26[00:36:27] <Kobaz> i was in the middle of a dist-upgrade and systemd somehow got installed
27[00:36:32] <Kobaz> i removed it and now my ssh is hosed
28[00:36:51] <Kobaz> trying to start sshd.... 140106446894840:error:25066067:DSO support routines:DLFCN_LOAD:could not load the shared library:dso_dlfcn.c:185:filename(libssl_conf.so): libssl_conf.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
43[00:50:45] <somiaj> with the recent vote, B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives, debian will still be open to explore using sysv (or other init systems) but you might run into issues like this if running testing/sid, also if running testing/sid use #debian-next on irc.oftc.net
108[02:02:54] <themill> oxek: one of them is actually a different font (Droid Sans) pretending to be arial.ttf
109[02:03:36] <themill> oxek: so yes, you understand the policy and a non-free font like arial.ttf can't be in Debian main... but so do the maintainers of these packages :)
110[02:04:23] <oxek> all is fine then, and it's a bit annoying they use the arial font filename (that then links to a different font or is in actuality a different font)
111[02:04:51] <oxek> how did you find out that the 3rd was pretending to be a different font?
112[02:04:53] <yanmaani> business idea: automated clean-room reverse-engineering fonts
113[02:04:59] *** akp55_ is now known as akp55
114[02:05:14] <yanmaani> render arial to bitmap surface, vectorize to ttf, adjust automatically as needed, save
152[03:14:25] *** Quits: MESSIAH (52055942@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
153[03:15:32] <somiaj> BlueMatt: backports are kinda hit/miss depending on the package, testing/unstable questions should be asked in #debian-next on irc.oftc.net
157[03:19:10] <somiaj> I don't see why you pinged the matainer, first it is preferable to just file a bug report, and second, 3.20 is already avaiable.
171[03:24:56] <somiaj> yea, I didn't see that bot you and that bug report seem to suggest 3.20 was the fixed version (At least for that issue)
172[03:25:34] <somiaj> anyways, wish list bugs are the standard way to ask for a new upstream version in sid. backports as I mentioned are a little more hit/miss.
178[03:32:58] <sponix> BlueMatt: if you manage to put in a request for it to hit Sid. I can help you do the backport of it from there if it doesn't have too many deps
179[03:34:06] <sponix> somiaj: someone answered my prayer for qemu in backports btw. I can now run the latest Mac OS X for amusement
255[05:15:05] <tomnz888> Before I have filter log in TRACE, after I run modprobe && sysctl, I could have filter and nat TRACE log. After a dist-upgrade to 4.19.0-10, then i got nothing.
256[05:15:09] <somiaj> What exactly are you trying to do? Is something not working right and you need better logs, or you just want more detailed info about what packets are flowing trhough your firewall -- I'll see if my googlefu can help
302[05:58:16] *** Quits: koniu (~koniu@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
303[05:58:18] <KNERD> On Stretch, I was ablle to install GNOME Web which was included in gnome-core. I am not seeing GNOME Web anywhere in Buster. Only thing I am finding is to install is from snap store. What's going on with it?
480[09:35:04] <somiaj> it is the networking.service that runs ifup during boot, so systemd will capcature it, you might see it in systemctl status networking, or might need journalctl
489[09:38:20] <somiaj> hegemoOn: looks like yes, man interfaces says the scripts are run by 'run-parts(8)', man run-parts says "run-parts runs all the executable files named within constraints described below", so +x is needed
563[11:03:27] <nobyk> Anyone here that prefers xanmod?
564[11:03:42] <ratrace> !anyone
565[11:03:42] <dpkg> Please do not ask if anyone can help you, knows 'something' or uses 'some_program'. Instead, ask your real question. (If the real question _was_ "does anyone use 'some_program'?" ask me about <popcon> instead.) See <ask> <ask to ask> <polls> <search> <sicco> <smart questions>.
567[11:04:26] <nvz> never even heard of it before now
568[11:04:52] <nvz> and can't imagine why I'd want someone else maintaining a suped up kernel for me..
569[11:06:15] <nvz> granted the kernels are getting a bit beefy, but its still rather trivial to make your own
570[11:06:24] <jelly> nobyk, what is xanmod?
571[11:06:36] <nvz> its a RT linux kernel distribution
572[11:07:25] <nvz> sounds like a chop shop for the kernel where you can go get yourself a 6sec kernel instead of your grandma's kernel from your distro :P
573[11:07:37] <jelly> much different from debian's rt flavors?
574[11:07:40] <nvz> dpkg, xanmod?
575[11:07:42] <dpkg> nvz: KCI error, or a problem with the Keyboard-Chair Interface.
579[11:08:22] <judd> Package linux-image-rt-amd64 (kernel, optional) in buster/amd64: Linux for 64-bit PCs (meta-package), PREEMPT_RT. Version: 4.19+105+deb10u5; Size: 8.0k; Installed: 17k
580[11:08:22] <nvz> dpkg xanmod is <reply>XanMod is a general-purpose Linux kernel distribution with custom settings and new features. Built to provide a stable, responsive and smooth desktop experience. replaced-url
581[11:08:24] <dpkg> okay, nvz
582[11:08:35] <ratrace> I play games on regular debian kernel. xanmod is placebo
583[11:08:55] <nvz> it would seem that RT kernels arent their only thing.. they just apparently are for whatever reason distributing custom kernels
584[11:09:09] <nvz> I don't get it frankly.. heh
585[11:09:48] <nobyk> I was told it might be better for laptops in terms of battery life
586[11:10:04] <jelly> this ck guy used to make kernel patches that had a noticeable difference in apparent responsiveness and latency
587[11:10:22] <nvz> their project is hosted on SF it seems.. nuff said :P
588[11:10:24] <jelly> but that was a while ago, and I have a faster computer now
589[11:11:20] <nvz> sounds like its more geared toward people who have SNS but are too dumb/lazy to make their own kernel
590[11:11:54] <jelly> I see they carry some of CK's patches (and probably that CK still makes them)
594[11:16:22] <ratrace> non-mainstream and "alt" software used to be interesting 10 years ago. these days the software (and demands of it) is so much more complex, security so much more of a problem, thatn I wouldn't dare using anything but well tested and widely used, y'know where the actual "Many eyes" are.
