98[00:59:16] <jmcnaught> roylaprattep: sshd might give more information if you increase its LogLevel in /etc/ssh/sshd_config. See "man sshd_config" for details but you could start with LogLevel VERBOSE and then go to DEBUG if it still doesn't have enough information
153[01:24:55] <annadane> i'm pretty happy with buster, it feels a bit quicker and snappier
154[01:25:03] <nohop> I guess the export DISPLAY=otherbox:0 days are officially coming to an end huh? It makes me slightly sad...
155[01:25:07] <annadane> yeah i mean, i'm not well versed in the intricacies of java but i imagine so
156[01:25:17] <agris> ok
157[01:25:24] *** Quits: Mr_Queue (~Mr_Queue@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
158[01:25:28] <agris> and I saw Wayland is the new display server
159[01:25:42] <agris> Are you sure it's "ready" yet?
160[01:25:44] <cybercrypto> Yes, indeed
161[01:25:56] <agris> I remember when Ubuntu did that
162[01:26:02] <agris> way too early
163[01:26:02] <jmcnaught> Wayland is only the default for GNOME, and GNOME on Xorg is still available. I've been using GNOME on Wayland since stretch was released with no problems.
181[01:27:49] <nohop> ... not that Xorg was still really network transparant anymore... with all it's extensions...
182[01:28:07] <kreyren> i'm getting `fatal error: curses.h: No such file or directory` what package on debian has it? libncurses-dev ?
183[01:28:08] <nohop> agris: I don't know. I have personally never used it yet.
184[01:28:13] <agris> It is, I use ssh -X daily
185[01:28:14] <jmcnaught> Has anyone tried X11 forwarding with Wayland or is this all speculation? There's still XWayland running an X server
186[01:29:02] <agris> Also, parden me for asking this may be a stupid question but I still don't know. Why are we starting from scratch instead of working on X12?
187[01:29:35] <nohop> X12? :) It's been X11 for decades! Can't change it now! *grin*
188[01:29:45] <annadane> i'll get a new pc relatively soon so i don't have to deal with nvidia, which also means i can run openbsd on it... /offtopic
199[01:31:19] <epsilon> X11 is from the 80th actually
200[01:31:32] <annadane> the last i heard of wayland redshift didn't work on it, though that was months ago, but that'd be a dealbreaker for me
201[01:31:34] <nohop> agris: The numerous queries between client/server that X11 does...
202[01:31:53] <nohop> Not that I really know how Wayland works, but I think that's one of the things that it addresses and makes it faster/more responsive.
203[01:32:12] *** Quits: Zppix (uid182351@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
204[01:32:16] <agris> yeah, but at the cost of so much flexibility
205[01:32:30] <epony> epsilon x86 is from the 80ies
206[01:32:40] <bustero> i have just installed buster on my laptop which has a 256GB SSD. What steps do i have to take to keep my SSD healthy now that i am running buster?
207[01:32:48] <annadane> let's go back to xfree86!
208[01:33:04] <agris> don't get me wrong, I can totally see wayland as a good option for say a game console or maybe a kiosk, but for a workstation I don't see the cost/benefit ratio in favor
209[01:33:28] <epony> X11 is from the 90ies
210[01:33:36] <jmcnaught> kreyren: libncurses-dev has that file, did it work?
211[01:33:40] <nohop> Ah, nice. I just installed Debian 10 (xfce) on an HP T610, with a Radeon 6320, and the X server doesn't come up at all :)
212[01:34:10] <epony> epsilon slight correction by about 10 years both directions
213[01:34:13] <nohop> That's Xorg though.
214[01:34:21] <jmcnaught> bustero: you probably don't need to do anything if it's a recent SSD, but there's this wiki page you can check out: replaced-url
215[01:35:08] <kreyren> jmcnaught, checking
216[01:35:11] <epony> bustero don't fill it up 101% (done)
245[01:43:35] <roflbot> bustero: if there were some important issue or change, somebody would *probably* have taken the time to update the wiki page :)
250[01:47:05] <nohop> Ok. Xorg Does come up after installing the firmware-linux-nonfree package, but without it, Xorg won't start at all. I assume you guys would probably want a Xorg log, so I pasted it here:
288[01:55:05] <brianherman> whats your guys favorite filesystem on linux
289[01:55:18] <whislock> The one that works for the task at hand.
