20[00:11:52] *** Quits: Matt12345 (~Matt12345@replaced-ip) (Quit: See you)
21[00:12:07] <Beggar> there are some pages there tlaking about debug options, and the log output. Maybe it can help. anyways sorry for poking in the issue.
27[00:14:57] <deleuze6> looks like there are two misleading bits. one is the fact that the warnings in the log file tell me to 'dd if=/var/lib/dovecot/ssl-parameters.dat bs=1 skip=88 | openssl dhparam -inform der > /etc/dovecot/dh.pem' when that is what creates a 'too small' key'
28[00:15:05] <deleuze6> er, by key I meant dh params
30[00:15:54] <deleuze6> so the correct thing to do is ignore that advice (and, presumably, default dovecot behaviour) and use the 'openssl dhparam -out /etc/dovecot/dh.pem 4096' instead
31[00:16:54] <deleuze6> the second misleading bit is that there is '/etc/dovecot' as well as '/usr/share/dovecot' and unfortunately they are not the same but look very similar
32[00:17:36] <deleuze6> so maybe dovecot and debian need to get together to figure out the right way to make the defaults saner
33[00:17:51] <deleuze6> and the docs on the web probably need to provide some explicit instructions
36[00:18:48] <deleuze6> but in my case the net fix was to (1) have dovecot point to things used by letsencrypt, and (2) generate my own 4096 dh params file and put it in /etc/dovecot/dh.pem
37[00:19:09] <deleuze6> thanks all. I appreciate your help
56[00:44:22] <judd> Package dovecot version 1:2.1.7-7 was uploaded by Jaldhar H. Vyas (Debian GNU/Linux) on 2013-02-05, last changed by Jaldhar H. Vyas and maintained by Dovecot Maintainers.
57[00:44:46] <rant> thats still rather useless I see
58[00:45:58] *** Quits: amphiprions (~amphiprio@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
123[01:29:07] <useretail> azeem, login is disabled for this new user (for obvious reasons). here is how it looks like in /etc/passwd: myuser:x:140:144::/home/myuser:/usr/sbin/nologin
140[01:40:29] <Mathisen> im just gonna asume you have added a repo you found online and hope it works..
141[01:40:43] <Mathisen> or is that original repos ?
142[01:41:03] <kreyren> yep praying to ignucius that it would work
143[01:41:08] <kreyren> from upstream of mono
144[01:41:51] <Mathisen> well something does not match.. so you would save yourself trouble to remove that package and repo and install the one from debian own
206[01:53:51] <Toba> if there is a circuit board through the hole in the case, you can take like clamshell packaging plastic and cut to size a piece to shield the circuit from being shorted by the steel epoxy
207[01:53:51] <kreyren> great wasn't sure if it's going to work O.o
227[01:58:05] *** Quits: Haudegen (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Quit: Bin weg.)
228[01:58:15] <Toba> one thing i would advise, any area you are about to jb-weld onto, first daub it with a cotton swab that has isopropyl alcohol on it
229[01:58:23] <kreyren> i see any recommendations for me to avoid?
230[01:58:29] <Toba> you don't want any oils on the surface or it may interfere with the bond with the jb-weld
245[02:01:00] <Toba> I guess there is also a very liquidy jb-weld kind, but i recommend the putty you cut a bit off the end of the stick and then squish it together with your fingers
270[02:04:01] <Toba> I think a liquid when you're patching a computer with circuits inside is a bad idea, at least without knowing the details of what exactly you're patching with what
271[02:04:21] <kreyren> yep i was talking about liquid, but i'm not sure what to use yet.. i will probably use liquid for the parts for which i can make a mold and putty for these where i miss lots of material alike replaced-url
327[02:18:19] <SerajewelKS> hmm, why is the default /media/cdrom0 suddenly being mounted noexec after the buster upgrade? the fstab doesn't specify noexec.
360[03:08:22] <Beggar> I am starting go get kind of mentally impaired here with this system. O.O
361[03:09:29] <Beggar> I really do not want to reinstall. But I can not live without microphone. Not being able to record audio is too much to me to bear.
364[03:11:47] <GenTooMan> I am mostly confused at this time.
365[03:12:10] <GenTooMan> beggar you broke your system? :D
366[03:13:45] <Beggar> I had an working system... then I upgraded to Buster. Then I had some trouble but I could solve msot of it, but then... yesterday morning I was in need to use bluetooth and isntalled blueman and bluez, and they had pulseaudio as dependency. I used the bluetooth adn after using I removed pulseaudio and blueman and bluez. And at this point my microfone stopped working.
367[03:15:31] <Beggar> I will reisntall the system eventually, I was using it here since squeeze. and I am having trouble with some stuff too that I would like to fix. But I prefer to wait until Buster get more upgrades, then I can reinstall si clean here.
368[03:15:51] *** Quits: karakedi (~eAC53C340@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
369[03:17:11] <aaro> maybe just reinstall what you uninstalled
370[03:18:15] <aaro> or run alsamixer and F6 to select sound card
371[03:18:20] <Beggar> aaro I tried it already. I even isntalled pulseaudio (I do not use pulseaudio )
372[03:18:39] <friendlyGoat> there was a power outage, im running Debian Stretch on another computer and after the power outage i realized the computer no longer could connect to the internet. it uses ethernet if that matters at all. when i try to run sudo apt-get update this is what shows up
399[03:28:33] <Beggar> you can try ifdown enp1s8 and then ifup enp1s8 and then dhclient enp1s8. but probably will need an "killall dhclient" and "killall networkmanager" before that. This maybe can give you soem useful info. also, you said it was an poweroutage, maybe the problem is on the network devices not in the computer. That is all I can say about it right now.
400[03:28:35] <RisingTide> Hey I tried sending mail with exim4 and I get an error
446[03:47:09] <Beggar> i am trying to recreate the alsa configuration here. I do not know it libasound is the right package. I do not know what package creates /etc/alsa and /usr/alsa
447[03:47:23] <Beggar> It is trasnalted... but... let me try
448[03:48:19] <somiaj> anyways, I get a message that also says that the package is valid but it cannot determine the match, this is due to using multiarch here
449[03:48:24] <somiaj> so dpkg-reconfigure libasound2:amd64
455[03:48:54] <dpkg> You have to especially tell the packaging system to reinstall config files because when they are gone, it is assumed that you want them to stay deleted. "aptitude -o DPkg::Options::='--force-confmiss' reinstall $packagename" will restore them (man dpkg for details). If the package uses <ucf> for config file management, ask me about <ucf confmiss>.
456[03:49:04] <Beggar> dpkg_query error: --status needs a n valid name for package but "libasound2" is not. ambiguous package name "libasound2" with more than one stanza installed.
457[03:49:04] <friendlyGoat> oh i rebooted and what you said to do worked! i think its fixed now thank you
464[03:52:04] <Beggar> somiaj, thank you for point it out. I was not awae that using multiarch lib would imply needing to specify arch when dealingk with reconfigure.
474[04:04:29] *** Quits: ckur13 (~ckur13@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
475[04:04:46] <Beggar> I moved /usr/share/alsa to somewhere elase adn tried the reconfigure on libasound and it did not regenerated it. I also tried using the confmiss and nothing... then I checked debian pakckage site and I found out that the correct apckage is libasound2-data
511[04:24:53] <CrazedPanda> Hi. Im using Openvpn client from shell in Buster. Same config files that are working fine on another distro. Keeps timing out for inactivity. Tried keepalive parameters 10 60, and 10 120 which usually works. Neither help. Anything specific to Debian that I should be doing? Ive already installed Openresolv.
537[04:32:56] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: it might be worth running a network capture. when you say that it's "working fine on another distro," where is that other distro box? is it on the same network segment, or is it behind a different router?
538[04:33:11] <somiaj> th_: the debian installer sometimes has trouble with multiboot setups due to its hybrid nature.
539[04:33:17] <SerajewelKS> differing network conditions could be responsible
540[04:33:39] <swift110> sup guys
541[04:34:26] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: note that keepalive is a _server_ directive; using it on a client will not have any effect
542[04:34:37] <CrazedPanda> SerajewelKS : Same exact network and access point. Both boxes side by side.
543[04:34:41] <SerajewelKS> hmm
544[04:34:56] <SerajewelKS> (side note, i've had much better luck with tinc than openvpn)
548[04:36:26] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: my only suggestion at this point is network capture, and try to run openvpn at a higher verbosity level and see if those give you any clues
549[04:36:27] *** Quits: electro33 (uid613@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
550[04:36:46] <SerajewelKS> i've always found openvpn to be a bit annoying in that when it works, it's fine, but when it doesn't, it doesn't really try to help you figure out the problem
557[04:39:23] *** Quits: qwas (~Android@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
558[04:41:09] <CrazedPanda> SerajewelKS : Yea Ive seen that keepalive is used mostly for servers, but it is exactly what is keeping my other client connection stable. If I remove it, it times out. OK thank you, Ill try a net capture. Ive been wanting to try tinc. I may have to now :)
560[04:41:29] <Lady_Aleena> Hello. I would like 2 packages (libgoocanvas3 and python-pygoocanvas) that are in jessie, stretch, and sid but not buster. What would be the best/easiest way to get those packages?
585[04:45:59] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: no joke, it used to be easier to run three openvpns and bridge them together
586[04:46:01] <somiaj> Anyways, it appears the api has updated, and I would use the new versions avaialble in buster, which is gir1.2-goocanvas-2.0 -- this means the functions/code that uses it will possibly need updated, but I think it is worth updating.
587[04:46:09] <SerajewelKS> than fiddle around with the certificate crap
588[04:46:35] <jmcnaught> uRock: we don't encourage people to download packages from random sources here
589[04:46:36] <Lady_Aleena> somiaj, I will give it a try and see if it works.
