280[12:52:41] <ratrace> and it has a ton of features that top doesn't
1281[12:52:52] <EdePopede> htop is nice, it lets me do things with a few keypresses. or i just didn't find top's interactive mode yes. only it messes up process names sometimes.
1282[12:53:08] <jim> I think aptitude (and apt) used libapt, rather than apt-get
1283[12:53:08] <mrjpaxton> I do agree, but you are talking to a hardcore top user here. :p
1284[12:53:27] <EdePopede> can top give you info on a particular process?
1285[12:53:29] <mrjpaxton> I want my processes to ALWAYS BE ACCURATE.
1286[12:53:33] <mrjpaxton> Yes, please.
1287[12:53:42] <mrjpaxton> Any bug in htop is no problem for me. Lol.
1288[12:53:44] <ratrace> and htop info isn't accurate?
1290[12:54:05] <mrjpaxton> I'm just being silly now. I don't hate on htop users.
1291[12:54:17] <mrjpaxton> I just don't need it.
1292[12:54:18] <EdePopede> or sort it / switch forest on and off while it runs?
1293[12:55:00] <mrjpaxton> I'm just waiting for someone who's like, bruh just use "watch ps aux"
1294[12:55:32] <ratrace> htop > top > ps in context of features, but it's purely a preference which one you like
1295[12:55:32] <EdePopede> right now i have a process (sd-pam) which is /lib/systemd/systemd. not sure if it's meant to be like this, got the impression in the past that it happens around upgrades when the original file disappears with the old package.
1296[12:55:58] <ratrace> and real admins grep the procfs :)
1297[12:56:08] <mrjpaxton> "top" is three letters, btw. Not 4. :)
1298[12:56:19] <EdePopede> accidentally used top recently (instead of ps, happens *shrug*). it cuts off process names, couldn't find a switch to turn this off?
1299[12:56:36] <ratrace> (real-er admins awk th eprocfs and real-er-er admins just launch htop in their emacs OS :) )
1300[12:57:18] <mrjpaxton> EdePopede: Could be the terminal emulator/TTY?
1301[12:57:40] <oxek> I still need to learn the proper flags to pgrep so that it shows what I want
1302[12:58:01] <mrjpaxton> I also have tree mode enabled, I use kitty (terminal) and I've never had it cut off.
1303[12:58:08] <mrjpaxton> So I dunno.
1304[12:58:18] *** Quits: szorfein (~daggoth@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1305[12:58:33] <EdePopede> and right now i also have the hierarchy SCREEN -R > SCREEN -R > /bin/bash, with the 2nd SCREEN -R actually being bash, as the other direct child processes of SCREEN are.
1306[12:58:35] <jim> if you like python, you might appreciate xonsh
1309[12:59:38] <mrjpaxton> Oh, speaking of python... export PYTHONDONTWRITEBYTECODE=x and export PYTHONSTARTUP=~/.pythonrc
1310[12:59:45] <mrjpaxton> You'll thank me later.
1311[12:59:59] <EdePopede> mrjpaxton: nope, they don't end at the same column. besides that my maximized xterm is 212 chars wide, it's mostly firefox and xfce-panel stuff reaching its right border in htop.
1313[13:00:32] <EdePopede> they are cut to 15 chars and some to another (still fixed) value. which is the next odd thing, why 2 values?
1314[13:02:17] <mrjpaxton> Hmmm.... I know you can adjust the column size with "stty cols <X>", but I don't think it can go above the limit, unless your terminal emulator has, like, a horizontal scroll bar.
1315[13:02:33] <EdePopede> as an example (normal mode) > panel-13-xfce4-
1316[13:02:52] <mrjpaxton> Have you tried top in a TTY?
1317[13:02:57] <mrjpaxton> I'm just curious.
1318[13:03:04] <EdePopede> and there's plenty of space next to it
1333[13:05:40] <mrjpaxton> My columns on 1080p is 240, because 12 point font. I don't think I have a process that goes long enough. I also have threaded mode turned off.... Maybe I can test by turning it on.
1341[13:07:16] <oxek> ratrace: but I learned a lot. For example, I learned that the situation regarding nftables and iptables is a complete mess that will not be solved for years to come.
1342[13:07:21] <Lope> how can I run the jnlp "with icedtea"
1349[13:08:33] <mrjpaxton> oxek: Yeah, I tend to stick with pure nftables without firewalld. Probably because I'm crazy, but... it seems to work better. Lol.
1350[13:08:55] <Lope> ksk, ah yes I remember.
1351[13:08:57] <ksk> Lope: might be you need to install said tool first, but its kind of bundled to icedtea, iirc.
1352[13:09:06] <Lope> ksk, I don't have javaws, only java openjdk
1353[13:09:34] <ratrace> Lope: no javaws after installing icedtea-netx?
1357[13:09:45] <quadrathoch2> oxek oO buster is defaulting to nftables, so let me read it thouroughly
1358[13:10:01] <oxek> mrjpaxton: but do you actually really have pure nftables, or is it still going through all sorts of compatibility layers and shims pretending to be iptables?
1359[13:10:13] <ratrace> you mean.... iptables in buster use the nftables backed by default, unless you install iptables-legacy
1360[13:10:15] <mrjpaxton> Yes, and thank God. After learning to use nftables for a week, I am very much a fan of it.