290[01:55:26] <epony> (or shortly modem data sounds)
291[01:55:36] *** Quits: humpled (~humbag@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
292[01:55:39] <annadane> zbtrfjext5
293[01:56:03] <nohop> Whichever one the installer defautls to. :)
294[01:56:29] <bustero> i installed buster on my laptop' s 256GB SSD and did not create a swap partition. I have 8 GB RAM and do not edit video on my i5 laptop. The thing is that my laptop crawled when I was transfering 30 GB of date from my USB flash drive onto my SDD. The laptop became almost non responsive. Do i need to create a swap partition or a swap file?
295[01:56:37] <epony> may fayvourite fail saystem is youknicks fail saystem
297[01:57:12] <brianherman> @bustero yeah you should create a swap
298[01:57:13] <epsilon> bustero: what did free say?
299[01:58:42] <Tom-_> i actually don't really hate systemd, it's kind of just software. but yeah, if there was a #debiain-talk or -debate or so, i could talk about systemd there if you want to leave this channel for help support
300[01:59:02] <Tom-_> at least wmaker and xorg install w/o systemd
301[01:59:02] *** Quits: toli (~toli@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
302[01:59:23] <epony> tom see #devuan
303[01:59:37] <epony> Tom-_ ^
304[01:59:43] <themill> /dev/null is a good place for systemd discussions
305[01:59:57] <Tom-_> thanks, epony. i know about devuan, but i'm still using debian
306[02:00:01] <epony> I think that software came from #redhat
313[02:02:53] *** Quits: kreyren (~kreyren@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
314[02:03:15] <epony> bustero if you had used a swap partition about 2x the size of your ram or like 10-20 GB (10% of the disk) and it sits mostly empty, that gives you a 10% headroom to reduce the chance of filling it all up (which may increase the effort on the wear leveling on the previous gen drives)
319[02:07:51] <bustero> epony, i did not create a swap partition. do i have to create one or is it perhaps better to create a swap file? i remind you that I do not have any unpartitioned space left on my SSD
320[02:08:12] <epsilon> bustero: pro tip: always left few gig, 10gig free space for emergencies
321[02:08:35] <epony> bustero try with a file first, probably should do
322[02:08:36] <epsilon> always useful if you need some space somewhere in the directory
326[02:10:10] <bustero> with gparted i can shrink the /home partition and then create a swap partition if you consider this option to be way better than creating a swap file
327[02:10:54] <whislock> Whether file or partition, it gets mapped the same way. A swap file should be fine.
328[02:10:56] <epsilon> epony: swap 2x the ram is definitely outdated, ram is cheap these days. usually 50% of ram is enough, if swap is being touched, just add more ram
336[02:14:00] <winny> if you use a lot of swap, OOM killing won't happen for awhile, and you can gracefully try to reduce memory pressure (instead of killing journald or whatever OOM decides on)
337[02:14:02] <epony> (some times dumps on crashes need space there too, you have some swap in use too)
338[02:14:48] <epony> what does the "probably" outdated wiki say? :-D
351[02:18:54] <bustero> I open five Firefox tabs maximum but.. my laptop crawled when I was transferring 30 GB of data from my USB flash drive onto my SSD. The laptop became almost non responsive.
377[02:25:55] <jmcnaught> Lady_Aleena: it appears that nvidia-legacy-304xx-driver is not in buster, but nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver is. There's a list of supported GPUs in the description: replaced-url
394[02:32:51] <jmcnaught> Lady_Aleena: those aren't installed packages, they're available packages. 'dpkg -l | grep nvidia' should show you installed nvidia packages
395[02:32:54] <Synaptic> how to see wich port is using a process in order to add to ufw ?
396[02:32:58] <epsilon> bustero: if you don't need a(ccess)time, consider using noatime to reduce writes on SSD
397[02:33:05] *** Quits: b (coffee@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
398[02:33:11] * Lady_Aleena head desks again.
399[02:33:13] <jmcnaught> Lady_Aleena: I think nvidia-detect also shows which driver you need
401[02:33:45] *** Quits: dak (~dak@replaced-ip) (Quit: WeeChat 2.6-dev)
402[02:34:06] <Tom-_> Lady_Aleena, yeah, nvidia-detect is supposed to answer that for you. but it looks like nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver is the one you'e supposed to install, and probably have installed already
403[02:34:24] <Lady_Aleena> jmcnaught, thanks... now I have that list, and it is 340 NOT 304.
404[02:34:27] <Tom-_> I just checked packages.debian.org and this nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver package has the exact same drivers in the description as Stretch as in Buster
405[02:34:41] <bustero> epsilon, can you please explain in plain English what you just wrote?