609[04:58:12] <Beggar> thank you everyone for the pointings and all the help. I will sleep now and try to solve it tomorrow. I ended up reconfiguring almsot all libasound related stuff by now adn nothing changed.
646[05:27:05] * uRock doesn't consider pkgs.org to be "random". Anywho, the package management system should show when a new package subxtitutes another.
698[06:09:46] *** chalcedny is now known as chalcedony
699[06:11:03] <rant> I've been experiencing scroll event failure in chromium for months now both on stretch and now on buster.. it seems to happen randomly and doesnt seem to matter what site is loaded, it occurs WHILE scrolling suddenly scrolling stops and will no longer work on that tab unless I refresh. I dont have any thoughts as to cause, or how to go about troubleshooting it.. its clearly not hardware as scrolling still
700[06:11:10] <rant> works in other tabs and apps
701[06:11:36] <epony> does it happen with PGDN
702[06:11:46] <epony> ?
703[06:11:48] <rant> its super annoying but I've avoided reporting it cause I dont know how to reproduce it for it to be of any use
704[06:12:00] <rant> no, it only happens with a mouse or other such device
705[06:12:08] <rant> I typically use my trackpoint to scroll
706[06:12:18] *** Quits: tempnicker (~tempnicke@replaced-ip) (Quit: i quit!)
707[06:12:23] <rant> however I did plug in a USB mouse to verify it wouldnt scroll with that either when it occurs
708[06:13:06] <epony> Does it happen in other programs?
710[06:13:12] *** Quits: itamarst (uid165457@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
711[06:13:48] <rant> no, and when it occurs, its always while actively scrolling it happens, it affects ALL pointing devices which send scroll events, only the tab on which it occurs, and the scrollbars and arrows or pgup/dn still work
712[06:14:00] <rant> and a refresh of the page always resolves it
713[06:14:45] <rant> at first I thought it was a js thing.. but today it happened on wikipedia which it never happened there before so..
714[06:15:05] <rant> I'm not really sure its due to any script on the page as it doesnt seem to matter which page is loaded
715[06:15:58] <epony> Maybe you should report this to chrome(ium) dev support..
717[06:16:37] <chalcedony> it would seem good to talk to them about it
718[06:16:44] <rant> I'm not familiar with their systems.. I only know debians.. and I know without routinely being able to reproduce the issue resolution is unlikely
719[06:17:45] <chalcedony> rant, it maybe something they already know how to fix, or something that other people said the same thing about, but at least they should know.
731[06:21:01] <rant> cause it just happened before I started bitching about it and it just happened again in one of my open tabs.. I can get it to do it.. and I'd like to gather more info while its acting up
734[06:22:08] <rant> all the troubleshooting I know how to do would/should be irrelevant.. attaching xev to the window wont help, cause I know its getting the events.. it works on all the other open tabs right now
756[06:32:29] *** Quits: tyranny12 (~blarg@replaced-ip) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
757[06:32:54] <epony> The problems are sometimes with the newest CPUs that have integrated graphics and some of the newest hottest gaming motherboards and video cards with Windows only drivers..
758[06:33:12] <chalcedony> yes
759[06:33:26] <chalcedony> but this one does say it supports Ubuntu .. so it can't be windows only
768[06:38:10] <epony> Disregard the old guides suggestion, it was for picking your custom hardware part by part (and those are predating the kernel modesetting for graphics and also integrated GPUs in the CPU).
769[06:38:30] <chalcedony> ahh
770[06:38:49] <chalcedony> parts were supposed to come friday.. still waiting
771[06:38:53] <epony> Check specific info on Debian's web site for Ryzen models KMS support.
800[07:09:33] <aypea[1]> hey. trying to pin iptables to buster-backports but am failing. if I have "Package: iptables" it fails but "Package: *" works. What am I missing here?
801[07:09:38] *** Quits: b (coffee@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
802[07:10:01] *** Quits: nealon (~hamilton@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
803[07:15:31] <chalcedony> epony i'm not getting anything searching for Ryzen on the debian.org page?
811[07:21:58] <epony> chalcedony, well, there are details how to setup amdgpu driver, the firmware etc, but I did not find a list of models "known-to-work" so..
835[07:41:00] <ealfonso> hi. my thinkpad x1 carbon fingerprint reader does not appear to be recognized by debian (sudo fprintd-enroll => list_devices failed: No devices available). is there a good way to troubleshoot this, or is this a known problem?
1021[09:54:22] <dpkg> Logs are what you should always check when you have a problem, they live in /var/log/ . For #debian logs, ask me about <irclog>.
1022[09:54:30] <rant> dpkg, irclog
1023[09:54:30] <dpkg> extra, extra, read all about it, irclog is #debian on <freenode> is logged at replaced-url
1024[09:54:35] <dionysus69> ok I think I have asked this before but still dealing with this problem, my system has 32gb ram but with only 10 occupied, I had 4gb of swap used
1025[09:54:43] <rant> Zen-Follower: ^ knock yourself out
1026[09:54:53] <dionysus69> can I somehow tell system not to use swap if ram is not full?
1027[09:55:32] <Haohmaru> there was some trick about this
1028[09:55:37] <Haohmaru> like a one-time trick
1029[09:55:53] <ayekat> you can set swappiness, but that's more of an indicator, and the kernel may still choose to ignore it, I think
1032[09:56:05] <dpkg> A number of Linux kernel developers debated "swappiness" - exploring when an application should or should not be swapped out, versus reclaiming memory from the cache. replaced-url
1033[09:56:26] <ayekat> you can also just disable swap, which would be a hard-disable - but then what would be the point of having a swap in the first place
1034[09:56:36] <dionysus69> yea I know caching is a thing, but I dont get what's the point of swapping if memory is available
1035[09:57:01] <dionysus69> there are certain applications who do swap on purpose not to waste ram
1040[09:57:27] <rant> likely because something has not been used and the kernel has determined that it would gain more performance by swapping that out and allowing for more cache or such
1041[09:57:54] <dionysus69> ah ok, maybe because I left pc running over the weekend
1042[09:57:57] <dionysus69> 3 days in fact
1043[09:57:58] <ayekat> I don't think userspace applications get to decide whether they will be swapped out
1044[09:57:58] <Haohmaru> *cough* *cough* kde sux *cough*
1045[09:58:09] <Zen-Follower> if you have a ssd or nvme and enough RAM, you can go without a swap partition
1046[09:58:30] <rant> dionysus69: I think your choice of programs is the issue.. I only have 8GB ram and I never seem to use more than half of it and haven't swapped since I got this machine
1047[09:58:33] * ratrace wonders how having ssd or nvme counts in this equation
1048[09:58:36] <ayekat> why is ssd/nvme relevant for not having swap
1049[09:58:41] <dionysus69> I do have swap partition but on HDD, not on SSD, even though I have SSD, didnt think about it when I was partitioning
1050[09:59:01] <Zen-Follower> because it wears them down
1051[09:59:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1532
1052[09:59:11] <ratrace> nah that's a myth
1053[09:59:32] <ayekat> Zen-Follower: no, how is having an SSD a condition for being able to remove the swap partition?
1054[09:59:33] <dionysus69> HDD has to be worn even more then
1055[09:59:46] <ratrace> it used to be true in the very early days with ssd lifetimes being much much shorter anyway
1056[09:59:46] <ayekat> there's a logic knot in there - also yeah, SSD wearout is a thing from the past
1057[10:00:03] <Haohmaru> is it?
1058[10:00:05] <ratrace> these days ssd can happily survive writing of hundreds of TB of data
1112[10:10:10] <dionysus69> I am pretty sure you can turn off all animations on kde, but somehow for some reason, they dont annoy me
1113[10:10:15] <Zen-Follower> I guess in the end it all comes down to choose one wm-library (GTK/QT) and stay clear of the other, which most people fail, 'cos there's at least one program from "the other side" they miss on their own so one ends up installing both libraries and both eat their share of hdd-space and ram
1114[10:10:27] <Haohmaru> i use a panel from xfce, cuz it has fancier clock and cpu/ram meters, i still use the lxde panel for the actual start menu
1115[10:10:51] <Ticho> yes, yes, but which desktop environment can pee the farthest?
1131[10:13:35] <Zen-Follower> but that's a matter of taste and preference, so it's a neverending pointless debate ppl bring up, just because they like arguing ^^
1132[10:14:13] <rant> thats using the machine more than I'd ever realistically be using it.. and I'm still not putting a dent in my memory
1136[10:14:51] <Ticho> no, the root cause is people over-identifying with the labels or brands they use, so they take it as a personal insult if someone says something bad about the label/brand
1137[10:15:13] <Zen-Follower> if you want to bring your system to high ram usage, you need to do some video-editing, I guess
1142[10:16:36] <dionysus69> rant: I dont use chrome/ium
1143[10:16:37] <rant> I could've loaded audio into audacity, been running ffmpeg trasncoders.. etc and still not have gotten much higher in usage
1144[10:16:57] <ratrace> rant: now do the same in gnome. i dare ya :)
1145[10:17:10] * Zen-Follower wonders, if he's ever gonna run out of his 14G of RAM
1146[10:17:17] <rant> dionysus69: yes, well as I said your choice of programs are probably the problem.. I had 3 different browsers running in that screenshot
1147[10:17:27] <rant> and that windows browser is ancient.. like FF 45 or something
1159[10:19:18] <rant> dionysus69: right.. I was illustrating that your issues with ram/swap when you have 4x my hardware is probably due to your choice of programs cause I can ride this machine hard.. its a laptop no less.. and running on battery right now
1172[10:20:55] <rant> dionysus69: closely examine the apps you use and your swappiness params..