1363[13:10:41] <mrjpaxton> oxek: Nope! I have iptables completely uninstalled from my system now. :p
1364[13:10:48] <mrjpaxton> Just nftables.
1365[13:11:40] <jim> quadrathoch2, maybe in later kernels, they took iptables out, and replaced it with a compatibility layer, that still lets you write iptables rules, but what the compatibility layer produces, is nftables rules
1409[13:23:21] <ksk> ubuntu does also still ship jre-8 O_o
1410[13:23:32] <ratrace> but jre doesn't come with javaws
1411[13:23:46] <ratrace> or..... is there anotehr way to start the jnlp thingy?
1412[13:24:40] <mrjpaxton> I feel like the amount of old shared libraries Java 8 would need would render it uninstallable at this point. If you can chroot or use a Linux container/VM with oldstable, that might be your best chance to install Java 8.
1413[13:24:40] <ksk> icedtea-netx depends on "default-jre", and as I understand it there is a connection between "javaws" and the jre you have installed.
1415[13:25:19] <ratrace> Lope: Hetzner also has vKVM ... which is basically starting your rootfs inside a VM.... the network won't work from ousside (different IP ranges tehy use iirc) but at least you can check if your config brings out hte NIC with the static IP properly
1416[13:25:21] <ksk> I once was supplied with a Windows XP VM running Java6 ;)
1417[13:25:53] <mrjpaxton> Oh boy. I am planning to do an offline Windows XP machine for old PC games.
1418[13:26:04] <ratrace> ksk: Lope: ah..... also look at nvidia-openjdk-8-jre maybe that'll help
1419[13:26:05] <mrjpaxton> But I also want to use RDP over the LAN. Hmmm....
1420[13:26:05] <Lope> ratrace, that's not a bad idea!
1421[13:26:22] <Lope> ratrace, I've actually used JRE directly before for this purpose
1422[13:26:27] <Lope> But trying now I get this: Bad installation: JAVAWS_HOME not set: No such file or directory
1423[13:26:38] <Lope> I've set the environment variable, but it doesn't seem to want that.
1425[13:27:10] <ratrace> dunno.... now I'll be trying thir KVM interface on one of our test servers, and if I find that I can't use LARA with tools in Buster .... it's goodbye Hetzner time.
1426[13:27:13] <mrjpaxton> Not that I dislike Wine so much, but it does have regression issues with old games. Also, Windows XP is nostalgic. :)
1427[13:27:31] <ratrace> as if plain http access to the core of your server wasn't enough lololol....... OVH ain't that bad any more.
1428[13:27:43] <mrjpaxton> Not as nostalgic as Windows 98 or 2000, but still nostalgic enough.
1429[13:27:48] <ratrace> mrjpaxton: why not win10. surely it can run xp things
1430[13:27:56] <mrjpaxton> ratrace: Ew, no.
1431[13:28:01] <ratrace> ew why no
1432[13:28:05] <mrjpaxton> I'm saying for OLD games.
1433[13:28:25] <ratrace> you'd be surprised at the compatibility maze win10 _has_ to support
1434[13:29:03] <mrjpaxton> So I'm trying to figure out if I want to build a Windows XP machine, or just have a VM, and PCI-passthrough an older GPU. But I also want RDP so I can play those games on the go.
1435[13:29:14] <mrjpaxton> Yeah, I'm a wierdo when it comes to tech stuff. Lol.
1436[13:29:33] <ratrace> I pci passthrough nvidia to my gaming win10 VM
1502[14:28:40] <Lope> I wonder if I should try removing r8168-dkms
1503[14:28:56] <ratrace> Lope: "a virtual MAC address needs to be requested for each IP address via the Hetzner Robot and assigned to the guest network card." :: replaced-url
1504[14:29:01] <Lope> Going to give it a shot. Might regret it, lol.
1553[15:20:09] <freem> Hello. acpid will not daemonize when it receives something on stdin, which is to support systemd. But it seems that asking it to go foreground, with --foreground, makes it assuming stdin is open and have something to read on. Is that normal?
1554[15:20:11] <Lope> ratrace, I'm doing a test to figure out why it didn't work. I'm wondering if debian didn't like that I had tabs (instead of spaces) in my file for all lines from address and down.
1557[15:22:06] <azeem> freem: what's the problem with that?
1558[15:22:10] <Lope> ratrace, okay, it wasn't the tabs. I re-did my bridge config with spaces, and it's not working again.
1559[15:23:38] <freem> azeem: I use runit to run my daemons, and, in a common file sourced everywhere, I 1) redirected stderr to stdout and 2) close stdin. 2) makes acpid closing in loop, with no reason, and that behavior is not explicit
1594[15:31:35] <JohnDohh> is it possible with partman to format a drive without partition (using whole disk) ?
1595[15:31:48] <Hash> I am using debian sid on a test machine. I have discovered something odd. minimal debian xorg setup, xmonad/xmobar + terminal. I try to start a tray program called 'trayer' like so:
1610[15:33:58] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also replaced-url
1646[15:40:17] <yanmaani> 1gb of stuff gets swapped into zram. Then 1gb of zram gets swapped into zram, again. And so on.
