2[00:02:04] <hatter_> jhutchins, I have been upgrade boxes to buster, usually when I run : shorewall restart it works, since buster, I have to do /sbin/shorewall restart. This has happened on about 10 so far, but I Just did one and it didn't happen.
3[00:02:40] <jhutchins> !su
4[00:02:41] <dpkg> extra, extra read all about it, su is switch/set user. It is used to change User ID's and/or gain super user access. Since Debian Buster, "su -" or "su -l" is needed to access programs located in /sbin. It provides an root environment as if the superuser had logged in directly. See "man su".
5[00:02:42] <hatter_> Thinking about it, this box was a fresh stretch install where the others have been upgraded from wheezy to jessie to stretch to buster
13[00:04:55] <hatter_> but you are right, it's a pretty vague question to ask in here.
14[00:05:08] <coruja> !usrmerge
15[00:05:09] <dpkg> /usr merge is the combining of /bin and /usr/bin, /sbin and /usr/sbin on fresh installs of Debian 10 Buster. On machines upgraded from Stretch, this is optional, and can be accomplished if desired via the usrmerge package
37[00:16:20] <jhutchins> ratrace: Your use of the term "fakeraid" is imprecise, uninformative, and prejudiced. It does not help the user understand the difference or the advanatage of software raid.
38[00:16:23] <hatter_> jhutchins, I have done about 30 boxes. There is only 1 which had a major issue. The others are all fine. Some minor teething things.
40[00:17:09] <jhutchins> hatter_: You might want to look at a configuration management system like puppet, ansible, or cheff to standardize settings across the board.
44[00:17:38] <hatter_> jhutchins, yes I think it's time for that. When they are all Buster I will.
45[00:17:46] <hatter_> I am also migrating from virtualbox to KVM.
46[00:17:59] <jhutchins> hatter_: This sounds a bit like a computer lab. I know of labs where they re-image the systems from a standard image every night.
51[00:20:02] <hatter_> unborn, yes, I have been using virtualbox for years, it has been fine, it was better in the middle part where it was part of debian proper, but I also use KVM on Centos, I like the idea of being away from Oracle and on a system that is so mature as KVM.
52[00:20:45] <hatter_> unborn, how are you managing your guest VM's ?
58[00:23:09] <jhutchins> I don't manage our current implementation, I just apply it.
59[00:23:16] <unborn> hatter_: personally I was using virtualbox for long time as well.. I guess since 2009? I was scared about kvm.. most parts I did not understand it, then I cam here and someone suggest me to use it.. convert my vboxes to kvm and I did try it.. I had problem with virtual network but since terminal yelled on me the issue, it was simple, but beauty is I manage it more efficient and use real shared resources.
60[00:23:18] <hatter_> jhutchins, which is you preference ?
61[00:23:37] <jhutchins> ansible is great for one-offs, puppet has the advantage of 'enforcing' configurations so if somebody changes something it gets changed back.
66[00:24:32] <hatter_> as in, apt-get update across multiple boxes ?
67[00:24:58] <hatter_> unborn, what do you mean by 'real shared resources' ?
68[00:25:11] <unborn> hatter_: virt-manager (I know it sounds stupid but my mother is 58 years old and she needs windows for sage and she is primary on debian past 8 years and she refused dual boot) but it does worked for her and even for me
69[00:25:12] <jhutchins> hatter_: Puppet can get to a point where it is consuming resources logrhythmicly, including your time. It _can_ be managed sensibly.
71[00:25:57] <Randolf> ratrace: I wasn't insisting on a fake RAID implementation, I was wanting to use hardware RAID. But since it's not hardware, and therefore not real, I've shut it off and wish to proceed with setting up software RAID now for installing Debian 10.2.0.
72[00:26:25] <hatter_> randolf, mdadm is amazing
73[00:26:49] <ratrace> Randolf: good choice
74[00:26:58] <hatter_> I am not sure why to bother with hardware raid, I guess for heavy systems it is faster
117[00:53:26] *** Quits: dez (uid92154@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
118[00:53:57] <Randolf> Okay, from the Debian installer (which I have on a USB memory stick) is there a way to set up the software RAID mirror from the get-go?
119[00:54:13] <hatter_> yes
120[00:54:23] <Randolf> Awesome! I just selected keyboard and timezones.
131[00:56:47] <Randolf> I'm at the "Partition disks" menu now. Should I select "Manual" for setting up the mirror? Or is this something I'll need to do later on in the process?
132[00:59:06] *** dix is now known as Malivaso
133[00:59:07] <hatter_> hmmm, I can't remember off the top of my head, but yes to manual, configure software raid is right at the beginning
134[01:00:02] *** Quits: Clarth (~Clarth@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
135[01:00:03] *** Quits: ghost64 (~ghost64@replaced-ip) (Quit: See you!)
137[01:00:49] <hatter_> you create the partitions on both drives, then go into the software RAID section, then create your mirrors, then setup your filesystem
160[01:07:33] <Randolf> Damn, "Starting up the partitioner" is stuck at 50%. I probably need to reboot because I can't kill the process in the shell on the second screen -- the "kill" command can't find the process ID even though "ps" can.
161[01:07:48] <hatter_> perhaps if it is done automatically ? are you creating your own partition sizes ?
168[01:08:39] <Randolf> No. It's a new, USB 3, and connected to a USB 3 port. Installations are much faster this way -- I don't miss installing from CD or DVD.
169[01:08:50] <hatter_> ah nice
170[01:09:12] <hatter_> I had installs going from tftp once for awhile, that was great.
171[01:09:53] <Randolf> One thing I dislike about all the installation software these days is that they ask one question per screen. I wish I could just see all the questions on one screen, scroll along and enter the fields. Or even if there was a series of only two or three of these it sure would be a lot easier.
175[01:12:07] *** Quits: thelastjedi (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
176[01:12:42] <Randolf> What the heck? I just rebooted, started a fresh install, and told the Debian installer to fill up the whole disk (with LVM), which normally works without any problem. But now it's complaining "Error while deleting the logical volume." I really don't care what's on the disk now (which is essentially nothing) as this is a new install, so this really shouldn't be an issue.
183[01:14:57] <qman__> my usual procedure for something like that is to wipe the disks then reboot into the installer after
184[01:16:38] <Randolf> dvs: Okay, I removed all partitions from both disks, but when I try to write the partition changes I get this error: No root file system is defined.
185[01:16:45] <Randolf> Well, of course not, I just deleted all the partitions.
186[01:17:30] <Randolf> This installer really needs to be a bit more intelligent about this sort of thing -- past history shouldn't be an issue.
187[01:17:48] <dvs> Randolf, restart the installer and erase the partitions first.
189[01:18:22] <Randolf> Okay, I will have to continue this in a few hours. Kids are home, and it's time for family activities. Thanks everyone, I'll come back to this in a while.
195[01:21:02] <Randolf> The older one just started university a few months ago, studying 3D Animation. The youngest is nearly finished elementary school and is pre-occupied with Quantum Physics, Hematology, Neuroscience, and Logic. Disk partitions really aren't their specialties ... but they can be.
208[01:22:46] *** sedrosken_ is now known as sedrosken
209[01:22:47] <hatter_> Blender is making strides in the animation space
210[01:23:05] <Randolf> Blender3D is at the point where I think it can rival Maya.
211[01:23:26] <hatter_> apparently, they recently got a large investment to work on the interface I believe
212[01:23:33] <Randolf> It was talked about at the university class, but Maya gives licenses to the school to make sure students are trained on their products.
213[01:23:53] <Randolf> Sorry, I have to go. I'll chat more later. Thanks again for all your help.
279[02:20:12] <LACampbell42> hi, my wifi device is shown as down in 'ip a', but 'ip link set wlo1' doesnt change its state. lshw shows there is a driver. any ideas? works fine off of rescue USB
347[03:22:22] *** Quits: john_k_h (~jkh@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
348[03:22:26] <Gerowen> Question regarding MATE. Why do .desktop files that specify "Terminal=true" not launch? Tried it using a clean install of Debain in a VM to see if it was something broken about my system and didn't work there, setting Terminal=false fixes the issue.
408[04:01:33] <john_k_h> I'm importing from a kde-4 installation. I've got sid loading now. I've been at linux for 20+ years, so if I screw up, I'll just reload until I like it or I go search for a different distro.
423[04:07:57] <ryouma> do you guys find it quicker and less error-prone to (a) install on new hardware, then fix accounts, permissions, package list, and /etc or (b) copy the running installation to the new hardware, then fix sound, ethernet, x, etc.?
427[04:08:54] *** Quits: Tom01_ (~tom@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
428[04:08:55] <nvz> ryouma: there shouldn't really be anything to fix when moving to new hardware unless you're using proprietary drivers and custom X config
429[04:09:17] <nvz> if its the same arch, it should all just work
432[04:11:48] <ryouma> i'd prefer (b) strongly too as (a) is really daunting to get right. my computer broke, so i did (b) on same arch (and same era old computer), and quickly fixed the fixed ethernet naming scheme (really proud of myself for figuring out that one -- it was just config -a and /etc/network/preferences), but it is still not producing sound :(. i wonder if there are little breakages here and there that are introduced by (
437[04:14:29] <ryouma> if it weren't for the broken sound, it is just really really attractive to do (b), i.e. be able to copy over, do the (imo bizarre) grub chroot thing, and you're done
464[04:41:00] <nvz> I normally fresh install and copy over /home and /etc and such simply cause I'm usually doing this on an outdated machine and I find it easier to just install the current stuff fresh
465[04:41:54] <ryouma> why would (b) not work there?