1173[10:21:38] <dionysus69> ok different problem for my laptop, recently the audio it transmits through speakers and bluetooth connected devices has dropped like 3x, but aux headphone jack produces good old sound
1174[10:22:10] <rant> dionysus69: install pavucontrol and look into the settings
1175[10:22:18] <dionysus69> I do have it
1176[10:22:32] <dionysus69> I also looked in alsamixer
1177[10:22:38] <dionysus69> all settings are on 100%
1178[10:22:43] <dionysus69> still very low volume
1179[10:22:46] <rant> you can change volume on a per-device and per app basis.. in pa and you can go over 100%
1185[10:24:02] <dionysus69> dunno I will come back to this when I am on my laptop then, atm I will just take a break :D
1186[10:24:16] <rant> many bluetooth devices are rather crappy commodity items.. not real quality audio for much other than wireless voice applications
1187[10:24:35] <rant> the ones that are good, are expensive :P
1188[10:24:45] <dionysus69> I am talking about bose :D they used to work great, then one day the volume went down
1189[10:25:05] <dionysus69> on my phone they still work great, it means my pc bluetooth thing has same thing wrong with it as with speakers
1256[10:55:03] <vlt> Hello. Every couple of days (on average 5 to 15) my Debian server isn't reachable by network anymore. On the serial console I can see a lot of network is down/up messages every few seconds. Of the things I tried (including rmmod/modprobe igb) only rebooting solves the problem.
1257[10:55:22] <vlt> This behaviour didn't change after I updated from Debian 9 to 10 last week.
1258[10:55:36] *** Quits: TomyWork (~TomyLobo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1259[10:55:45] <vlt> Any idea what could cause this? replaced-url
1262[10:57:15] <alkisg> dionysus69: re: swap: suppose a kde application has a memory leak; and it fills 32gb ram; this then would cause other apps to write to swap; then suppose you close the problematic app and RAM is reclaimed; the swap would still not be released until you run swapoff -a; swapon -a
1263[10:57:28] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1264[10:58:14] *** Joins: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip)
1276[10:59:45] <rant> vlt: may want to try a newer kernel and if problem persists, forward that upstream to kernel devs, but for now you can file that against the kernel you're using on the debian bts
1280[11:04:19] <vlt> rant: That NIC in that very machine worked flawlessly since 2011 with various Debian versions. Maybe the problems were introduced with Debian 9. Hmmm ...
1330[11:26:52] <pragomer> hi. general question. meanwhile I have many so called "dotfiles" and configs in my homefolder. I am thinking about registration at e.g. gilab or github so that I can clone these configs to my new installs (i do often fresh installs). is this a recommended way or what whould you say?
1332[11:27:04] *** bpsecret- is now known as bpsecret
1333[11:28:20] <themill> ,i vcsh
1334[11:28:21] <judd> Package vcsh (misc, optional) in buster/amd64: Version Control System for $HOME - multiple Git repositories in $HOME. Version: 1.20151229-1; Size: 18.7k; Installed: 52k; Homepage: replaced-url
1335[11:28:44] <obliviancandy> Hey, what terminal emulator do you guys use?
1336[11:29:06] <colo-work> rxvt-unicode
1337[11:29:07] <themill> (be careful with putting things on a public git hoster that shouldn't be there)
1344[11:30:30] <rant> personally I'm perfectly happy keeping my own backups
1345[11:30:34] <pragomer> how would you realize this? i have even a homepage and so my own domain where I could put these files into a subfolder that isnt crawled
1356[11:34:04] <ratrace> the backup script collects some system settings too, dpkg selections, etc... in case I'll need it.
1357[11:34:21] <pragomer> ok, so I think I will try to use rsync on my own sftp domain.
1358[11:34:35] <colo-work> I have gitolite3 installed on a Debian server in my home for my dotfiles-repo, and use restic to perform backups.
1359[11:34:44] <ayekat> git is practical because you get history
1360[11:35:13] <ayekat> i.e. I can still dig out some old/forgotten/deleted config from 2013ish, and knowing that, I'm not too conservative about keeping stuff around that I don't need
1379[11:39:02] <rant> you can also avoid it by never making it remotely possible.. I've many times removed my camera, recompiled my kernel without any support for such things, and then still put electrical tape over the hole :P
1380[11:39:34] <rant> and I can be pretty damn sure nobody used it for remote surveillance.. I didnt need to make sure I wasnt doing anything compromising
1381[11:39:47] <rant> the rule is don't CYA, do it 3 times
1382[11:39:58] <rant> because the LAW is, anything that can happen, will
1386[11:40:23] <ayekat> yeah, depends if you care about sharing your configuration with other people, I guess
1387[11:40:30] <ayekat> but again, using git doesn't imply it's public
1388[11:40:59] <rant> I see the utility in the whoe git thing, and I know people do it, I think I've even seen before software specifically for this.. I dont recall what its called offhand..
1389[11:41:10] <rant> and I imagine you could encrypt it beforehand with similar results
1390[11:41:17] <rant> but I'm still not gonna do it :P
1413[11:45:40] <ZaZaGX> i installed Debian, but it won't let me do sudo apt-get update
1414[11:46:12] <ayekat> too bad
1415[11:46:30] <Mathisen> ZaZaGX, an error message would help...
1416[11:46:51] <rant> ZaZaGX: I'm sorry to hear that.. you need to be more specific.. sudo isn't installed by default on debian unless you do not choose a root password
1417[11:47:08] <ZaZaGX> can't do sudo, it will be reported
1425[11:48:52] <ratrace> no need, the sudo group is already set up by default; just usermod -a -G sudo yourusername
1426[11:49:02] <leni536> is sudo installed by default? As I remember I had to install it.
1427[11:49:16] <ayekat> leni536: depends if you set a root password when installing
1428[11:49:16] <ratrace> it seems to be on buster
1429[11:49:44] <ayekat> (or used to depend, at least - it used to be that if you set no root password, it would install sudo and add the first user to the sudo group)
1430[11:50:15] <Mathisen> just add yourself only diffrence with visudo is it the syntax checking
1566[13:24:15] <FinalX> think we might switch these boxes to xenial for the time being instead, and then later it's somebody else's problem to upgrade :p
1584[13:34:28] <mrig> I seem to be getting a few hundred microseconds delay before a couple of my keyboard keys register being pressed, this is only on a usb keyboard not on the laptop keys. Could the update to Buster and Wayland be causing this?
1585[13:34:58] <mrig> the h key and the arrow up key, curiously.
1616[13:55:39] <Guifle> hello, I asked here whether debian 10 was really ready, and if it would run smoothly. someone here said, yes. I installed it, and a number of things don't work.
1617[13:55:51] <Guifle> I can't call programs from the command line
1618[13:56:07] <themill> real commands and real output would be sensible
1619[13:56:22] *** Quits: gnumdk (~gnumdk@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1620[13:56:24] <Guifle> 'unable to init server: Could not connect: Connection refused'
1657[14:01:38] <rant> jelly: heh.. yeah well I'd but 0bin on there for the paranoid people cause at least it didnt have popups, ads, etc like pastebin.com
1658[14:01:39] <AppAraat> jelly: "Paste expirations (or lack thereof) are approximate and not guaranteed" :(
1662[14:03:15] <pyfgcr> Guifle: I think that wayland doesn't allow you to run GUI stuff as root, but you can try with pkexec
1663[14:03:16] <AppAraat> but it's all text :D
1664[14:03:18] <themill> Guifle: It might be that you need to run an X session rather than a wayland to get these things to run as root... but also, see if there are ways of doing this not as root. It's not a good plan
1665[14:03:40] <Guifle> jelly, how do I switch to the latter?
1666[14:03:41] <AppAraat> then again if I want somewhat of a permanence I should probably web-archive it
1667[14:03:42] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1687[14:09:26] <pyfgcr> I have a key on my keyboard marked with a moon, I often press it by accident and the behaviour is like if 'poweroff' was called
1688[14:09:47] <jelly> the dreaded sleep button
1689[14:09:53] <pyfgcr> trying to get the code with xev is probably not a good idea
1690[14:10:02] <Guifle> it'd be great to be able to use F12 again, though :)
1721[14:17:58] <pyfgcr> ah, I guess the point is HandlePowerKey=poweroff in logind.conf, but I actually only want to disable the keyboard key, not the actual power key, that is too handy
1722[14:18:01] <jelly> Guifle, maybe guake does not work with waylang either?
1730[14:19:29] <Guifle> jelly, I just noticed that F12 works when the current window is the web browser, but it doesn't when it is file manager or any other.
1744[14:24:58] <epony> on my laptop, there is no physical suspend switch, but the Fn-F1 combo (Zzz) puts the machine to sleep, hybernation works too, and the power button goes for a graceful shutdown, the lid close can be configured to do suspend, hybernate or nothing. No changes required to have this, just good ACPI in #OpenBSD.
1745[14:25:54] <themill> You do realise that's dependent more on your hardware than the OS.
1788[14:37:59] <jmd> What's the holdup getting gettext-0.20 into sid?
1789[14:38:25] <pyfgcr> Guifle: probably only the current buster version is affected by this bug. try downgrading theCorvus package
1790[14:38:26] <greycat> !debian-next
1791[14:38:26] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
1801[14:42:29] <pyfgcr> epony: interesting; however, on any laptop I had, Fn+<stuff> keys are managed by the driver/firmware directly. And btw, this is a sun type 7 keyboard (usb), not the one on my laptop
1812[14:45:18] <epony> pyfgcr, that goes to confirm the opposite of what themill insisted (that it's the hardware more than the OS ensuring these things work), while my opinion is that hardware does have to work, but typically the issues are in the OS / firmware / ACPI / user setup.
1814[14:45:35] <ryouba> i while back i apt upgrade'd and there was a message instructing me how to move apache to php-fpm 7.3. how can i get that message back? (i'd like to do that now)
1820[14:47:05] <epony> hence the example given with #OpenBSD setup, where it just behaves correctly and sometimes even better handling of these (power management) in comparison with Windows (that the hardware makers test for nearly always exclusively)..