1647[15:40:29] <Hash> yanmaani: Are you using it to have a ram block device or using it for compressed swap?
1648[15:40:38] <yanmaani> Hash: compressed swap
1649[15:41:14] <Hash> yanmaani: I recommend ZSWAP instead as zram meanages paging different and has much higher chance of stale pages left and going to disk
1650[15:41:23] <Hash> I read something about that, hang on
1651[15:41:38] <ratrace> yanmaani: do you actually have on-disk backing storage for swap?
1652[15:42:14] <Hash> It was someoen in #kernel... I forgot the link now.
1653[15:42:36] <ratrace> Hash: I'd love to read it because I use zswap too, and I'm being recommended to switch to zram whenever I mention zswap
1654[15:42:48] <slop> Hi all, I am getting back into Debian - havent used linux as my daily driver since like 2012. Hope this finds you doing well
1657[15:44:42] <Hash> zram: Once a page is stored in zram it will remain there until paged in or invalidated. The first pages to be paged out will be the oldest pages (LRU list), these are 'cold' pages that are infrequently access. As the system continues to swap it will move on to pages that are warmer (more frequently accessed), these may not be able to be stored because of the swap slots consumed by the cold pages.
1658[15:44:55] <Hash> What zram can not do (compcache had the option to configure a block backing device) is to evict pages out to physical disk. Ideally you want to age data out of the in-kernel compressed swap space out to disk so that you can use kernel memory for caching warm swap pages or free it for more productive use.
1660[15:46:02] <Hash> zswap: In-kernel cache is compressed, the compression algorithm is pluggable using the CryptoAPI and the storage for pages is dynamically allocated. Older pages can be evicted to disk making this a sort of write-behind cache.
1661[15:46:06] <jelly> Hash, so zram backend is actual RAM. That's kind of expected from the name
1662[15:46:15] <Hash> Needs a physical swap device (or swapfile).
1663[15:46:15] <ratrace> Hash: now that's weird, because zram _can_ evict to disk
1664[15:46:24] <Hash> Hmm
1665[15:46:27] <jelly> and zswap does less compression, IIRC
1666[15:46:39] <jelly> I get 2.5:1 with swap on zram
1667[15:46:48] <Hash> Ditto
1668[15:47:17] <Hash> I just build a new 5800x cpu 64gb ram thingy
1669[15:47:33] <Hash> Not expecting to use much swap at all for a while.
1691[15:54:33] <ratrace> personally, the whole idea of compressing it _without_ paging out is dumb. the whole idea is to free RAM of unused pages. compressing them only half-asses that job. if you're lucky to get half (50%) compressratio
1692[15:54:37] <jelly> the idea is to avoid certain classes of bugs, not to avoid buying enough RAM
1712[15:59:47] <jelly> (also, I've already killed an SSD swapping on it ;-)
1713[16:00:08] <Hash> I swap to a 10year old WD black, still 100% healthy in smart
1714[16:00:09] <ratrace> what, 10 years ago?
1715[16:00:16] <koollman> I don't think zram is single-threaded anymore
1716[16:00:17] <ratrace> jelly: ^^
1717[16:00:36] <jelly> let me see how old the replacement is
1718[16:00:45] <Hash> Regardless of the value passed to this attribute, ZRAM will always allocate multiple compression streams - one per online CPU - thus allowing several concurrent compression operations. The number of allocated compression streams goes down when some of the CPUs become offline. There is no single-compression-stream mode anymore, unless you are running a UP system or have only 1 CPU online.
1719[16:01:04] <koollman> zramctl shows a number of streams used, by defaut equal to output of nproc I think
1721[16:01:17] <koollman> so you don't need separate devices anymore
1722[16:01:55] <jelly> Power on time: 2757 days, 17 hours
1723[16:01:56] <ratrace> jelly: first gen SLC/MLC SSDs were garbage. but if you bought an ssd int he past few years, unless you bought some super cheap semi-anonymous carp, there's fat chance in hell you can kill it with swapping alone, unless you had multi MB/s swapstorms 24 hours a day, for many months.
1724[16:01:58] <Hash> I use 4 since I only have 4 cpu in my script
1725[16:02:17] <jelly> ratrace, Vertex 2 was second gen.
1726[16:02:19] <oxek> !sources.list
1727[16:02:19] <dpkg> A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb replaced-url
1728[16:02:32] <ratrace> jelly: so, one of them oldie snowflakes :)
1729[16:02:37] *** Quits: lesless (~lessless@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1730[16:02:43] <Hash> oxek: you can also /msg dpkg !sources.list
1731[16:03:01] <jelly> ratrace, they didn't even track GB Written in smart, then. The replacement Vertex 3 does.
1756[16:06:38] <ratrace> jelly: and on the servers, it's mostly unused at all, with few dozen MB when ZFS is too slow to release ARC and I have load peaks
1757[16:06:41] <jelly> ratrace, fun thing: kubernetes developers think kernel doesn't have bugs. They disable and actively check for swap being disabled.
1758[16:06:57] <ratrace> heh
1759[16:07:03] <jelly> predictably, k8s nodes hang BADLY under pressure
1760[16:07:26] <ratrace> jelly: and nobody cares because you're "supposed" to have many of them, failovers, serverfarms to migrate between!
