People who Joins , Parts or Quits a chatroom
this is #debian an IRC -Channel at freenode (freenode IRC service closed 2021-06-01)
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136 [01:44:33] <crestfallen> hi months ago I looked into a anon email server that ran in the terminal. I forget the name, but I think its not maintained, and I couldn't get it to work. are there any other contenders out there? I just thought it was cool..
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175 [02:10:01] <de-facto> is replaced-url
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177 [02:10:36] <de-facto> or just very likely 33:33?
178 [02:10:59] <dvs> de-facto, if it's under 1000, then yes.
179 [02:11:31] <de-facto> asking because of defining sane fallback defaults, so i can just use 33:33 and assume it will be replaced-url
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299 [04:00:40] <hanasaki> current release version of debian buster dovecot imap with thunderbird is reporting the following error. openssl client works fine against the server and thunderbird works fine against gmail with imap ... thoughts/? I don't see any bugs open / have already searched the web. TLS handshaking: SSL_accept() failed: error:14094412:SSL routines:ssl3_read_bytes:sslv3 alert bad certificate: SSL alert number 42, session=
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416 [05:57:28] <terr__> anyone in? Looks pretty quiet
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424 [06:01:23] <annadane> terr__, if you have a question just ask, many people lurk
425 [06:01:54] <annadane> and/or say nothing unless there are questions because it's a support channel
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430 [06:05:05] <terr__> annadane, only a very newbie kvm question - like - can I BOTH boot a bootable partition running say stretch and then boot the same in a virtual machine. I think I can but I would have to totally clone (as in copy) the bulk of the installation to another partition - umount from the host operating system, and then load the guest. I also think virsh can do this - but I spent like 10 minutes looking at docs.
431 [06:06:41] <terr__> annadane, I have used a vm before - its what I need - only issue is I didn't use it this decade.
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440 [06:17:41] <dgp> terr__: You might be able to use the same block device in both but two kernels accessing the same filesystem is going to break it. If you export it via NFS and use an NFS root in the kvm you can probably do it
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503 [07:12:39] <tripkin> terr__: I have cloned a drive into a vm and from a vm to a physical drive - using clonezilla - works fine. Booting the same boot device (debian) in a physical then a vm then back to a vm should work, but you do run the risk of causing problems with the os.
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505 [07:13:46] <tripkin> I have successfully done it, cloning a vm to laptops running amd and intel processors with different video cards - using the same image - quite successfully.
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508 [07:14:18] <tripkin> Not sure about doing it 'simultaneously' though. That seems like a real edge case. What would be the purpose?
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511 [07:15:46] <annadane> you can do that?
512 [07:15:49] <annadane> i love open source
513 [07:15:56] <tripkin> As an example, I cloned a physical installation to a vm, customized and updated it, then cloned it back to the original dell laptop, as well as a different model dell and an acer laptop. Worked fine except for needing a specific driver for one of the wifi cards
514 [07:16:16] <tripkin> Absolutely. Works great. Cannot do it with Windows because of drm.
515 [07:16:38] <tripkin> Linux just does a modprobe on boot and selects the correct drivers if they are available.
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517 [07:17:17] <tripkin> Yeah, open source really beats the tar out of closed source. Lets us do some absolutely ridiculous things sometimes.
518 [07:17:40] <annadane> except the tar isn't available, because it's closed source
519 [07:17:43] <annadane> sorry, dumb joke
520 [07:18:07] <tripkin> Makes it easy to look after 20+ laptops. Just need to change the machine name so they don't have conflicts on the same lan segment
521 [07:18:14] <tripkin> annadane: lol
522 [07:18:18] <JackFrost> Yeah, I used squashfs to turn a computer virtual before as well.
523 [07:18:33] <tripkin> Didn't realize tar was closed source
524 [07:18:34] <JackFrost> tripkin: Don't forget to update the UUID too.
525 [07:18:52] <tripkin> JackFrost: didn't have problems with the uuid
526 [07:19:04] <JackFrost> You should still re-generate /etc/machine-id.
527 [07:19:15] <tripkin> Ok. How would I do that?
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529 [07:20:25] <JackFrost> systemd-machine-id-setup can do it.
530 [07:20:30] <annadane> it's not
531 [07:20:42] <tripkin> aha got it! Thanks JackFrost
532 [07:20:54] <annadane> you can view things within tarballs, so it's not closed source, the joke was just "beat the tar out of closed source"
533 [07:21:11] <tripkin> Ah hahahaha
534 [07:21:12] <JackFrost> tripkin: It's important for things like popcon, etc.
535 [07:21:16] <tripkin> Thanks annadane
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538 [07:21:34] <annadane> though i'm sure you can package a binary blob inside a tar ball along with all the open stuff
539 [07:21:39] <annadane> but it was just a stupid joke, pay it no heed
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541 [07:22:07] <tripkin> JackFrost: this is simply for using a website, but the principle stands. I will incorporate that into my post clone script. Thanks!
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543 [07:22:51] <tripkin> Nah, it isn't. It may seem stupid, but I thought it was funny
544 [07:22:52] <JackFrost> I've also used squashfs to backup and move a server, had to correct the disk UUID of course.
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610 [08:09:47] <nlpqda> I don't mean to step on any toes, however I need to know how to create catalina bootable usb drive under debian. any positive hints are welcome
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639 [08:29:44] <terr__> I was in bed. I have a mild cold/flu. I am up and down hour by hour. I missed most of the discussion on VMs and will have to revisit this. I can not do it now. Maybe later. Maybe tomorrow
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641 [08:30:11] <annadane> terr__, not a ton was said, i can copy/paste if you like
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644 [08:32:43] <annadane> terr__, replaced-url
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656 [08:40:51] <RamouneS> bonjour
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658 [08:42:45] <annadane> bonjour RamouneS
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702 [09:05:30] <tschutschatsche> Hello, does anyone know how I can install the tool `bpftool` in my Debian system?
703 [09:05:48] <tschutschatsche> It seems like there is no package for it
704 [09:06:00] <ksk> ,file bpftool
705 [09:06:05] <judd> No packages in buster/amd64 were found with that file.
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714 [09:14:35] <Aebian> I use kde plasma and noticed whenever I lock the screen it sometimes occurs that the touchscreen stops functioning. I then tried a 'killall plasmashell; kstart5 plasmashell' but this didn't resolve the problem, so I believe it is not related to kde. Do you have any hints I can take to analyze the root cause of this?
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722 [09:16:26] <rain1> hi
723 [09:16:59] <rain1> when i tried t oupdate my machine this happned areplaced-url
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725 [09:18:12] <jm__> why did you create separate /boot?
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728 [09:19:44] <nevivurn> rain1: how large is your /boot?
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730 [09:21:12] <rain1> 243M
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735 [09:23:05] <jm__> start by checking its contents, i.e. get rid of old kernels if you don't need them
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749 [09:25:16] <rain1> thanks
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756 [09:28:43] <wikan> is it possible to create a filesystem`s namespace and make directory content changes visible only for members of that namespace?
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761 [09:29:37] <wikan> for example: ls /home/username/projects shows different content depending on namespace
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765 [09:30:43] <wikan> i don't know what should I look for
766 [09:31:19] <Aebian> you mean a variable?
767 [09:32:29] <wikan> nope
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770 [09:32:53] <wikan> well, something like tmpfs and kernel namespaces, where...
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775 [09:33:09] <wikan> ...I can create tmpfs from namespace and it is visible only for namespace members
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779 [09:34:20] <wikan> so I looking for something what would allow me to "serve" different content of the same directory (depending on fs namespace)
780 [09:35:20] <terr__> annadane, hey thanks. I appreciate the paste.
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782 [09:35:53] <terr__> annadane, right now the reason to do this is to confirm the VM actually works.
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784 [09:36:14] <wikan> and something similar to changeing users where $HOME/projects gives different files ;) but I am looking for solution for the same user ;)
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788 [09:40:06] <terr__> wikan, I do not follow... and I likely won't be here for long
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794 [09:42:37] <wikan> i know ;)
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797 [09:43:03] <wikan> I have sent it to the public ;)
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801 [09:45:55] <wikan> damn I really need a solution for this mess on my disk
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809 [09:48:34] <ratrace> wikan: look up unshare(1)
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818 [09:50:55] <wikan> ratrace - good point
819 [09:51:05] <wikan> i forgot about it
820 [09:52:20] <wikan> but the question is how can I unshare two apps into same spaces
821 [09:52:26] <wikan> *space
822 [09:52:50] <wikan> this is main goal
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824 [09:52:53] <nlpqda> trying to run etcher on buster and keep getting ownership errors even though I switched twice between current user and system root
825 [09:52:56] <nlpqda> [17141:0228/095001.205347:FATAL:setuid_sandbox_host.cc(157)] The SUID sandbox helper binary was found, but is not configured correctly. Rather than run without sandboxing I'm aborting now. You need to make sure that /tmp/.mount_balenavSgRhj/chrome-sandbox is owned by root and has mode 4755.
826 [09:53:01] <nlpqda> /tmp/.mount_balenavSgRhj/balena-etcher-electron: line 10: 17141 Trace/breakpoint trap "${script_dir}"/balena-etcher-electron.bin "$@"
827 [09:53:10] <nlpqda> any ideas?
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832 [09:55:40] <ratrace> wikan: must be possible, or else containers would never work
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835 [09:57:03] <ratrace> wikan: also look up "Shared subtree operations" of the mount(8) manpage
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837 [09:58:25] <wikan> i think containers works via kernel api
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840 [09:59:24] <zatumil> do you want chroot?
841 [09:59:51] <ratrace> wikan: containers are just namespaces
842 [10:00:32] <wikan> yes, but connection to containers goes via api as I think
843 [10:01:07] <wikan> strace seems to tells that
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845 [10:01:23] <ratrace> wikan: I'd think it's literally the unshare(2) syscall
846 [10:01:24] <nlpqda> :/
847 [10:01:40] <wikan> and it is a problem :D
848 [10:01:52] <ratrace> at least looking at how systemd implemented process namespacing/containerization
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850 [10:01:57] <wikan> this mean there is root process required to share namespace
851 [10:02:40] <wikan> by saying "root process" i mean "first process that opened namespace - like /bin/bash"
852 [10:02:49] <ratrace> wikan: but what's your end goal here, I think I don't quite understand it. could be an xy problem too.
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854 [10:03:20] <ratrace> wikan: you can't have it otherwise, unless you bind mount betwee two separate namespaces
855 [10:03:36] <wikan> i want something like this....
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858 [10:04:23] <gwaii> hi I'm getting a certificate verification failed from replaced-url
859 [10:04:28] <wikan> command: "startjob project_x" makes namespace project_x and serves its own $HOME/projects directory
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861 [10:04:47] <wikan> vim (and another commands) $HOME/projects sees correct data
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863 [10:05:06] <wikan> but I wanna to work on multiple projects in the same time
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865 [10:05:49] <wikan> I always have a mess in projects directory because of concepts, tests, old not deleted projects, ofphaned dirs and files
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868 [10:06:35] <wikan> so I want to move that mess to $HOME/mess directory and server only that what I want into $HOME/projects directory :D
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872 [10:08:09] <wikan> well, $HOME/mess might be even an original $HOME/projects but by creating namespace it would be great to mount $HOME/projects/XXX into $HOME/projects - dunno just idea
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874 [10:09:01] <ratrace> wikan: bind-mounts
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878 [10:09:54] <wikan> are you sure it will work from different consoles?