617[11:49:15] <ratrace> jelly: that's the paradox of it. we have fastre computers and then developers come up with silly notions like "developer time costs more than cpu time", so they use abominations like Electron and mega frameworks that bloat up and slow down everything.
618[11:50:46] *** Quits: BenNZ (~Ben__@replaced-ip) (Quit: Everytime I think IQ's must have dropped recently, I remember that this is the internet)
718[13:32:41] <Mava42> hey folks, looking forward to install netplan to monitor my server. is there something else handy tool for monitorin I should be aware of in addition to that?
719[13:33:31] <ratrace> Mava42: netplan? monitor? netplan is Ubuntu's network config framework. is there an other netplan?
725[13:35:05] <Mava42> you know when you are typing somethign too fast and you notice the coffee cup at the table and start to think of how delicious it is
726[13:36:17] <ratrace> I prefer Munin. Mostly because I've been using it long before all these fancy new monitoring web apps and services appeared, and it has served me well. Ain't broken, I won't fix it :)
727[13:36:33] <eventhorizon5> Mava42: I use netdata also on my server. You could try setting up 'sar' which is very helpful for detailed historical reports
728[13:37:04] <eventhorizon5> Mava42: the command is in the sysstat package
730[13:37:47] <thms0> I would like to use Openssl 1.0.1 (Jessie) with PHP 5.3 (Squeeze). I installed libssl, openssl but phpinfo() still use 0.9.8o. Is my only option to recompile php ?
731[13:37:50] <Mava42> ratrace: thanks for the munin tip! I really would have missed that without you
732[13:38:16] <Mava42> eventhorizon5: thanks for that tip as well, definitely gonna take a look
733[13:38:36] <ratrace> thms0: pretty much. I'm sure you're ware that 5.3 is EOL and no longer patched for security
734[13:38:42] <ratrace> *aware
735[13:38:50] <thms0> ratrace: yes I aùm. Thanks :)
736[13:39:03] <oxek> how come /etc/hushlogins no longer works on debian? I work around it by creating ~/.hushlogin for each user.
738[13:39:29] <oxek> I looked through the manpage of login, and there's no mention of /etc/hushlogins, but it exists in the historical manpages of login.
887[15:38:41] <ratrace> note the difference between supporting `snapd` the daemon, which is a bit limited on Debian, but working, and supporting random snap
888[15:38:43] <neilthereildeil> heres the error im getting: replaced-url
889[15:38:49] <CyberManifest> ratrace: doesn't Mint support flatpacks ?
890[15:38:56] <ratrace> CyberManifest: you'll have to ask Mint
896[15:40:43] <ratrace> again, distros can support snapd (and whatever daemon is for flaptak), in that it runs and can fetch stuff from the store, but that's about it.
897[15:41:27] <CyberManifest> neilthereildeil: did you man apt-secure?
898[15:41:40] <CyberManifest> !man apt-secure
899[15:41:40] <dpkg> man apt-secure is probably at replaced-url
900[15:41:41] <ratrace> I'm making this distinction because it is VERY important to understand that snaps and flatpaks are third party applications with gods know what level of QA and audit. there already HAVE been malware in snaps.
901[15:42:18] <CyberManifest> ratrace: flatpacks isn't snapd though
902[15:42:20] <neilthereildeil> no. is it just "apt-secure update"?
903[15:42:47] <ratrace> CyberManifest: it's the same concept. anyone can create and upload a flatpak to the hub, or am I missing something?
904[15:43:23] <CyberManifest> ratrace: and this can't happen with Any Apps?
905[15:43:32] <ratrace> CyberManifest: on flatpak and snap store? yes.
906[15:43:48] <CyberManifest> even debian packages
907[15:44:09] <ratrace> tehcnically yes, but it's very unlikely
908[15:45:06] <CyberManifest> ratrace: while this isn't Debian: replaced-url
909[15:45:51] <ratrace> correct, it isn't debian.
910[15:45:58] <CyberManifest> ratrace: well it's the same on debian
911[15:46:12] <ratrace> what is? malware in packages?
913[15:46:36] <CyberManifest> ratrace: don't know, but at the least a bug
914[15:47:10] <ratrace> there's many bugs. but so far none of them is at the level of malware that happened with snaps.
915[15:47:12] <CyberManifest> ratrace: I mean screenfetch is just a shell script so it could potentially be used as malware
916[15:47:39] <CyberManifest> ratrace: FileZilla?
917[15:48:05] <ratrace> what?
918[15:48:09] <CyberManifest> malware
919[15:48:15] <ratrace> what are you talking about
920[15:48:27] <CyberManifest> FileZilla was known to ship with malware
921[15:48:32] <ratrace> on debian?
922[15:48:59] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: the difference is that with packages in the official debian repositories, those things are signed with debian keys
923[15:49:14] <nevivurn> and you implicitly trust the people shipping your operating system, by necessity.
924[15:49:19] <CyberManifest> don't know hadn't looked, but it did on Windows,, and people even on ##linux were warning me to stay clear of it
925[15:49:21] <hwm4rgs> Wasn't that just SourceForge injecting adware in the Windows installer wizard thing for FZ?