1761[16:07:33] <oxek> Hash: thanks
1762[16:08:04] <jelly> they have fugly workarounds like userspace helpers doing "earlyoom"... that of course gets stuck like all the other userspace
1763[16:08:18] <pasiz> is out of memory situation kernel bug?
1764[16:08:30] <ratrace> jelly: so that's why lenny invented systemd-oomd :)
1765[16:08:44] <ksk> jelly: facebook begs to differ about that assessment of yours :P
1766[16:09:04] <ratrace> pasiz: no, problably sysamind's bug in the poor provisioning domain
1787[16:13:52] <Lope> I've got another hetzner server (with an intel NIC) that has a bridge, doesn't do anything special with MAC's and it's been fine for ages, never had a problem.
1788[16:14:16] <ratrace> Lope: all my bridges on Buster share the sae MAC with the eth in it.... but on Hetzner at least, that's a must as it's the NIC's MAC they use to forwar packets to you AND from you
1789[16:14:17] *** Quits: alexandros_c (~alexandro@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1822[16:20:36] <Lope> But oh so relieved to have figured this out
1823[16:20:45] <ratrace> Lope: but has that ACTUALLY solved the issue?
1824[16:20:50] <Lope> I wouldn't have figured it out if you didn't show me the stuff about the bridge
1825[16:20:54] <Lope> gonna test it now lolz
1826[16:20:56] <koollman> the main idea of oom userspace handling is that it is limited by other ways first (cgroups), then once a process is reaching the limits of the cgroup, rather than killing it, something else may be done (like raising the limit a bit and killing it properly)
1827[16:21:12] <ratrace> Lope: it was just my guess based on knowing how hetzner routers packets.... did it actually solve the issue?
1833[16:22:35] <ratrace> koollman: yeah the idea is not that bad, to use cgroups and other variables for a bit more control over usually haphazard kernel oom ... but ... one should not have oom to beign with :)
1835[16:23:02] <koollman> ratrace: I mostly agree. but the majority seems to disagree :)
1836[16:23:09] <ratrace> overcommitting your resources is not unlike overselling shared hosting. you can cram thousands of users based on a statistic that most of them use virtualy nothing, until that one joker who does, and down goes your server.....
1838[16:23:56] <ratrace> koollman: that's not majority, that the very same "lets cram thousnds of kates and then sell support" RHEL crowd.
1839[16:23:56] <koollman> in general I prefer using overcommit_memory=2, but tthere are some cases where overcommitting is justified (or preferable, maybe). typically stuff doing large mmap, or large programs that use fork
1840[16:24:41] <koollman> the influential crowd ? whoever defines defaults, and whoever doesn't ask for them to be changed. probably the majority :)
1841[16:25:01] <Lope> ratrace, the fucking bridge works.
1846[16:25:38] <koollman> like, sure, I don't care if a jvm fails memory allocation, since it can handle it. But redis do really like to avoid overcommit_memory=2, because the persistence model is designed a specific way :)
1847[16:25:43] <jelly> that was apparently the thing I saw on k8s hosts
1848[16:26:23] <koollman> (basically, fork the process then write memory to disk. But the kernel thinks "wait, all that space may be written later, so I need more space to duplicate pages. fork fails)
1861[16:36:21] <Lope> ratrace, haha cry-laughing-emoji... now that I uninstalled r8168-dkms it looks like NIC dies again upon boot. So back to recovery to re-install r8168-dkms
1895[16:57:59] <ratrace> yanmaani: it's not about performance but about kernel going belly up in high mem pressure situations with no storage to page out stuff
1912[17:09:17] <Lope> ratrace, haha so I've finished my epic investigation. I got fucked by 3 things: 1. Realtek, being a PoS r8168-dkms is absolutely required for it to function. 2. MAC Address filtering. 3. Bullseye changing the MAC.
1933[17:15:19] <Lope> I've got a buster and a bullseye system. The behavior is different.
1934[17:15:32] <dermoth> Lope, I played with realtech wifi dongles on my rpi lately... I find the new stock driver taht is meant to replace all previous usb drivers works on a cold boot, but has issue on warm boot - I came across a patch in this driver for specific id's that performs a full init even if the dongle is already initialized (or something like that, will have to dig). If cold boot / reinserting dongle fixes it that may be the issue with stock kernel driver.
1935[17:15:33] <dermoth> FWIW...
1936[17:15:40] <Lope> Both using the exact same style of etc network interfaces
1938[17:16:33] <dermoth> haven't had time to test further, but I'd like to add a module param to allow it on any dongle.. that is of course if your specific adapter is supported (not all of them are yet)
1939[17:16:37] <Lope> dermoth, although sometimes I get confused between realtek and ralink.
1940[17:16:56] <Lope> I'm not sure if I've used realtek wifi or ralink. But one of them I had to disable hardware crypto and then it worked.
1941[17:17:09] <Lope> With the crypto enabled, it transferred data at snails pace.