1821[14:47:25] <epony> ;-)
1822[14:47:37] <epony> pressure point applied
1823[14:47:40] *** Quits: afidegnum (~isodec@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1824[14:47:53] <Guifle> pyfgcr, thank you, I will try it
1836[14:51:53] <pyfgcr> epony: in this case, it is most probably your keyboard giving the right keycodes; apperently my key is called SunPowerSwitch, and its intended behavior is poweroff, even on sun (now oracle) systems
1881[15:09:04] <centrix> However I get a username/password browser prompt
1882[15:09:09] <epony> one of the reasons people tend to pick IBM's otherwise proprietary, overpriced and not any different in terms of reliability hardware (albeit with a bit better longevity and serviceability, if you can find "that special" part)
1883[15:09:39] <centrix> I also checked "/var/lib/samba"
1895[15:11:58] <pyfgcr> epony: I'm prety sure it is managet by systemd, before it even reaches X/xev
1896[15:12:34] <epony> pyfgcr, most probably.. with desktops and "workstation"^W overpriced desktops, it's much more the software at fault than acpi-firmware
1900[15:14:13] <jstolarek> I have two encrypted partitions and after upgrade to Buster one of them (/home) is mounted automatically at boot, without asking for password. How do I turn that off? Not asking for a password at boot defeats the purpose of encryption :-/
1922[15:20:35] <karlpinc> jstolarek: I'm not using buster, but LUKS requires some password to unlock the data. Do you have the same password on both partitions?
1923[15:21:02] <xbow> y0™
1924[15:21:08] <jstolarek> karlpinc: yes
1925[15:21:19] <pyfgcr> epony: it's not really a fault of anything, I think it is the intended behavior, I'm just trying to change it
1926[15:21:54] *** Quits: pyfgcr (~pyfgcr@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1928[15:22:17] <karlpinc> jstolarek: Then there's probably some magic in the password prompter in the initramfs that's trying the same password and not prompting you if it works.
1929[15:22:52] <NetTerminalGene> jstolarek, did you create a luks key file?
1930[15:23:13] <jelly> hans_, debian doesn't really have hwe stacks anyway
1932[15:23:24] <jstolarek> NetTerminalGene: no. Up until now (i.e upgrade from Stretch to Buster) I was always prompted for both passwords
1933[15:23:35] <karlpinc> jstolarek: You've got 8 key slots with LUKS, so that gives you 8 passwords. (The point being that the actual key is encrypted using the passwords in the slots.)
1934[15:23:54] <epony> pyfgcr, must have worked as unexpected then (you're gone)
1935[15:24:01] <hans_> jelly, oh, well Ubuntu does and i always just thought they inherited it from Debian, guess not
1938[15:24:28] <jstolarek> karlpinc: if I do cryptsetup luksDump on both devices they only show Key Slot 0 as being enabled and the remaining 7 slots are disabled
1939[15:24:36] <karlpinc> jstolarek: You could use another key slot with a different password. If that works (manually, as root) then you can remove the key slot that's got the same password as the other partition.
1940[15:25:13] <karlpinc> jstolarek: Or you could try to figure out what's prompting for the password and read its man page or otherwise see if it is configurable.
1941[15:25:49] <jstolarek> karlpinc: if you're right that there is some magic going on that reuses the same password then I am fine with that - it still requires a password and I can only blame myself that both are identical
1942[15:28:33] *** Quits: kreyren (~kreyren@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1943[15:28:47] <deleuze6> Hi all, I recently upgraded from stretch to buster. Now I cannot read man pages, which is really frustrating. e.g. 'man apt' -> ' Manual page apt(8) line ?/? (END) (press h for help or q to quit)' with no text and then 'man: command exited with status 1: (cd /usr/share/man && /usr/lib/man-db/zsoelim) | [...]' when I hit 'q'
1944[15:29:10] <deleuze6> what is happening? It looks like the upgrade broke something about the pager used by man.
1973[15:37:49] <deleuze6> greycat: as far as I can tell, it happens with all packages. I have tried many different types of things with man entries and they all behave this way now.
1975[15:39:23] <greycat> OK, the next thing I would try is reinstalling the man-db package, just because I can't think of anything else to try except strace-ing the entire chain of programs.
1976[15:40:14] <karlpinc> jstolarek: See zless /usr/share/doc/cryptsetup/README.Debian.gz. You can probably look at the changelog there and check for the change in functionality, or wherever "askpass" comes from. (Or maybe it's in the referenced initramfs readme, dunno.) Anyway, the changelog should give you more info.
1977[15:40:18] <greycat> your zsoelim thing from your error message is also in that package
1978[15:40:40] <Fox> deleuze6: does `update-alternatives --display pager` look ok ?
1984[15:41:57] <namll> hello, I have a local server that when i reboot it sometimes it connects to the network wired through enp3s0 and sometimes it doesnt. Usually when It doesn't connect i just reboot again and it connects.
2007[15:47:41] <roylaprattep> except the one i installed manually, like plex, unrar and gnump3d
2008[15:47:47] *** Quits: woenx (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2009[15:47:53] <deleuze6> karlpinc: ah, good idea. I had looked ('man broken after buster upgrade' and similar was not so useful so I gave up too easily)
2010[15:48:06] <deleuze6> I found this: replaced-url
2011[15:48:16] <jelly> roylaprattep, refine your search to avoid those three, then replace "search" in the command with "purge" or "remove"
2013[15:48:44] <xbow> deleuze6: did you try to recreate the mandb?
2014[15:48:46] <deleuze6> I am not using ubuntu, but the advice worked for me. that said, the solution seems to be about disabling apparmor; not sure this is a good idea?
2015[15:49:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1569
2016[15:49:27] <deleuze6> xbow: how would I do that? (by the way, the 'aa-disable /usr/bin/man' solution worked, although I am not sure about its implications)
2017[15:49:29] <roylaprattep> jelly: how?
2018[15:49:37] <themill> deleuze6: does "MAN_DISABLE_SECCOMP=1 man man" work?
2019[15:49:40] <deleuze6> themill: (for the record the locales were fine)
2031[15:51:11] <roylaprattep> jelly: not exactly no, can you explain?
2032[15:51:32] <roylaprattep> installed package that are not~ODebian?
2033[15:51:54] <deleuze6> themill: no. both 'man man' and 'MAN_DISABLE_SECCOMP=1 man man' break after I 'aa-enforce /usr/bin/man', and both work after I run 'aa-disable /usr/bin/man'
2047[15:53:56] <jelly> roylaprattep, off the top of my head, that might be !~ngrump3d
2048[15:54:01] <deleuze6> I say this after having spent hours yesterday dodging webpages encouraging me to disable security before determining (on this channel) that the right solution was to regenerate dh parameters for my imapd setup, which had begun complaining about short keys
2060[15:56:02] *** Quits: endstille (~endstille@replaced-ip) (Quit: I'll be back.)
2061[15:56:45] <deleuze6> karlpinc: I don't know. Actually I first determined this was a problem after rebooting following the upgrade to buster.
2062[15:57:02] <deleuze6> (which might suggest that rebooting does not fix the problem, although I have not tested it carefully)
2063[15:57:29] <roylaprattep> jelly: how to i add not to search for gnump3d
2064[15:57:37] <roylaprattep> i am trying but it doesnt work
2065[15:58:35] <jstolarek> karlpinc: thanks. Can't see anything obvious there
2066[15:58:36] <deleuze6> karlpinc: I also note that Message #37 of that ticket says that the problem (for which rebooting was a candidate solution) was fixed as of man-db 2.8.0-2, whereas I am running 2.8.5-2
2067[15:58:50] <karlpinc> deleuze6: Sounds worth a bug report....
2068[15:58:57] <jelly> roylaprattep, just append to the same string does not work? aptitude search '~i(!~ODebian) !~ngnump3d'
2069[15:58:57] <roylaprattep> jelly: first, aptitude search '~i !~ODebian'm what does it ask exactly to the system?
2072[15:59:33] <greycat> deleuze6: just for the record, you did "apt full-upgrade" or "apt-get dist-upgrade" all the way to buster, and there are no other issues?
2073[15:59:34] <karlpinc> deleuze6: Yah. They closed and archived the bug. But it, or one of its close relations, still seems to be biting you.
2077[16:00:24] <jelly> roylaprattep, match packages that are ~i installed, AND that are ! NOT ~ODebian available from any repo with Origin set to Debian
2078[16:00:26] <deleuze6> greycat: I ran 'apt-get dist-upgrade', yes
2079[16:00:38] <deleuze6> karlpinc: indeed that would seem to be the case.
2080[16:00:51] <jstolarek> karlpinc: but I just made a simple experiment. During boot I misspelled password for my data partition and them I got asked for a password for my /home partition (and then once again for a correct password for data partition)
2085[16:01:15] <jstolarek> so all seems to be fine, i.e. one still needs to provide a password to access my partitions
2086[16:01:26] <karlpinc> jstolarek: That's where it says that "askpass" is doing the password asking, along with something else it references that's in the initramfs package. (IIRC) So now that you know what's asking, you can look into what changed in the program that's asking.
2087[16:01:29] <greycat> hans_: it hasn't changed.
2088[16:01:32] <greycat> !buster su
2089[16:01:32] <dpkg> The <su> command changed in buster: it no longer overrides the PATH variable. See replaced-url
2090[16:01:36] <roylaprattep> is it safe to remove these packages, i issued the command "aptitude search '~i(!~ODebian) !~ngnump3d !~nplexmediaserver !~nunrar'"
2098[16:02:13] <greycat> hans_: are you using "su"?