406[02:34:51] <Lady_Aleena> Okay, so nvidia shouldn't be a problem this time.
407[02:35:06] <Tom-_> i hope not! and i think the reason it was the last time was because I gave you the wrong recommendation
408[02:35:34] <Lady_Aleena> Well, we shall see. Maybe tomorrow.
409[02:36:00] <Lady_Aleena> I am going to start to make something to eat in about 15 minutes, then eat, then whatever next.
410[02:36:07] *** Quits: Rukus (~Rukus@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
411[02:36:31] <epsilon> bustero: atime is record when a file has been last accessed. If you never us it (and usually you don't), tell fstab not to record/write it.
458[02:57:46] <try> @epony, have you fooled around with opencl, on your AMD hardware?
459[02:57:52] <epony> yep.. and that combined with a secondary VGA monitor from the same cheap video card, with 3D acceleration for media playback, sets the base line
460[02:58:20] <epony> nope
461[02:58:47] <try> I'm interested in how it compares to CUDA, in terms of development effort
462[02:59:40] <epony> these cards are too weak, I think they don't have the double float etc
503[03:26:03] <darkmeson> Is the rationale behind the aggressive move to silently, forcibly move people off of sysv init to systemd after having purged the packages they'd need to revert the change documented anywhere, by chance?
504[03:26:34] <darkmeson> tfgbd_: it's what AMD calls their version of GPU that's integrated into the CPU
505[03:27:31] <darkmeson> So, yes, a marketing term. I just call it "anticompetitive", but at least AMD has a reasonable enough GPGPU core to base it on (ATI's)
507[03:30:27] <darkmeson> To everyone else: as far as my question goes, I realize that probably comes off as intentionally inflammatory, and while I fully expect no one will even respond, it's just something I have to ask to be fair
508[03:30:52] <whislock> You're right, it sounds intentionally inflammatory.
514[03:32:12] <darkmeson> I've been blasting them for it ever since I discovered it since it's more aggressive a move than even the most bleeding edge distros dream of by all outward appearances, but maybe there's a good reason
517[03:33:06] <darkmeson> All I have to do is go through the motions in earnest, and I can keep doing what I'm doing with a clear conscience until/unless someone provides evidence to the contrary
535[03:37:40] <brianherman> ooops wrong person my bad
536[03:37:58] <darkmeson> brianherman: try mount -o remount,discard on it and see if it complains
537[03:38:05] <brianherman> ok
538[03:38:06] <brianherman> thanks
539[03:38:07] <epony> tfgbd_ you're one step closed to a nomination for a title in the Useful Comments Awards ceremony 2019 in the section "one liner noise"
557[03:41:06] <brianherman> at work i use xfs, lvm2, and luks
558[03:41:12] <darkmeson> just be aware that discarding on crypto potentially hurts security
559[03:41:18] <ryouma> my brain is not working well rignt now. does the randomness problem in buster apply to booting, or to only booting machines that run openssh? replaced-url
560[03:41:51] <darkmeson> (especially on SSDs, due to wear-levelling)
561[03:41:52] <epony> darkmeson I'm interested in reading the full scope of your observations on the topic you scratched (moves and changes), do you have something posted online or would you rather share here?
565[03:42:53] <epony> (just curiosity, no need to go into a debate)
566[03:43:06] <darkmeson> epony: I provided about all I know already, and I'm essentially stuck here atm due to issues with an RCA 2-in-1's i915 support and browsers
567[03:43:25] *** Quits: CaptainN (zelda@replaced-ip) (Quit: I have to pee!)
568[03:43:28] <epony> oh, ok
569[03:43:46] <darkmeson> Which is to say that I did a routine update one day only to find that I'd been silently switched to systemd in the meantime
571[03:44:23] <darkmeson> Well, no problem, I thought. It's my bad for not figuring out that convoluted process to pin packages and something I installed dragged it in
573[03:44:57] <darkmeson> ...except it happened on several installations at about the same time, AND I discovered all of the old packages had been removed from ALL of the repos
574[03:45:01] <epony> Yeah, I've seen this happen with other upgrades and re-installs too, should be mentioned in depth in the release notes and accompanied with some ease of migration quick start guides etc.. typically
575[03:45:58] <darkmeson> At first I wrote it off as being just one of those hazards of unning on testing, but debootstrap'ed installations of older versions showed it to be an issue across the board
576[03:46:03] <ryouma> to put my q in different words, do all machines potentially take hours to boot, or just ones that serve ssh?