1964[17:21:20] <Lope> ratrace, If they give you realcrap `apt install r8168-dkms` and put this on your bridge and forever hold your peace: hwaddress ether 00:11:22:33:44:55 \n pre-up /usr/sbin/ethtool -K eth0 tso off
1966[17:23:10] <dermoth> yeah, the module in was rtl8xxxu - for now I switch to another dongle with stock rtl8192cu driver (for the chipset of the same name)... stable.... the symptoms were no auth after a reboot, but cold boot worked (reinserting the dongle should work too causes a power draw spike that resets the rpi anyway)
1967[17:23:18] *** Quits: tryte (~tryte@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1970[17:24:02] <ratrace> Lope: ah, no. if they give me realkrap, I'll be asking for a different server
1971[17:24:47] <dermoth> a while back I also used one on my computer, would fail on occasions. I wrote a network monitor daemon that killed usb power for a second when router became unreachable. different issue though.
1972[17:25:45] <ratrace> my workstation's r8169 WorksFine(tm) tho
1973[17:26:21] <Lope> ratrace, wise hahahaha
1974[17:26:43] <dermoth> So...back to what I came here for :) I'm running two graphical desktops on my home computer (two users... both me so security / separation between both isn't a concern) - but I'm having audio issue on occasions - I don't reboot often too. I feel like I may not have the ideal setup as I've been though many os upgrades.
1975[17:27:01] <ratrace> Lope: btw, pretty sure you can ask for another NIC, if you're not in the mood of changing the whole server. for ~50€ they'll replace it
1976[17:27:05] <dermoth> is there any doc that describes exactly what audio daemons/setup I should have in a fresh Buster install?
1977[17:27:23] <dermoth> before I install in in a vm and start comparing...
1980[17:27:37] <Lope> ratrace, I've had problems with realcrap in my laptop, and on my workstation's onboard (4 years ago) and again a month or 2 ago, to the point where I said fuckit and installed another realcrap NIC that's the SAME CHIPSET, but different revision, that works.... LOL.
1981[17:27:54] <BCMM> dermoth: don't think so, and also it will depend on what tasks you selected
1982[17:28:04] <Lope> But I've just tried the new tso disable workaround in my workstation's init scrips. So I'll test my onboard again some time :)
1987[17:28:45] <dermoth> I run pulseaudio - one daemon per user - in the worst cases I have to likk all, unload and reload all audio modules, restart pulseaudio and reapply the proler sink profile
1988[17:28:48] <Lope> ratrace, surely on a ryzen consumer CPU they're using onboard shit?
1989[17:29:02] <Lope> ratrace, I asked them for another NIC, they suggested I do workarounds!
1990[17:29:04] <Lope> hahahaha
1991[17:29:16] <dermoth> I think for my case tey recomment a single system pulde daemon though
1992[17:29:55] <dermoth> BCMM, so on a fresh install I would have a user-spawned pulse daemon correct?
2041[17:44:38] <dermoth> well tbh my vdi plugins is very old as it has to match the old version I have to use at work, until they upgrade it - I actually use it, but it's barely usable once you know all the quirks and workaround to limit crashes to a minimum
2049[17:45:41] <dermoth> latest version started crashing sometimes even without zoom plugin loaded, but before that it was pretyt sble. There's also occasional keyboard layout annoyances if you don' use a us layout
2057[17:47:36] <jelly> yanmaani, when were your /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts files last changed?
2058[17:47:36] <dermoth> slop, fwiw been using it for quite some time, probably ~5 years... before they renamed it from Citrrix Reciver... so with previous Debian Stable versions too
2076[17:52:44] <jhutchins> dermoth: cron was the original scheduling program. cronie and anacron are comparative newcomers.
2077[17:52:50] <yanmaani> jelly: /etc/hostname, a few months ago. /etc/hosts, a few hours ago, when I changed it to add the new hostname so sudo would stop whining.
2078[17:53:07] <dermoth> anacron uses cron to start hourly, dayly, weekly, monthly jobs
2096[17:59:06] <dermoth> 25 6 * * * root test -x /usr/sbin/anacron || ( cd / && run-parts --report /etc/cron.daily )
2097[17:59:14] <Voltum> yeah mine too
2098[17:59:33] <dermoth> so anacrons overides run-parts dor daily and breater intervals apparently
2099[17:59:38] <dermoth> for
2100[17:59:41] <Voltum> i haven't figured if cron and anacron are complementary or replace one another
2101[18:00:23] <Voltum> from what i remember anacron has an extra functionality, that if you miss your scheduled cron job, it tries to run it as soon as possible
2102[18:00:26] <Voltum> instead of skipping it
2103[18:00:28] <yanmaani> jelly: /etc/hostname has the old hostname (that I want).
2104[18:00:28] <dermoth> I think anacron spreads the jobs rather than runinng then all at once...and/or ensures jobs are run after downtime
2121[18:03:46] <dpkg> Use «hostname foo» to set the hostname, $EDITOR /etc/hostname to set it for the next boot (create /etc/hostname if it does not exist) and $EDITOR /etc/hosts to set up local translations for a FQDN. See also 'man 1 hostname', or ask me about <mailname>. replaced-url
2122[18:04:01] <yanmaani> jelly: I just rebooted, and it was after this the issue started. So my hostname was not what it said in /etc/hostname.