926[15:49:40] <ratrace> CyberManifest: so why are you mentioning it. that has nothing to do with the subject , or even debian at all.
927[15:49:51] <CyberManifest> nevivurn: so why can't snap packs and flatpacks be signed with debian keys?
928[15:50:05] <nevivurn> Because debian isn't maintaining those?
929[15:50:20] <ratrace> difference between snaps and .debs, in THIS context, is that anyone can upload to snapstore. anyone. andything. .deb packages, from official debian repos, are curated, tested, very well tested before they come down to Stable.
930[15:50:32] <nevivurn> If you trust the people publishing snaps and the such, that is perfectly fine.
932[15:50:48] <ratrace> now, technically it IS possible for malware to get through, especially with help of a maintainer, hypothetically, but it is very unlikely and so far, afaik, never happened.
933[15:50:59] * nevivurn looks at openssl
934[15:51:08] <nevivurn> :P
935[15:51:12] <ratrace> CyberManifest: I really couldn't care less about windows malware
936[15:51:26] <CyberManifest> ratrace: but it's a software title like GIMP or Audacity etc.
938[15:51:30] <ratrace> I'm talking about security implications of debian official repos vs snaps/flatpaks
939[15:51:37] <CyberManifest> why is Snap and Flatpack any different?
940[15:51:43] <ratrace> CyberManifest: it didn't affect debian, so it's irrelevant
941[15:51:55] <ratrace> CyberManifest: I just explanined why
942[15:52:08] <CyberManifest> ratrace: as I've shown packages slip through undected
943[15:52:09] <ratrace> "difference between snaps and .debs, ...."
944[15:52:12] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: the difference is in trust. People running debian are forced to trust debian maintainers. People running random snaps and such are forced to trust random people uploading stuff to the snaps hub.
945[15:52:15] <Haohmaru> there's no "installer" on linux.. things don't wurk like that
946[15:52:17] <ratrace> CyberManifest: on debian?
947[15:52:24] <CyberManifest> ratrace: Yes
948[15:52:36] <nevivurn> And generally, people trust debian maintainers more than random people uploading stuff to the snaps store.
950[15:52:53] <ratrace> CyberManifest: that doesn't prove anything and the issue was closed as non-issue
951[15:53:10] <ratrace> please file a bug report in BTS if you have knowledge of malware being introduced in regular, official debian repositories.
952[15:53:13] <ratrace> !bts
953[15:53:14] <dpkg> Bug Tracking System for Debian packages, replaced-url
954[15:53:16] <CyberManifest> ratrace: that FileZilla was even on Linux
955[15:53:38] <ratrace> again, if you have knowledge of malware being introduced in debian packages through regular repositories, please file a bug report asap.
956[15:53:57] <CyberManifest> ratrace: nope, Never Filing any bug reports or malware reports ever again
957[15:54:03] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: the issue with FileZilla or whatever is a completely separate issue from whether you trust *random people* uploading crap to flathub.
958[15:54:03] <CyberManifest> it's met with hostility
959[15:54:05] <ratrace> good for you, so this issue is moot.
962[15:55:56] <CyberManifest> nevivurn: it's no different that ftp or something, it's up to the user to take responsibility what they download from Flathub or Snap just like what you download from FTP or from anything that conects outside the walled guarden of Debian
963[15:56:01] <CyberManifest> garden*
964[15:56:39] <nevivurn> Yup, that is correct.
965[15:56:45] <ratrace> if by "walled garden" you mean standard, official debian repos, then definitely yes. downloading random FTP code from random places is not too different than downloading a random snap.
966[15:57:25] <ratrace> only snaps are containerized so it's LESS likely, but not impossible, they'd harm your host or install unwanted files _outside_ of their root
967[15:57:34] <CyberManifest> ratrace: and yet tech support would probably extended for an ftp app or like base apps like curl or wget etc.
968[15:57:47] * hwm4rgs chews popcorn
969[15:57:49] <nevivurn> ??
970[16:00:11] <CyberManifest> are mail and browser apps taboo too cause they're a potential for malware?
971[16:00:11] <oxek> dka: walled guarden (sic) actually sounds like it should be a thing
972[16:00:33] <oxek> ehh, sorry I did not mean to tag you
973[16:01:02] <jelly> CyberManifest, every piece of software has "potential" to have malware embedded.
976[16:01:29] <CyberManifest> jelly right, but only some seem to be cherry picked to be *supported* by debian
977[16:02:09] <jelly> CyberManifest, yes, Debian has limited resources. You can volunteer your time and package some more, as long as it's DFSG-licensed
978[16:02:11] <nevivurn> If by cherry-picked you mean "packaged by debian", sure?
979[16:02:11] <ratrace> jelly: yes but the important difference is how likely that can happen in certain vector
1013[16:07:08] <CyberManifest> broken package on buster
1014[16:07:10] <jelly> CyberManifest, the thing is, Debian is composed of lots of people, mostly volunteers, some paid; people providing realtime support on irc are not all the same as people managing packages
1027[16:09:12] <Haohmaru> wait, so ur saying it's not broken on debian?
1028[16:09:13] <ratrace> so this is a totally misplaced conversation, lol
1029[16:09:17] <nevivurn> !raspbian
1030[16:09:17] <dpkg> Raspberry Pi OS (previously called Raspbian) is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian (or #raspberrypi) on irc.freenode.net for support. replaced-url
1031[16:09:24] <Haohmaru> CyberManifest bruh
1032[16:09:26] <ratrace> something something broken on something out there and somehow Debian's fault.
1033[16:09:29] <nevivurn> That makes a lot of sense, right right.