577[03:46:27] <brianherman> ryouma what i have never had a machine take hour to boot
578[03:46:38] <darkmeson> at that time, there wasn't any mention of discussion of it in the search results either. I just manually traversed several mirrors and found no signs of the packages whatsoever
579[03:46:44] <epony> ryouma do you have a problem with the hostname / dns setup?
580[03:47:03] *** Quits: mibo (~mibo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
582[03:47:12] <ryouma> i have no problems. i do not want to have problems.
583[03:47:18] *** Quits: Panterata99 (b9bd7139@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
584[03:47:30] <ryouma> brianherman: see release notes.
585[03:47:34] <epony> I meant to say, delays in boot time happen sometimes due to DNS..
586[03:47:38] <darkmeson> epony: biggest takeaway there is that it happened MID-RELEASE. That's something not even bleeding edge distros do if they can help it
591[03:48:19] <ryouma> darkmeson: wasn't the pinning man page wrong at one point?
592[03:48:35] <ryouma> (on the trim issue i have been running without trim/discard for a long time now, because i didn't have the energy to zero the whole thing and update the firmware just to permit it. it is not dead yet. the issue with crypt and discard i thuoght was something like "we know what fs you use muahahaha". which didn't seem impressive to me. but i could be wrong, as they are adamant.)
593[03:48:39] <darkmeson> ryouma: just to be clear, you know it's SPECIFICALLY an entropy-related issue? And these aren't vms we're talking about?
595[03:49:56] <darkmeson> I wouldn't know about the manpages. I usually have to look it up online since apt never gained the ability to just 'apt-get pin' like some of the other PMs have
596[03:49:58] <ryouma> darkmeson: yes i know it is specifically entropy, and that it has somethign to do with systemd. but idk if it is a problem in all booting potentially.
597[03:50:16] <ryouma> and yes i am not talking about vms
598[03:50:56] <darkmeson> That rules out the two things I was thinking of then (systemd's infinite waits and lack of virtio rng)
599[03:51:23] *** Quits: bustero (~bustero@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
600[03:51:24] <ryouma> rules out? systemd is default. confused.
601[03:51:34] <darkmeson> that first one is one of the really, REALLY stupid things about systemd btw
620[03:56:05] <epony> if you nail the goals, it becomes understandable (desktoysation)
621[03:56:06] <darkmeson> so I couldn't hazard a guess there if it's actually systemd and not sshd or something else needing entropy to generate certs or the like
622[03:56:17] <epony> (or apple envy)
623[03:56:22] <cyberb01> hey Sr. How's it going??
624[03:56:43] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
625[03:56:55] <darkmeson> epony: things like systemd wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if we were capitalizing on virt concepts like driver domains
631[03:57:29] <ryouma> as a user, i get fuddlified by things like mime types more than i do by systemd
632[03:57:50] <darkmeson> Instead, they want to push systemd on us at the baremetal level where developing, non-standards-compliant software such as itself can inflict the most damage and elicit the most free work from the community for the glory of the architects
633[03:58:19] <epony> darkmeson your points are valid
634[03:59:15] <epony> I think time will either improve on the state of the usefulness, or result in a competing improvement rewrite (with potentially other quirks but at least solving sysV this time for real)
635[03:59:24] <darkmeson> shorter form: the Qubes OS approach (appvms) and/or MINIX3 approach (nearly everything in userspace, somewhat similar to microkernel approaches) is the actual way forward
640[04:00:57] <darkmeson> We can actually do Qubes-like things with Debian, but it can only be as stable as (say) a Xen configuration with a simple init at the baremetal
641[04:02:00] <darkmeson> Linux is working its way toward the latter, albeit in a slightly different way (pvops, UML, etc - kernel nesting, essentially)
644[04:04:10] <brianherman> i like qubes os approach i wish they could get it working with kvm though
645[04:04:14] <darkmeson> epony: and as far as systemd goes, it was totally reinventing the wheel. we already had things like runit, monit, etc and had for a long time
646[04:04:19] *** Quits: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
647[04:04:35] <ryouma> i am getting no answers, and i am in no hurry, so i will just stick with stretch for an indefinite time and maybe the problem will get fixed, i guess. no big deal.