466[04:42:32] <ryouma> for the last one
467[04:42:42] *** Quits: john_k_h (~jkh@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
468[04:42:49] <nvz> would just take longer.. you'd be copying the whole disk not just the relevant data then updating everything.. just seems simpler to me to install fresh.. idk
469[04:43:21] *** Quits: Gerowen (~Gerowen@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
470[04:43:38] <nvz> thats what I did on my father's machine.. he was running stretch and we had to change his hdd cause his old machine used a 2.5" 320G hdd and the new machine had a 3.5" 500G
471[04:43:50] <nvz> I just installed buster fresh and copied his stuff over
482[04:47:15] <ryouma> i mean, not questioning your judgement, just not understanding it
483[04:47:53] <nvz> its just all a matter of what you wanna do.. I didnt want to fool with trying to copy an old running system to a larger disk and upgrading it
484[04:48:14] *** Quits: john_k_h (~jkh@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
485[04:48:20] <nvz> if you do a filesystem level copy you gotta update fstab, grub, etc..
486[04:48:32] <nvz> if you do a block level copy you gotta grow partitions..
487[04:48:48] <ryouma> hmm
488[04:48:54] <nvz> it just seemed quicker to install a base, copy the package list and data
489[04:49:57] <nvz> there is less technical debt in a fresh install and migrating /etc/ and /home/
490[04:50:29] <nvz> and a base install is quick and easy to do.. then just import the package list and let it go
491[04:51:04] <ryouma> but to me fstab and stuff is straightforward (grub is NOT but i have it figured out in a script) while figuring out what packages YOU installed and replicating that is ... i have no idea what the right thing to do is there; there are many solutions iwth aptitude search that don't seem to get at what YOU installed.
492[04:51:23] <nvz> dpkg, apt clone?
493[04:51:25] <dpkg> nvz: I give up, what is it?
494[04:51:31] <nvz> dpkg, dpkg clone?
495[04:51:33] <dpkg> nvz: KCI error, or a problem with the Keyboard-Chair Interface.
496[04:51:40] <ryouma> i looked at that also, and wasn't impressed
519[04:59:15] <ryouma> i once did a whole bunch of stuff to store package lists and figure out ancestors and stuff but never did anything with it because i couldn't figure out which was canonical
529[05:05:51] <ryouma> well if it clarifies, i wasn't impressed was more just saying i didn't figure it out tot he point of confidence that it would solve the problem better than the aptitude stuff i was also trying. it is of course impressive that it exists, deals with expired packages, etc.
530[05:07:41] <ryouma> i also wanted small files to store
563[05:20:27] <annadane> if you installed a desktop via the installer, then it's task-something, like if you installed debian with xfce, then it's task-xfce-desktop, you can apt show task-xfce-desktop to see what it installed and selectively remove stuff
636[06:41:35] <Randolf> The GUI installer has exactly the same problem. Is it possible to use the Debian installer to partition disks? This is the error I keep getting: Error while deleting the logical volume. The logical volume root on debian-vg could not be deleted.
637[06:42:22] <Randolf> /var/log/syslog: partman-lvm: Cannot activate LVs in VG debian-vg while PVs appear on duplicate devices.
642[06:46:35] <tomreyn> Randolf: sometimes after repartitioning you may have to reboot and restart the installer, especially if you finished partitioning but then decide to repartition
643[06:47:51] <tomreyn> another option is to boot from a live system first and do the partitioning there, then make sure the first 1024 bytes of each partition are zeroed.
651[06:50:44] <ryouma> is there an apt-mark showmanual-oh-and-also-show-stuff-that-was-installed-forever-ago-like-basicallly-core-stuff-oh-and-whatever-changes-occurred-since-then-in-various-dist-upgrades-kthkxbye?
662[06:54:58] <ryouma> although right now it is telling me to remove " libasound2-plugins Use 'apt autoremove' to remove it." but apt autoremove does not do so.
663[06:57:57] <tomreyn> apt --purge autoremove
664[06:58:10] <tomreyn> oops, sorry, wrong window
665[06:58:41] <ryouma> i figured out that i have to supply the packatge name
666[06:58:59] <ryouma> also i found out that apt assumes that youa re not running in emacs shell mode
668[07:00:25] <Randolf> tomreyn: Thanks, the "dd" tool was there, fortunately, so I was able to get the drives cleared and get RAID1 configured. The prompts are confusing, but I think I got it all working and with LVM now. Thanks!
670[07:01:34] *** Quits: tyranny12 (~blarg@replaced-ip) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
671[07:02:39] <tomreyn> Randolf: you can also manually install some software from the shell prompt of a running debian-installer system, but you'd need to know the path to the package and be able to use it on a command line. parted it available, for example.
673[07:03:37] <Randolf> Thanks tomreyn. The problem is that a previous attempted installation occurred with the on-board RAID controller, which I just found out is not a real RAID controller.
688[07:24:49] <annadane> is links/links2/lynx the same?
689[07:25:08] <Randolf> annadane: No, they're different programs.
690[07:28:52] <annadane> oh i see, links2 has "graphical support" that links doesn't
691[07:29:04] <annadane> and lynx is a "web client" and not "web browser", whatever that means
692[07:29:45] <Randolf> Lynx is also a web browser.
693[07:30:22] <Randolf> Lynx works in text mode, just like Links does. No graphics, and each take different approaches to rendering web pages on text-only screens.
694[07:30:28] *** Quits: itamarst (uid165457@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
697[07:35:55] <Randolf> Each has its advantages and disadvantages, so I find it's good to have both available.
698[07:39:01] <annadane> i've kind of always lazily just used elinks
699[07:39:10] <ryouma> lynx can do some kind of parsing and grabbing urls for scripts
700[07:39:17] <ryouma> at least i used it once for that
701[07:39:27] <Randolf> Cool!
702[07:39:31] <ryouma> for text i use emacs
703[07:40:52] <Randolf> Well, GRUB installs successfully when I don't use any RAID at all. It looks like the RAID installation b0rks the GRUB installer, so I'd say it's not ready for production use at this point.
704[07:41:23] <Randolf> I'm going to just have to use the second drive as a backup copy with rsync maintaining it like a mirror.
734[07:55:13] <Randolf> For regular end-user workstations, Ubuntu Desktop is fine. Although, I do find the Debian colour scheme in the GUI to be a lot more to my liking (plus it looks more suitable for a corporate environment).
736[07:56:17] * nvz doesn't know what NetPlan is, but ubuntu sucks :P
737[07:57:26] <Randolf> NetPlan is the abomination that replaces ifupdown, and it's forced on all Ubuntu Desktop and Ubuntu Server users nowadays. It holds all the configuration settings in a YAML file, and it has some problems with IPv6 support.
739[07:58:01] <Randolf> I have a set of instructions that I follow to install ifupdown on Ubuntu and then remove NetPlan. This makes life a lot easier for system administration.
744[07:59:55] <Randolf> Oh yeah, I have no complaints about YAML. I just don't like it for configuring network interfaces, bridging, VPNs, routing, and all that good stuff.
745[08:00:31] <Randolf> Of course, it could have been worse -- they could have used XML.
747[08:02:09] <Randolf> One of the things I really love about Unix and Linux is that simple text files, which are nearly all stored under the /etc/ directory, are used to configure everything. No central Windows Registry that is a complete and utter mess to deal with that sometimes changes mysteriously. It just works, and it works consistently and reliably, which is how computers should be.
748[08:02:33] <nvz> Randolf: so in other words, you're new?
749[08:02:36] <Randolf> Heck, even WINE stores all the Windows Registry stuff in plain ASCII text files. This makes it extremely easy to edit.
751[08:03:57] <nvz> Randolf: apparently you never heard of things like gconf, dconf, gsettings..
752[08:04:09] <Randolf> nvz: I'm new to Debian. I've been using Ubuntu for about a year or so after Windows 10 repeatedly b0rked itself into blue screens (my only regret was not switching to Ubuntu earlier because everything works so much faster, including Adobe Photoshop that loads in under 10 seconds in Linux vs. ~5 minutes in Windows, and web browsers with hundreds of tabs re-opening at start that takes less than 1 second in Linux vs. 2-3 minutes in Windows).
753[08:04:26] <nvz> looks very much like the windows registry, just more organized and easy to understand
754[08:04:46] <Randolf> nvz: Before Linux, I've been using NetBSD for somewhere in the ballpark of 15-20 years. Before that, it was Novell NetWare.
755[08:04:59] <Randolf> I've actually heard of those tools, but I haven't used them.
756[08:05:56] <Randolf> I prefer FAR Manager / Midnight Commander, which make it so easy for me to manage configuration files, administer the file system, and so much more. Command-line stuff is good for me too as I type ~140 WPM.
757[08:06:01] <nvz> they store their settings in a large binary file and the tools look an aweful lot like regedit
758[08:06:44] <Randolf> On servers I've not encountered that, but the servers I set up (NetBSD, Ubuntu Server, Debian) don't have any GUI -- it's all text-only because a GUI simply isn't needed.
759[08:06:54] <Randolf> Perhaps those are GUI-specific tools?
760[08:07:20] <nvz> they are used by gui stuffs..
761[08:08:26] *** Quits: daniel_gc (~daniel_gc@replaced-ip) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
762[08:08:30] <Randolf> Ah, okay. Yeah, I do very little with the GUI. Where I use the GUI most is on my laptop, but mostly use FAR Manager for everything. GNOME's File Manager is awful.