1034[16:09:29] <ratrace> *PLONK*
1035[16:09:42] <CyberManifest> Haohmaru that's not what I'm saying at all
1036[16:09:51] *** Quits: b30wulf (uid175355@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1037[16:09:57] <CyberManifest> Haohmaru: it is broken on Debian as well
1074[16:13:17] <hwm4rgs> CyberManifest: 3.8.0-8 works fine in zsh. replaced-url
1075[16:13:27] <ratrace> Haohmaru: I think quantum mechanics would break EVEN in this example :))))
1076[16:13:30] <hwm4rgs> Go bother the raspberry people.
1077[16:13:41] <Ede|Popede> well played, hwm4rgs :D
1078[16:13:48] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: yeah, ok sure. Come back to us (and if you do find a bug, do report it) if you can properly describe how it is broken.
1079[16:13:59] <CyberManifest> hwm4rgs: your sudo apt policy screenfetch
1080[16:14:15] <CyberManifest> nevivurn: Fuck You
1081[16:14:17] <ratrace> this whole convo about screenfetch started with it being given as example of MALWARE in debian ......
1082[16:14:21] <Haohmaru> shh, bruh
1083[16:14:22] <wsky> whoa
1084[16:14:35] <ratrace> oh I hear the bannhammer wakin' up.
1085[16:14:39] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: it's not really useful to try to get information about installations where it works perfectly well, describe your system and now it's broken there.
1105[16:16:50] <ratrace> raspbian is NOT debian, btw.
1106[16:16:51] *** Quits: saxin (~saxin@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1107[16:16:51] <CyberManifest> hwm4rgs: I'm not now
1108[16:16:53] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: if you're being serious, please describe *how* it's broken. Do you see any unexpected behavior? Any wrong output?
1109[16:16:54] <Ede|Popede> <CyberManifest> Haohmaru: not on debian, I did with raspbian because at the time I was using it.
1110[16:16:57] <CyberManifest> It wasn't raspbian
1111[16:17:10] <ratrace> lol Ede|Popede just quoted you......
1113[16:17:49] <nevivurn> "This site is not an official Debian project. While the maintainer (Gunnar Wolf) is a Debian Developer, content herein provided should be considered unofficial."
1114[16:17:50] <CyberManifest> nevivurn: yes it reports the shell as a number instead of the sheel
1115[16:18:01] <Haohmaru> CyberManifest look here, bruh, if you have Debian.. actual Debian stable.. and you are experiencing a problem - you can come in here and explain your problem and wait for help..
1116[16:18:03] <CyberManifest> shell
1117[16:18:10] <Ede|Popede> uh, may remember this page
1118[16:18:21] <ratrace> CyberManifest: but you gave that as example of malware on Debian, no?
1119[16:18:22] <Haohmaru> instead, you're talking about other sh*t and people can't get you to answer simple questions
1121[16:18:31] <CyberManifest> Haohmaru, well I'm not on it anymore
1122[16:18:47] <CyberManifest> Haohmaru, it may be ARM specific
1123[16:18:59] <hwm4rgs> (a shell script)
1124[16:19:12] <CyberManifest> Haohmaru: what simple questions?
1125[16:19:26] <Haohmaru> "how is it broken" <- someone asked you this like 5 times
1126[16:19:34] <CyberManifest> and I answered that
1127[16:19:40] <Ede|Popede> where?
1128[16:19:41] <nevivurn> To be fair, they did answer that, albeit not in a helpful way.
1129[16:19:42] <Haohmaru> on the 6th time?
1130[16:19:47] <ratrace> given your language here...... I am actually HAPPY you're NOT reporting bugs any more. As a former maintainer, I __hated__ toxic people like you. demanding shit and alll... replaced-url
1131[16:19:51] <CyberManifest> nevivurn: yes it reports the shell as a number instead of the shell
1132[16:20:30] <CyberManifest> ratrace: YOUR TOXIC
1133[16:20:32] <nevivurn> CyberManifest: just so you're clear, replaced-url
1160[16:27:56] <ratrace> Ede|Popede: speaking of, if you tell it you don't have internet during installation, you're not bothered with creating an online account
1162[16:28:37] <Ede|Popede> ratrace: yeah, i kept it in some dusty memory bank just for the case i may ever need it ;)
1163[16:28:39] <ratrace> was installing W10 in a VM with virtio network, and didn't have network (which required later adding the RH virtio_net drivers). surprised how fast that went
1199[16:36:24] <Deknos> hey, i run kubuntu in a virtual machine (virtualbox) on debian buster as a host. and i want to take a screenshot there, but when i press print, nothing happens.. any idea?
1200[16:36:45] <Deknos> i deactivated print for the host as well for the screenshot (spectacle), i have kde both on guest and host
1206[16:37:27] <dpkg> i guess kubuntu is yet another Debian derivative. It is <Ubuntu> with KDE instead of GNOME. As such, it is not Debian and is not supported on #debian (see <based on debian caveats>). For kubuntu support, please join #kubuntu on chat.freenode.net.
1216[16:39:45] <Haohmaru> at worst you could run one of those GUI screenshot toolz
1217[16:39:46] <Deknos> i want to make a screenshot IN the virtualmachine (with pressing print if possible), but as my keyboard goes through host and virtualbox to guest, i am not sure where this blocks/hangs
1220[16:40:12] <Haohmaru> and the virtual thing is.. kubuntu?