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880 [10:10:21] <ratrace> they will work wherever thse mountpoints are accessible
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883 [10:10:48] <wikan> don;t get it
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886 [10:10:52] <ratrace> you can bind mount between namespaces, thus giving access for namespaced PIDs to such shared filesystems
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888 [10:11:25] <wikan> and the command is...?
889 [10:11:43] <wikan> bindfs I guess
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891 [10:12:04] <ratrace> wikan: let's say you have /path/to/one and /path/to/two each for the two namespaces. PIDs in the individual namespaces only see their own, like chroots. but you can bind mount /path/to/shared/mess into each, and pids in those namespaces will then have that shared mount
892 [10:12:09] <ratrace> wikan: bind -R or -B
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894 [10:12:15] <ratrace> wikan: eh... mount -R or -B
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898 [10:13:56] <ratrace> wikan: replaced-url
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900 [10:14:31] <wikan> i understand it
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902 [10:14:44] <wikan> but this means every app needs its own private mount
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904 [10:15:03] <plantroon> where do I add an extra authentication step for ssh to /etc/pam.d ? Is there an alternative to /etc/pam.d/login? Or anything really so that Debian doesn't ask me whether to overwrite this file during upgrade
905 [10:15:20] <wikan> /bin/bash mounts makes mount point for /bin/bash and it's subprocesses
906 [10:15:21] <ratrace> wikan: well the point of namespaces is to offer isolation
907 [10:15:32] <wikan> but another terminal is out of those information
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909 [10:16:20] <ratrace> wikan: not sure what you mean. mountpoints are not env vars available only for the shell they're defined in; they're global on the system and within the namespace they're created
910 [10:16:46] <wikan> ok, let me ask correctly
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913 [10:17:41] <wikan> terminal_one creates mount point $HOME/mess/project_x -> $HOME/projects
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916 [10:18:14] <wikan> terminal_two does ls on $HOME/projects and displays original $HOME/projects not $HOME/mess_projects_x
917 [10:18:26] <wikan> what I need to share namespace with terminal_two
918 [10:18:30] <wikan> ? ;)
919 [10:19:17] <ratrace> wikan: you're apparently not giving full information. are the two "terminals" inside the same filesystem namespace?
920 [10:19:36] <ratrace> like, say, two ssh connections to a host, both in the main/root namespace?
921 [10:19:51] <wikan> it is just xterm
922 [10:19:59] <wikan> new process of xterm - bare xterm
923 [10:20:10] <wikan> new window
924 [10:20:42] <ratrace> so they're inside the same namespace and thus "terminal two" will see whatever mountpoint "terminal one" created, assuming permissions are in order
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926 [10:21:09] <wikan> so it isn;t a solution :|
927 [10:21:35] <wikan> what if I need terminal_three to work on project_TWO ?
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929 [10:21:58] <ratrace> wikan: you're talking about two different things. first you asked about different namespaces seeing shared mounts, but two xterm "windows" are NOT different namespaces
930 [10:22:23] <wikan> 1/3: xterm_one -> $HOME/projects is $HOME/mess/one
931 [10:22:32] <wikan> 2/3: xterm_two -> $HOME/projects is $HOME/mess/one
932 [10:22:34] <ratrace> you would need to launch a terminal in its own separate namespace, to disconnect them. those can have shared bind mounts
933 [10:22:41] <wikan> 3/3: xterm_three -> $HOME/projects is $HOME/mess/xxxxxx
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936 [10:23:18] <jm__> systemd-nspawn?
937 [10:23:19] <ratrace> wikan: terminals are irrelevant here, you're talking about shells in chroots or in separate fs namespaces
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940 [10:24:00] <wikan> I just wanna to "magic knowledle" to share namespace with "current new shell"
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943 [10:24:49] <wikan> I wanna open new shell, and type command to tell which of existing namespaces I want to use in current shell
944 [10:24:59] <ratrace> wikan: you can't. if you isolate a shell in its own fs namespace, then you basically chroot and thus need to prepare the namespace as if it were a chroot. it needs the shell, libc, and many other libs and packages for basic operation.
945 [10:25:21] <ratrace> in other words... just use proper containers.
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947 [10:25:50] <wikan> containers needs its own configuration of everything I want to use - vim, etc
948 [10:25:54] <ratrace> yes
949 [10:25:59] <ratrace> that's the whole point of isolation
950 [10:26:17] <wikan> but...
951 [10:26:26] <wikan> ...what IF i use tmux?
952 [10:26:30] <ratrace> irrelevant
953 [10:26:52] <ratrace> the program you use to get a shell is irrelevant. you need a namespaced (chrooted) shell.
954 [10:26:57] <wikan> /bin/bash opens namespace and then tmux works as subprocess of /bin/bash :D
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956 [10:27:29] <ratrace> wikan: no. you want three different namespaces, inside which $HOME/project is a completely separate bind mount into a different part of the fs.
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959 [10:28:06] <wikan> no no
960 [10:28:09] <ratrace> to do that you need to run a shell essentially inside its own container, where $HOME/projects is mounted from outside
961 [10:28:26] <ratrace> wikan: well that's how you presented it earlier.
962 [10:28:29] <wikan> if I unshare and then I ran TMUX then I can use many panes so many apps in the new namespace
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964 [10:28:41] <ratrace> "< wikan> 3/3: xterm_three -> $HOME/projects is $HOME/mess/xxxxxx"
965 [10:29:04] <ratrace> so you want "three terms" (shells really) in which $HOME/projects is something else, no?
966 [10:29:19] <wikan> no
967 [10:29:26] <ratrace> then you presented it incorrectly before.
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970 [10:29:35] <wikan> I want some apps to see project_1 and some project_2 into projects
971 [10:29:39] <wikan> inside
972 [10:29:43] <ratrace> "< wikan> 1/3: xterm_one -> $HOME/projects is $HOME/mess/one"
973 [10:29:49] <wikan> exactly
974 [10:29:49] <ratrace> "< wikan> 2/3: xterm_two -> $HOME/projects is $HOME/mess/one"
975 [10:29:49] <jm__> that's what ratrace said above :)
976 [10:30:12] <ratrace> wikan: yes so that's what I said :) you want three namespaces inside which $HOME/projects exists but is different view of the filesystem on the host side.
977 [10:30:26] <wikan> i gave you example where two terms use the same directory as projects and third has different one
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979 [10:30:49] <ratrace> wikan: EXACTLY
980 [10:31:02] <wikan> so tmux solves my problem
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982 [10:31:10] <ratrace> wikan: you want different namespace inside which literally the same path, $HOME/projects , is a different mount
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985 [10:31:22] <wikan> yeap
986 [10:31:32] <ratrace> so you need a container
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988 [10:32:02] <ratrace> each shell must be in its own namespace (or at least two namespaces, since you want two views)
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990 [10:32:56] <wikan> you mean command "unshare && /bin/bash" looses unshared namespace?
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996 [10:34:13] <ratrace> I don't know how to explain this to you. if you want two shells, inside which "ls ~/projects" shows different stuff, those two shells must be run inside different namespaces
997 [10:34:33] <wikan> i know
998 [10:34:34] <Acid`Slayer> lol
999 [10:34:58] <ratrace> if you want to run a shell in a namespace, you need all the binaries and libraries and etc files and stuff, in support of the shell and anything else you want to run inside the ns
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1001 [10:35:22] <ratrace> in other words... you need two containers.
1002 [10:35:29] <wikan> no
1003 [10:35:32] <ratrace> yes
1004 [10:35:37] <wikan> namespace is not a FULL jail
1005 [10:35:45] <wikan> namespace can be only for network
1006 [10:35:49] <wikan> etc
1007 [10:35:57] <wikan> so i don't need seperated libs
1008 [10:36:06] <wikan> i don't need to make chroot
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1010 [10:36:11] <ratrace> yes but we are talking about filesystem namespace here where you want isolated ROOTS
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1012 [10:37:06] <wikan> ok, so what private bind of mounts is for?
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1014 [10:38:07] <wikan> i understand it this way: I mount projects as private mount point for current shell and use tmux as subprocess
1015 [10:38:24] <wikan> and in another shell i do the same and I have to different $HOME/projects
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1017 [10:38:51] <wikan> and as many apps able to see correct content as I want
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1021 [10:39:48] <wikan> i am doing test know
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1027 [10:41:09] <celphi> hello all. im trying to install 10.3 debian and my screen is all messed up after selecting graphical install
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1029 [10:41:11] <ratrace> but wait, the "many apps" is the whole problem here. private unshares are per process. if you want to run random apps in specific namespaces, that's what containeres are for, which is what I've been saying all the time. otherwise yes, for a single process, simple unshare might suffice
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1031 [10:41:16] <ratrace> wikan: ^^
1032 [10:41:40] <jm__> celphi: so don't use graphical mode?
1033 [10:42:01] <celphi> i tried regular install and i get same issue
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1041 [10:43:49] <celphi> any suggestions? it's a new computer
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1044 [10:44:14] <jm__> if non-graphical install has garbled screen then I have no idea what to do
1045 [10:44:19] <ratrace> celphi: maybe you need the firmware iso?
1046 [10:44:31] <ratrace> !firmware iso
1047 [10:44:31] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages are available from replaced-url
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1052 [10:45:28] <wikan> ratrace ai am testing solutions
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1060 [10:48:01] <celphi> woot figured it out
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1062 [10:48:19] <ratrace> celphi: so what was the problem?
1063 [10:48:30] <celphi> you have to select help
1064 [10:48:37] <celphi> then press f6
1065 [10:48:48] <celphi> then you get a prompt that says: boot
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1068 [10:49:26] <celphi> you then type `install vga=(i forget lol) fb=false`
1069 [10:49:43] <celphi> it offers solution in help
1070 [10:49:51] <jm__> didn't think that would help if text mode fails by itself
1071 [10:49:59] <celphi> i just typed to example and now my screen shows installer correctly
1072 [10:50:28] <wikan> why do I get "not a directory" error when I am trying to mount O.o?
1073 [10:50:30] <celphi> it forced my graphics into vga mode or something
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1215 [12:32:15] <Th3Mafia> Can someone tell me how to enable debug and logging on wpa_supplicant withouth having to run wpa_supplicant on the command line directly? I need it enabled at boot.
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1220 [12:36:18] <ratrace> Th3Mafia: how is it used if you're not running it directly? if it's run as the systemd service, you can alter the ExecStart line. You can use a drop-in with `systemctl edit`. if it's run from interfaces(5), iirc there's an option to specify flags (for -d). If it's NM, I have no idea.
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1224 [12:37:13] <ratrace> you can also use specific wpa_supplicant config file, for interfaces(5) and the systemd service template
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1379 [14:11:28] <erle-> rgr, I now set my whole system to German and now Gnome is also German
1380 [14:11:41] <erle-> this is not what I wanted, but at least it proves that no translation files are missing
1381 [14:12:42] <joepublic> you wanted just gnome in german, right?
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1424 [14:29:29] <erle-> joepublic: it is not per app, but per user
1425 [14:29:34] <erle-> I just wanted one user in German
1426 [14:29:46] <erle-> Root and Login Screen and different users in English
1427 [14:30:20] <erle-> I only wanted one user in German so I have appropriate paper format, currency etc.