763[08:08:58] <Randolf> Well, it's not awful, it's just too simple.
782[08:12:36] <nvz> I got it in 2008 and then CompTIA contacted me to help them with the new 2009 cert they were drafting, and I got that one for free too
783[08:13:03] <nvz> theirs is based on SLES which I've never used
784[08:13:30] <nvz> I'm not even sure what it stands for :P
785[08:13:36] <nvz> dpkg, SLES?
786[08:13:37] <dpkg> wish i knew, nvz
787[08:13:43] <nvz> yeah, that makes one of us
788[08:13:57] <nvz> Suse Linux Enterprise Server would be my guess
789[08:14:05] <BazookaTooth> comptia certs expire every 3 years. you have to either get a higher cert or do cpe courses. waste of money
790[08:14:06] <Randolf> I have a CNA which is a Certified NetWare Administrator certificate. I was tested on NetWare 3.11. It didn't expire, but then Novell tried to retroactively change that so that it does expire (they started doing that after Microsoft started retroactively expiring their certs), so I told their legal department that I reject their retroactive change. After some back-and-forth they decided to not do the retroactive expiries.
791[08:14:14] <auscompgeek> nvz: that sounds about right
792[08:14:54] *** Quits: Papin (~papin@replaced-ip) (Quit: An error has occured)
793[08:15:15] <Randolf> What would happen if a Ph.D. was to expire? Those who worked hard to earn their degrees would scream bloody murder. I feel that computer technicians were stupid not to scream bloody murder when certs were starting to expire -- to me, they're not worth anything if they expire.
794[08:15:48] <Randolf> Add the year to the post-nomials if you have to, but if they're going to expire then they're not worth even 1/10 of what they're selling them for.
835[09:12:49] <LACampbell> I have an issue where sound plays for a second or two then switches off. all the alsamixer levels remain stable. alsamixer reports a soundcard is there. any ideas at all?
837[09:15:01] <RandolfR> LACampbell: Do you have multiple speakers? Check your "Sound" settings to make sure that you're set to use the correct Output device.
838[09:16:13] <LACampbell> RandolfR: all output devices are unmuted. and the sound does play for a second, then sometimes pipes up again
839[09:16:21] <LACampbell> though it looks like a deep kernel issue
975[11:58:12] <goofball64> Should I set a root password or leave it blank?
976[11:58:54] <SpeedyG> goofball64: I usually dont set a root password, but keep a very strong user-password where the user can sudo into any root command.. but that's just a choice imho
982[12:00:38] <dpkg> well, alternatives is the way Debian manages multiple applications with the same function. For more info, man update-alternatives. Have a look at the galternatives package or ask me about <update-alternatives> <java alternatives>. replaced-url
1036[12:50:22] <anddam> howdy, I am in a WLAN with macOS systems that publish their mnemonic names, I figure the protocol is mDNS. What do I need on my Debian 9 in order to be able to resolve foo.local to the ip address of system identifying itself as "foo"?
1046[12:56:10] <Miles8of9> in good old times we used samba to access resources shared on the lan by windows machines... now windows 10 does not samba anymore... so....?
1098[13:25:26] <rudi_s> Delta706: X11 has several ways to give you access to additional symbols, e.g. the compose key. For example `setxkbmap -option compose:ralt us` and then using ralt-a should generate an ä.
1127[13:41:33] <not_a_snail> Currently installing Debian 3.0r6 on my Pentium 4 PC. It's been great.
1128[13:42:20] <not_a_snail> I hate how people say it was a pain to install, it's easy, just partition the disks with cfdisk, then proceed. I'm going to enjoy GNOME and KDE and Mozilla (not Firefox) v1.
1129[13:43:09] <ratrace> if you can get online at all
1130[13:44:12] <not_a_snail> I'll have to install the Intel Gigabit Linux drivers because the intelge driver didn't install properly during install; why didn't I pick the final revision?
1131[13:44:37] <ratrace> and if you do... you probably won't be able to browse any https site
1132[13:44:46] <not_a_snail> I know, it's for fun.
1133[13:45:34] <not_a_snail> The PC I'm typing this on is running Debian 10. Never had a problem with it, apart from ftp.au.debian.org not being updated regularly compared to deb.debian.org
1137[13:47:26] <not_a_snail> Only have to update 2 packages on my main Debian 10 system. I wonder how much I'll have to install to go from Debian 3.0->Debian 10.
1184[14:09:31] <not_a_snail> The intel ethernet drivers say when making "Linux kernel source not found".
1185[14:11:40] <petn-randall> not_a_snail: Debian woody has been out of support for more than a decade now, so you're pretty much on your own.
1186[14:11:42] <spacebug^> not_a_snail: This is a support channel for *stable* version of Debian. That is Stretch and Buster. Other things are offtopic
1187[14:12:04] <BazookaTooth> trolling anyway
1188[14:12:50] <not_a_snail> I'm well aware that it's dead, but I find it interesting.
1189[14:13:03] <not_a_snail> I'll look for a guide on it on tldp
1190[14:13:17] <not_a_snail> The stuff on there is horribly outdated (2000s)
1192[14:13:47] <petn-randall> not_a_snail: It sure is interesting, but not really suitable for #debian. It's best if you move this to #debian-offtopic.
1193[14:13:47] <not_a_snail> The text looks crisp on my CRT anyway.
1222[14:30:12] <openbsdtai123> hello debian world, I just installed DEBIAN TESTING, and I get a black screen of death after reboot on intel notebook. I would like to share with you that the default is not so great at all.
1223[14:30:46] <openbsdtai123> I can give you a better kernel.
1224[14:30:54] *** Quits: RoCkStArDeViL (uid215198@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1225[14:31:42] <petn-randall> !testing
1226[14:31:43] <dpkg> Testing is a continuously updated release between <stable> and <unstable>, currently codenamed <bullseye>. See replaced-url
1227[14:32:07] <petn-randall> openbsdtai123: Testing is not a stable release, and as such supported in a different channel. See above ^^^
1228[14:32:21] <openbsdtai123> yeah, but stable is same issue.
1229[14:32:33] <openbsdtai123> I would expect that the kernel can handle default notebook.
1230[14:32:58] *** Quits: chet (~chet@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1231[14:33:05] <openbsdtai123> I tried about a year ago and 6 months ago, and the kernel failed iwth video intel.
1232[14:33:26] <petn-randall> openbsdtai123: You can remove the 'quiet' option from grub and see what error you get during boot.
1233[14:34:15] <openbsdtai123> it is 5.3 non working, I have a 4.9 working kernel.
1236[14:35:05] <openbsdtai123> the pc is a asus r206, a sort of eee
1237[14:35:56] <petn-randall> openbsdtai123: As I said, if you remove the quiet option from grub, you should see an error during boot which you can share with us.
1238[14:36:31] <openbsdtai123> furtheromre, the testing debian installer did not update the Grub (on the mbr).... :(
1240[14:37:10] <openbsdtai123> there is no grub.cfg changed that happened by default install :(
1241[14:37:20] <openbsdtai123> I will let you know with non quiet
1242[14:37:38] <petn-randall> !testing installer
1243[14:37:38] <dpkg> Repeat after me: the testing installer is for testing the <installer>, not for installing <testing>. To install testing, do a minimal installation using the <stable> installer and ask me about <stable->testing>. Installer bugs should be filed against the debian-installer pseudopackage. replaced-url
1244[14:38:02] <openbsdtai123> well, the testing installer does the same behavior as the stable, i might be wrong.
1246[14:38:07] <openbsdtai123> I tried stable last time.
1247[14:38:22] <B|ack0p> is there usefull app to see disk user analyse?
1248[14:38:25] <petn-randall> openbsdtai123: ^^^ given that the testing installer is of alpha quality, this doesn't surprise me. Though I installed testing fine with the testing installer just two weeks ago.
1249[14:38:27] <B|ack0p> like in gnome or ubuntu
1250[14:38:33] <B|ack0p> disk user analyser
1251[14:38:48] <openbsdtai123> it seems that the boot with networking of debian testing takes ages...
1252[14:38:49] <petn-randall> B|ack0p: If it's packaged for Ubuntu, it's likely also packaged for Debian.
1253[14:39:08] <petn-randall> openbsdtai123: Let's analyze one problem at a time, please.
1254[14:39:13] <openbsdtai123> ahh I removed quiet, but I get black screen.
1255[14:39:26] <openbsdtai123> So I cannot tell what s going on with the default debian testnig.
1256[14:39:37] <B|ack0p> i wish i knew the name of the package
1257[14:40:00] <openbsdtai123> petn-randall: usually, testing worked at least. ... :(
1297[14:49:25] <petn-randall> openbsdtai123: If you want to try stable, you get support in here, on testing you get support on the other channel. You just have to pick one and then go to the right channel.
1298[14:50:08] <openbsdtai123> Ok, i will install stable to prove it to you ... Here we go, let's get stable iso .
1299[14:50:37] <openbsdtai123> give me 5 min...
1300[14:51:01] <pingfloyd> got all the time in the world. IRC never closes.
1302[14:51:35] <Jmabsd> what arguments should i give "cryptsetup" inside "busybox" (simple boot shell) to unlock my system disk?
1303[14:52:23] <Jmabsd> i basically want it to do the whole standard automatic unlock that it does on boot normally. in this case i think i typed in things 9 times and for this reason boot failed to busybox.