1221[16:40:47] <Deknos> but i have IN the virtual machine a full screen size application so i cannot navigate to some button on some application but have to use my physical keyboard
1248[16:54:57] <Ede|Popede> odd, `xev -event keyboard` still produces "KeymapNotify event, serial 26, synthetic NO, window 0x0" when i just move the mouse
1249[16:55:02] <Deknos> Ede|Popede, that i want to know too
1282[17:20:14] <ratrace> Deknos: not that wild at all. such unintuitive differences are plenty and reason why factoids like !based on debian exist, and why we can't support derivatives. who knows what kind of change is done
1310[17:36:51] <Deknos> ratrace, i did not ask you because of debian, but because of virtualbox on debian. i thought something in virtualbox blocks. :) i asked in kubuntu, too, for the case it was in kubuntu
1405[19:02:39] *** Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
1406[19:02:40] <kwami> Hi every1, where can I find a debian specialization school to get a debian expert certification
1407[19:03:06] <ratrace> is that even a thing
1408[19:03:21] <kwami> Dont know, but should be
1409[19:03:40] <fireba11> kwami: i suggest starting with LPIC but those are distro-agnostic
1410[19:03:58] <ratrace> There's LinuxAcademy too, for distro agnostic stuffs
1411[19:04:35] <kwami> The point is: even though linux has the same base, but I think the market must to choose professionals according to the distro
1412[19:04:46] <ratrace> but I don't know how valuable all those certs are. If you want a cert for professional reasons, job opportunities, then RHEL certification is the way to go
1413[19:05:00] <ratrace> kwami: nah, enterprise only cares about RHEL
1415[19:05:20] <ratrace> (the kind of enterprise where these certifications are valuable, I mean)
1416[19:05:22] <fireba11> kwami: most linux guys handle every distro just fine
1417[19:06:06] <ratrace> yeah don't be so sure, there's many differences. I for example wouldn't dare handling centos in enterprise production without toying wiht it for a few months.
1418[19:06:11] <sney> yeah, if you have RHEL (or hell, any of the Unix certs) and you actually have the skills and aren't just a paper tech, you will be fine using any modern *nix and technical managers know this
1419[19:06:15] <fireba11> i used to work with debian only, new job got centos all around ... a bit annoying but didn't really make much difference
1420[19:06:54] <sney> no, what's the RH cert called. RHCE, there we go
1421[19:07:04] <ratrace> there's several RHEL certs
1432[19:09:10] <ratrace> I worked with SELinux for years, then I Switched to AppArmor which I'm doing today. it'd take me some time to re-learn all the SELinux peculiarities
1433[19:09:26] <sney> kwami: what's your real goal, here? are you hoping to learn the skills needed to work in linux ops with debian and derivatives, or formalize skills you already have? your initial question could go either way
1434[19:09:28] <kwami> For extense, I wanna open a small company to give especific support to debian machines on production enviroment
1435[19:10:12] <ratrace> kwami: also don't rely on certs so much. if my company was hiring, the cert would me nothing, you'd be given a test to see how you'd handle situations that were specific to us.
1436[19:10:20] <ratrace> would *mean
1437[19:12:00] <ratrace> also if you wanted to work for us, extensive experience with zfs and/or btrfs would be a requirement, neither of which is certified by RH
1438[19:12:56] <sney> in tech, especially in ops, experience is king. nobody but HR *really* cares about the alphabet soup if it's not backed up by real-world experience
1439[19:13:10] <ratrace> indeed.
1440[19:13:33] <sney> this can be kind of a catch-22 if you're young and skilled, but most of us figured it out somehow
1441[19:13:52] <kwami> sney: I work with debian almost 5 years and I did notice that debian is as good as the paid systems leading the market on linux segment. So I intend to create a small company to support customers handling debian linux server (Its a inexistent thing in my country)
1452[19:15:25] <somiaj> Deknos: and the path to DD is a long one and requires much more than just skills with debian.
1453[19:15:31] <Deknos> i work on and with linux for over 10 years. i still do not know jackshit
1454[19:15:36] <ratrace> Deknos: same here.
1455[19:15:41] <Deknos> but maybe i am just a dummy
1456[19:15:41] <n4dir> Deknos: same here.
1457[19:15:48] <flayer> me too
1458[19:15:51] <sney> in the land of the blind, etc
1459[19:15:55] <ratrace> and I'm a professional sysadmin :) and DBA. And python dev. And devops. and security guy :)
1460[19:16:19] <sney> I've retired from IT twice now and I'll only go back if society collapses, but helping for free is fun sometimes
1461[19:16:28] <Deknos> ratrace, i am a professional sysadmin and devops and python dev as well. and i saw other people too. that does not mean anything anymore in the times of online courses
1462[19:16:37] *** Quits: var (~examknow@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
1463[19:16:42] <Deknos> there people out there... >.<
1466[19:17:04] <ratrace> Deknos: I mean, I do have all that exp, but I still know jack shit. for exeample I wouldn't be hired in a company that wanted cocker or k8s experience.
1486[19:19:40] <somiaj> it also depends, 5 years as a hobbiest running a home server, or 5 years in a production enviorment are much different.
1487[19:20:03] <ratrace> the former knows more. the latter is probably locked into one paradigm like docker and can't do anything wihtout it :)
1488[19:20:05] <Deknos> my greatest experience is always when i or my colleagues fuck something up
1489[19:20:06] <somiaj> I have like 20 years of running home servers, but I know nothing, yet some how my job to save money has me manging their department servers too
1497[19:22:00] <ratrace> I was hobbying around linux since early 2000s, started doing it professionally circa 2008
1498[19:22:08] <somiaj> n4dir: dpkg-reconfigure locale, did you build the en_US locale?