1428 [14:31:42] <erle-> is not about gnome only, that German user can also have command line and Firefox in German
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1460 [14:50:09] <win_10> raspbian
1461 [14:50:41] <win_10> sounds like debian
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1464 [14:51:41] <wMw> it is debian :) for arm processors and rapsberrypi motherboards :)
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1466 [14:52:22] <win_10> ofcourse I have a Pi 3b
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1469 [14:53:29] <EdePopede> s/debian/based on debian/
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1536 [15:37:02] <PaddyF> !inittab
1537 [15:37:03] <dpkg> [inittab] /etc/inittab is where you configure the <init> program, to set up the basic startup routines. Do not play with it if you do not know what you are doing, or you will have a happy floppy rescue party!
1538 [15:37:21] <greycat> (not relevant under systemd)
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1540 [15:38:00] <PaddyF> yeah, i just wanted to ask how i pass the "--noclear" option to mingetty under systemd
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1544 [15:38:53] <greycat> replaced-url
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1547 [15:39:36] <PaddyF> how handy such wiki :)
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1568 [15:51:49] <pokota> so instead of downloading the testing netinst image, can I repoint the installer's apt to pull from testing?
1569 [15:51:57] <pokota> (setting up a vm)
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1575 [15:55:13] <countdr> xscreensaver to show some text.
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1592 [16:06:44] <jelly> pokota: theoretically yes but it's not guaranteed to work due to possible changes in eg. package sets for minimal installation
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1596 [16:07:08] <jelly> pokota: you could do a minimal install of stable, then do a release upgrade to bullseye
1597 [16:07:20] <jelly> then install everything else
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1599 [16:07:50] <pokota> that's probably the best route, then
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1602 [16:10:43] <jelly> it's the safest. Sometimes testing installer does not even work
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1612 [16:18:23] <tharkun> Good $DAY I need to run a local php script that has some functionality. apt-get install php will pull apache which will conflict with nginx. I know there is a way to install just the local needed parts. Can someone provide me with a google term? My English is not 100% sharp today.
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1615 [16:19:03] <greycat> if you're running it from a shell, or cron, or the like, you'll want the package php-cli
1616 [16:19:47] <tharkun> greycat: Thanks. It seems you are having a better day today :)
1617 [16:19:57] <greycat> if you intend to run it via nginx, you'll want the pacakge php-fpm, and you'll need to configure nginx to use it
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1619 [16:21:30] <tharkun> greycat: I am no fan of php but this local functionality is required at the moment. Eventually the dependency will disappear. nginx on this install does not require the use of php-fpm.
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1622 [16:22:14] <greycat> OK. php-cli gives you a "php" command that you can run from a shell, or whatever.
1623 [16:22:46] <greycat> err, actually a php7.3 command... not sure if a php symlink gets created as well
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1633 [16:28:15] <rain1> hey
1634 [16:28:33] <rain1> i want to install this thing called gns3, and i was following these instructions replaced-url
1635 [16:28:41] <rain1> but i got this error about libc versions
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1639 [16:29:19] <rain1> replaced-url
1640 [16:29:23] <rain1> what should I do?
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1643 [16:29:39] <greycat> ,v libc6
1644 [16:29:40] <judd> Package: libc6 on amd64 -- jessie: 2.19-18+deb8u10; jessie-security: 2.19-18+deb8u10; stretch-security: 2.24-11+deb9u1; stretch: 2.24-11+deb9u4; buster: 2.28-10; bullseye: 2.29-10; sid: 2.29-10; experimental: 2.30-0experimental2
1645 [16:30:04] <greycat> if it requires a post-buster version of libc6, you'll probably need a testing (bullseye) system to run it, or at least a chroot/container of some kind
1646 [16:30:30] <rain1> ok thanks
1647 [16:30:30] <greycat> the obvious alternatives would be to find a version of it that runs on buster, either a backport, or a version that you compile yourself
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1662 [16:36:03] <tharkun> greycat: FWIW php-cli is a dependency package that pull php7.3-cli or whatever flavour is the best accepted on the Debian version. Thanks again.
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1676 [16:40:41] <rockstorm> Hi anyone here uses todotxt-cli? I've aliased it to just 't' and I can't get the autocomplete feature to work. I keep getting "bash: completion: function `_todo' not found".
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1678 [16:41:19] <rockstorm> I've added the line "complete -F _todo t" to .bash_aliases as suggested in the docs
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1702 [16:52:00] <tete_> hi, i have a problem on one of my debian 10 servers. when i press "arrow up" to get to the latest command i entered and then press "end" or "pos 1", the cursor does not move
1703 [16:52:33] <tete_> also, i was used to use pg up on the keyboard to get the latest commands, this does not work anymore. i am not sure what i messed up, guess somehow any bash configuration
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1705 [16:52:38] <greycat> I don't know what a "pos 1" is, but it sounds like your terminal emulator's End key is not sending the bytes that bash expects.
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1708 [16:52:59] <tete_> its "pos 1" on a german keyboard, it means "position 1", like "go to the beginning"
1709 [16:53:08] <greycat> Either use Ctrl-E, or figure out what your End key is sending, and add a binding for that.
1710 [16:53:16] <greycat> Ah, you mean Home. :)
1711 [16:53:23] <tete_> ah yes, could be home
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1714 [16:54:53] <greycat> E.g. for me, in screen inside urxvt, End sends ESC [ 4 ~ and bash has this binding:
1715 [16:54:56] <greycat> "\e[4~": end-of-line
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1719 [16:55:34] <greycat> every terminal is different, so you may have to figure out what yours is sending
1720 [16:55:44] <greycat> usually pressing Ctrl-V End will suffice
1721 [16:56:04] <tete_> greycat, i need to first figure out what actually is messed up before i configure it again because it was working. and then i changed *something*. but this is easily 3-6 months ago
1722 [16:56:20] <tete_> its a normal ssh connection
1723 [16:56:23] <tete_> with putty
1724 [16:56:35] <greycat> what does Ctrl-V End show?
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1726 [16:56:45] <tete_> nothing
1727 [16:56:49] <greycat> O_o
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1729 [16:56:53] <greycat> that's... problematic
1730 [16:57:20] <greycat> The issue might be on the client side, then. Maybe putty has some configuration thingy for deciding what Home and End should do.
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1732 [16:57:41] <tete_> hm, maybe yes, i guess i updated putty in that time because of some kind of critical bug ...
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1734 [16:59:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1563
1735 [16:59:07] <tete_> when i hit "pg up" (guess thats on the english keyboard) then i get: ^[[5~
1736 [16:59:19] <greycat> that sounds good
1737 [16:59:29] <tete_> and pg down just prints "~"
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1739 [16:59:40] <greycat> less good
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1741 [17:00:30] <tete_> i will try to get on a linux machine later and connect to that debian server and see if it behaves the same
1742 [17:00:49] <greycat> google sends me to replaced-url
1743 [17:01:05] <greycat> it's a 10 year old question, though, so who knows...
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1745 [17:01:31] <tete_> oh yeah i have that xterm string in putty
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1748 [17:02:07] <countdr> tete_ You can delete the putty registry
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1751 [17:02:49] <tete_> still the same behaviour when i enter "linux" instead of "xterm"
1752 [17:03:11] <greycat> what about "putty"?
1753 [17:03:15] *** Quits: grobi1 (~rtng@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1754 [17:04:10] <tete_> whats wierd is that when i login as user "oli" i get no output at all, but with root i get some output, e.g. the "~"
1755 [17:04:17] <tete_> just connected with "putty", same behaviour
1756 [17:04:30] <countdr> What's your password?
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1758 [17:04:40] <tete_> ;)
1759 [17:04:51] <tete_> a long one
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1762 [17:05:22] <greycat> Putty will actually send a specific set of bytes when the key is pressed, and those bytes need to match what the programs on the host *expect* them to be. The expectation is created by the value of the TERM variable that putty also sends to the host.
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1765 [17:05:54] <tete_> greycat, i believe its not a problem with putty but with the server. because it behaves differently depending on the user
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1767 [17:06:14] <greycat> If the user's files are overriding TERM, that would certainly break things.
1768 [17:06:44] *** Joins: xcm (~xcm@replaced-ip )
1769 [17:07:29] <tete_> where can i find the default .bashrc for the users? i could try to override my login users one
1770 [17:07:39] <duude__> Hey people.
1771 [17:07:45] <duude__> How do I start contributing to Debian?
1772 [17:07:49] <greycat> the default one is in /etc/skel/
1773 [17:07:50] <countdr> /etc/skel
1774 [17:07:59] <tete_> it could be that thats the cause, i first login as xyz, maybe that overwrites the TERM variable
1775 [17:08:02] <countdr> duude__: Risk
1776 [17:08:03] <duude__> I've been using the distro for a year and some months now, I just finished LFS project and I feel like I know enough
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1778 [17:08:17] <duude__> risc-v? countdr
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1780 [17:08:30] <greycat> One of the ways to contribute is to run the "testing" branch and file bug reports when you find problems.
1781 [17:08:34] <duude__> i only know how x64_x86 works solidly
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1784 [17:09:15] <duude__> greycat: oh I thought about something bigger, something so that I can put under my resume "projects: active contribution towards maintaining the debian project"
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1786 [17:09:30] <countdr> Honest
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1789 [17:11:05] <tete_> when i am in an editor (like vim), the keys work. so i am now very sure its some kind of .profile/.bashrc etc. problem
1790 [17:11:27] <tete_> i will overwrite the 3 files in my home dirs from those of /etc/skel
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1792 [17:11:34] <tete_> and then see if its working again, thanks
1793 [17:11:36] <greycat> ~/.inputrc also matters, then
1794 [17:12:11] <tete_> i have no .inputrc
1795 [17:12:22] <greycat> that reduces the number of variables, then :)
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1798 [17:13:28] <dob1> I am trying to execute a command via ssh but passing parameters to this command, I am using in a script, ssh user@host command "$@" and this seems to work. what is strange is that 'command "$@"' doesn't work
1799 [17:13:59] <dob1> the command get executed but it ignores the parameters
1800 [17:14:00] <greycat> dob1: replaced-url
1801 [17:14:25] <JyZyXEL> aren't the boot time fsck logs saved anywhere?
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1804 [17:15:36] <greycat> JyZyXEL: there's some output in journalctl
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1806 [17:15:41] <JyZyXEL> i just saw it fix hundreds of errors and then clear the screen so i didn't have time to read what it actually found
1807 [17:15:49] <countdr> JyZyXEL: I suggest a live boot. fsck from live boot
1808 [17:15:52] <PaddyF> greycat: the wiki entry you posted to me earlier is excellent!
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1810 [17:16:12] <JyZyXEL> countdr: no i mean the default debian fsck that is triggered automatically during boot
1811 [17:16:12] <greycat> "speaking of cleared screens" ...
1812 [17:16:29] <greycat> JyZyXEL: it *should* be visible in journalctl
1813 [17:16:32] <JyZyXEL> journalctl contains none of the fsck execution
1814 [17:16:44] <greycat> Really? Mine does.