2099[16:02:17] <hans_> yes
2100[16:02:19] <greycat> !buster su
2101[16:02:19] <dpkg> The <su> command changed in buster: it no longer overrides the PATH variable. See replaced-url
2102[16:02:23] <jelly> roylaprattep, then go ahead and try to remove them. Some might be dependencies for other packages, or not, so read carefully what aptitude is saying
2103[16:02:23] <hans_> ohhh
2104[16:02:24] <hans_> why
2105[16:02:27] <hans_> why doesn't it do that?
2106[16:02:32] <greycat> because debian developers are idiots sometimes
2123[16:04:39] <jelly> roylaprattep, that reasoning is not right. The package management system simply won't remove packages that are set to manually installed, no matter where they come from.
2124[16:04:44] <Haohmaru> su su sudo su su SU SUUUUUUUU
2132[16:05:18] <hans_> alkisg, yeah i think -i is portable between both debian and ubuntu
2133[16:05:28] <greycat> alkisg: ALL of these are on the wiki page that the bot has triggered twice
2134[16:05:30] <roylaprattep> jelly i know that gnump3d and plexmediaserver had no dependencies
2135[16:05:32] <jelly> roylaprattep, doing cleanup afterwards is a normal part of the release upgrade, and is, I believe, documented in the release notes
2136[16:05:43] <alkisg> Sorry wasn't following closely
2137[16:05:49] <roylaprattep> i did the cleanup
2138[16:06:08] <hans_> > hans is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
2139[16:06:09] *** Joins: Prints (~333@replaced-ip)
2140[16:06:19] <roylaprattep> whats the dpkg command to search for obsolete packages after dist-upgrade?
2141[16:06:27] *** Quits: qwas (~Android@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2142[16:06:36] <hans_> nvm
2143[16:06:37] <jelly> roylaprattep, dpkg and apt do not know where those came from once they're installed, they also do not know whether you have, say, locally compiled binaries or scripts that depends on old packages.
2145[16:06:51] <hans_> roylaprattep, i don't know, but my best guess would be: apt autoremove
2146[16:06:53] <roylaprattep> jelly: ok
2147[16:06:59] <jelly> !obsolete
2148[16:06:59] <dpkg> If you remove a repository from your sources.list (e.g. removing <dmm>), then you should check what packages you have installed from the other repository. Synaptic and aptitude have a "Obsolete and Locally Created Packages" list. Or, "aptitude search ~o". Note this doesn't include packages that exist in the repo at a different version to the one you have installed; see <not available> <list repositories>.
2149[16:07:13] <Haohmaru> roylaprattep synaptic shows them in a section
2151[16:08:14] <roylaprattep> someone gave me the exact same command but for dpkg a few days ago
2152[16:09:12] <greycat> roylaprattep: dpkg does not have the CONCEPT of "obsolete" packages. Aptitude and synaptic do, because they CREATE that concept themselves by comparing the installed packages against the theoretically available packages.
2155[16:09:50] <jelly> roylaprattep, dpkg does not know about repositories, it'd be rather hard to provide an equivalent
2156[16:10:08] <jelly> unless you go back to dselect and /var/lib/dpkg/available
2157[16:10:28] <hans_> why do i need to re-login to ssh for sudo to notice that "hans" has become a member of the group "sudo" ? if you're not a member of sudo when ssh'ing in, then add yourself to sudo on a different terminal, then try to run sudo again, sudo won't notice that you're a member on the existing terminal, but if you ssh back in, sudo knows, it's kinda weird
2158[16:10:47] <jelly> hans_, because group memberships are applied at login time.
2162[16:11:22] <colo-work> what do you think are the chances of getting Debian Buster onto one of these (with proper support for all the integrated hardware)? replaced-url
2163[16:11:28] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2165[16:11:36] *** Quits: JohnML (~john1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2166[16:11:46] <jelly> colo-work, depends on how closed the boot loader is.
2167[16:11:52] <roylaprattep> jelly: ok thx
2168[16:12:00] <roylaprattep> jelly: really appreciated man
2169[16:12:01] <greycat> Users do not have privileges. Processes have privileges. When you login, your login shell or session is infused with privileges based on the passwd/group files, and those are passed down to everything you run within that session.
2183[16:14:19] <ohwowlol> jelly: its 50/50 indeed. but I highly doubt it wont work.
2184[16:14:35] <ohwowlol> Ive bought my fair share of those SoC types, its most likely running linux even better
2185[16:14:37] <jelly> it certainly won't be an OOTB experience
2186[16:14:52] <ohwowlol> they dont care about Secureboot at all. that was the experience I had with them
2187[16:15:40] <deleuze6> karlpinc, greycat: thanks for your help. I must add that while I appreciate the security hardening encouraged by Debian buster, it would benefit from some clearer signposting and easier onramps to the better security.
2188[16:15:52] <jelly> ohwowlol, that's good to know
2189[16:15:54] <deleuze6> (otherwise workarounds will proliferate)
2190[16:16:14] <colo-work> I'll try to collect more data before I'll have to order one to find out for sure ;)
2196[16:19:21] <jelly> oh it's one of those fatties with a screen.
2197[16:19:25] <colo-work> jelly, I wouldn't intend to use it as a media set-top box kind of thing, but as a kind of controller hub for my (cloud-less) "smart home"
2198[16:19:46] <colo-work> (displaying a browser-based frontend, most of the time)
2199[16:20:07] <jelly> a r.pi 3b or 4 and a screen might be cheaper
2200[16:20:33] <colo-work> but the screens (that I've seen) suck :/
2215[16:27:13] <hans_> didn't expect debian stable to run the very latest version of php, 7.3
2216[16:27:38] <roylaprattep> even stretch have php7
2217[16:27:46] <hans_> is debian security team still managing the php packages, or are they just mirroring upstream and letting the upstream guys deal with security?
2218[16:28:28] <themill> both
2219[16:28:31] <greycat> stretch has php 7.0, and buster has php 7.3
2220[16:28:43] <roylaprattep> yes, but at least it have php7 :P
2221[16:28:45] <hans_> (upstream is no longer maintaining 7.0, it's EOL)
2268[16:44:10] <pyfgcr> after some discussion on #systemd, appearently the only way (if any) to distinguish between two different power keys is via udev
2276[16:46:45] <greycat> hans_: Hmm, I just downloaded ubutu 18.04's sudo package and extracted it, and it looks like their /etc/sudoers has the same secure_path= that Debian's does. So I would *expect* sudo -s on Ubuntu to change PATH just like Debian's does, unless the local sysadmin has altered it.
2327[16:59:27] <hans_> why is popularity-contest opt-in instead of opt-out ? most people will just take the default setting without caring, and those who actually do care will take the option they want, but the option for those who don't really care should be the option most beneficial to deiban imo
2328[16:59:45] <uRock> for privacy
2329[17:00:27] <uRock> the number of people I've seen crying about ubuntu having the default to share that data....
2369[17:12:47] <deleuze6> even then it might have been a 'businesscard' installation; my memory is hazy
2370[17:12:52] <gvth> Hi. When I just tried to remove EXIF-metadata from a pdf document with exiftool, the application printed that edits would be reversible. Do you folks know of a way to ultimately and irreversibly remove metadata from documents like PDFs, JPGs and others?
2371[17:12:53] <greycat> it's more common in certain countries
2395[17:19:54] <f-a> I have received this attachment: IMG_9508.HEIC [image/heic, base64, 1.6M]
2396[17:20:13] <f-a> how do I open it on Debian (I still have to update to stable, to be fair)
2397[17:20:28] <AlpacaFace> SerajewelKS : we spoke yesterday about openvpn vs tinc. This is my other box. Figured out a good simple config for the debian openvpn terminal to keep from timing out and to reconnect on network loss. I commented out 'persist-tun' and used 'keepalive 10 120'. Also, with xfce, I have it configured to blank the display when laptop lid is closed (not suspend). This was causing the inactivity timeout for
2398[17:20:30] <f-a> tried sxiv, qupzilla, chromium, gimp... no success
2399[17:20:32] <greycat> save it to a file, run "file" to get a first guess what it is
2400[17:20:34] <AlpacaFace> some reason, and apparently openvpn has problems reconnecting with a persistent tunnel. In case you or someone else wants to know..
2401[17:20:59] <f-a> greycat: IMG_9508.HEIC: ISO Media
2412[17:26:15] <greycat> if this one random slackware forum thread is to be believed, the buster version of IM may support decoding HEIF/HEIC files, but the stretch version may not
2449[17:39:37] <SuperGamba> f-a I supect H.C.B. would probably love mobile photo... quoting him, "I hate all those enormous reflex photocameras with all those bulky lenses..I prefer smallest possible camera". I suspect his eye could have captured the same emotions with any camera, it' s the eye for the moment not the gear that makes the artist
2465[17:49:23] <SerajewelKS> for AWS machines, is it recommended to wait until the buster AMI is ready before upgrading to buster (to let them sort out any critical bugs) or should it be safe to upgrade today?
2467[17:49:51] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2468[17:50:34] *** Quits: stefanos82 (~stephen@replaced-ip) (Quit: Quitting for now...)
2469[17:50:47] <Mathisen> SerajewelKS, well if that is mostly upp to you. if you got your super important service running there.. dont.. if not.. why not feel lucky :)
2470[17:50:49] <themill> greycat: should be fixed now
2477[17:51:53] <SerajewelKS> one thing in particular that i note is that section 5.1.5 of the release notes must be handled differently on the existing AMI. the interface names are ethN, but none of the usual mechanisms to use the "old" interface names are present.