1499[19:22:32] <somiaj> n4dir: now days only the utf-8 one is built by default and I think you need to manually go select en_US
1500[19:22:36] <somiaj> well utf-8 and C
1501[19:23:21] <somiaj> kwami: though sounds like a cert won't do you much good, starting a business will probably be a strugle until you get a few satsified clients and testomonials
1502[19:23:26] <n4dir> somiaj: thanks, let me try
1503[19:23:51] <somiaj> at least if I was ever looking for a company to outsource, I wouldn't care about certs, but other clients and satsifaction
1504[19:24:10] <steve_> Hello, I'm installing debian onto a USB drive and it takes forever, almost 24 hours later and it is still at "Select and Install software". Mostly "Unpacking" some package. Is that normal?
1505[19:24:47] <ratrace> kwami: aside to what somiaj suggested, be sure you always "dogfood" your services. offering email server support? be sure you're running your own. web services? have ngixn and/or apache power your sites, on your own hosted servers, ...
1511[19:25:37] *** Quits: otisolsen70_ (~otisolsen@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1512[19:25:39] <lycanthrope> Hello people, I am new to Linux and Debian, is there any newbie friendly way to learn, how this preseed cfg works? Is there any option like "gui Kickstarter" for Debian?
1518[19:26:36] <kwami> somiaj: actually a feel myself able to handle majority of what companies demand in my country. But the prob is we are linux new user in my country, so most of holders just want to deploy servers with distros they hear about
1519[19:26:45] <steve_> ratrace: odd that it's even going at all. It's the DVD iso on USB stick #1, I selected to get packages from the Internet, and the install target is Usb Stick #2
1520[19:26:56] <somiaj> lycanthrope: are you needing to install debian on lots of systems? (just wondering if preseed is the best way to go if you are new). Most of the preseed docs I've seen are taking the example one and edit it.
1521[19:27:00] <kwami> And the fact of some distros being paid the prefer it
1522[19:27:16] <somiaj> lycanthrope: have you found replaced-url
1523[19:27:28] *** Quits: kreyren_ (~kreyren@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1542[19:34:01] <lycanthrope> How do you guys install debian without monitor?
1543[19:34:20] <somiaj> steve_: there are various ways to do persistence, some just do a persistant $HOME, but if there are packages you need not on the live system, that means you ahve to install them each time. There are ways to make the live system have peristant packages, and there are ways with live-build to build a custom live system with the software you use. There is a lot of variety here (and most methods do take a bit
1544[19:34:26] <somiaj> of work)
1545[19:34:59] <somiaj> lycanthrope: I have never had to do that, but the debian isntaller contains an ssh option, but you need a monintor (even over a serial port) for a few questions to turn that option on, then you can ssh in and finsih the install
1546[19:35:20] <steve_> I see it is a thing on google, first time hearing of this, thanks
1547[19:35:31] <somiaj> lycanthrope: that preseed contains most the common options, I think more obsure ones you have to look into debconf a bit more (I don't know the details on this)
1548[19:36:32] <sney> lycanthrope: are you trying to install a headless system for the first time? there may be a simpler approach.
1549[19:36:44] <somiaj> lycanthrope: there are also ways to debootstrap and install a system directly to an hd, then move it to the machine and boot from it, there are also tools (I think puppet) that can help automate this, but these are thigns I've never done and only seen in passing....others here have more experience and might ahve better advise.
1552[19:38:14] <sney> lycanthrope: ok. don't @ people on irc, most clients ignore that kind of highlight. your easiest option is to connect a monitor for the first few minutes of the install, enable the installer ssh server, and do the rest remotely.
1553[19:38:27] <lycanthrope> somiaj: tell me where to look in debconf? How to look?
1554[19:39:01] <lycanthrope> Sorry first time irc user
1555[19:39:48] <sney> you can also install debian on a different computer, make sure initramfs-tools is set to modules=most, configure the network as best as you can and then move the hard drive to your server. linux isn't married to specific hardware so this usually just works
1556[19:40:24] <n4dir> sney: but you would still need to get grub installed, no ?
1558[19:40:50] <somiaj> n4dir: part of doing that installs grub on the hd you transfer over.
1559[19:40:54] <sney> ^
1560[19:41:12] <n4dir> yeah, but how would you boot from that hd? or does it "just work" ?
1561[19:41:17] <sney> just worsk
1562[19:41:30] <n4dir> oh my god. voodoo. (kidding aside: thanks for the info)
1563[19:41:43] <sney> the OS drive in the system I'm typing this on is on its 3rd computer now, and all I've ever had to do is set the disk order in the bios
1577[19:43:34] <somiaj> n4dir: provided the firmware is setup to boot legacy/uefi (depending on how the drive is setup), the networking is usually a bigger snag. If the firmware isn't setup to boot from the hd, that is another story.
1578[19:44:16] <somiaj> neilthereildeil: what exactly do you need mongodb for, mongodb-c-driver is in debian
1579[19:44:33] <neilthereildeil> the app i am installing requires it
1580[19:45:07] <n4dir> i yet have to run in a wired connection which doesn't work right away, but that might be me
1581[19:45:07] <somiaj> neilthereildeil: requires it in what sense? replaced-url
1582[19:45:38] <neilthereildeil> cuckoo sandbox requires mongodb for the front end web interface in django: replaced-url
1583[19:45:46] <oerheks> neilthereildeil, i would expect https for mongodb.org, that would require apt-transport-https..
1585[19:45:48] <somiaj> n4dir: interface names are a bit harder to predeitc these days since they won't always be eth0....that is more the issue I was thinking.
1586[19:46:19] <neilthereildeil> i got the key downloaded
1587[19:46:23] <lycanthrope> Ok guys I will try tomorrow and let you guys know. Cya
1596[19:47:10] <neilthereildeil> but update gives errors still
1597[19:47:12] <somiaj> neilthereildeil: okay just checking it wasn't just the libaries you needed which are in debian.