1304[14:52:32] <pingfloyd> cryptsetup luksOpen /dev/sdXY name
1305[14:52:39] <pingfloyd> assuming you're using luks
1306[14:52:41] <Jmabsd> cool. what should "name" be?
1307[14:52:46] <Jmabsd> i guess..
1308[14:52:54] <pingfloyd> whatever you want to name the mapped device
1309[14:52:57] <openbsdtai123> I am download iso cd debian 10.2.0 i386 netinst.iso , is this the default stable debian `???
1314[14:53:24] <pingfloyd> if you gave the name mycrypt
1315[14:54:12] <pingfloyd> but if you have lines like /dev/mapper/<name> inside say your /etc/fstab, it might be more convenient to use that name instead
1332[14:59:52] <dpkg> amd64 is the Debian architecture optimized for x86-64, aka AMD64. Intel Core 2, Core i3/i5/i7 and Xeon (since 2004) systems are x86-64. The AMD64 architecture also supports running Debian i386 with either a -686-pae or -amd64 kernel. See also <why amd64> and <why not amd64>.
1333[15:00:03] <petn-randall> why amd64
1334[15:00:07] <petn-randall> !why amd64
1335[15:00:07] <dpkg> The Debian architecture that runs on 64-bit processors from AMD and Intel is called "amd64" because the architecture was first developed by AMD. AMD64 is variously known as x86-64, x64, IA-32e, EM64T and Intel 64 (most of which are the Intel marketing people changing their mind). replaced-url
1388[15:35:49] <Bushmaster> is it possible to transfer some of my files from one of my computers to another computer's external hard drive (external hard drive is attached to that computer via USB port of course)
1389[15:37:05] <openbsdtai123> mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt ; cp -a XXXX /mnt/ ; umount /mnt
1406[15:41:17] <marduk> Bushmaster: if both computers connected to same local network and ftpd is configured on one side at least you can do it
1407[15:41:24] <Bushmaster> marduk, can you help me, all it is, I have files I need to transfer to my other machine which is actually running Apache server, the other machine is USB ported with external hard drive where all my files are located and apache serve them via netowrk both locall and externally, i want to transfer my files that i have in my Debian desktop into that hard drive without disconnecting that hard drive and connect it to my debian desktop, basically
1408[15:41:25] <Bushmaster> via network
1409[15:42:03] <Bushmaster> both computers are connected to modem yes and both computers run Apache
1410[15:42:38] <Bushmaster> BazookaTooth, do you know how to do it
1411[15:42:38] <openbsdtai123> next, i boot with ext pendrive ... let s see your stable kernel...
1412[15:43:00] <Bushmaster> basically transferring file to other machine via network
1414[15:44:23] <marduk> Bushmaster: you should have mc on one side at least and ftpd on other then mc have option ftp link you connect with your remote username and password and thats all you can transfer files
1415[15:45:26] <Bushmaster> marduk, sounds good, I kind of grasp the underlying mechanism but I need to go one step at a time, can you take me through the steps
1422[15:47:53] <Bushmaster> yes I am utilizing rasp pi to access all my media (over thousands movies) from that notebook computer that runs Apache of course media are in external hard drive but Apache access it from there, what I did in Librelec Kodi is simply plugged in my local IP address and all media showed up
1423[15:48:01] <openbsdtai123> it is not black screen under stable ;)
1424[15:48:03] <openbsdtai123> cool !!
1425[15:48:20] <B|ack0p> actually it is black under stable :p
1426[15:48:41] <B|ack0p> i mean stable debian 10 :p
1427[15:49:41] *** Quits: co_dws_ (~co_aja@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1428[15:50:07] <openbsdtai123> I install xinit xterm ctwm cube2 xdemineur menu ; note xfreecell is missing ;) could you add it?
1429[15:50:08] <Bushmaster> marduk, if you could help me, i would greatly appreciate
1433[15:50:54] <marduk> Bushmaster: install vsftpd on one side
1434[15:51:17] <Jmabsd> I did the Debian system upgrade (sid to latest, something like this), then rebooted - worked. Now did "dpkg-reconfigure console-setup", it worked. Then rebooted. Now at the Linux kernel startup process' framebuffer enablement step, the screen just goes blank. What do?
1435[15:51:24] <openbsdtai123> Bushmaster: I can help you if you would write me in ps. I recommend to do over SCP the things. I havent read in details, ebcause i cook and install cube2
1436[15:51:34] *** Quits: Malivaso (~Malivaso@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1437[15:51:42] <openbsdtai123> petn-randall: stable seems to work better !! thank you
1438[15:51:53] <openbsdtai123> petn-randall: I noticed that grub-install does not update grub.
1439[15:52:08] <openbsdtai123> So far your kernel is ok of stabble amd64 4.19
1440[15:52:09] *** Quits: psilonux (~psilonux@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1441[15:52:21] *** Quits: Night-Shade (~TimF@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1444[15:53:33] <Bushmaster> openbsdtai123, marduk is providing solicitation, let me go ahead with marduk and you can supplement as we consult, if things go wrong, I sure will consult you I also seeking to gather all like minded people under the rubric of one umbrella and i have list of nicks I want to propose to spearhead ...
1445[15:53:51] <marduk> Busmaster: then service vsftpd start
1446[15:54:17] <Bushmaster> marduk, that package you mention, you want me to install in my Debian desktop in which I am holding the files that I intend to transfer to my other computer remotely?
1447[15:54:19] <openbsdtai123> why not to send data over SCP ?
1448[15:55:12] <marduk> Bushmaster: better if you install this on the side there you want to download from
1449[15:55:52] <Bushmaster> i also want to emphasis one simple point, although I am not mentally handicap, I do have certain limitation to utilize the full potential of Linux, in other words I can apply process here but not fully versed in system adminstration
1451[15:56:51] <Bushmaster> okay marduk so install it in Debian where I download my media and plan on transferring the media into Apache notebook server right?
1452[15:57:04] <Bushmaster> the Apace notebook runs in Mint
1453[15:57:05] <openbsdtai123> gftp ?
1454[15:57:36] <nvz> Bushmaster: well, here's a lesson for you.. Mint is not Debian :P
1456[15:58:46] <nvz> Bushmaster: and if this is all on your LAN any ssh based method is overkill there is minidlna and samba
1457[15:59:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1441
1458[15:59:05] <openbsdtai123> Run debian rather than Mint. Debian is quite common, you'll learn debian. Mint is cool too of course, but things are different.
1461[15:59:33] <openbsdtai123> do you mean that FTP is faster than SCP ???
1462[15:59:39] <nvz> I personally run ssh, minidlna, and samba on my server
1463[15:59:56] <nvz> I am sayign if the point is to access media, you want a media friendly setup
1464[16:00:20] <nvz> I for example set mine up so windows, linux, android, etc.. can all access it
1465[16:00:43] <nvz> you're gonna have a harder time on the client side if you use any ftp or ssh method.. its simpler to just DLNA or Samba
1466[16:00:46] *** Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
1467[16:00:46] <nvz> or both
1468[16:01:18] <Bushmaster> openbsdtai123, marduk nvz I cannot digest too much information at a time... my brain is defective ... however, MINT IS THERE TO RUN MY APACHE SERVER INTO THAT OLD NOTEBOOK AND I WILL NOT CHANGE IT NOW
1469[16:01:26] <openbsdtai123> what is DLNA ??? new proto
1470[16:01:49] <nvz> its a media protocol developed I believe by apple for itunes
1471[16:02:04] <nvz> everything that does media supports it.. PS3, PS4, Xbox, android, Kodi, you name it
1472[16:02:09] <openbsdtai123> this is complete junk then for Unix
1473[16:02:18] <openbsdtai123> unix uses ftp and ssh
1474[16:02:21] <marduk> Bushmaster:if you did this then you can can connect using mc from other side and copy your files as you copy frome one folder to another
1475[16:02:30] <nvz> we're not talking about unix, we're talking about media
1476[16:02:51] <nvz> and minidlna is incredibly small, lightweight, and simple to configure on both ends its UPNP
1477[16:03:00] <openbsdtai123> you cannot recommend the guy to use APPLE crap onto an Unix-like system. this is heresy
1478[16:03:21] <Night_Elf> Actually havng this dlna implemented seems like a lot of fun
1479[16:03:36] <Bushmaster> marduk, okay, so you want me to install vstpd in my Debian desktop and telling me you can take me through the process to transfer a file from Debian desktop to my Mint running Apache Running old notebook ?
1480[16:03:37] <nvz> you are totally missing the point this user is confessing not being a server admin, and they dont even know the difference between mint and debian
1481[16:04:14] <nvz> Bushmaster: what does Apache have to do with any of this? Apache is a Web Server
1482[16:04:15] <openbsdtai123> you are recommending almost non opensource software? It cannot be, debian is opensource.
1488[16:04:32] <marduk> Bushmaster: Apache is no sense
1489[16:04:41] <openbsdtai123> apple yes
1490[16:04:46] <nvz> there are a bunch of DLNA things in debian, its not closed source..