2532[18:12:06] <immu> in ubuntu you just click and you are done
2533[18:12:15] <immu> but i want to test debain
2534[18:12:23] <azeem> !nvidia
2535[18:12:23] <dpkg> Where possible, Nvidia graphic processing units are supported using the open source <nouveau> driver on Debian systems by default. To install the proprietary "nvidia" driver, see replaced-url
2540[18:12:34] <dpkg> rumour has it, mad is Rob Leslie's MPEG Audio Decoder, GPL, at replaced-url
2541[18:12:38] <poosh> !amd
2542[18:12:38] <dpkg> Advanced Micro Devices is a semiconductor manufacturer. For support of ATI/AMD graphics hardware, ask me about <ati>. See also <amd64>, <coolnquiet>, <k7>.
2547[18:13:15] <dpkg> Cool'n'Quiet is an AMD CPU frequency scaling feature available on server and desktop processors, introduced with the Athlon 64. Supported by the k8-powernow driver since Linux 2.6.18, ask me about <cpufreq>. Cool'n'Quiet may be disabled by default on some systems. See also <speedstep>, <power saving>.
2627[18:52:59] <Zesk> Hello, is there anyone willing to share his preseed.cfg with lvm configuration? I'm failing everytime to deploy a vm with lvm, it seems to not take into account d-i partman-auto/expert_recipe string
2670[19:12:08] <aZz7eCh> hi guys. running debian 9. was there recently an update to libreoffice/calc? out of no where I can not use any of our spreadsheets for work because when i try and insert lines or paste new data in, it breaks all formulas .. any pointers on working out where things have gone wrong?
2715[19:29:12] <rain1> what are these 2 lines and where do they go? proc on /proc type proc (rw), sysfs on /sys sysfs kind (rw)
2716[19:29:20] <aZz7eCh> oh sorry didn't realise that was aimed at me. will follow
2717[19:29:21] *** Joins: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip)
2718[19:29:43] <greycat> !chroot
2719[19:29:43] <dpkg> To chroot into your Debian system boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2). Mount your root filesystem with "mount -t ext2 /dev/whatever /target" and make /dev, /proc and /sys usable with "mount --rbind --make-rslave /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys". You can then chroot into the system with "chroot /target".
2727[19:33:15] <greycat> Once upon a time I tried to point the "firmware images" factoid at the appropriate place in the directory tree so that you could get to any release and any size of image by following the right links.
2730[19:33:45] <greycat> People decided that was too simple and too good, so someone pointed it back and the one specific place three levels down the tree.
2733[19:34:11] <greycat> So, if you want to get to DIFFERENT images, first you have to go about three levels up, and then you can start to see how it's laid out.
2734[19:34:19] *** Quits: kreyren (~kreyren@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2735[19:34:55] <greycat> Meanwhile, every single release-named firmware images factoid still points to that SAME stupid place even though it's completely dead wrong for older releases.
2742[19:37:12] <xcorshinex> guys do you feel a bit laggy on deb10?
2743[19:37:31] <EoflaOEViceCity> n-iCe: I think the nonfree ISOs are only netinstalls.
2744[19:37:35] *** Quits: ckur13 (~ckur13@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2745[19:37:43] <xcorshinex> I opened 5-6 tasks and sometimes it takes 8secs to operate
2746[19:37:51] <somiaj> posh: unless you are testing the installer, standard way to install testing is to install a minimial stable system and dist-upgrade.
2747[19:37:51] <n-iCe> EoflaOEViceCity yeah
2748[19:38:02] <greycat> xcorshinex: with what I do, and how I do it, there's virtually no difference at all between stretch and buster. But other people's setups and application loads may be dramatically different from mine.
2749[19:38:06] <posh> sparky linux just release new version based on buster
2759[19:40:10] <greycat> EoflaOEViceCity: Your statement is incorrect. As I explained a couple minutes ago, there's ALL KINDS of other image sizes, but the factoid that people want you to read doesn't point you to them.
2814[19:53:10] <somiaj> greycat: yea seems strange, though maybe they can fit the whole pureblend on a single bd, and craeted it for a single disk deployment.
2831[19:55:56] <somiaj> you will have to both create a root password, and unlock password login for root (maybe something you don't want to do) to be able to login as root without sudo.
2832[19:56:02] <somiaj> I would personally just use sudo.
2837[19:56:07] <jim> EmleyMoor, if he's logged into his personal account, then files in his home dir might be busy, and therefore the /home partition might be busy
2838[19:56:42] <jim> so if /home is separate, you might not be able to unmount it
2839[19:56:55] <greycat> somiaj: you mean sudo -i
2840[19:57:00] <Efrit> But how I can access to a console from here?
2847[19:57:53] <jim> python question... is there automation set up in debian for packaging python modules?
2848[19:57:54] <somiaj> oh yea, sudo -i (for somereason I was thinking -l for login)
2849[19:57:57] <greycat> Efrit: while you were out, 13:55 somiaj> you will have to both create a root password, and unlock password login for root (maybe something you don't want to do) to be able to login as root without sudo.
2868[20:00:24] <somiaj> maybe we have an xy-problem, what is your actual goal. If it is to become root use 'sudo -i' if it is to run a program as root use 'sudo programname'
2891[20:04:56] <somiaj> ahh, so maybe this is an issue with emergency mode and not having a root account. In this case get a recovery system and fix it from that
2892[20:05:12] <somiaj> you can use the isntaller or a live system to mount, chroot into your install and fix the issue with your /home partition so it mounts correctly.
2893[20:05:16] <jim> yeah I really don't know what your situation really is, and evidently some other folks do
2895[20:07:23] <jim> you might be able to put together a chroot, then add the root user from that (careful though, make sure first you don't have it by looking at /etc/passwd)
2930[20:14:54] <greycat> it's not officially supported. the release notes say "The net.ifnames=0 kernel commandline option might also work for systems with only one network interface (of a given type)."
2941[20:18:33] <SerajewelKS> is there a supported way to rename specific interfaces? at least so WAN interfaces could have a consistent name across all machines instead of enxNNNNNNNNNNNN?
2942[20:18:50] <rain1> how do i change the screen lock settings?
2943[20:19:20] <SerajewelKS> rain1: depends on the desktop environment
2976[20:28:18] <somiaj> could you have just mixxed versions installed, maybe check the output of 'apt policy npm' and 'apt policy nodejs'
2977[20:28:34] <somiaj> also run 'which npm' and 'which nodejs' and make sure that you aren't calling some locally installed version vs the buster version.
2978[20:28:42] <Habbie> npm WARN npm npm does not support Node.js v10.15.2
2979[20:28:44] <SerajewelKS> if you ever updated npm using npm then you have a local version as well
3007[20:32:56] <somiaj> well I thought nodejs was removed from stretch due to 'changing to quickly to provide security support for a frozen system', so I was surprised to see it in buster.
3008[20:33:07] <greycat> npm is a completely separate project from node.js, isn't it?
3009[20:33:13] <somiaj> I don't use this, so no clue what is going on, but it sounds like this is just a warning and you should be able to use npm just fine.
3021[20:37:54] <somiaj> yea, my undestanding was nodejs is still changing so quickly that the frozen version in debian wasn't viable, though maybe it is slowing down and just needs to have a bit more attention
3022[20:38:18] <somiaj> in the debian packages that is, but anyways, seems what JordiGH found is a known bug, and wasn't deemed an rc-bug by the matainers-developers
3029[20:41:25] <JordiGH> SerajewelKS: Yeah, I knew about that, but when I saw that Debian 10 had not-mesozoic node packages I figured maybe something got better.
3043[20:49:29] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: conta)
3044[20:49:32] <centrix> I have installed Deb 10 + samba 4. wbinfo -P or -p works. wbinfo -i userXYZ works. smbclient using my domain credentials works. Squid 4, using winbind does not. Any clues, please? Thank you.
3054[20:53:11] <somiaj> Efrit: in this case you can probably just mount your root file system, then edit /etc/fstab to get past the error
3055[20:53:26] <dan_kelly> There are a whole bunch of packages that exist in stretch and SID are just missing from the Buster's repos. About one third of my debian system is downloded .DEB package.
3056[20:53:32] <somiaj> do you know why the error is happeneing, did you copy down the uuid wrong.
3057[20:53:39] <JordiGH> SerajewelKS: Well, I use Debian because I liked outdated software.
3058[20:53:48] *** Quits: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3059[20:53:57] <Efrit> I think it happened because the file was too big
3060[20:54:02] <Efrit> But I am not sure
3061[20:54:04] <somiaj> dan_kelly: there is often a reason a package is removed from buster, and you should look into that as opposed to installing packages for stretch (safer) or sid (can be very unsafe) in buster.
3062[20:54:05] <JordiGH> Updating every two years is already starting to feel too fast for my poor, old aching bones.
3063[20:54:17] <Efrit> It was ~45 GiB
3064[20:54:45] <somiaj> JordiGH: could be worth waiting until the end of oldstable support (this gives 3 years) and by the time you upgrade, there maybe more stuff in backports then upgading near the release date.
3065[20:55:03] <somiaj> (also note due to LTS you could use a debian release for 5 years reasonablly, though some stuff on desktops do have secuirty support dropped)
3066[20:55:14] <somiaj> Efrit: what file was that big?
3067[20:55:24] <Efrit> A video
3068[20:55:38] <centrix> somiaj, Good, I'll give it a try.
3069[20:55:40] <somiaj> still don't see why that would stop /home from mounting
3070[20:56:08] <somiaj> centrix: #samba on freenode
3071[20:56:28] <Efrit> Well that’s the only weird behaviour that happened before the error
3116[21:11:29] <dpkg> rufus is a tool that can be used to make bootable USB devices under Windows. It is not recommended for use with Debian CD/DVD images, as it mangles the installer in cruel and unusual ways, resulting in hard to debug problems. Ask me about <hybrid images>, <usb install>, <win32diskimager>.