1598[19:47:51] <n4dir> somiaj: ah right you are. That was different with eth0
1599[19:48:00] <somiaj> oerheks: although apt-key is being depericated..., though that still works, I htink it is preferable to add certs manually to /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/
1601[19:48:55] <oerheks> somiaj, oke, i was just using replaced-url
1602[19:49:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1176
1603[19:49:20] <somiaj> yea, apt-key is currently sptting out a warning in testnig at least, unsure if it is yet in buster, still works, just sharing info
1734[21:21:06] <hiya> So, basically, I am trying to enter bios of my laptop, I cannot. It just asked for FDE password. Do not follow any DEL, F1,F2,F8,F12
1761[21:28:23] <hiya> So esc and f10 and f2 isn't working
1762[21:28:28] * greycat remembers when computers used to display information on the screen, including the name of the key you had to press to enter the BIOS, and would actually GIVE YOU A FEW SECONDS to hit said key AFTER displaying information... man, that was a long time ago...
1763[21:28:40] <ratrace> a bit misnomer, it's "full sans /boot and efi and/or bios_grub" :)
1764[21:29:06] <greycat> now it's literally "hit esc as many times as you can after you power it on, hell fuck it, BEFORE you power it on, just keep banging it like a bongo"
1765[21:29:09] <flayer> greycat, nobody has patience for that
1766[21:29:16] <flayer> you want boot and go
1767[21:29:18] <flayer> boot and go
1768[21:29:22] <ratrace> they still do. it's monitors that are now severely lagging and turning on seconds after the signal is available because they have entire mcro operating systems inside them
1769[21:29:25] <ratrace> greycat: ^
1770[21:29:29] <hiya> Omg with F7 it gives me boot device option + enter setup :)
1771[21:29:32] <hiya> Got it
1772[21:29:51] <ratrace> like this AOC piece of crap I have. takes literally 5 seconds for it to detect signal and display it.
1773[21:30:48] <ratrace> annoying given that I often switch between VM GPUs and each has its own physical cable to the monitor.
1785[21:31:44] <ratrace> neilthereildeil: you should really talk to mongodb people. that softawre is no longer supported by debian. third party repos aren't either.
1786[21:31:58] <neilthereildeil> hmm nobody in that channel responds :(
1787[21:32:02] <ratrace> well bummer.
1788[21:32:19] <hiya> Isn't f7 a bit odd?
1789[21:32:30] <ratrace> they have forums, discords, twatters, whatever the fancy new kids use these days.
1790[21:33:02] <greycat> F7 is probably some limited "boot device selection" menu rather than the full firmware menu
1791[21:34:18] *** Quits: Night-Shade (~TimF@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1809[21:43:13] <Aurora_v_kosmose> For an easy example, make a VM with one 728MB of RAM, however much Swap you want, install Firefox, and attempt to watch a video.
1814[21:44:50] <fireba11> jup, usually you got your swap troughput in monitoring and if it's above 0 outside or reboots you got a problem :-D
1815[21:45:06] <ratrace> sure but linux without swap is gonna go crazy in memory pressure situations. more info at the link above
1816[21:45:35] <fireba11> so make 512m or 1g swap just to have some ;-)
1817[21:46:28] <Aurora_v_kosmose> ratrace: My thought is mostly that if you ever approach such a situation even with swap, you'll just lockup for a different reason.
1818[21:46:31] <greycat> A better question would be, why on earth are you trying to view videos in firefox in a 728 MB "RAM" virtual machine?
1819[21:46:46] <Aurora_v_kosmose> greycat: Artifical test of what happens when you don't have enough RAM.
1820[21:46:56] <Aurora_v_kosmose> greycat: It was my easiest-to-reproduce one which came to mind.
1821[21:47:32] <ratrace> no need for VM. just install gnome and chrome. :)
1822[21:47:48] <Aurora_v_kosmose> Heh, on my older laptop that'd probably have been true.
1823[21:47:56] <ratrace> "Oh you got 16GB of RAM? Haha. Holy our beer." ChromeGnome
1824[21:48:02] <ratrace> *hold
1825[21:48:05] <Aurora_v_kosmose> oof
1826[21:48:24] <sney> could have said "make a VM with 728MB of RAM, host a website written in java, then visit it from 1 client machine" but then the java people would start yelling about how that only sucks with bad programmers
1827[21:48:33] <Aurora_v_kosmose> lol
1828[21:49:06] <ratrace> sney: I'd love to argue against, but I can't, all I need is to look at my PyCharm memory usage :)
1829[21:49:12] <Aurora_v_kosmose> Joking aside, the runtime used makes a difference.
1830[21:49:13] <greycat> to be fair, I've got firefox and chrome open, and chrome has a youtube tab open (but not playing a video currently), among other things, and I still have a couple gigs of "free" memory out of 12 GB total
1831[21:49:22] <Aurora_v_kosmose> graalvm vs openjdk
1832[21:50:17] <Aurora_v_kosmose> So yeah, my thought is that if you're nearing a situation where lack of swap might make your system misbehave, you're also dangerously close to the point where swap won't help either.
1833[21:50:20] <neilthereildeil> would i need swap on a linux xen host with 256gb ram?
1836[21:50:59] <neilthereildeil> but only 4 gm reserved for host?
1837[21:50:59] <fireba11> neilthereildeil: technically no, but set 1-4gb anyway since 0 is an issue
1838[21:51:04] <neilthereildeil> gb
1839[21:51:35] <neilthereildeil> fireba11: ya thats exactly what i did
1840[21:51:48] <Aurora_v_kosmose> This one I do not know for sure but suspect, but wouldn't a swap partition on an SSD also cause issues such as premature degradation?