1815 [17:16:48] <countdr> JyZyXEL: Ctrl Alt F1
1816 [17:16:52] <greycat> Apr 30 09:36:03 wooledg systemd-fsck[386]: /dev/sda3: clean, 343/183264 files, 47966/732416 blocks
1817 [17:17:11] <JyZyXEL> greycat: probably happened in initramfs
1818 [17:17:12] <greycat> oh, I guess that one's a bit aged
1819 [17:17:25] <JyZyXEL> countdr: that's already been cleared by the startup
1820 [17:17:26] <greycat> Feb 10 08:49:24 wooledg systemd[1]: systemd-fsckd.service: Succeeded.
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1823 [17:17:48] <greycat> Feb 10 08:48:54 wooledg systemd-fsck[378]: /dev/sda3: clean, 343/183264 files, 5
1824 [17:17:48] <greycat> 0884/732416 blocks
1825 [17:17:53] <JyZyXEL> i don't have any of that
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1827 [17:18:47] <JyZyXEL> no mention of systemd-fsck in /var/log/*
1828 [17:19:07] <JyZyXEL> it looked like the fsck was triggered while processing initrd
1829 [17:19:11] <greycat> I literally ran "journalctl" which gives you output in a pager, and then "/fsck" to search for fsck in said output.
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1831 [17:19:25] <JyZyXEL> greycat: yeah i don't have any of that
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1836 [17:21:42] <JyZyXEL> this is probably because my backing devices are defined in /etc/crypttab with "luks,initramfs", so all the FS initialization ends up happening before systemd?
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1840 [17:21:54] <greycat> Oh, crypto nonsense... no idea, then.,
1841 [17:22:26] <greycat> replaced-url
1842 [17:22:48] <greycat> Not sure that'll be sufficient, if there's another clear imposed by the crypto stuff. About which I know nothing.
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1847 [17:23:42] <dob1> greycat, on Automatic requoting of each parameter these are all valid solutions?
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1931 [18:03:34] <annadane> what are foo@default.service things?
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1933 [18:04:11] <greycat> see "SERVICE TEMPLATES" in systemd.service(5)
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1937 [18:06:33] <tharkun> tls fubar fixed. Next isue with this new install is machine not shutting down. Possible causes crappy acpi support from dell. Some difference between the acpi daemon on Debian 9 and 10 or some missing kernel option I forgot to add. Essentially default options having changed. Anyone for the ride? :D
1938 [18:07:24] * tharkun sees greycat slowly walking to the door meowing himself out. :)
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1953 [18:21:36] <tripkin> tharkun: if it is not shutting down, what is it doing? Sleeping/hibernating, or continuing to run as if it did not care?
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1955 [18:23:23] <tharkun> Reached target Shutdown. Reached target Final Step. Stared Power-Off. Reached target Power-Off. and the lap keeps running.
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1958 [18:24:34] <tripkin> Ah. I work with a number of dell laptops and have not had that situation
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1961 [18:25:08] <dacencora> Hey guys, for whatever reason I cannot get wifi working
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1963 [18:25:40] <tharkun> tripkin: Precision M2400 not the newest of models. Gets the job done.
1964 [18:25:49] <tripkin> I remember years ago seeing that kind of thing when I would issue a shutdown command without adding halt, or something like that, where it would do that
1965 [18:26:03] <dacencora> I have the nonfree cinnamon installed from the ISO, but wifi does not work. It is an Intel AC 9560, and I do have the firmware-iwlwifi driver installed
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1967 [18:26:06] <tripkin> tharkun: I am using older hardware than that
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1969 [18:26:45] <karlpinc> dacencora: When you installed did you use the unoffical installer with non-free firmware? (Maybe you need firmware??)
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1971 [18:27:04] <tharkun> tripkin: shudown without halt ?? do you have a oneliner available, I've never done it.
1972 [18:27:18] <dacencora> I have the firmware-iwlwifi installed
1973 [18:27:26] <dacencora> karlpinc: Unoffical installer?
1974 [18:27:27] <karlpinc> dacencora: (Although the intel hardware often has free firmware.)
1975 [18:27:34] <karlpinc> !firmware images
1976 [18:27:34] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages are available from replaced-url
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1978 [18:28:13] <karlpinc> dacencora: grep for "firmware" in your boot logs (or maybe dmesg?) to see if the kernel is looking for firmware and can't find it.
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1982 [18:28:57] * tharkun wonders about the *correct* firmware. Made this mistake on Monday.
1983 [18:29:06] <tripkin> tharkun: shutdown --halt shuts down all the processes but leaves the system powered on, shutdown --poweroff shuts it all down and powers off the machine
1984 [18:29:11] <dacencora> It loaded the firmware
1985 [18:29:22] <karlpinc> dacencora: (or ask the judd bot: /msg judd pciid xxxxxx You get your pciid for your device from lspci -nnn )
1986 [18:29:26] <dacencora> tharkun: the correct firmware? Isn't it all just iwlwifi
1987 [18:29:36] <tharkun> tripkin: trying it now.
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1989 [18:30:16] <karlpinc> dacencora: Maybe. But possibly not. There's some free firmware that "works", but does not "do everything". So then you need to go to the non-free. (As I said, not usually with intel.)
1990 [18:30:30] <dacencora> I have the nonfree firmware for iwlwifi
1991 [18:30:36] <tharkun> dacencora: firmware is hw dependent so you tell me. Who says the fw you need is in that file.
1992 [18:30:50] <tharkun> Broadcom firmware is defenetly not on that file.
1993 [18:30:54] <karlpinc> dacencora: Get the pciid and let's ask the bot.
1994 [18:30:56] <karlpinc> !pciid
1995 [18:30:56] <dpkg> The PCI ID helps us work out how to support your PCI hardware. It looks like [abcd:1234] in the output of "lspci -nn". Ask the bot "judd" to match the PCI ID of the device, e.g. "/msg judd pciid 8086:284b". Some hardware uses alternate means of detection: beware of some false positives+negatives. See also <judd-hardware>, <local pciid>. To find out what currently installed kernel modules your hardware is using, run "lspci -k".
1996 [18:31:29] <dacencora> I sent the message
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1999 [18:32:12] <dacencora> I haven't gotten anything back. My intel card is just the wireless ac-9560
2000 [18:32:19] <karlpinc> dacencora: And the pciid?
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2002 [18:32:33] <dacencora> 8086:a36d
2003 [18:32:41] <karlpinc> ,pciid 8086:a36d
2004 [18:32:42] <judd> [8086:a36d] is 'Cannon Lake PCH USB 3.1 xHCI Host Controller' from 'Intel Corporation' with kernel modules 'snd-hda-intel', 'ata-generic' in stretch. See also replaced-url
2005 [18:32:58] <dacencora> Oops
2006 [18:33:00] <dacencora> Wrong one
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2008 [18:33:11] <dacencora> 8086:a370
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2010 [18:33:49] <tripkin> ,pciid 8086:a370
2011 [18:33:50] <judd> [8086:a370] is 'Wireless-AC 9560 [Jefferson Peak]' from 'Intel Corporation' with kernel modules 'iwlwifi', 'snd-hda-intel', 'ata-generic' in stretch. See also replaced-url
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2013 [18:34:28] <tharkun> dacencora: shutdow --poweroff isued the same path. Meaning ended up with the same messages.
2014 [18:35:17] <karlpinc> dacencora: lsmod shows the iwlwifi module loaded?
2015 [18:35:18] <tharkun> tripkin: I meant it for you ^^
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2017 [18:35:47] <tripkin> tharkun: there must be something not configured right - maybe in the bios? Do you have the latest bios firmware installed?
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2020 [18:36:05] <dacencora> OK so now that we have the correct modules, what now? This is crazy. It works on every other distro. And yes it shows up in lsmod
2021 [18:36:12] <dacencora> But so does iwlmvm
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2024 [18:36:49] <tharkun> tripkin: The bios battery died a few years back. And I had to change the hdd so I am certain the update got lost. But that is not a problem since it works fine on Debian 9
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2030 [18:38:45] <tripkin> ok. I am not sure what the problem is, then. I am still running stretch on the laptops. I can do a dist upgrade to buster and try it out on one of them. I can let you know what happens after that. I presume that you normally run the shutdown from the gui?
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2033 [18:39:40] <tharkun> xfce to be precise.
2034 [18:39:54] <annadane> high five.
2035 [18:40:00] <annadane> the only real desktop
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2037 [18:40:24] <tharkun> annadane: My other option is tty which is my prefered one.
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2039 [18:40:57] <tharkun> But the kids need to surf the web and firefox will not run on tty such a spoiler ;P
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2041 [18:42:11] <tripkin> Cool. It really shouldn't matter which DE you are running, though. At least as far as using it's shutdown tool goes. I presume that they all simply call the same shutdown control, but then...
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2043 [18:43:18] <somiaj> that is presuming a lot (Though with systemd it might be more uniform)
2044 [18:43:35] <somiaj> but each DE kinda did it their own way, gnome use to call gdm3 to do the actual work (Since he was running as root)
2045 [18:44:08] <somiaj> have you fully updated the firmware on your machine? That might help if it is really an acpi issue
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2050 [18:46:00] <tripkin> Yeah, I have found that to be the case as well for various machines. Even if it has not been updated for a while from the manufacturer, the latest bios has fixed a few things for me in the past.
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2053 [18:47:54] <jhutchins_wk> tripkin: Early in the century I was deploying a lot of thinkpads. First thing to do was always update the BIOS, because by the time new models reached the end of the distribution chain they'd updated it.
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2056 [18:50:00] <tripkin> That holds true for most manufacturers. You never know how long that machine has been sitting on a shelf, or what was found and fixed between manufacture and purchase.
2057 [18:50:06] <tharkun> Guilty as charged. I do not know how to do that on Linux IIRC I did it on Windows long time ago.
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2059 [18:51:06] <tripkin> But even over the years, they implement changes, and when I run into problems, I usually end up finding that a more recent firmware was released that will magically fix the problem. Even completely seemingly unrelated ones. Like magic!!
2060 [18:52:44] <tripkin> tharkun: If you can prep a dos booting usb stick (or some other device) that has the firmware on it, then you can run the updater. For the Dells, that is usually the requirement (unless you are running windows, of course)
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2062 [18:53:25] <tripkin> Dell's site will tell you what you need when you go to dl the firmware
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2065 [18:54:15] <tharkun> tripkin: I know for certain that I have the A06 version and it seems the lates one is A28. I guess I neglected that part of the system.
2066 [18:54:32] <tripkin> That happens!
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2070 [18:55:36] <jhutchins_wk> If it aint broke...
2071 [18:55:39] <tharkun> Thanks everyone for the advice, time and most of all patience. I got to go now but as Schwarneger said: I'll be back! (With a strong Austrian accent)
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2075 [18:56:40] <tripkin> You're welcome!
2076 [18:57:12] <tripkin> And yes, jhutchins_wk, that is generally good advice.
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2079 [18:58:09] <alpha-carinae> hello, what's the status of nvidia prime offloading support in debian?