3126[21:12:42] <dpkg> win32diskimager is much more reliable than <unetbootin> for copying ISO images to USB sticks and you can download it from replaced-url
3127[21:12:45] *** archer is now known as Guest89889
3137[21:17:28] <rappscallion> hi there, i just upgraded from stretch to buster, and now my mouse is super fast when i use my trackpoint (its okay if i use the touchpad). i am using xorg with just a window manger. could somebody give me a hint how i can adjust this? i tried xset -m and lxinput, both dont seem to have any effect.
3138[21:17:34] <SerajewelKS> foul_owl: note if you want to jump through another ssh server then you want -J instead
3139[21:18:12] *** Quits: qwas (~Android@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3176[21:35:14] <Klaus_Dieter> it has been 10 years since I last used xfce - sorry I cannot tell you how you define a menu entry. However that is what you would do: create a custom menu entry that runs your command. Your command would be spawning a terminal, then in there run sudo synaptic. Maybe you could look up how the existing menu entry does this and just alter the small changes.
3177[21:35:31] <Klaus_Dieter> However the whole use case makes me think that you *might* be going about this the hard way.
3178[21:35:34] <greycat> Most likely one does it by creating a *.desktop file.
3179[21:35:48] <greycat> that seems to be the common arrangement in the last few years
3182[21:36:25] *** robotpanic is now known as Guest67052
3183[21:36:31] <Klaus_Dieter> usually synaptic is used to set settings that you'd always want active. I run synaptic from my session startup files such that I won't have to execute them manually on login. Maybe something that is worth considering for you as well?
3192[21:41:34] <jhutchins_wk> If someone doesn't know how to run synaptic, they shouldn't be installing software.
3193[21:42:02] <greycat> I don't know how to run synaptic. Literally never even wanted to try.
3194[21:42:08] <a-l-e> if you have better ideas, i'm open... but she will leave tomorrow for 1 1/2 weeks and will take with her a small laptop setup for the holidays... and if she misses a program she should be able to install it.
3195[21:42:20] <a-l-e> greycat, we're two...
3196[21:42:38] <a-l-e> i'm asking beceaus i don't know (exactly) how synaptic works.
3197[21:42:54] <greycat> The main thing is: it doesn't.
3198[21:42:59] <a-l-e> but it looks like the best way to manage software on debian with a GUI.
3200[21:43:21] <greycat> It needs to run the GUI as root, which is a complete no-go under Wayland, and is only possible under X with various hacks to allow root to communicate with not-root's X server.
3201[21:43:45] <petn-randall> synaptic is completely fine for end user consumption, and also asking to let someone who owns the machine to install software without hassle is also a reasonable request.
3202[21:43:52] *** Quits: Guest41437 (~caravel@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3203[21:43:52] <a-l-e> well, i'm pretty sure that ubuntu launches things as sudo from the gui.
3204[21:44:06] <jhutchins_wk> a-l-e: ... so the best way is to open a terminal and use apt.
3206[21:44:15] <petn-randall> greycat: Didn't that bug get fixed?
3207[21:44:42] <greycat> Which bug? The one that caused it to be removed entirely? That was fixed by generating an error message under Wayland, and doing glob-knows-what under X.
3217[21:47:35] <coruja> a-l-e, you could define small bash aliases for apt commands and configure sudo to run apt commands without authentification (but mind security implications too)
3218[21:47:37] <a-l-e> ok, having raead a bit about gksu and pkexec i'll give up.
3219[21:48:16] *** Quits: timahvo1 (~rogue@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3225[21:50:54] <carp_> Hello, Ive just upgraded to Buster! First of all, thankyou so much guys for all your hard work. My computer is now sporting the soothing blue colour palette.
3231[21:53:15] <carp_> I noticed that it was recommended to handle the upgrade using apt, and not apt-get like last time. While on Stretch, I would daily run "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade". Is this recommended for Buster as well? Or should I be using just "apt" now?
3233[21:53:32] *** Joins: banky (~sullivan@replaced-ip)
3234[21:54:02] <greycat> carp_: you only need to do "apt update" one time, to get the prompt and answer it "yes", if you previously ran buster-as-testing. Otherwise, it doesn't matter.
3245[21:57:47] <carp_> greycat ok thanks for the tip. I am a nooby user as you might have guessed. I dont really understand the nuances between aptitude, apt, apt-get and stuff haha, but I guess I will continue using apt-get as before (this is what I used while on jessie and stretch).
3246[21:57:48] <dob1> it's this Bus 001 Device 006: ID 10d6:1101 Actions Semiconductor Co., Ltd D-Wave 2GB MP4 Player / AK1025 MP3/MP4 Player
3257[22:01:17] <EoflaOEViceCity> What happened when you tried to install libncurses5 cmihai?
3258[22:01:30] <theluckymike> hi, im running debian stable with xorg and i3 installed, but without any full DE and somehow it turns off my monitor after some idle time. What service is doing it?
3259[22:01:59] <cmihai> EoflaOEViceCity: nothing. Nothing in logs or strace either.
3260[22:02:06] <cmihai> Normally that 'fixes it' on CentOS 7
3263[22:03:16] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3264[22:03:36] <EoflaOEViceCity> cmihai: Did you get an error message saying that it didn't exist? Or does it say nothing when you tried "sudo apt install libncurses5"?
3272[22:05:07] <theluckymike> aha, dpms section, ok will look in to it. ty
3273[22:05:10] *** Joins: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip)
3274[22:05:15] <rappscallion> xset -dpms turns it off
3275[22:05:22] <rappscallion> xset +dpms turns it on
3276[22:05:23] <rawtaz> hi. quick questions about replaced-url
3277[22:05:23] <theluckymike> ty
3278[22:05:35] <annadane> but that's a temporary measure and resets, no?
3279[22:05:36] <a0z> theluckymike: just run "xset" on it's own to see options. I think you're looking for the Energy Star DPMS feature of Xorg
3280[22:05:40] *** Quits: Sleepy63 (~Sleepy63@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3281[22:06:40] <rappscallion> hi there, i just upgraded from stretch to buster, and now my mouse is super fast when i use my trackpoint (its okay if i use the touchpad). i am using xorg with just a window manger. could somebody give me a hint how i can adjust this? i tried xset -m and lxinput, both dont seem to have any effect.
3282[22:06:50] <rawtaz> ok, after doing /msg dpkg stretch->buster i see that the recommended path is apt update && apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade . i guess i shouldnt bother with the article :)
3283[22:07:05] <annadane> rawtaz, well, you should still read the release notes
3291[22:09:26] <EoflaOEViceCity> cmihai: Can you install it then try to run VMware installer?
3292[22:10:07] <cmihai> Yup, it works now. I dug into the equivalent centos 7 and rhel8 packages (ncurses-compat-libs). Right package for Deiban is libncursesw5 not libncurses5 ;-)
3293[22:11:19] <annadane> curses!
3294[22:11:33] <Akuw> i created a public key and every time i need to login i use public key
3295[22:11:50] <Akuw> but what happen if another user want to connect without use public key
3322[22:20:49] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: Not sure apt-get has full-upgrade. Look at the usage, is it mentioned? If not, try dist-upgrade, or use apt or aptitude (not installed by default).
3332[22:22:28] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: There have been releases where aptitude got stuck trying to resolve all of the depenencies, so apt-get was recommended. I believe for buster they recommend apt.
3333[22:22:34] <rawtaz> jhutchins_wk: seems like things are moving to `apt`, and it's used most of the time in that article
3340[22:23:50] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: Notice that that is NOT the Debian upgrade article.
3341[22:24:02] <jhutchins_wk> !stretch -> buster
3342[22:24:08] <carp_> rawtaz this is exactly the question i was asking just a few moments before you came into the channel. I too am wondering if it is now recommended to use "apt" instead of "apt-get" as I have been for jessie and stretch for regular maintenance.
3350[22:24:57] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: Two stages are recommended because full-upgrade does more critical files, and you have a chance to fix problems before going to the new kernel.
3351[22:25:22] <rawtaz> jhutchins_wk: it's those release notes im reading. i was wondering why in replaced-url
3367[22:31:27] <rawtaz> annadane: i'd use postfix but im pretty sure sendmail is secure enough for your needs, if you use the sendmail that's maintained as part of debian
3368[22:32:28] <rawtaz> annadane: sorry that wasnt meant for you
3369[22:32:29] <rawtaz> Akuw: ^
3370[22:32:51] <Akuw> ok
3371[22:33:21] <Akuw> i am getting this when try to install sendmail " sendmail : Depende: sendmail-bin pero no va a instalarse"
3373[22:33:33] <jmcnaught> Akuw: if you plan on using gmail for delivery then you might want to check out something a lot simpler than sendmail, like msmtp-mta
3389[22:42:01] <Efrit> Ok so after redownloading the iso file then copying on the USB key with the cp command as written in the manual, I still get to the ash shell
3390[22:42:43] <Efrit> When booting from the USB key and selecting the Live menu to try Debian 10
3392[22:43:24] <ghormoon> hi, any ideas what to do if i can print a6 on my printer from a pdf, but only page-per-page? if i try to feed it both pages at once, the printer complains it needs a5 paper, not a6. i was hoping for duplex on one (but even getting it on two a6 sheets would be progress). I'm failing both through okular and through lpr
3393[22:46:40] *** Quits: wilson (~wilson@replaced-ip) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
3394[22:47:10] <rawtaz> hm. im trying to figure out how to trigger the running of certbot manually. there's a timer and a service for it. what's the most proper way to just have it run once (as if the trigger time was reached)?
3395[22:47:30] <Akuw> jmcnaught: installed and tested, is nice
3451[23:03:59] *** Quits: Uberius (~Uberius@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3452[23:05:22] <yokowka> парни приветъ!! вопросъ не по линуксъ, но можетъ знаете - доска объявлений сша и канады?