1491[16:04:57] <nvz> it was developed FOR itunes, its not itunes
1492[16:05:01] <Bushmaster> I have never used Apple computer in my life, I used MS DOS back in early 90s and then windows for few and then boycott windows cos of their labor ethics which I do not agree and got into open source
1494[16:05:24] <nvz> the point I am only going to re-iterate one last time.. is that DLNA is FOR MEDIA and ALL MEDIA PLAYERS already support it
1495[16:06:06] <Bushmaster> so marduk my friend, can we go ahead one step at a time
1496[16:06:09] <nvz> they not only already support it but they AUTOMATICALLY configure it.. cause its UPNP
1497[16:06:13] <openbsdtai123> sorry but this is apple, here you are at #debian not #apple
1498[16:06:24] <openbsdtai123> you should advocate FTP . point .. or samba rather.
1499[16:06:42] <openbsdtai123> FTP is everywhere. it is this years 50 years old proto.
1500[16:06:44] <nvz> openbsdtai123: you are just being incredibly dense.. we support UEFI here, its made by microsoft
1501[16:06:47] <openbsdtai123> Android have FTP applications.
1502[16:06:52] <marduk> Bushmaster: there is nothing difficult to simply install vsftpd package on side where is your files, then start service and connect from other side with mc
1503[16:06:56] <nvz> I could give you countless other examples
1504[16:07:04] <nvz> this isn't about purism, its about simplicity
1505[16:07:26] <Bushmaster> what is mc? marduk
1506[16:07:32] <nvz> you're expecting a user who has confessed not knowing what they're doing to learn complicated protocols and client setups
1507[16:07:38] <Night_Elf> Bushmaster: did you try to use scp, as indicated a bit earlier ?
1508[16:07:46] <nvz> I'm gonna wander off now, you guys have fun confusing this user
1509[16:08:25] <Bushmaster> Night_Elf, the problem at the moment I am having is too many good solicitations but not sure which one I should follow
1510[16:08:28] <marduk> Bushmaster: mc is midnight commander it is file manager, you can install it sudo apt install mc
1512[16:08:33] <openbsdtai123> simplicity means to go use apple. No, there are respectful ideas behind debian and opensource. people worked on it before you.
1515[16:09:52] <Bushmaster> marduk, if you kindly help me through the process from cradle to grave, I will appreciate, hence first step, in my Debian, you want me to install vsftpd
1516[16:09:56] <Night_Elf> Bushmaster: The scp is probably the easiest. Imagine it like a 'cp' that can copy from one host, to another in the network. All you need is to have sshd installed in the remote machine. And of course, the credentials of the user there.
1517[16:10:50] <Bushmaster> Night_Elf, let me carry out marduk advice and if I find it hard, I will get to you
1519[16:11:05] <Night_Elf> The file ownwership that will be copied on the remote machine, will be the one that you will use of the user that you will specify in the process.
1520[16:11:13] <Bushmaster> okay marduk I am gonna do it now
1555[16:22:48] <nvz> you're always gonna be unsure what to do next when you're using vastly overly complicated application stacks for what your needs are
1558[16:23:35] <Bushmaster> marduk, i dont see anything called left, its a blue screen , at the very top I have File, Edit, Search, Help and below that and after pressing F9, it popped File, Edit, Search, Command etc as mentioned above, at the bottom it has Help, Save, Mark, Replace etc, sounds intimidating
1559[16:23:36] <joepublic> even novice computer users can learn just the features of their particular workflow.
1560[16:23:48] <nvz> more background was required before proper advise could be given, but at least my spitball idea was zeroconf and upnp
1562[16:24:51] *** Quits: f4bi0 (~f4bi0@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1563[16:24:56] <Night_Elf> mc should look like that
1564[16:25:09] <nvz> I still don't see what apache has to do with all this.. near as I can tell the question was about media.. and if you want media over http, there are far simpler approaches to that as well
1568[16:26:12] <nvz> Bushmaster: can you back up and explain what your goal is and what apache has to do with this?
1569[16:26:26] <nvz> Bushmaster: apache is a very bloated and complicated web server.. that you probably do not need
1570[16:26:49] <Night_Elf> Bushmaster: What marduk is saying, that basically, you install a ftp server at the remote machine, and then use mc as a ftp client on the local machine, to transfer files
1576[16:27:51] <Bushmaster> okay nvz I have a old notebook machine which I have converted as Media Server basically meaning it has Apache installed, it is connected to a USB ported SATA Dock Hard Drive which holds most of my media (movies, etc) and Apache serve it to my large TV via Rasp Pi Librelelect Kodi in which I declared my IP address
1577[16:27:55] <nvz> sounds like this is all on a LAN and the resting place of the files is on a pi being used as a NAS.. transferring files just to use them is pointless
1582[16:28:29] <Bushmaster> now, for me to continue the server, I need to add stuffs and i want to add stuffs without disconnecting that hard drive and put it in Debian machine where I have my media
1586[16:29:09] <nvz> Bushmaster: you can literally just mount that sever location on debian and use it like a regular local directory
1587[16:29:15] <Bushmaster> marduk, I do not see anything called left in that screen and I am getting bit tired cos many peopke directing many advice
1588[16:29:35] <nvz> Bushmaster: sshfs or nfs would be drastically simpler but neither is required if you use a Desktop Environment with a GUI filemanager
1589[16:29:36] <joepublic> Bushmaster, nvz is giving the best advice imo
1590[16:29:58] <Night_Elf> Bushmaster: well, apache is a webserver. It CAN serve media, like what you download from a website that has a, say, file.mp4 there in some link. But in itself, apache is not a media server.
1591[16:29:58] <Bushmaster> right okay i will go with nvz
1592[16:29:59] <nvz> I for example use MATE, and MATE's file manager, caja has all this built in already
1593[16:30:20] <nvz> you need only go to File>Connect To Server in caja
1595[16:30:53] <Bushmaster> so can nvz take me through the steps one at a time
1596[16:31:03] <nvz> Bushmaster: what are you running on the client side?
1597[16:31:10] <Bushmaster> marduk, tried and now i am in the middle of some blue screen in mc which means nothing
1598[16:31:23] <nvz> Bushmaster: in the debian box are you just using GNOME?
1599[16:31:28] *** Quits: janik (~jrabe@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1600[16:31:40] <Bushmaster> well if client means where media files is in my Debian and i want to transfer it to notebook, then I am running Debian
1601[16:31:55] <marduk> you can even open your web browser and type your addres ftp://username@ip
1602[16:31:59] <Bushmaster> yes GNOme I think nvz
1603[16:32:16] <nvz> dpkg, which de
1604[16:32:16] <dpkg> To figure out which Desktop Environment you are using, open a terminal and type the following command: `echo $XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP` see also <which dm> <which x>.
1605[16:32:30] <nvz> Bushmaster: try that command to be certain
1608[16:33:07] <nvz> if its gnome then you already have nautilus, which has capability for ftp, sftp, samba, webdav, etc all built in
1609[16:33:10] <Bushmaster> marduk, do not take it wrong, but your advice has not really solved my issue, its stuck in the middle of something and I do not see any left or anything and other people advising me other stuffs hence getting more cofused
1610[16:33:26] <marduk> Bushmaster: open your web browser and type ftp://username@ip
1611[16:33:33] <Night_Elf> marduk: I suspect for some reason, there's something wrong with his mc
1612[16:33:49] <Bushmaster> marduk, which IP?
1613[16:34:24] <marduk> Bushmaster username for your debian machine and ip of your debian machine
1629[16:35:52] <nvz> they probably already have software to do this that they already know how to use
1630[16:36:25] <nvz> if I could get a clear picture of whats going on, I could've made a damn screencast by now
1631[16:36:25] <marduk> Bushmaster: now you should be prompted for password, and then it will show your files
1632[16:37:44] <Bushmaster> marduk, its not coming up with anything, instead its carry on trying to locate that page
1633[16:38:17] <nvz> Bushmaster: this is not going to do what you want anyhow.. you want to SEND files to the server.. this will only let you GET files
1634[16:38:51] <Bushmaster> nvz, that marduk just wasted lot of my energy
1635[16:39:01] <Bushmaster> marduk, leave it dude i will go ahead with others advice
1636[16:39:16] <nvz> Bushmaster: I am making a screencast of accessing my server both in MATE and in GNOME
1637[16:39:47] <marduk> Bushmaster: you just type ftp://username@ip thats all\
1638[16:39:53] <Bushmaster> nvz, you sound confident what you doing, if you can help me as I am not fluent in these, i will appreciate it
1668[16:51:00] *** Quits: fflori (~fflori@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1669[16:51:11] <nvz> Bushmaster: now my server the ssh is running on a non-standard port so I changed the port number when I set it up.. you wouldnt have to do that
1671[16:52:04] *** Quits: bart2020 (~bart2020@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1672[16:52:12] <nvz> Bushmaster: you probably already have ssh on the server, but if you dont all you'd have to do is install that, the client side you already have what you need
1769[17:44:23] <Bushmaster> nvz, that dude just wasted me tie
1770[17:44:28] <Bushmaster> time nvz
1771[17:44:45] <marduk> :D
1772[17:45:11] <Bushmaster> well ssh is installed in mint server yes but it comes with sh*it massage nvz let me see i can send you private from that machine in IRC
1773[17:45:22] <Devastator> if I use a livecd to download and flash a firmware to a device, where it stores the download?
1774[17:45:46] <Bushmaster> have you received a hello from me nvz in private
1783[17:48:04] <Bushmaster> nvz, did you receive my private hello from mint machine
1784[17:48:11] <nvz> Bushmaster: yes and I responded
1785[17:49:21] <jhutchins> Bushmaster: We prefer to do our troubleshooting here in the channel so that anyone can contribute and correct errors, but you are in the wrong channel.