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2081 [18:59:01] <somiaj> replaced-url
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2083 [18:59:17] <somiaj> overall optimus (prime) support is fairly poor in linux, but there are some ways to get some features working
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2085 [18:59:54] <alpha-carinae> i mean i read on the nvidia's page that it requires patches to xorg
2086 [19:00:53] <alpha-carinae> so far, i tried it on fedora with rpmfusion repos
2087 [19:01:08] <somiaj> debian usually lags in stuff like that
2088 [19:01:18] <alpha-carinae> oh i see
2089 [19:01:43] <somiaj> often times ubuntu is a bit better (since the corp behind it puts money into such things)
2090 [19:02:16] <alpha-carinae> yes, from what i've read ubuntu must already have the patches now
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2097 [19:06:28] <PaddyF> !hardware
2098 [19:06:28] <dpkg> Before buying any hardware, make sure it is supported by all operating systems you want to use; ask me about <hcl>. To acquire details about your current hardware, ask me about <whats my hardware>. Please ask all non-Debian-specific hardware questions in ##hardware on irc.freenode.net.
2099 [19:06:28] <Gigglebyte> Would someone know how to change the default web browser in Thunderbird, or for XFCE? Volunteers in #Thunderbird tried, but I couldn't find the screen they eluded to, and there has been no response from #xfce, not #chat.
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2105 [19:09:20] <nlpqda> How to burn .dmg Catalina image to usb drive while under Debian/Linux?
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2116 [19:13:20] <PaddyF> nlpqda: i have never tried this but you could convert the file with dmg2img and then use "dd" to write the resulting file
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2119 [19:13:54] <Highd> hello, I just finished my first base install of Buster without any tasksel selected
2120 [19:14:08] <Highd> our firewall alerted the VM trying to reach out to 165.159.200.1
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2123 [19:14:42] <PaddyF> Highd: maybe NTP
2124 [19:14:50] <PaddyF> have you checked further?
2125 [19:15:04] <Highd> yes, I found out that the base install is reaching out out to an NTP server
2126 [19:15:13] <Highd> the port is 123... udp
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2138 [19:16:21] <PaddyF> at some point the installer asks "want to set time via ntp"
2139 [19:17:01] <Highd> crap, I missed that... let me rerun the install before I snapshot the image as a template
2140 [19:17:02] <Highd> thanks
2141 [19:17:07] <nlpqda> PaddyF: I've tried that before, the usb was not bootable even though the original dmg file is bootable.
2142 [19:17:34] <nlpqda> has anyone here ever been able to install Etcher on Buster?
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2144 [19:17:55] <nlpqda> Etcher replaced-url
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2149 [19:19:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1548
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2156 [19:20:43] <PaddyF> the problem with the booting also affects the win10.iso from microsoft, hmmm
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2160 [19:21:55] <PaddyF> !hybrid
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2163 [19:22:58] <nlpqda> PaddyF: ms IOSs aren't hybrid unlike most LINUXs and MACs
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2165 [19:23:14] <PaddyF> that could be it
2166 [19:23:43] <nlpqda> I found about this commnd sudo mount -t hfsplus -o force,rw /dev/sdXY /media/mntpoint and I'm wondering how to use it to mount dmg to /mnt
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2168 [19:24:19] <nlpqda> it keeps throwing this eror "mount: /mnt: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/loop4, missing codepage or helper program, or other error."
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2170 [19:24:35] <PaddyF> you need a loopback device for mounting
2171 [19:26:01] <nlpqda> how to modify/apply that on this command sudo mount -t hfsplus -o force,rw macOS_Catalina.dmg /mnt
2172 [19:26:02] <SGrover> Looking for ideas. Nginx service is not starting on boot. I can start it manually without issue. So I created a bash script that tries to start the service for 10 minutes and scheduled it with cron @reboot. It fails to start the service, but I can still start it manually.
2173 [19:26:29] <PaddyF> mount -o loopback,force,rw -t hfsplus ...
2174 [19:26:35] <SGrover> There seems to be something off with the boot environment that prevents nginx from starting. Any suggestions where to look?
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2178 [19:27:52] <nlpqda> didn't work, threw this error "mount: /mnt: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/loop4, missing codepage or helper program, or other error."
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2180 [19:28:03] <PaddyF> SGrover: /var/log/nginx
2181 [19:28:08] *** Quits: asymptotically (~asymptoti@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2182 [19:28:10] *** Quits: grobi (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2183 [19:28:16] <PaddyF> nlpqda: too bad
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2186 [19:28:39] <SGrover> PaddyF, nothing helpful in there. service nginx status gives me something about a timeout on the command that starts nginx.
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2188 [19:29:49] <SGrover> nginx.service: Start-pre operation timed out. Terminating. - and the command (via systemctl) is ExecStartPre=/usr/sbin/nginx -t -q -g daemon on; master_process on;
2189 [19:29:51] <PaddyF> SGrover: is a filesystem used that is not available at boot time?
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2192 [19:31:27] <SGrover> PaddyF, hmm.. that shouldn't be the case, but we are running debian in a VM on a Scale system. The Scale system seems to be more Windows oriented...
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2194 [19:32:30] * PaddyF passes the stake over to the more skilled helpers
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2196 [19:32:49] <SGrover> I don't think that filesystem is the issue though. My script logic is basically : 1. check if nginx is running, if so, exit. If not, report it to standard out, sleep 10 seconds, then try again. (inside a loop to only run for 10 minutes)
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2198 [19:33:38] <SGrover> That script runs it's full 10 minutes reporting that nginx is not started yet. I can tail -f the output.log while it is running, but I can also just start the nginx service manuually at that point.
2199 [19:34:10] <SGrover> So I'm not understanding why the script fails on reboot. But if I run the script manually it starts the service.
2200 [19:34:34] <ratrace> SGrover: what script is that exactly?
2201 [19:35:36] <SGrover> a custom bash script. replaced-url
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2203 [19:36:11] <SGrover> This script is for diagnostics and to try to ensure my services are running after a reboot.
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2206 [19:36:47] <Highd> I just finished the reinstall, tasksel "basic system utils" only... Buster guided install does not ask about the ntp
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2209 [19:38:16] <SGrover> ratrace, I built this script because nginx does not restart on reboot. I though it was an issue with the VM environment. The behavior revealed by this script suggest it is something else. I think.
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2212 [19:39:23] <jhutchins_wk> SGrover: Is it properly enabled in systemd?
2213 [19:39:49] <SGrover> yep. I can do systemctl start nginx.
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2217 [19:40:43] <Highd> From the install log:
2218 [19:40:43] <SGrover> (note that I'm not overly competent with systemd yet - I'm used to the old /etc/init.d commands)
2219 [19:40:55] <Highd> Menu Item 'clock-setup' selected
2220 [19:41:07] <jhutchins_wk> SGrover: That doesn't mean it's enabled at boot.
2221 [19:41:08] <Highd> clock-setup: rdate called using ntp server x.y.z
2222 [19:41:16] <Highd> clock-setup: rdate adjust local clock by xxx
2223 [19:41:41] <SGrover> jhutchins_wk, hmm.. true. But I do see logs of it trying to start, just timing out...
2224 [19:41:49] <jhutchins_wk> SGrover: What status does it show?
2225 [19:42:03] <jhutchins_wk> Is it perhaps not waiting for Networking?
2226 [19:42:40] <Highd> no questions asked... who is responsible for defaults for the installer?
2227 [19:42:46] <SGrover> jhutchins_wk, replaced-url
2228 [19:43:51] <SGrover> As for not waiting for networking, that's what I thought too. But my script should be running after everything is set up... That's why I did the 10 minute loop and reporting state while trying to start the service.
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2230 [19:44:56] <jhutchins_wk> SGrover: Is nginx writing anything to it's log?
2231 [19:47:13] <SGrover> I'm not seeing anything in /var/log/nginx/error.log. None of the other log files there seem relevant (access.log, and my vhost logs)
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2235 [19:49:27] <Highd> since the debian installer is not a actual system package who should I contact about this?
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2237 [19:49:54] <SGrover> I'm not seeing anything in /var/log/syslog either other than timeouts to *debian.pool.ntp.org or rsyslog connection issues (which would be my own configuration problems)
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2239 [19:52:28] <greycat> Highd: man timesyncd.conf
2240 [19:52:48] <greycat> (that's what gets used by default if you don't install ntp or chrony or openntpd)
2241 [19:53:22] <Highd> greycat: since buster?
2242 [19:53:39] <greycat> Damned if I know. I always install ntp.
2243 [19:53:53] <Highd> yep, me 2
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2245 [19:54:13] <openbsdtai123> I use raspbian on pi, man, it takes eternity. I guess that since we have buster it is now mega slow os
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2247 [19:54:38] <greycat> anyway, /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf should make things pretty clear, and the man page points you there...
2248 [19:55:06] <Highd> grey: I have found it... quite simple and straightfw
2249 [19:55:31] <greycat> I have one jessie box available... it has #Servers=0.debian.pool.ntp.org 1.debian.pool.ntp.org 2.debian.pool.ntp.org 3.debian.pool.ntp.org
2250 [19:56:03] <greycat> cf. the buster boxes that have similar entries under FallbackNTP=
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2252 [19:56:42] <ratrace> SGrover: is your nginx config binding to any explicit IP addresses?
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2255 [19:57:52] <Highd> this buster vm also has the FallbackNTP field # out
2256 [19:58:30] <greycat> yes, that's the compiled-in default in buster
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2258 [19:58:57] <greycat> I only pointed out the jessie ones to indicate that this may have been the default as far back as jessie, which is when debian adopted systemd as default init.
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2261 [20:00:18] <SGrover> ratrace, I don't think so. I've done a grep "listen" on the conf files. I only see listens for ports (or commented out lines to localhost:110 and port 143)
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2264 [20:01:21] <ratrace> SGrover: hmm. still, try rescheduling nginx to After=network-online.target, I have a suspicion it's erroring out on inability to bind a socket
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2268 [20:03:16] <SGrover> my /lib/systemd/system/nginx.service file has After=network.target nss-lookup.target under the [Unit] section.. I'm into my weak areas with SystemD now - is this the right place to change that value to network-online.target ?
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2270 [20:03:59] <karlpinc> SGrover: No. You want to change it in /etc/systemd/system/... There's a man page....
2271 [20:04:04] <greycat> Is your issue "nginx starts before the network is up"? If so, the fix is to use "auto " instead of "allow-hotplug " in /etc/network/interfaces for your important ethernet interfaces.
2272 [20:04:32] <greycat> allow-hotplug is an idiotic default brought to you by the people who wanted to make Debian "friendly" for laptops and tablets and shit
2273 [20:04:39] <karlpinc> greycat: I'm very curious.
2274 [20:04:57] <greycat> After=network.target only applies to interfaces that are marked "auto"
2275 [20:05:13] * karlpinc wonders how that is made to work....
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2277 [20:05:15] <SGrover> greycat, interesting. We do have "allow-hotplug ens3" there...
2278 [20:05:16] <greycat> It is extremely difficult to find documentation on this, so I have to keep pointing it out every time.
2279 [20:06:07] <openbsdtai123> hi guys, ... if you are stuck with installing or using devian.... just use this auto config/usage util:
2280 [20:06:23] <openbsdtai123> auto simplifying tool : replaced-url
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2282 [20:06:26] <openbsdtai123> thank me ;)
2283 [20:06:39] <karlpinc> SGrover: Somewhere around paragraph 7 of the DESCRIPTION section of "man systemd.unit".
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2285 [20:06:48] <ratrace> greycat: oh! now that might explain the issues I had with bind9 failing to get DNSSEC keys on boot due to something something network so I "fixed" it by injecting a "wait for ping response" service as its dep.....