2123[18:04:05] <dermoth> actually nowadays anacron also has a systemd timer for hourly... interesting... why I still have the hourly run-parts (regardless of that timer) and why other intervals haven't been implemented with timers too
2124[18:04:10] <yanmaani> So do I have `hostname hostname` in some autostart script
2152[18:15:55] *** Quits: kakaka (~koniu@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2153[18:17:04] <dermoth> if that's just it, fine. if oyu need HDX., there's a bug in the installer where the x86_64 version checks if arch is armhf, and fails because it's not the right arch - change the check for x86_64
2156[18:18:13] <dermoth> I reported it to Citrix, then they realized I made it to work so they figured the issue was resolved and closed it... go figure
2178[18:26:01] <jhutchins> If you run a command with su you're still the original user.
2179[18:26:08] <Numero-6> jhutchins: yea that back in current user
2180[18:28:34] <jelly> yanmaani, perhaps it was set somewhere in systemd settings using hostnamectl ? No idea where those get stored
2181[18:28:40] <Numero-6> that better to use su - root than su -l ?
2182[18:28:46] <Numero-6> just a banal question
2183[18:28:55] <jelly> Numero-6, "su -" is enough
2184[18:29:11] <jelly> and the shortest of all those equivalent options
2185[18:29:19] <Numero-6> yea because in past i used only "su"
2186[18:29:30] <jelly> !buster su
2187[18:29:30] <dpkg> In buster, su no longer overrides PATH by default, requiring that you use "su -" or "su -l" for login shells (which is not really a new thing at all...). See replaced-url
2188[18:29:31] <Numero-6> and now with buster that make probleme with sbin
2189[18:29:52] <Numero-6> Ok so always su -
2190[18:29:56] <jelly> yes
2191[18:29:59] <Numero-6> i have write in my brain
2192[18:30:04] <Numero-6> :D
2193[18:30:26] <jhutchins> su - <user> gives you a shell as <user>, and <user>'s environment.
2194[18:30:37] <Numero-6> and that more easy you just do su - <user> -c "cmd"
2195[18:30:41] <Numero-6> yea
2196[18:31:04] <jhutchins> Numero-6: That may not have the results you're after.
2198[18:31:49] <jhutchins> Numero-6: Although I use that format to run commands as root, so it might work for you.
2199[18:32:01] <Numero-6> i just no use sudo, so when you have lot of cmd requierd root and other no, you do always switch
2200[18:32:22] <Numero-6> and i have always a root terminal open for check and other
2201[18:32:57] <jhutchins> Yeah, I never got into the habit of using sudo for single commands. I just become root, do whatever I need to do, then drop back to my user.
2202[18:33:03] <Numero-6> and when i make a doc about a tutorial i want write easy just like copy/past
2203[18:33:19] <Numero-6> so that why i ask for run a cmd in normal user, in session root
2206[18:35:58] <rendar> i have uninstalled a package, postgresql-11, and i use `dpkg-query -l "$@" >/dev/null 2>&1` this script to check if the package is installed or not, but it doesn't work because with that command, the package results installed, since i get this line: `un postgresql-11 <none> <none> (no description available)`, how to fix this?
2207[18:36:06] <rendar> i think that i could ditch all lines that starts with 'un' ?
2208[18:36:11] <rendar> but i'm checking the dpkg-query return value there
2209[18:36:13] <rendar> any clues?
2210[18:37:00] <slop> ty ty on Citrix tips dermoth, jhutchins will try those
2220[18:42:01] <giaco> hello! When apt upgrade is performed and there are some dkms modules installed, the system compiles the dkms modules so that they would be ready to modprobe before next kernel boot. How does this system works?
2223[18:42:44] <giaco> I'm asking this as I would like to know how this is working on a real debian, to fix what is non-working in debian-like raspbian
2224[18:42:59] <jhutchins> giaco: I think what happens is on the boot after the kernel upgrade, dkms checks the incompatible modules and re-runs the build.
2225[18:43:21] <jhutchins> !raspian
2226[18:43:21] <dpkg> Raspberry Pi OS (previously called Raspbian) is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian (or #raspberrypi) on irc.freenode.net for support. replaced-url
2227[18:43:24] <giaco> jhutchins: so it happens on next boot, not before next boot
2228[18:43:54] <jhutchins> As far as I know, and I use it for my nvidia drivers.
2229[18:44:17] <jhutchins> giaco: There's always the possibility that raspian does it differently.
2235[18:44:56] <giaco> I'm not asking anything about raspbian
2236[18:45:07] <rendar> any help?
2237[18:45:14] *** Quits: Numero-6 (~Numero-6@replaced-ip) (Quit: << - Qui etes vous ? - Je suis le nouveau numero 2 - Qui est le numero 1 ? - Vous etes le numero 6 - Je ne suis pas un numero ! Je suis un homme libre!! >>)
2246[18:49:39] <BCMM> giaco: which bit of the system are you wondering about? if it helps, a "something-dkms" package usually depends on the dkms framework, which it invokes in postinst
2247[18:49:41] <jhutchins> giaco: I just want to emphasize that they are different, they change things, and we can't know what they do and don't change.
2248[18:49:53] <rendar> karlpinc: i know that, hence i added: 18:36 | <rendar> but i'm checking the dpkg-query return value there
2249[18:50:11] <rendar> how can i check if postgresq-11 package is installed or not, by checking exit code of some command?!