1786[17:49:26] <jhutchins> Bushmaster: We do not support mint.
1832[18:20:00] <Jmabsd> how do you debug when Debian, upgraded two reboots ago and just did console settings to set console font, dies at the kernel's switch to framebuffer console, at boot?
1834[18:21:43] <openbsdtai123> nvz: who is the mod of this channel? Do you agree if Bushmaster is out of the channel #debian for violences ("insult to someone")?
1839[18:23:11] <nvz> openbsdtai123: you're speaking to a nearly 20 year user and supporter of debian.. and I think you're the one being an arse if you must know
1840[18:23:45] <joepublic> you might say something like: !ops openbsdtai123 attacking another user
1852[18:25:19] <joepublic> I mean the ops can take care of their own channel, and if he insults you somewhere else, such in private message, the way to deal with it is not to go attack him in a channel.
1857[18:27:03] *** RandolfR is now known as Randolf
1858[18:27:57] <marduk> some people just verry hard to help, but this is no reason to ban
1859[18:27:59] <Jmabsd> can i force legacy 80x25 console somehow? (booting to the older kernel works)
1860[18:28:00] <joepublic> in the channel, my experience is that they get many lenient warnings and some eventually are removed. How do I deal with someone being mean to someone else somewhere else, where I am not? The answer is, I am not involved.
1861[18:28:10] <Jmabsd> joepublic: boot doesn't go so far ..
1862[18:28:15] <openbsdtai123> I have helped in a very clean way the person, with top quality answers and suppport.
1863[18:28:28] <joepublic> openbsdtai123, well, you're kind of being a jerk in here.
1864[18:28:35] <ratrace> agreed
1865[18:28:46] <nkuttler> openbsdtai123: nobody is intersted in your drama, please contact the ops about it
1866[18:29:56] <joepublic> it might make you feel better to pastebin the exchange, if the other user involved were to agree, such that anyone who is interested could go read it and others could just ignore it. How's that?
1889[18:36:42] <Bushmaster> joepublic, marduk nkuttler ratrace that dude openbsdtai123 poses some psychological issue, she (I would say its she) could seek help from shrink ...
1938[18:57:50] <Jmabsd> just curious, using which command do you ascertain that your Debian install is the very latest one? e.g., check in /etc/apt/sources.list that you're using the latest version (now: buster), and then do aptitude upgrade; aptitude update to ensure all latest updates have been installed??
1942[19:01:33] <rudi_s> Jmabsd: You have to manually check that /etc/apt/sources.list lists the latest Debian release, then apt update; apt upgrade will tell you if there are any pending updates.
1943[19:01:48] <Jmabsd> umm, which is the web site which says which is the latest stable version of Debian.. wikipedia?? err
1957[19:06:30] <RazWelles> How do I go about learning where dpkg puts everything and what files and folders it uses? I've had it break a few times on me and I want to learn how to clean it up manually rather than wipe my system and start over
1958[19:06:43] <RazWelles> (a very bad approach I know)
1959[19:07:07] <rudi_s> Jmabsd: Do you want to automate this? Why?
1960[19:07:32] <Jmabsd> rudi_s: no, just thought it's a bit comical there's no page on debian.org that says it
1961[19:09:28] <rudi_s> Jmabsd: Yeah, it's not really said .. -> "Getting Debian" and look at the installer links is one possibility.
1971[19:12:24] *** Quits: hemimaniac (~hemimania@replaced-ip) (Quit: Gotta go, Wife voluntold me to do something)
1972[19:13:03] <joepublic> seems like the name could be a little more prominent. like a box on the front page with "Current stable version: 10.x 'Buster'"
2000[19:23:32] <Jmabsd> which of "aptitude" and "apt" do you prefer, why?
2001[19:23:59] <Jmabsd> should "aptitude upgrade" here be preceded by "aptitude update", it should shouldn't it?
2002[19:24:15] <joepublic> It should, yes. I prefer apt; I only use aptitude when I have a dependency problem because aptitude can give you multiple solutions.
2003[19:24:47] <marduk> safe-upgrade? full-upgrade? I know only dist-upgrade what is the difference?
2024[19:30:15] <joepublic> apt is recommended over aptitude.
2025[19:30:19] <Jmabsd> so why not just use it ??
2026[19:30:20] <Jmabsd> why?
2027[19:30:28] <joepublic> you can use it if you want.
2028[19:30:31] <joze> I dislike installing with aptitude, maybe I am clumsy
2029[19:30:43] <jhutchins> !why aptitude
2030[19:30:43] <dpkg> aptitude has more advanced conflict/dependency resolution and will often find a solution where apt-get gives up. It can be used from the command line like apt-get plus an interactive resolver makes it much easier to recover from broken dependencies. It has advanced search capabilities (see <aptitude search>). For some upgrades, apt-get is preferred (e.g. <lenny->squeeze>, <squeeze->wheezy>). replaced-url
2031[19:30:50] <joepublic> apt is designed to be friendlier, prettier, simpler, etc.
2032[19:31:06] <jhutchins> joepublic: Not recommended for scripting though.
2033[19:31:15] <Jmabsd> and "apt-get"??
2034[19:31:20] <SerajewelKS> apt is nano. aptitude is vim.
2035[19:31:24] <Jmabsd> "apt-get" is just a subcommand of "apt"?
2036[19:31:29] <joepublic> And read the release notes first, replaced-url
2037[19:31:53] <joepublic> apt-get is not part of apt, they are two tools (toolsets) that accomplish the same job.
2038[19:32:45] <Jmabsd> sigh, aha.
2039[19:32:51] <Jmabsd> so there's *three*.
2040[19:32:53] <joepublic> apt-get is older than aptitude, aptitude is older than apt, I believe
2041[19:33:09] <joepublic> at least three, yeah. use apt.
2042[19:33:13] <lupine> apt is best
2043[19:33:16] <SerajewelKS> apt is a reimplementation of many of the apt-* commands into a single command. e.g. apt-get and apt-cache, and others.
2044[19:33:18] <lupine> not least because it is shortest to type
2053[19:34:25] <SerajewelKS> i've had some cases where apt can't do something, and others where it's easier in aptitude. mostly i still use apt-get because nobody has given me a compelling reason why apt is actually better other than it's simpler to use and has a green progressbar, none of which is important to me.
2054[19:34:34] <marduk> I always used apt-get, then I somehow thought that apt is just shortened version of it so you type not apt-get update but apt update... I was so wrong
2055[19:34:50] <joepublic> apt update tells me how many updates are pending and apt-get update doesn't.
2059[19:35:43] <joepublic> if apt or apt-get are doing the job, you never need to use aptitude
2060[19:36:07] <Jmabsd> lol.
2061[19:36:12] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: aptitude has an ncurses UI that can be very helpful for more advanced use cases, like resolving complicated dependency issues
2062[19:36:19] <openbsdtai123> yeah... well, the common habit is to learn graphical modes and usage, inherit of Other closed source OSes....
2063[19:36:37] <joepublic> openbsdtai123, I present to you... synaptic
2064[19:36:49] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: "dpkg-reconfigure -a "
2065[19:37:18] <openbsdtai123> Isnt synaptic outsdated today, Ubuntu has the google play store like?
2073[19:38:29] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: resolving dependency issues and package configuration are two separate things
2074[19:38:47] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: I guess with apt-get / dpkg* you can basically install well the machine and also make fixes.
2075[19:38:58] <Jmabsd> guys seriously "virsh list" will take its "connect" argument from *where*??
2076[19:39:03] <joepublic> aptitude can fix some really broken things in the hands of an experienced system administrator. note that important last part.
2077[19:39:05] <Jmabsd> does it store the last connect argument in some file, or what
2078[19:39:09] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: right. but some dependency issues are much easier to resolve in aptitude (i've used it on several occasions for this purpose).
2079[19:39:25] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: sure you could manually trudge through it with apt-get. you could also program in assembly instead of C.
2080[19:39:28] <Jmabsd> SerajewelKS: dpkg-reconfigure -a is for what?
2082[19:39:38] <SerajewelKS> Jmabsd: openbsdtai123 brought it up, not me
2083[19:39:45] <openbsdtai123> ah ... I never got sthing broken. I use the bare minimum : twm + xinit + xterm + clang ;)
2084[19:39:58] <joepublic> Jmabsd, if you need to dpkg-reconfigure -a, then one of the apt* tools will tell you.
2085[19:40:07] <Jmabsd> ah.
2086[19:40:25] <Jmabsd> it's like, "go through any specifying settings stuff that is pending"?
2087[19:40:37] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: nvidia drivers in particularly are very good at breaking apt-get's dependency resolution because there's so many conflicts, virtual packages, alternation dependencies, etc.
2088[19:40:42] <joepublic> yes, that's a pretty good description
2089[19:40:45] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: re-programming apt-get, good luck, today apt-get is a big, complex machinery.
2095[19:42:38] <joepublic> that was an example of a different, unrelated choice one might make
2096[19:42:44] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: the context of that quote was rebutting you claiming that aptitude is not necessary because we have apt-get. i said that's like claiming assembly is not necessary because we have C.
2097[19:42:58] <SerajewelKS> erm, C is not necessary because we have assembly
2098[19:43:05] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: ah ok.
2099[19:43:06] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2100[19:43:18] <SerajewelKS> in specific situations, aptitude makes things much easier than apt-get. that's my point.
2101[19:43:44] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: I never used aptitude, I can't tell.