2286 [20:07:03] <greycat> For me, the first thing to bite was NFS.
2287 [20:07:27] <openbsdtai123> there is nfs into replaced-url
2288 [20:08:05] <karlpinc> SGrover: If you want to do "systemd stuff" that part of the systemd man pages are invaulable.
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2290 [20:08:24] <greycat> you're trying to point them to the "drop-in directory" section?
2291 [20:08:30] <SGrover> karlpinc, thanks. I've been googling the topic for the past day or so.
2292 [20:08:51] <ratrace> `systemctl edit <service>` ftw
2293 [20:08:56] <karlpinc> greycat: And the directory where you make symlinks to wanted stuff -- both.
2294 [20:09:22] <greycat> ratrace: that makes a copy of the entire thing, which is not typically what you want
2295 [20:09:24] <SGrover> greycat, thanks for the tip. Made the change to /etc/network/interfaces and am rebooting. This VM environment takes 5 - 10 minutes for my box to come back up and accept SSH connections though...
2296 [20:09:30] <karlpinc> ratrace: Yes, because there's no way we're going to want to actually know what files do what in our filesystem. :-P
2297 [20:09:32] <greycat> the drop-in directory is *briefly* discussed at replaced-url
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2299 [20:10:05] <CaptainBlackton> Hi everyone! Does anyone know the process for adding software to the main Debian repository? I heard you might need to either become an official Debian developer, or else know someone who is? Also, does the code have to be open source?
2300 [20:10:21] <Highd> SGrover: it's a breeze of a read, take a peak
2301 [20:10:24] <Highd> replaced-url
2302 [20:10:35] <ratrace> karlpinc: it's a lead to read up what it does ;)
2303 [20:11:04] <greycat> !auto
2304 [20:11:04] <dpkg> Interfaces marked "auto" are waited for by things that wait for the network to be up (like systemd's network-online.target). "allow-hotplug" means the interface is removable or not always needed, so network-online won't wait for it.
2305 [20:11:35] <ratrace> for systemd it's best to read the manpages available on the distro, because new versions will include many new features and the docs on HEAD might not be fully applicable to Debian
2306 [20:12:20] <karlpinc> !tell CaptainBlackton about wnpp
2307 [20:12:23] <SGrover> Highd, I'm assuming that was sarcasm? :) As a newbie to SystemD, I need a "here's how to get started" guide, rather than the "here's the reference material".. but I'm hoping the networking fix addresses this and I don't need to wade into it at that level..
2308 [20:12:37] <karlpinc> CaptainBlackton: Otherwise, see the docs at debian.org regards becoming a dev.
2309 [20:13:19] <karlpinc> CaptainBlackton: No, the program does not have to be FOSS. But if it is not then it goes in the non-free section.
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2312 [20:14:16] <Highd> SGrover: we are all in this together... your pain is my pain, tomorrow is another day, another install, another ticket, another surprise
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2314 [20:15:49] <SGrover> Well, my server came back up and I could ssh to it. That's a good sign. Nginx still is not started though and my diagnostics script still can't start the service. Manually starting my diagnostic script starts the service as expected.
2315 [20:16:03] <ratrace> Highd: you mean "both"; don't include me, I don't feel pain with systemd :)
2316 [20:16:06] <SGrover> so, it looks like I'll have to alter the nginx.service configuration
2317 [20:16:42] <ratrace> SGrover: you can either use "drop-ins" or simply copy /lib/systemd/system/nginx.service into /etc/systemd/system/ and alter it
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2319 [20:17:34] <ratrace> SGrover: with drop-ins you can override individual options, while full service file in /etc is a complete replacement of the package-provided one
2320 [20:17:43] <Highd> ratrace: no, I bet a bunch of people solve their problems once and dont look back... seldom they work supporting customers, migrations and new deployments
2321 [20:18:11] <Highd> they have their laptops all tweaked up and lubbed... booting in 3 seconds, good on ya
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2323 [20:20:19] <Highd> ratrace: perhaps you care to explain why tasksel and systemd post-install wont ask about timesyncd being selected by default and reaching out to back to the internet on my uat vlan even with #FallbackNTP commented out
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2325 [20:20:54] <greycat> The comments are showing you the compile-time DEFAULTS, as the file says.
2326 [20:21:04] <greycat> # Entries in this file show the compile time defaults.
2327 [20:21:28] <Highd> :O
2328 [20:21:35] <tsarompy> lol
2329 [20:21:37] <tsarompy> replaced-url
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2331 [20:21:43] <ratrace> Highd: what greycat said. there exist upstream defaults (google), then distro compile-time defaults, then configs.
2332 [20:23:06] <ratrace> Highd: as to your question, you'd have to ask the maintainer to provide a dpkg-reconfigure menu for users to input NTP upstreams
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2336 [20:24:34] <Highd> ratrace: excellent, so is this a feature request or a bug? also do I ask tasksel do deal with 'clock-setup' on the installer AND systemd for the post-install?
2337 [20:24:52] <ratrace> Highd: wishlist probably
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2340 [20:25:18] <ratrace> though don't hold your breath . the default is sane, and you can always change the config
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2343 [20:26:33] <Highd> im personally love the default... would not change 0.debian.pool.ntp.org for anything in the world! lol
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2345 [20:27:11] <Highd> I am mostly concerned with systemd-timesyncd thinking it can reach out to the internet without permission after a clean base install
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2347 [20:27:44] <Highd> as ntp does not appear to have been considered....
2348 [20:28:18] <greycat> "not considered"? they patched it to use debian pool names.
2349 [20:28:20] <ratrace> Highd: for general use distro and 99.9% of people, that's a sane default. if your security context is that sensitive, make sure you install with no network access possible until you've raised all the firewalls and other measures
2350 [20:28:20] <Highd> I really want to find the discussion to calm my nerves about a very weird precendent
2351 [20:28:45] <greycat> ratrace: or disable the service before booting, probably in your FAI thing
2352 [20:28:49] <SGrover> Well that didn't work. Copied /lib/systemd/system/nginx.service to /etc/systemd/system/nginx.service. Altered the After statement to be After=network-online.target nss-lookup.target. Rebooted. Nginx is still not coming up on reboot.
2353 [20:28:54] <ratrace> greycat: yes, or that.
2354 [20:29:09] <ratrace> I also seem to recall ntpd never asking for permission before systemd-timesyncd was a thing....
2355 [20:29:26] <SGrover> service nginx status still indicates a timeout.
2356 [20:29:32] <greycat> SGrover: you'll need to figure out *why* it's not starting... hopefully you can find error messages somewhere, either journalctl or log files
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2358 [20:30:09] <ratrace> SGrover: remove the -q flag for nginx from ExecStartPre
2359 [20:30:58] <SGrover> ratrace, make it noisy so we can see the symptoms? sounds good to me.. :)
2360 [20:31:02] <ratrace> ya
2361 [20:31:20] <Highd> ratrace: 'apt-get install ntp' is a very statefull way of saying... "i permit"
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2378 [20:41:36] <Highd> do you guys think we can expect systemd-resolved as a sane default on 11?
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2383 [20:45:59] <ratrace> I doubt it. still too buggy, especially with DNSSEC
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2390 [20:50:46] <SGrover> ratrace, I've done the reboot, and grabbed the contents of journalctl -xb to a pastie - replaced-url
2391 [20:51:04] <SGrover> That shows the service tries to start, and then stops, but doesn't tell me WHY it timed out.
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2394 [20:51:43] <SGrover> It does though show that other services have similar timeouts and keep retrying until they are started...
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2396 [20:53:33] <SGrover> I have an obvious question then... would my "problem" go away if I switched to a different distro (maybe Red Hat). I'm not planning on making a change at this time, but am curious...
2397 [20:53:36] <ratrace> SGrover: what kind of VM is that, what's the hypervisor? Something tells me OpenVZ
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2399 [20:54:07] <SGrover> ratrace, It's on top of the Scale system. I don't know which hypervisor they use.
2400 [20:54:26] <greycat> Until you find out what the underlying problem is, there's no way to know if switching operating systems would "fix" it.
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2402 [20:55:41] <ratrace> SGrover: you got plenty of services there failing and timing out, and most suspicious is that var-replaced-url
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2405 [20:56:57] <SGrover> ratrace, the var-replaced-url
2406 [20:57:29] <SGrover> Short term fix is that I have to do a manual start if we have a power cycle for any reason.
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2412 [20:59:12] <SGrover> I have a window of opportunity here to nail this down, as I'm working on the secondary load balancing server which is not part of the load balancing system yet. But it is a clone of the primary server, which exhibits the same issue.
2413 [20:59:26] <SGrover> So if I can fix it here I can fix it on that server too.
2414 [21:00:01] <ratrace> SGrover: ah one more thing... install the haveged package and try again . you have that crng init done pretty late in the sequence and right after that ssh.service recovers
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2416 [21:01:09] <SGrover> ratrace, I started down the path of blaming the virtualization system too. But my diagnostic script shows that it can't start the service either on reboot - unless I manually start that script. So that *seems* to me to be an OS level thing.
2417 [21:01:18] <SGrover> the script works fine, just not on boot.
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2427 [21:06:35] <joepublic> "the script works fine, just not on boot" is frequently a path issue
2428 [21:06:55] <greycat> Not so much with systemd services, it's not.
2429 [21:07:04] <greycat> Usually it's a race condition.
2430 [21:07:32] <SGrover> er, just to be clear, my diagnostic script runs "service nginx start" every 10 seconds, for 10 minutes. It always fails (when running via cron @reboot), but I can run service nginx start manually and the service starts.
2431 [21:07:36] <greycat> service X needs service Y to be up first, but there isn't an explicitly After= declaration
2432 [21:07:40] <joepublic> Oh, I thought systemd was invented in part to solve that kind of thing. My bad.
2433 [21:07:41] <ratrace> SGrover: did you try with haveged installed?
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2435 [21:07:55] <SGrover> just finished getting it installed.
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2437 [21:08:21] <greycat> ratrace: oh, that's a good thought.
2438 [21:08:23] <SGrover> we'll have to wait 5ish minutes while the VM does its thing rebooting...
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2441 [21:09:17] <ratrace> joepublic: systemd was not invented to magically solve unsatisfied relationships between services, no.
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2443 [21:09:44] <joepublic> ratrace, no that was the "my bad" -- it provides an effective way to solve them, but doesn't magically implement it for you
2444 [21:09:47] <ratrace> quite the contrary, it made it possible to express a variety of different relationships, but that's not the issue here
2445 [21:09:59] <ratrace> joepublic: oh I thought you were sarcasming :)
2446 [21:10:21] <joepublic> that's my usual thing, yeah, but this was just stupidly defective thinking
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2448 [21:10:56] <jhutchins_wk> SGrover: Which release is this on?
2449 [21:11:20] <SGrover> 10 lts
2450 [21:11:37] <ratrace> greycat: entropy is first thing to suspect when I see ssh timing out . but could be red herring, as other services that are failing are all depending on the network too.
2451 [21:11:40] <greycat> debian 10 isn't under LTS yet. hell, even debian 9 isn't.
2452 [21:11:48] <SGrover> er.. it's on 10... whichever was the most recent when we installed the core system a few months back
2453 [21:11:56] <annadane> yeah, just 10
2454 [21:12:33] <SGrover> ratrace, it looks like the haveged package resolved the issue
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2456 [21:12:47] <ratrace> figures.