2250[18:50:25] <BCMM> jhutchins: i'm sorry, but giaco made it 100% clear that they were asking about how debian works, and are prepared to work out for themselves how raspbian differs
2251[18:50:27] <greycat> rendar: dpkg -l should suffice
2258[18:51:24] <karlpinc> rendar: You can't use the exit status of dpkg-query to tell anything other than whether the query you gave to dpkg-query was valid or otherwise failed.
2259[18:51:34] <greycat> karlpinc: that sucks.
2260[18:52:02] <greycat> karlpinc: ... and appears to be untrue.
2262[18:52:17] <greycat> "dpkg -l sdhkfjsd" gives me exit status 1 here
2263[18:52:31] <rendar> greycat: the point is dpkg -l returns 0. replaced-url
2264[18:52:37] <giaco> BCMM: I know what dkms do, as I have manually created some dkms modules that would "dkms autoinstall" nicely. I also see that debian has some system to kick-in dkms recompilation when apt update installs a new binary kernel and kernel-headers. So what I am asking is how this automatic "dkms autoinstall" system works when debian is in the condition of running a kernel but ready to boot in next one
2265[18:52:37] <karlpinc> greycat: The man page says: 1 The requested query failed either fully or partially, and 2 Fatal or unrecoverable error due to invalid command-line usage.
2266[18:52:39] <giaco> on next restart.
2267[18:52:41] <greycat> rendar: it does not do that for me.
2268[18:52:53] <rendar> greycat: look at that printing, it says (un) flag to postgresql-11
2299[18:56:36] <rendar> greycat: yeah i saw that, but do you refer to Desired=XYZ or Status=ABC? I can't see if (un) refers to Desired=Unknown or Status=Unpacked
2300[18:56:37] <karlpinc> greycat: It may be that the exit status depends on whether or not the supplied query identifies a package that exists....
2314[19:00:11] <BCMM> particularly as it looks like /etc/kernel/header_postinst.d/dkms would trigger whenever a new kernel headers package is installed
2315[19:00:15] <giaco> I was expecting something on kernel-headers upgrade
2316[19:00:18] <BCMM> (hook installed by the dkms package)
2317[19:00:33] <giaco> nice spot BCMM, thanks
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2319[19:02:29] <greycat> dkms doesn't build things at boot time, no. It builds things at package installation time.
2336[19:07:29] *** Quits: gravitos (uid355353@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2337[19:07:34] <BCMM> so looks like anybody could put stuff in /etc/kernel/header_postinst.d to have it trigger on kernel header installation, but currently only dkms actually does
2338[19:07:37] <giaco> next unrelated question. Is there a file, in debian, containing the info about the kernel that will boot next, while still running old one?
2339[19:07:56] <BCMM> giaco: as in, telling you which kernel would be booted?
2340[19:08:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1236
2341[19:08:14] <giaco> BCMM: yeah, that short version :D
2342[19:08:33] <BCMM> not sure, but i don't think as it would presumably depend on the bootloader you are using
2343[19:08:40] <giaco> k
2344[19:08:50] <BCMM> but i don't think dkms tries to detect that
2345[19:09:25] <quadrathoch2> dkms builds for every kernel available
2346[19:09:25] <BCMM> i think it just does it for every kernel that's installed
2381[19:27:04] <sponix2ipfw> I rebuilt wireguard-dkms and now when I rmmod wireguard and modprobe wireguard only the wireguard module itself and the ipv6 stuff is loading, NOT ipv4 stuff that I need for it to function
2382[19:27:19] <sponix2ipfw> Anyone have a quick solution for this that doesn't involve a reboot ?
2383[19:27:52] <zutat> how is the kernel image package called? i can find linux-config, linux-doc, linux-headers and so forth, but can't see an image in the list
2389[19:31:47] <zutat> hmm. for some reason, the search on package.debian.org wouldn't list any linux-image- packages for buster-backports, but just browsing the packages lists several packages named like that
2421[19:48:06] <dpkg> The version number of a package has a prepended number called the "epoch". It is only added when the system for upstream version numbers changes. Example: in sarge, X was version 6.8 but in etch it was 1.1 (xfree86->xorg). But 1 < 6, so we add an epoch "2:" to signify that everything with 2: is newer (if there is no : the epoch is assumed to be "0"). See section 5.6.12 of <policy> or ask me about <compare versions> <debian revision>.
2448[20:07:24] <EdePopede> just ran a test session on the other PC after the first one seems to run like forever, killed the other processes (tracker-miner-fs, tracker-miner-apps, applet.py, agent) manually, waited for checked after one and a half hours now, and the systemd tree is gone.
2449[20:07:48] <sponix2ipfw> I changed routers and my network also went from 192.168.1.* to 192.168.50.* -- for some reason my default gw still comes in as 192.168.1.1 on every boot, even though it should just be pulling a dhcp lease
2450[20:07:59] <greycat> EdePopede: sounds like a question for #systemd
2451[20:08:02] <sponix2ipfw> anyone know where I might have manually configured this or something ?
2452[20:08:24] <EdePopede> greycat: won't they send me back to #debian because debian?