2108[19:44:27] <SerajewelKS> i use it occasionally when i need to install multiple packages but i don't know the exact names ahead of time. i could search each one and build up an apt-get command using two terminal windows. or i could open aptitude and search a few times, marking what i want.
2109[19:44:28] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: I have limited usage of debian for games and C programming (low end). Quite low end.
2115[19:46:01] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: if i want to install five things but don't know the exact package names, i could do that and install them one by one. or open two terminal windows and use one to search and the other to build an apt-get line. or i could just open aptitude and do it all at once.
2116[19:46:02] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: (the fixing things, ... advantages...) ok. I will get try it for you once.
2119[19:46:43] <SerajewelKS> you can use what you want :)
2120[19:46:54] *** Quits: holden- (~holden-@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2121[19:46:57] <openbsdtai123> I see now your usage .... I understand your needs.
2122[19:47:23] <SerajewelKS> it's just another handy tool to have. other tools can do the same thing. some things are easier with apt-get. others are easier with aptitude.
2123[19:47:38] <SerajewelKS> they can all do pretty much the same stuff, just with varying degrees of difficulty
2124[19:48:07] <openbsdtai123> It seems like. It seems that aptitude suits well your demands and needs. That's cool to hear.
2125[19:48:29] <SerajewelKS> it does but i still usually use apt-get. i use aptitude for particular scenarios only. i do not use it for system upgrades.
2126[19:48:32] <openbsdtai123> What about the novell Ubuntu package manager? Would it suit you also?
2127[19:48:50] <SerajewelKS> i don't know what that is
2128[19:49:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1439
2129[19:49:28] <openbsdtai123> SerajewelKS: Not necessary... Debian is better ... ;=)
2130[19:49:36] <SerajewelKS> indeed
2131[19:50:07] <openbsdtai123> I tried last time to compile FLTK on Ubuntu, there are missing libs... I don't know what they do with they libs.
2201[20:22:49] <SerajewelKS> unless you're running it so that some random programs can pretend that remote files are local, there's usually a better way than sshfs
2202[20:22:53] <openbsdtai123> scp is the most solid (unix / linux way) for file transfert.
2208[20:24:03] <SerajewelKS> marduk: the only real advantage FTP has is that it's not encrypted so there is no overhead. however, this means it can't be used safely over a WAN without adding TLS anyway.
2209[20:24:37] <SerajewelKS> marduk: scp works using sshd which you already have. authentication is built-in to the SSH protocol. you don't have to install a separate FTP server and work out authentication / user mapping.
2210[20:24:53] <openbsdtai123> I love FTP actually with ncftp, when proftpd or other is not installed.
2211[20:25:10] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: conta)
2217[20:28:51] <SerajewelKS> i'm not saying it's hard to do. i'm saying if your goal is to transfer files between two debian systems, it's unnecessary.
2218[20:28:58] <SerajewelKS> both systems will have scp and sshd by default.
2235[20:32:56] <nvz> SerajewelKS: this is the same user that misdirected a newbie on such things earlier and I wound up just getting them to use nautilus to access their server over sftp/ssh with drag/drop using crap they already had installed
2236[20:33:15] <openbsdtai123> the advantage of SSH is the good CPU usage, pretty efficiency and not heavy for the machine.
2237[20:33:21] <SerajewelKS> nvz: nice. sorry i missed that. :)
2238[20:33:42] <SerajewelKS> openbsdtai123: ssh is heavier than ftp on CPU usage because of encryption. but it's still a better option for many reasons.
2239[20:33:44] <marduk> you can also use curl but....
2240[20:33:52] <nvz> openbsdtai123: the key difference is security, but yes it also has good compression and such and with modern cpus it has little overhead
2246[20:34:58] <openbsdtai123> nvz: actually, the question is interesting... we haven't much more habits than ftp, samba, ssh/scp, nfs... there are maybe more opensource, free, methods (as well compatible with Unix/BSD systems).
2250[20:35:45] <SerajewelKS> nvz: a big difference for me is that it's already there on pretty much every *nix system around (that i care about anyway)
2251[20:35:54] <nvz> openbsdtai123: nobody with any sense uses ftp anymore.. as the factoid above points out debian stopped using ftp for packages even over 2 years ago
2252[20:35:57] <joze> I can use the ftp protocol with my teeth fillings overe the air ;_;
2256[20:36:52] <openbsdtai123> SSH is good security, -C -X -Y ... bunch of possibilities, reverse ssh for workaround, ... tunnel, lot of toys.
2257[20:37:03] <nyov> I just had my first new-year revelation! Don't "wget keys.asc | sudo apt-key add -"!! Just "cp keys.asc /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/myrepokeys.asc" and they're much easier to clean up again.
2258[20:37:19] <nyov> also. ftp must die. :p
2259[20:37:42] <openbsdtai123> nyov: ftp must not die. will not die. it is this year 50 years old
2260[20:37:46] <ryouma> um, shouldn't you vberify those keys or something first?
2261[20:37:46] <nyov> but it's still better than smb ithink
2262[20:38:01] <nyov> ryouma: most definitely :)
2263[20:38:21] <Jmabsd> oh dear, I see now that in my dmesg, actually the amdgpu driver *crashes* on boot
2264[20:38:38] <Jmabsd> this is likely the reason for why my amdgpu framebuffer will not launch :-}
2265[20:38:41] <SerajewelKS> smb at least still has a use when you need to support windows clients natively
2266[20:38:50] <SerajewelKS> there's few cases i can think where ftp is useful
2267[20:39:18] <openbsdtai123> Jmabsd: is it on testing or stable (tested debian)?
2268[20:39:29] <nyov> openbsdtai123: the idiosyncracy of binary and ASCII file transfer modes is really ugly as crap
2269[20:39:30] <Jmabsd> stable
2270[20:39:45] <Jmabsd> buster, upgraded from what's the name sid or something
2271[20:39:51] <marduk> nvz: how you do transfer files over lan
2272[20:39:56] <SerajewelKS> Jmabsd: stretch?
2273[20:40:02] <SerajewelKS> Jmabsd: sid is unstable, you cannot "upgrade" from sid
2281[20:41:53] <SerajewelKS> marduk: this depends on the OS used on both ends
2282[20:42:02] <ryouma> another toold besides sshfs, scp, and rsync, if you find those nonperspicuous, is to directly use a transfer protocol in your editor. this can include shell mode, a git interface, etc.
2288[20:42:52] <openbsdtai123> what about the debian extra repositories for some better kernels?
2289[20:43:14] <Jmabsd> maybe i should just keep to 4.9.0-11 as at least it worked??
2290[20:43:34] <openbsdtai123> 4.19 is likely quite old, I have not amdgpu I cannot say, I heard it needs more time.
2291[20:43:38] <bzed> openbsdtai123: "better"....
2292[20:43:54] <bzed> openbsdtai123: you could use the kernel from backports if you really need something new
2293[20:44:01] <openbsdtai123> yeah backports !!
2294[20:44:12] <nvz> marduk: I don't often.. I more often transfer over the internet.. but on my server I have samba for local stuff, but I usually use scp/sftp regardless of if its LAN or over the net
2295[20:44:12] <Jmabsd> Is there any reason to use 4.19??
2296[20:44:22] <Jmabsd> oh
2297[20:44:34] <openbsdtai123> 4.19 is good, very good, check backports, it is likely helping
2298[20:44:34] <bzed> Jmabsd: 4.19 is in buster. thats it.
2299[20:44:40] <SerajewelKS> marduk: scp or rsync then. if you're using a GUI, your desktop environment's file browser probably supports scp with drag-and-drop.
2300[20:45:06] <Jmabsd> bzed,openbsdtai123: so i should get "buster-backports" and then see which kernel versions are there?
2301[20:45:07] <openbsdtai123> The software GFTP is good for newbies
2302[20:45:09] <Jmabsd> maybe some newer?
2303[20:45:19] <marduk> SerajewelKS: I personaily on cli
2304[20:45:20] <bzed> Jmabsd: yeah, there is 5.something
2315[20:48:01] <marduk> SerajewelKS: ok, I used scp before but came to ftp
2316[20:48:05] <SerajewelKS> marduk: rsync is more powerful and has more options. therefore it's also a bit more daunting to learn. generally, you at least want to provide -a to rsync.
2317[20:48:09] <ratrace> Jmabsd: I think the better question is, is there any reason to (abandon stable and) use a newer (and non-LTS) kernel.
2318[20:48:26] <ratrace> Unless you really need a feature from newer kernels, I'd stick with Stable ones
2319[20:48:40] <SerajewelKS> marduk: switching from scp to ftp is a step backwards. if you already know how to use scp then just use scp. you do not gain anything with ftp, and you lose much.
2320[20:48:42] <Jmabsd> ratrace: well, the AMDGPU console is *broken* on 4.19
2321[20:48:45] <Jmabsd> i can use 4.9, shall i?
2322[20:49:06] <ratrace> on buster? no, that'd be a downgrade and abandoning stable again
2323[20:49:21] <Jmabsd> ratrace: the only way then is, use 4.19 with the proprietary amdgpu drivers
2324[20:49:31] <Jmabsd> ratrace: i have exactly this prob replaced-url
2325[20:49:37] <marduk> SerajewelKS: thank you I will think on your words
2326[20:49:44] <ratrace> what's wrong with the proprietary driver?
2327[20:49:52] <Jmabsd> ratrace: ah. em. well okay
2330[20:50:22] <ryouma> ratrace: i spent 3mo trying to downgrade xorg because matrox stopped supporing xorg. that is why.