2457 [21:12:59] <SGrover> I was able to SSH back to the server in just a minute or so, AND nginx is running.
2458 [21:13:01] <greycat> the allow-hotplug -> auto *and* haveged, probably...
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2460 [21:13:44] <SGrover> and the output from my diagnostic script has a single entry - "Nginx is running". Sooo All fixed I think.
2461 [21:13:50] <greycat> \o/
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2463 [21:14:01] <ratrace> !next
2464 [21:14:01] <dpkg> Another happy customer leaves the building.
2465 [21:14:47] <SGrover> ratrace, thanks. I would never have clued into an entropy issue here. I'm still not even sure why it mattered, but I'll take the fix.. :)
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2467 [21:15:38] <SGrover> as a test I'm going to try just haveged on my staging server (which should be restarted anyway as it is the source of the rsyslog errors... it is our central syslog server for this particular use case)
2468 [21:15:39] <greycat> replaced-url
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2470 [21:15:55] <greycat> it's not one of my first thoughts either, since I've never actually run into it
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2472 [21:16:45] <ratrace> btw, systemd meanwhile fixed this (does its own entropy seeding now) so bullseye shouldn't have these issues in low entropy environments like VMs
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2474 [21:17:55] <SGrover> thanks for the link greycat - I can give that to our network team so they are aware of the issue. Though I'm the only one running linux in our network... Hopefully that will change some.
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2477 [21:21:11] <SGrover> I feel great. That was an obscure problem... which means it wasn't at a level I should have "just known about"... I always feel better when I can prove that I'm not just an uneducated moron.. :)
2478 [21:21:38] <greycat> (two problems)
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2480 [21:21:55] <SGrover> greycat, I'm testing the two problem theory.. :)
2481 [21:22:57] <SGrover> but I do agree that both fixes are required. I'm just curious if both are NEEDED to address the nginx problem.
2482 [21:23:21] <greycat> The allow-hotplug thing creates race conditions, so you might not see the symptoms every time.
2483 [21:23:40] <greycat> And some services may be far more susceptible to the race than others.
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2486 [21:24:27] <Highd> ratrace: Why bullseye? this buster I just installed is running system-random-seed.service is loaded and active ... would'nt this take care of that?
2487 [21:24:40] *** Quits: tsarompy (~tsarompy@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2488 [21:24:52] <SGrover> Installing haveged only solves the nginx problem. We were consistently seeing nginx issues when rebooting. apt install haveged on my staging server is the only change I made there. Rebooting results in faster access via SSH and nginx is running.
2489 [21:24:56] <greycat> NFS is particularly bad because it does name resolutions of the hosts in the config file *one* time, and that's it. If the hostname lookup fails during boot, that share is not allowed. You have to restart the entire daemon to get it to redo a name lookup.
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2491 [21:24:59] <ratrace> Highd: because iirc it was added after systemd v241
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2493 [21:25:16] <SGrover> Now that I know, I can also alter the network config to make things right.. :)
2494 [21:25:23] <jhutchins_wk> Allow hotplug is intended for things like laptops that get moved from one wired connection to another, or only get connected some of the time.
2495 [21:25:34] <ratrace> Highd: (and is a new feature that already broke with AMD chips that lied about RNG so probably not backported into Debian)
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2498 [21:25:51] <jhutchins_wk> SGrover: It _can_ work at boot, but it's "cleaner" to have auto for a full-time connection.
2499 [21:25:54] <Highd> scary stuff!
2500 [21:26:36] <SGrover> jhutchins_wk, agreed.
2501 [21:26:40] <ratrace> Highd: systemd wants to be strict an unambigious with many things so it often breaks against buggy firmware and hardware
2502 [21:27:01] <somiaj> you can actually make up your own classification and 'ifup --allow=class' brings up all interfaces of that classification.
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2505 [21:27:24] <Highd> I have had problems with /dev/random and openvz for eons
2506 [21:27:39] <somiaj> the networking init script basically does 'ifup --allow=auto', the hotplug classification is a bit different (beacuse it is triggered with udev) but similar idea
2507 [21:27:52] <Highd> ratrace: You seem knowledgeable on sd internals within debian dev, maybe you can help me understand the chain of command:
2508 [21:28:04] <Highd> replaced-url
2509 [21:28:18] <Highd> "with today's upload of systemd 244.1-2 I finally enabled persistent journal by default [1]. [...]"
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2511 [21:28:42] <Highd> he continues:
2512 [21:28:46] <Highd> "Depending on how it goes, I might ask the ftp-masters to lower the priority of rsyslog from important to optional, so it would no longer be installed by default on new bullseye installations. This would avoid, that we store log messages twice on disk."
2513 [21:29:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1541
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2515 [21:29:05] <Highd> I have been away from the project for a long long time....
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2517 [21:29:18] <ratrace> Highd: so what's your question? :)
2518 [21:29:20] <Highd> I wanted to know if this is how decisions on defaults are being made nowadays
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2520 [21:29:39] <greycat> Wasn't it always?
2521 [21:29:54] <ratrace> oh. well that's politics, and even more importantly.... debian politics.
2522 [21:30:01] <greycat> One maintainer, or one maintainer-committee, makes the decisions about each package...
2523 [21:30:27] <ratrace> see they want journald persistent but also drop rsyslog from defaults so it doesn't log twice. and that cause quite a stir on the mailing lists...
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2525 [21:30:47] <somiaj> Highd: package defaults are often decided by the matainers. Things that affect the whole system (like defualt init system or default desktop) often go up for a vote, such as the vote we had last fall. replaced-url
2526 [21:30:51] <jhutchins_wk> That has been one of the contentious points about systemd, choices being made without community input.
2527 [21:30:58] <ratrace> I don't care either way as it's all configurable and I keep journald volatile and small in memory, deliberately.
2528 [21:31:24] <greycat> As long as you're still *able* to install rsyslogd, I don't see a serious issue.
2529 [21:31:31] <ratrace> jhutchins_wk: jh
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2531 [21:32:02] <somiaj> but due to the vote last fall, the resolution is basically use systemd, so the that vote basically gives systemd matainers some leway in deciding defaults
2532 [21:32:40] <somiaj> (and I'm with greycat, defaults don't mean much in debian if you have the choice to install/use what you want)
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2534 [21:32:57] <somiaj> I think people are overly attached to defaults
2535 [21:33:35] <ratrace> jhutchins_wk: sorry, had a packet drop there.... wanted to ask, what community input, and why would they want it. that would only grind everything to a halt as tens of thousands of people flame and fight, instead of dozens of DDs.
2536 [21:34:06] <ratrace> Imagine the systemd vote if all of us, non-DDs, had a say on the MLs
2537 [21:34:34] <ratrace> nothankyou. all I ask: keep it configurable so I can run journald volatile if I want, and use syslog if I want.
2538 [21:35:29] <Highd> somiaj, well... defaults mean a lot in my view of the world...
2539 [21:35:41] <Highd> I would go as far as defaults define debian and its reputation
2540 [21:35:46] <zatumil> I suppose default packages have better testing and bug reports
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2543 [21:36:25] <somiaj> Highd: I could see this for some defaults (like systemd is now fairly core in debian). But default destktop to me is meaningless, as you can install any desktop/wm you want
2544 [21:36:59] <somiaj> but removing rsylogd from default I don't see being a big deal. If you want to use it, install it
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2546 [21:37:56] <ratrace> precisely.
2547 [21:37:57] <Highd> I have been around to see syslog, syslog-ng and rsyslogd being the default... that is besides the point
2548 [21:38:05] <Highd> somiaj, you said it best:
2549 [21:38:07] <Highd> Things that affect the whole system (like defualt init system or default desktop) often go up for a vote
2550 [21:38:59] <somiaj> Yea, systemd was not just decided by the debian devs, they had long (probably to long) discussion and a vote to finally adopt it in debian.
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2552 [21:39:38] <greycat> Yeah, the switch to systemd as default init system was a major decision.
2553 [21:39:45] <somiaj> the last vote was weither to continue to focus on systemd or spend time working with other init systems. I belive the resolution was focus on systemd but allow exploring of other init systems by devs who want to.
2554 [21:39:46] <Highd> so if tomorrow potts and biebl go ahead with homed we can expect that to be honored by us millions of debian users because "voted"
2555 [21:39:54] <greycat> !why systemd
2556 [21:39:54] <dpkg> a tired argument. Start by reading rra's excellent analysis at replaced-url
2557 [21:40:13] <greycat> dpkg, why systemd =~ s/8-9/8-10/
2558 [21:40:13] <dpkg> OK, greycat
2559 [21:40:17] <ratrace> and systemd is also NOT easily (re)configurable, that's why it needed a GR. persistent journald and no-rsyslog is easily reconfigurable and don't really need GR
2560 [21:40:22] <Highd> nonono, homed, timesyncd, resolved... != systemd
2561 [21:40:32] <Highd> im all of systemd, f' init scripts
2562 [21:41:12] <ratrace> Highd: and thus they can easily be ignored.
2563 [21:41:34] <ratrace> (homed, timesyncd, resolved)
2564 [21:41:38] <Highd> but the system default has shifted from comunity decision to potts and biebl
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2566 [21:42:20] <ratrace> Highd: it's just a config
2567 [21:42:23] <greycat> Debian doesn't blindly take *all* of the upstream systemd features. There is still some thought.
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2570 [21:42:45] <Highd> grey: that is all I wanted to hear... I feel conforted
2571 [21:42:58] <Highd> your sweet grey beard!
2572 [21:43:08] <somiaj> 'from comunity' is a bit vague, at some level the community doens't have much say, it is the debian developers. Just over time the commuinty has a smaller and smaller percentage of debian devs, so back in the 90s, the debian devs were more integrated into the community, but this just comes with sie
2573 [21:43:13] <somiaj> size
2574 [21:43:35] <greycat> The one that comes to mind is when upstream systemd changed to automatically terminate all user processes at logout. Debian patched around that.
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2576 [21:44:40] <Highd> omg, I read about that yesterday !
2577 [21:44:50] <XsiSec> HI folks I have a 512gb SSD Disk I have googled a bit etc, (I am currently got 32 gb ram as well), my question is what is the recommend partition size for : home,root,tmp,swap,var,efi please help me out I been looking around and seen a lots of examples but not really happy with those.
2578 [21:44:50] <Highd> on the upstream list... mind blown
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2580 [21:45:05] <greycat> #825394
2581 [21:45:06] <judd> Bug replaced-url
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2584 [21:45:50] <somiaj> XsiSec: Does your use case actually use all of your ram (even at 16gb, I don't use all my ram), so I personnally don't run a swap on my ssd as a result.
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2587 [21:45:53] <greycat> XsiSec: it depends on what you plan to do with the system. If it's a desktop box, no encryption stuff, you could just use one big partition.
2588 [21:45:57] <jhutchins_wk> What's an example of needing to NOT kill user processes?
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2590 [21:46:08] <greycat> jhutchins_wk: nohup, screen with detach, etc.
2591 [21:46:25] <Highd> tmux
2592 [21:46:28] <XsiSec> somiaj, yes I will use all that ram.
2593 [21:46:44] <somiaj> XsiSec: Another thing with swap is if you want to hibernate (this is different than suspend)
2594 [21:46:53] <greycat> If it's a laptop that you want to suspend(?) you need swap big enough to hold memory, I think.