1841[21:51:49] *** Quits: Jerrynicki (~niklas@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1842[21:51:54] <neilthereildeil> 252 gb for virt machines, 4 for host
1843[21:52:21] <neilthereildeil> its a server
1844[21:52:30] <neilthereildeil> no user interaction
1845[21:52:44] <neilthereildeil> and if i have to swap out, id rather error
1847[21:53:18] <Aurora_v_kosmose> That's my reasoning behind most of my own servers not being granted swap. Since any lockup means I messed up.
1848[21:53:55] <greycat> A small amount of swap lets you optimize by paging out the never- or rarely-used services, freeing a bit more RAM for file cache.
1849[21:54:20] <ratrace> Aurora_v_kosmose: it wouldn't
1850[21:54:40] <neilthereildeil> id prefer to keep it resident'so i might give host 8g
1851[21:54:43] <neilthereildeil> but not swap
1852[21:54:53] <neilthereildeil> i think this is for more advanced users
1853[21:54:57] <neilthereildeil> to configure without swap
1854[21:55:01] <Aurora_v_kosmose> ratrace: No degradation?
1855[21:55:08] <ratrace> that's a common myth. So let me tell you an anecdote: I ran gentoo on an SSD for 5 years. gentoo builds prorgams. every update, it has to write out, compile, rewrite, delete, A LOT of IO. after 5 years, you kow how many TB it had written?
1856[21:55:32] <ratrace> barely 10TB. rated for 30TBW. after 5 years. and still going strong, I've put it to host windows VM games
1857[21:55:53] <ratrace> you know what's the WORST io cause on your regular desktop? it's quite non-intuitive, until you look.
1858[21:56:08] <ratrace> the browser. each page you open it writes ALL the data on disk cache. all js, all css, all images, all html, all everything.
1859[21:56:27] <ratrace> so much so that browsing alone would cause several GB _daily_ for the frstrim service.
1860[21:56:36] <ratrace> and I watch a lot of Netflix so all those vids are cached on disk as well....
1861[21:56:52] <Aurora_v_kosmose> I did notice that, and I've considered just mounting a tmpfs on my .cache/Mozilla
1879[22:01:15] <ratrace> Aurora_v_kosmose: yes, fstrim.service reports several GB cleaned up per day
1880[22:01:47] <ratrace> *reported, I meanwhile migrated the workstation to a pair of rust spinners, and I'll be putting it back on SSDs tomorrow actually.
1882[22:02:21] <ratrace> Aurora_v_kosmose: but my point is even with THAT.... after 5 years the SSD reported ~10TBW, which is nothing, they're typically 100TBW
1883[22:02:34] <ratrace> well, samsung evo 860 is at least. 300TBW if I'm not mistaken
1884[22:02:52] <yanmaani> Aurora_v_kosmose: Maybe look into zswap
1885[22:03:00] <yanmaani> but that's stupid. If you set no swap, then they'll do thrashing instead
1886[22:03:02] <Aurora_v_kosmose> Hm... I suppose 100TBW might be okay for a laptop. I'd probably go for the 300TBW for SLOG though.
1892[22:03:57] <yanmaani> if you have swap, it can take the least useful parts of ram and hide those away on disk, and then use the ram for disk cache instead
1893[22:04:03] <yanmaani> which is gonna improve IO performance
1894[22:04:13] <Aurora_v_kosmose> ratrace: That much read yes, write... well, if everything put into RAM goes through swap before finally being discarded entirely...
1895[22:04:21] <ratrace> zswap (and zram as I've learned recently) will page out to disk after set treshold
1919[22:12:50] *** mgmt[m] is now known as joaquinito01
1920[22:13:14] <ikus060> On my personal lapatop, I see a bunch od UDP packet send to various IP, port 8888, data len=1 I'm wondering how I could find which application is sending those
1927[22:15:58] <oxek> I just realized I don't have a tool to take a screenshots. What tools are available in debian for that, and which one do you recommend?
1954[22:32:32] <somiaj> oxek: scrot is nice, though you can use xwd directly, though often need to then convert the resulting raw file with imagemagick
1955[22:32:51] *** Quits: szorfein (~daggoth@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1956[22:34:13] <somiaj> xwd is part of x11-apps, which is often installed (though noticing it doesn't seem installed by default anymore on my recent system)
1959[22:35:05] <sney> I used to use imagemagick for it with the 'import' tool, but then DEs started including something that would launch automatically when I hit printscreen and I never went back
1960[22:35:11] <sney> I don't even know what the one I use now is called
1975[22:44:47] *** Quits: n4dir (~n4dir@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1976[22:45:08] <jmcnaught> On GNOME PrtScr leaves a PNG of the desktop with a timestamp in the filename in ~/Pictures, and Alt-PrtScr captures only the active window.
2014[23:09:12] <ham5urg> Is there a possibility to check the power used by my laptop? I mean the total consumption of battery loading and running the laptop.
2015[23:09:24] <HelloShitty> Can er scroll up in those text mode terminals?
2069[23:26:48] <somiaj> It might depend on the display manager, though tty7 is often the location.
2070[23:26:58] <ratrace> and before systemd... I think it was inittab that would specify this, but that was used by a xorg-spawning service, xinit or startx, can't remember now
2071[23:27:46] <somiaj> One thing I do like about systemd doing this is that startx takes over the tty it runs on (and not launch on an open one)
2072[23:27:47] <greycat> before stretch, startx from tty1 would create the X session on tty7 (usually)... but nowadays, startx from tty1 starts the X session in tty1, and you can't access the underlying console
2073[23:28:06] <greycat> so, as I said, it's usually either 1 or 7. just try both.