2331[20:50:26] <SerajewelKS> marduk: perhaps if you explain why you think ftp is better, what it offers you that scp doesn't, we could try to explain how you could get that same experience with scp
2332[20:50:58] <ratrace> ryouma: 3 months? I'd go out and buy another card, that'd be way cheaper than spending that time trying to bend Debian out of shape
2346[20:53:54] <marduk> SerajewelKS: if I use scp I should exaCTLY KNOW what file and there I should put it, if I use ftp, I can be more free to browse and choose
2347[20:55:43] <SerajewelKS> marduk: so use "sftp" instead, which uses the same protocol as scp but is interactive and lets you browse
2348[20:56:47] <openbsdtai123> good soft, filezilla maybe for begin?
2349[20:58:02] <ratrace> sftp and scp are different protocols
2354[20:59:08] <marduk> SerajewelKS: thank you I just tried sftp, don`t know jet but it is promissing :)
2355[20:59:22] <ratrace> openbsdtai123: openssh is developed by openbsd and they recommend not using scp
2356[20:59:36] <GenTooMan> would adding the firmware-amd-graphics improve video on my AMD system with an APU (laptop) much? Would it also enable using the HDMI connector?
2357[21:01:00] *** Quits: endstille (~endstille@replaced-ip) (Quit: I'll be back.)
2358[21:02:36] <openbsdtai123> (game topic on debian: did you maybe hear about an chess game made with FLTK lib ? (like xboard but with fltk)
2410[21:35:55] <GenTooMan> any suggestions for seeing battery life etc. in LXDE/LXDM or do I need a more bloated DT to actually track the status of my laptop?
2420[21:38:58] <openbsdtai123> Maybe to compile kernel oneself, you need to know more infos about what's inside the 4.09 kernel... can you check that and pastebin more about it...
2421[21:39:10] <towo`> Jmabsd, and what ato card you have?
2422[21:39:13] <pmart> ok found I found the answer: replaced-url
2423[21:40:13] <Jmabsd> wait, better yet: i'll just keep nomodeset.
2424[21:40:30] <towo`> Jmabsd, that doesn't make any sense
2485[21:59:26] <Jmabsd> ahaaa now with the added "nonfree" to the buster-backports in /etc/apt/sources.list, now seems it catches 20190717 version, great
2486[21:59:32] <Jmabsd> also called "bpo". downloading.
2490[22:00:44] <Jmabsd> dvs: just curious, why is that a problem
2491[22:02:26] <Jmabsd> towo`: nooope, same outcome! :(((
2492[22:02:27] <dvs> Jmabsd, because backports packages aren't maintained on a regular basis. Just get the packages you NEED to have and leave the rest alone.
2493[22:02:31] <Jmabsd> screen goes dark, loss of signal
2508[22:07:31] <Jmabsd> here come the logs: replaced-url
2509[22:07:40] <Jmabsd> that's dmesg and Xorg.0.conf
2510[22:07:58] <jhutchins> I'm amazed that there isn't an option or an extension to automatically block looped video. More and more sites are doing auto-play loops.
2511[22:08:39] <Jmabsd> i'll put on a paste site too, sec
2536[22:15:13] <Jmabsd> so weird, "apt -t buster-backports install linux-image-amd64" says "linux-image-amd64 is already the newest version (5.3.9-2~bpo10+1)."
2578[22:26:08] <towo`> Jmabsd, why you have a xorg.conf?
2579[22:26:38] <openbsdtai123> If you find out what was given to your working older kernel, it is possible to get inspiration to compile your custom kernel kernel.org.
2595[22:31:49] <judd> [1002:687f] is 'Vega 10 XL/XT [Radeon RX Vega 56/64]' from 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' with kernel module 'snd-hda-intel' in stretch. See also replaced-url
2596[22:32:18] <Jmabsd> towo`,jhutchins: which kernel do you deem preferable, 4.19 or 5.3?
2614[22:35:35] <jhutchins> Jmabsd: Try loading x again?
2615[22:36:34] <Jmabsd> jhutchins: yep doing sec
2616[22:37:32] <openbsdtai123> I just installed with debootstrap on a scandisk pendrive, installed minetest, on my intel. Is it possible that for gaming, running debian from pendrive will be slow and laggy?
2617[22:38:01] <Jmabsd> yey, X is 4K now! :D
2618[22:38:15] <jhutchins> openbsdtai123: A standard install to a pen drive will be slow. Most people will find it unusable.
2619[22:38:17] <Jmabsd> it's slow but it is 4K.
2620[22:38:48] <jhutchins> Jmabsd: You can delete that conf file since you don't have that card any more.
2623[22:39:17] <openbsdtai123> jhutchins: then... this confirms it. Thank you!
2624[22:40:04] <Jmabsd> looks like xorg.log says it's using "fbdevhw", sounds like vesa. the graphics are fast... but it does speak of amdgpu too, hm.-
2635[22:44:30] <nvz> Jmabsd: and often newer means less tested and that can lead to problems. There is little reason to upgrade a kernel unless you have hardware too new to be supported by the existing one
2639[22:45:31] <nvz> I only compiled 5.x cause I have special interest in the kernel and I haven't build one since 2.6 and I'm looking to build actual manufacturing machines running realtime linux so.. I wanted to get up to speed
2672[22:53:47] <dpkg> Where possible, most ATI/AMD graphics processing units are supported using the open source "radeon" driver on Debian systems by default, ask me about <radeon>. To install the proprietary "fglrx" driver, ask me about <fglrx>; installing this directly from amd.com (i.e. with the AMD Catalyst installer) is not supported in #debian, please go to #ati on irc.freenode.net.
2687[23:00:17] <dvs> Jmabsd, that's why it's LTS - Long Term Support. Those kernels will get security improvements. Not sure about the speed improvements though.
2712[23:13:20] <dpkg> HDMI audio output with the open source <radeon> driver is disabled by default since Linux 3.0. To enable, load the radeon module with the "audio=1" parameter; ask me about <modprobe>. See also <radeon firmware>.
2713[23:14:23] <openbsdtai123> Vesa would have been always useful to keep, especially for older hardware. Xorg is evolving, nothing to do about that.
2753[23:30:28] <joepublic> the stretch->buster factoid feels a little like it was written to upgrade to buster when stretch was stable and buster was testing
2758[23:32:22] <dpkg> stretch->buster -- created by themill <~stuart@unaffiliated/themill> at Fri Jun 16 14:01:53 2017 (929 days); last modified at Sun Jul 7 02:12:46 2019 by themill!~stuart@themill.user.oftc.net; it has been requested 301 times, last by anddam, 9m 4s ago.
2759[23:32:36] <nvz> dpkg, buster
2760[23:32:36] <dpkg> Buster is the codename for the current <stable> release, Debian 10, released 2019-07-06. "Buster" is Andy's pet Dachshund in Toy Story, see replaced-url
2774[23:39:20] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2775[23:40:38] <nvz> anddam: yes well that is apparently referring to stable-specific in a different manner.. not the lines themselves but the packages they provide
2780[23:41:35] <anddam> nvz: but for me (user) it was unclear
2781[23:42:05] <anddam> I mean I'd spent a couple more words there explaining that you should know if the provided packages are stable-specific
2782[23:42:19] <nvz> anddam: it seems mostly semantics that its unclear and aside from simply omitting the mention of stable-specific, I don't see how to clarify it cause really I don't see any other thing that would fall into this category that isnt mentioned elsewhere like <dmo>
2783[23:42:43] <nvz> the thing about factoids is they have a limit.. because irc has a limit..
2784[23:42:48] <joepublic> saying "stretch-specific" would do the job. if you are running something from stretch-backports, it's already in buster
2785[23:42:51] <nvz> so we can't ramble on and on in there
2786[23:43:10] <nvz> but I can change it if we have something sensible to change it to
2787[23:43:53] <nvz> I dont like it because it seems like an unnecessary classification it seems to imply there are a category of such lines
2788[23:44:05] <nvz> to me, this is covered by the 3rd party thing..
2790[23:44:32] <nvz> there is no other line that is semi-official like backports.org that I can think of that would fit into the same category as it for this context
2791[23:44:44] <nvz> so the qualifier "stable-specific" is itself unnecessary
2792[23:44:57] <nvz> could just say
2793[23:45:19] <nvz> "remove lines like stretch-backports, debian-multimedia, and any 3rd party repos.
2795[23:45:42] <nvz> thats not implying necessarily that backports is 3rd party, while still mentioning things that should be removed
2796[23:46:18] <nvz> cause backports is semi-official is what I'd call it.. its maintained by debian maintainers, in that sense its official, but its outside normal debian policy
2797[23:46:43] <nvz> its officially unoffcial would be another way to say it :P
2798[23:46:44] <joepublic> dmo neé debian-multimedia is itself third party, of course
2799[23:46:55] <nvz> well not really..
2800[23:47:04] <nvz> dmo was also created by a debian mainatiner :P
2801[23:47:15] <nvz> its just not quite officially unofficial
2806[23:48:11] <joepublic> I was confusing the two it seems
2807[23:48:54] <nvz> however we have in this(and freenode) support chat long since advised against its use.. but we are not "official" we are users supporting users for the most part
2812[23:50:40] <nvz> I propose then we move the apt update && ... etc to the end of the factoid as that shouldn't be done until you do the rest.. and combine the remove backports, dmo, and 3rd party stuff more clearly as previously stated