2595 [21:46:57] <jhutchins_wk> greycat: Yes, those should be preservable. Ok.
2596 [21:46:58] <XsiSec> greycat, I gonna use LVM and encrypted on all stuff except the efi partition.
2597 [21:47:03] <greycat> I don't know laptop words. Hibernate, sleep, suspend, something.
2598 [21:47:15] <XsiSec> greycat, I gonna virtualize vmware stations and boxes within my machine.
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2600 [21:47:29] <somiaj> XsiSec: then your swap size will be related to how much ram you expect to use. If you expect to use 40gigs of ram, you should make your swap + real ram about 50gb
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2602 [21:47:44] <jhutchins_wk> greycat: Yeah, different people use them differently too. I use "suspend to RAM" and "suspend to disk".
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2604 [21:48:10] <XsiSec> could you please provide an example per partition xD I find it so hard
2605 [21:48:25] <somiaj> I've always heard hibernate to disk, but I guess I use that to avoid thinking of it as suspend (since in suspend the laptop still powers the memeory)
2606 [21:48:31] <jhutchins_wk> XsiSec: Accept whatevet the installer deaults to for autopartition.
2607 [21:48:34] <greycat> some people make /home a separate partition, so that it can easily survive across a full reinstall, or be shared across multiple operating systems
2608 [21:49:01] <XsiSec> jhutchins, no I dont, because it was really pain in ass the example the setup provided sorry for my language.
2609 [21:49:18] <greycat> some people make /boot a separate partition because they intend to use nearly-full-disk-encryption, and some of those choices require a non-encrypted /boot
2610 [21:49:21] <Highd> greycat: do you know of any hacks to get containers to sync accounts and password with host?
2611 [21:49:25] <somiaj> XsiSec: so much depends on use case, so it is hard for us to really know what you want. You could just do one big partition (if you odn't know how you want to split things up). Unless you have a use case for a separte /var, /usr, and so on, I wouldn't use it
2612 [21:49:53] <XsiSec> I would like at least to have the '/' double size of 'home'
2613 [21:49:56] <jhutchins_wk> XsiSec: Unless you have a specific task this system is dedicated to, and know exactly where you will accumulate data, a single operating partition is the best solution.
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2615 [21:50:16] <somiaj> XsiSec: any reason you need them to be separate. This way you don't have to predict where your data is going to go.
2616 [21:50:19] <jhutchins_wk> XsiSec: Partitioning in other cases simply guarantees that the space you need will be on the wrong partition.
2617 [21:50:36] <somiaj> XsiSec: I personally split off /home but that is because I use that partition to put my data on, and makes resintall easier. But I have a use case for that.
2618 [21:51:07] <XsiSec> somiaj, yea if I make changes re-install debian later on thats why I want to keep em separetly
2619 [21:51:09] <somiaj> XsiSec: but I put all my vms in /home/libvirt for isntance, The only thing that goes on / is the software and logs
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2621 [21:51:22] <jhutchins_wk> I had a provider that built a system with a very small /home because there were only two actual users.
2622 [21:51:49] <jhutchins_wk> What they didn't account for was there were about 30 users with their web sites under their $HOME.
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2629 [21:58:20] <Highd> if I try to symlink /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow to a lxc mount to share creds between containers... adduser and passwd refuse to update because symlink
2630 [21:58:55] <Highd> I really did not want to resort to ansible or hack a lxc-attach shell script
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2632 [22:01:17] <XsiSec> is it not any constant /condition to each of the partitions I could follow then I just multiple?
2633 [22:02:23] <greycat> It's a judgment call. There is no single answer.
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2661 [22:16:59] <somiaj> Highd: wouldn't a solution to this is use some network auth (like LDAP) for all the auth and not use local accounts?
2662 [22:17:10] <jhutchins_wk> XsiSec: The idea of separate partitions comes from the era when a 1M hard drive was the size of a washing machne and cost as much as a car.
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2667 [22:18:11] <somiaj> or when there wasn't enough space on / for /bin, so you need to split up the data on multiple drives
2668 [22:18:24] <somiaj> but now with lvm, this is even less an issue and just historical cruft
2669 [22:18:44] <Highd> yep, or radius, tacacs, kerbros, sss... I wanted to avoid having to set that up for every container host environment I need spin up
2670 [22:18:57] <jhutchins_wk> XsiSec: Once you've gained experience on where you need space you can make good decisions about it. If you don't know, go with a single partition until you do.
2671 [22:18:58] <XsiSec> I am done now I made what I think is best for me :)
2672 [22:19:13] <XsiSec> I got the experience just asked for some advices..
2673 [22:19:22] <Highd> I guess I can just setup a master container for password changes and account additions, and let the other ones read only
2674 [22:19:36] <somiaj> Highd: hmm, for some reason I was thinking that woulnd't be to hard with pam, but yea I guess you need a key for each instance for trust
2675 [22:20:04] <Highd> and network connectivity for an otherwise isolated container environment
2676 [22:20:11] <somiaj> though maybe if all of the machines are on some subnet, you could do tha tfor trust
2677 [22:20:31] <Highd> or a container just for auth services... either way painful on a lazy friday
2678 [22:21:40] <Highd> or a .timer that scp propagate shadow changes around, sounds like an pretty hideous idea!
2679 [22:21:40] <Highd> lol
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2685 [22:23:21] <somiaj> Highd: do channels with people who use openvz a lot have any suggestions?
2686 [22:23:23] <Highd> somiaj, that is actually pretty cool... could I do subnet based trust with pam/ldap clients?
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2688 [22:23:59] <somiaj> Highd: I don't really know, I was more thinking maybe you could.
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2690 [22:25:31] <somiaj> replaced-url
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2692 [22:26:32] <Highd> "There are basically two ways to configure PAM to use an LDAP server. The first option utilizes the pam_ldap module from the libpam-ldap package to check credentials against the LDAP server. The second way uses password hashes sent from the LDAP server to the client using NSS. A traditional pam_unix module then does the authentication. In the later
2693 [22:26:33] <Highd> option, pam_ldap can still be used to change passwords. "
2694 [22:26:42] <Highd> The later !
2695 [22:26:55] <Highd> replaced-url
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2700 [22:30:15] <BadLuckBob> hi! can't install opera on debian buster vbox guest: replaced-url
2701 [22:31:27] <somiaj> BadLuckBob: debian doesn't provide opera, so what source are you using to get opera?
2702 [22:31:33] <somiaj> ,v libcurl3
2703 [22:31:34] <judd> Package: libcurl3 on amd64 -- jessie: 7.38.0-4+deb8u11; jessie-security: 7.38.0-4+deb8u16; stretch: 7.52.1-5+deb9u9; stretch-proposed-updates: 7.52.1-5+deb9u10; stretch-security: 7.52.1-5+deb9u10
2704 [22:32:36] <somiaj> whatever source you are using was built for jessie and stretch, buster no longer has libcurl3 package. The new package is libcurl4
2705 [22:32:55] <somiaj> so you need to check whatever source you are getting this browser and ask them to update their packages for buster (or see if they ahve a source for buster)
2706 [22:33:17] <BadLuckBob> somiaj: it's on repository. added repository and key ok.
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2709 [22:33:27] <BadLuckBob> on=own
2710 [22:33:49] <somiaj> it is third party, you have to ask them about their packages. But the repo seems to not be updated to have packages for buster, or you didn't use a buster repo when you added it.
2711 [22:34:00] <BadLuckBob> i seem to have libcurl4
2712 [22:34:33] <greycat> You either need a newer package of opera, built for buster, or you need to install some pacakges from older releases (and pray), or you need to RUN the older release.
2713 [22:34:44] <BadLuckBob> brb (got the add info from google)
2714 [22:35:11] <greycat> (Or use a different browser.)
2715 [22:36:30] <BadLuckBob> repository: deb replaced-url
2716 [22:36:57] <BadLuckBob> so it doesn't say stretch or buster etc
2717 [22:37:08] <somiaj> you need to contact opera about their repo.
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2720 [22:38:09] <BadLuckBob> somiaj: ok, I will. thanks.
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2737 [22:47:18] <Highd> greycat: Just found an anecdote on the subject of choice replaced-url
2738 [22:47:19] <judd> Bug replaced-url
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2743 [22:49:00] <Highd> Now I know where I got the strange idea that 9 did not have timesyncd enabled by default.... GCP!
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2754 [22:57:57] <BadLuckBob> somiaj: It looks like it's a crap-shoot to get opera working under debian. 'stable' could be several releases back. LOL! I'll find another browser.
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2764 [23:06:04] <BadLuckBob> somiaj: can I just uninstall this opera? remove whatever parts of it from my system?
2765 [23:06:35] <greycat> Since it's a package, yes. It's easy: just purge it with apt or dpkg.
2766 [23:06:53] <BadLuckBob> ok
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2777 [23:13:24] <autopsy> <autopsy> How do I do this properly? for one in one two three; do dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdc seek=$((16384 * 14652416)) bs=16384 status=progress count=14652416; done
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2781 [23:14:45] <autopsy> Please sum1 halp.
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2783 [23:14:59] <autopsy> <autopsy> <autopsy> How do I do this properly? for one in one two three; do dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdc seek=$((16384 * 14652416)) bs=16384 status=progress count=14652416; done
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2785 [23:15:20] <somiaj> are you just trying to zero out the whole drive?
2786 [23:15:55] <somiaj> though I guess with the seek it is a part of the drive Which part of the drive do you want to zero out?
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2814 [23:34:02] <XsiSec> hi again, could someone help me out I am little bit confused which of following directories is the debian stretch non free iso? --> replaced-url
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2816 [23:35:19] <pasiz_> XsiSec: first directory states non free, what you are looking for...
2817 [23:35:27] <mspe> 10.3.0+nonfree is the installers directory
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2819 [23:35:37] <mspe> 10.3.0-live+nonfree is the live images directory
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2821 [23:36:12] <mspe> depends if you want a bootable complete system or only the installer
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2823 [23:36:34] <XsiSec> actually you maybe could help me out umm I have put on my usb drive the iwlwifi 9260 th b0jfb036.tar.gz but I am not sure how I install it I created on my debian /lib/firmware also put the 3 *ucode files in that folder.
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2826 [23:36:52] <BadLuckBob> somiaj: that was easy - 'not installed so uninstall not done'
2827 [23:37:34] <XsiSec> I tried in first place with sudo dpkg -i the firmware as deb file but it didnt work so I went from dells home page downloaded the tar.gz firmware and went that way
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2831 [23:40:20] <crestfallen> hi wondering about anonymous email servers that are run from the terminal. there was one (name?) but I couldn't get it to work. I believe it is no longer maintained..
2832 [23:41:24] <crestfallen> I guess this could be a sore subject
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2835 [23:42:57] <oerheks> crestfallen, even if there is one existing, what relay would accept anonymous mail?
2836 [23:43:11] <oerheks> spam is bad
2837 [23:45:48] <pasiz_> crestfallen: to create open relay for what reason?
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2839 [23:46:18] <XsiSec> paraxial, looking for the stretch iso
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2844 [23:54:00] <crestfallen> oerheks, pasiz_ thanks actually I wasn't aware of that
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2846 [23:57:10] <dvs> XsiSec, replaced-url
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