3453[23:05:50] <a0z> !ru
3454[23:05:50] <dpkg> Это английскоговорящий канал, пожалуйста, говорите по-английски или посетите #debian-russian (irc.oftc.net) (Russian speakers please go to #debian-russian)
3465[23:17:51] <carp_> Ive just been reading about apt, apt-get and aptitude. I have just installed Buster, so this seems like a good time to switch to a different package manager if I am going to. Which do you use?
3466[23:18:19] <ksk> carp_: eeeeh ;)
3467[23:18:46] <ksk> apt-get and aptitude first of all, are two different things, coming to slightly different solutions to problems.
3468[23:19:01] <ksk> apt then is just a frontend to apt-get if I recall correctly
3469[23:20:12] <ksk> while debian aimed to replace apt-get with aptitude, this did never happen. aptitude may sometimes be smarter about resolving problems that can occour (but should not if you only use debian stable).
3471[23:21:02] <ksk> also, aptitude has the option to "aptitude why $pkg" -telling you why pkg got installed (as a dependencie) - though there might be other ways to get that info, not sure.
3482[23:23:30] <ksk> if this is some pre-packaged VM check which formates they offer - and go for the latest stable release. You can get for example VirtualBox or so via its upstream.
3517[23:40:18] <petn-randall> rawtaz: aptitude is a GUI, so that won't go away. And "apt" is the effort to consolidate things, so yes, just use that.
3518[23:40:19] <ratrace> someone's confusing dpkg with various frontends and higher level UIs to the one and only dpkg
3519[23:40:21] <rawtaz> petn-randall: well, those are not in such a restricted context as <the package manager for the operating system>, so thats not really the same thing
3520[23:40:38] <petn-randall> rawtaz: The package manager is dpkg.
3521[23:40:39] <ratrace> the package manager is actually dpkg, one and only.
3526[23:41:01] <ratrace> dpkg: right? there can be only one?
3527[23:41:02] <dpkg> ratrace: I wish you would RTFM.
3528[23:41:08] <ratrace> I wish that too.
3529[23:41:32] *** Quits: kapilp (uid36151@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3530[23:41:38] <petn-randall> rawtaz: Why get rid of the others? Other people might be happy with their selection of tools.
3531[23:42:13] <rawtaz> petn-randall: because as i said, these have been confusing to the average user or at least the average newcomer for very very long. and most basic things can be done with all of them, fueling that confusion
3532[23:42:43] <rawtaz> e.g. apt-get install and aptitude install
3533[23:42:57] <petn-randall> But ... they do different things?
3534[23:43:01] <rawtaz> (im talking about aptitude in CLI mode, not the UI)
3535[23:43:07] <ratrace> bash: aptitude: command not found
3536[23:43:08] <rawtaz> is installing a package not the same thing?
3537[23:43:13] <ratrace> so not sure what's confusing about that
3538[23:43:22] <petn-randall> Dependency resolution is different between the two.
3542[23:43:42] <ratrace> no really. there is no aptitude unless you deliberately install it, so i don't get the confusion for "new users" here
3543[23:43:50] <rawtaz> petn-randall: that might be so, but thats not something non-advanced users have any clue about or even care about in most cases
3546[23:44:26] <somiaj> rawtaz: apt-get is part of apt, and apt is the main one. The main difference between apt and apt-get is apt-get is now meant for scripts, and apt for end user.
3547[23:44:28] <rawtaz> ratrace: are you sure aptitude isnt installed by default?
3548[23:44:29] <petn-randall> Right. So then just don't install it? I don't see where the confusion comes from. Unless you just decide to install it and not understand what those tools do.
3556[23:45:21] * dvs mentions discover just to confuse everyone
3557[23:45:26] <rawtaz> petn-randall: well you dont seem to have any understanding of what im talking about. perhaps you should go duck "apt-get vs aptitude" or similar to see what inm talking about
3558[23:45:35] <somiaj> yea, having to install aptitude to use its additional features is now needed, but the whole idea of the single binar apt, is to provide a simple tool for endusers.
3559[23:45:36] * ratrace waits for someone to mention synaptic too
3560[23:45:39] <rawtaz> petn-randall: im not trying to persuade you or anything. if you dont agree, fine.
3566[23:46:37] <ratrace> rawtaz: sounds like you're complaining there's a choice of tools, and would like to impose OneTrueWay based on your personal preference.
3567[23:46:42] <petn-randall> rawtaz: I get your angle, but you don't seem to understand that different users have different preferences, and all you're asking for is to get rid of all but one alternative for the sake of not confusing users, which is a pretty weak argument.
3568[23:46:50] <somiaj> but apt is meant to be the end user tool, apt-get is isntalled because many thigns will use it. In general a user can use apt/apt-get interchangable.
3569[23:47:01] <rawtaz> somiaj: whats the main usability difference between apt and apt-get? i mena, why cant users use apt-get like before?
3571[23:47:22] <somiaj> you also forgot about a lot of other ones, the gui ones like synamptic or softwaremanager (both in debian), and deselect is still around, though I think this one is close to not being used by anyone.
3572[23:47:42] <rawtaz> petn-randall: im more like put them in one tool instead of in three. and why does there have to be different dependency resolutions? pick the best one and go with that?
3573[23:47:52] <petn-randall> !best
3574[23:47:52] <dpkg> Best for what? Please define what you mean by "best". Gloria Gaynor! Tina Turner! Aretha Franklin! Men without Hats! Women without Hats! Men at Work! Women at Play! Anyone for Tennis!
3575[23:47:57] * ratrace throws a confusion grenade in the pot by mentioning flatpak and snaps
3576[23:48:00] <somiaj> rawtaz: apt-get had a few problems, it is overly complicated to end users. It started to be used in scripts, so this makes it so its api cannot be changed, its output needs to be consistant, and this isn't that useful for a end user tool.
3578[23:48:27] <rawtaz> petn-randall: the one that screws things up the least, and if you need more control than that, then let that one tool have that flexibility. you dont need two different tools to provide flexibility
3579[23:48:30] <petn-randall> TBH those tools should be using libapt, though.
3580[23:48:36] <somiaj> rawtaz: so apt was introduced to be end user, it only documents the most basic tools an end user needs, and it gives fancy colored/progress bar output, and it can evolve and change to match users needs
3581[23:48:47] <petn-randall> rawtaz: Why *two*? There are far more tools than that.
3582[23:48:49] <rawtaz> petn-randall: anyway, there's zero point spending time discussing this, because i understand you have a different opinion, which is fine.
3585[23:49:06] <rawtaz> petn-randall: talking about apt-get and aptitude, which you mentioned before have different dep resolutions
3586[23:49:21] <rawtaz> somiaj: okay, noted
3587[23:49:24] <somiaj> rawtaz: so apt-get is basically frozen, can be scripted, and is meant to be a tool for advanced users, while apt is the tool for end users. But they do most the same things (in the end apt calls apt-get, apt-cache to do its actual work or as petn-randall pointed out libapt)
3588[23:49:40] <rawtaz> that ^
3589[23:49:52] <rawtaz> read it and think about what that means to the newcomer or basic users.
3590[23:50:00] <rawtaz> thats all im saying
3591[23:50:21] <rawtaz> anyway, thanks for your time, i wont take more of it on this topic
3592[23:50:38] <somiaj> a new user can use apt or apt-get, and due to the archive of the internet filled with (often outdated or bad advise) you'll see it suggest both, it is only now that apt is started to be suggested by pages.
3593[23:50:42] <petn-randall> Sure. But you could argue that having 10 DEs is also confusing to the end user, and as such all but gnome need to be removed.
3595[23:51:09] <petn-randall> Or different library versions in the same release, or many other things.
3596[23:51:12] <somiaj> and in most things replacing apt with apt-get (or vis aversa) will just work without the user knowing why
3597[23:51:41] <somiaj> also apt was meant to consildate tools, so no longer apt-get, apt-cache, apt-foo, just one command apt, that contains the basic tools of all of them.
3598[23:51:46] *** Quits: CaptainN (zelda@replaced-ip) (Quit: I have to pee!)
3599[23:51:49] <somiaj> ,v dselsect
3600[23:51:50] <judd> No package named 'dselsect' was found in amd64.
3603[23:52:21] <somiaj> That is the one that I'm surprised is still around (and used)
3604[23:53:33] <somiaj> rawtaz: to me, the biggest issue I see with new users and debian is lots of sources of information is out dated, this even includes the debian wiki, which some pages still have pre jessie info on it.
3606[23:54:24] <somiaj> so it is less that there are multiple tools, it is that there isn't really a nicely currated single location of information, but more information is spread in lots of different places. I still think the debian adminstaros guide is one of the better guides/books, bit it is a bit long for most begining users to read.
3609[23:55:46] <rawtaz> somiaj: yeah hopefully in a few years or sooner, apt will be whats referenced by default
3610[23:56:22] <somiaj> due to all the old out dated pages people will still find with high google hits, it won't any time soon.
3611[23:56:48] <somiaj> I personally think an overhaul on the wiki could help out, but the man power isn't there.
3612[23:56:48] *** Quits: electro33 (uid613@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3613[23:57:24] <karlpinc> And then there's people like me, who don't like apt because it's too verbose and don't see a reason to switch.
3614[23:57:50] <somiaj> or get annoyed each time you try to pipe the output
3615[23:58:10] <somiaj> the main reason I have forced myself to switch to apt, is so when I help people here, my fingers type apt vs apt-get by default.
3616[23:58:51] <somiaj> though it would be nice if apt worked more like git, so apt policy and apt-policy are both the same thing.
3617[23:59:11] <rawtaz> what's the general opinion on NixOS in the debian community, if i may ask?
3618[23:59:22] <rawtaz> is it frowned upon or welcomed or what?