2455[20:08:48] <queip> (cross git) any editor that shows 2 files line by line and allows to select easily to take each line from file A or B? kind of like meld, but not just working on diff and each line is separate?
2458[20:09:47] <EdePopede> i thik i'll give it a 3rd try first and not kill anyhing. if the processes end anyway than maybe this is how it *should* work normally.
2493[20:28:05] <JordiGH> A few years ago I added some images to a pdf. I can't remember what program I used to do that. I just need to add my signature to a pdf form. Any clue what I used?
2494[20:28:38] * greycat spins the wheel of guessing ... you used ... adobe acrobat!
2495[20:29:28] <JordiGH> No, no non-free software.
2496[20:29:48] <JordiGH> I thought I converted to flpsed but that doesn't allow adding images.
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2515[20:44:21] <zutat> i installed a linux-image from backports. it displays an error about a missing firmware file on boot and freezes there. does it need some additional packages?
2541[20:59:46] <sponix> slop: that is the thing, netstat -rn shows 192.168.1.1 as the default route/gw after a restart. This was the network for my OLD router, the new one is 192.168.50.1 -- Everything was dhcp, and it was still getting the old gateway
2591[21:40:42] <Kocane> Anyone who can help me wih some xorg/xinit/xrandr related? I got an Intel NUC running Kodi that starts with /usr/bin/xinit thru a systemd file. But it seems to me it doesnt output full range RGB and I'm having some trouble figuring out how I got about configuring it correctly. I've seen something With Xrandr it seems possible to output it with "--
2592[21:40:42] <Kocane> set "Broadcast RGB" "Full"" but I don't get how to configure that if I'm using xinit.
2593[21:42:57] <zutat> wouldn't a xorg configuration file help?
2595[21:43:35] <sponix> slop: still working on it, somehow my eth1 is getting both the new and the old networks (192.168.1.144 192.168.1.1) (192.168.50.144 192.168.50.1) -- and they conflict
2596[21:43:43] <EdePopede> is ps from debian not able to show processes of a user as tree? or is just its manpage total crap?
2597[21:43:55] <greycat> The "f" option does the tree thing.
2598[21:43:59] <Kocane> zutat: does that mean in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d?
2599[21:44:09] <greycat> ps f -u someuser
2600[21:44:15] <EdePopede> i always use faux and i have no idea how to not show everything
2601[21:44:15] <sponix> I seem to have hardcoded the old network in the OS somewhere. But it isn't in dhcpclient.conf or /etc/network/interfaces where I normally look
2602[21:44:16] <greycat> note the lack of a - before f
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2608[21:46:18] <zutat> Kocane: yes. you should be able to use the options in a config file there. i would guess that they go to a "monitor" section of such a file
2609[21:46:22] <EdePopede> great. with faux it displays the systemd group, then the others, with f -u it reverses the order
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2620[21:52:27] <Kocane> zutat Hmm, thats where I came across "Intel doesn't have an option to set colorspace in their xorg.conf yet. If you want to set the colorspace then you will have to create an autostart.sh file and use the following"
2622[21:55:14] <zutat> Kocane: i don't have access to an X machine, but there should be a way to put the same options in a config file as what you use with xrandr
2650[22:11:20] <wr> how would i install a Ralink RT2870 Linksys WUSB600N v1 Dual-Band Wireless-N Network Adapter on debian 10.7?
2651[22:11:35] <sney> !ralink firmware
2652[22:11:35] <dpkg> Firmware from userspace is required by the <rt61pci>, <rt73usb>, <rt2860sta>, <rt2870sta>, <rt2800pci> and <rt2800usb> drivers. Ask me about <non-free sources>, then install the firmware-ralink package to provide.
2653[22:11:40] <CommunistWolf> ralink are weird - or were
2682[22:36:47] <sponix2ipfw> slop: when I get home, I am going to go with a different approach, I'm just going to change the IP scheme on the router to match what my Linux rig thinks it must be LOL
2683[22:37:22] <sponix2ipfw> slop: appreciate your help though. at this point I think doing it on the router is going to require less effort
2701[22:44:27] <sney> ok? if lsmod shows the rt2800usb driver, it doesn't matter how many times it's in the list, that just means it's loaded. and the device is "installed".
2702[22:44:35] <sney> and you can now configure it
2707[22:49:10] <wr> sney, on my NM it doesn't show up, so i would have to use terminal?
2708[22:49:52] <sney> if it's not visible in n-m, check if it already has an entry in /etc/network/interfaces, as n-m will ignore any interface specified in that file
2728[23:02:00] <wr> sney, seems so, i am just checking which is which cause i have three cards and or the naming confused or it wasn't on list but now is
2775[23:18:53] <dpkg> We're sorry your distro's channel isn't being helpful, but that doesn't make it appropriate to use #debian for non-Debian questions. Please go back to your channel and wait patiently for better help, or install Debian and party with us.
2818[23:39:01] <pfred1> jhutchins There have been releases where they had serious problems too
2819[23:40:35] <jhutchins> pfred1: Not too many with Debian. I got caught by a few bad ones on Mandrake. (like dovecot wouldn't start on my mailserver because the config file format was obsolete, and obviously nobody had tested it).