648[04:04:58] <ryouma> or i will install that haveged thing
649[04:05:12] <ryouma> (as long as it does not affect luks)
650[04:05:16] <darkmeson> ryouma: I guess you could replace the sshd with a script wrapper that dumps and strace to a file on permanent storage somewhere and see where it stalled
651[04:05:24] <ryouma> i do not run ssh
652[04:05:52] <ryouma> i just wanted to make sure if i upgraded that it would boot
653[04:06:30] <darkmeson> that's always up in the air with systemd too. especially because of the infinite wait thing
655[04:07:21] <darkmeson> also get in the habit of the habit of adding 'nofail' to anything not critical to be mounted at system boot
656[04:07:23] <ryouma> that was my q
657[04:07:55] <epsilon> i hate systemd for failing bring up network services on bootup, especially vpn or interfaces
658[04:08:11] <epsilon> didn't happen with init
659[04:08:30] <ryouma> i have nofail on boot home big. but i think it does not stop the thing where systemd does not boot if a disk is not avail.
660[04:08:35] <darkmeson> Personally, between the network managers causing so many problems and systemd's nonsense, I ended up inadvertently reinventing the old network management and sysv init in rc.local
661[04:08:49] <ryouma> oh i have it on swap also
662[04:08:51] <themill> feel free to take this elsewhere, thanks
663[04:09:11] <ryouma> were my questions off topic?
664[04:09:16] <darkmeson> which, of course, I have to sentry with a dot lock file, because I have to also have an @reboot in the system cronttab to guarantee it fires
665[04:09:26] <themill> ryouma: no, you're not actually getting answers, however
666[04:09:27] <epsilon> network manager is first thing i uninstall usually
668[04:09:40] <darkmeson> for some reason, systemd also doesn't like to reliably run rc.local when it's enabled, and no, that's not Debian-specific, sadly
669[04:09:50] <annadane> i sort of trust debian to patch the more annoying parts of systemd but... *shrug*
670[04:10:37] <darkmeson> epsilon: network manager wasn't too bad, until you start using openvpn, tinc, and other tunnel users that create their own interfaces. then it freaks out (long-standing bug reports, and still unfixed afaik)
672[04:11:24] <darkmeson> annadane: I think they were the first to disable the dangerous defaults of systemd-resolved to google's dns, so I guess that says something
673[04:11:42] <darkmeson> Unfortunately, no distro has done anything about the infinite wait problem afaik
674[04:11:49] <themill> darkmeson: last request to stop spewing nonsense, thanks
675[04:11:56] <darkmeson> so it's a sad necessity to know about the init=/bin/sh trick
676[04:12:19] <epsilon> a collegue has ubuntu and I couldn't get network manager to establish simple openvpn tap connection, ended up teaching him how to do it in shell. It was a good lesson, still he wants to be a network admin
677[04:12:29] <darkmeson> ...just to get in and remove an entry from /etc/systemd or similar just to make the system bootable
680[04:13:18] <darkmeson> epsilon: some people swear by wicd, but it and network manager both failed miserably on this rca 2-in-1 (intel's cherry trail SoCs that they refuse to support for some reason)
681[04:14:04] *** Quits: rrttyy (~rrttyy@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
683[04:15:18] <darkmeson> basically, they're not smart enough to unload and reload the underlying modules when necessary (much less detect the "when necessary". even though pinging the configured gw works for 90%+ of use cases)
684[04:15:25] *** Quits: Rubin (~rubin@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
685[04:16:25] <darkmeson> Sadly, it's been a recurring theme for the entire existence of wifi, and thus I've had to have my own "fixer" script daemonized to unblock it
687[04:16:55] <darkmeson> It wasn't until this system that I finally had enough incentive to bring all the bits together into a full replacement though
688[04:17:30] <epony> darkmeson these issues are not unique to Linux or a particular distribution though (wifi and init systems)
689[04:17:35] <darkmeson> A long-standing, unfixed issue in apparmor profiles for the tor system instance was the primary motivator for systemd-like solution
691[04:18:45] <darkmeson> There again, no idea why it's such a problem to add /etc/tor/hidden_service allowances to the apparmor profile, but it's still unfixed on at least Debian and Ubuntu
693[04:19:21] <epony> basically you describe a specific use case not ideally served or being the priority of the respective software, so your own custom solution proves 100% efficient in your case (same applies to custom system management in lieu of configuration / change management toolkits)
694[04:19:46] <darkmeson> and yes, I'm picking on Debian (and Ubuntu) here, but that's the bits that relevant to this channel. If you want me to rant about Fedora, or OpenSUSE, or whatever, I could do that too. They've all given me reasons for this approach :)
695[04:19:51] <themill> darkmeson: please report bugs using reportbug; #debian is not for bug reports
697[04:20:52] <darkmeson> epony: no, it's more simple than that. packages have maintainers, and hidden services are core to Tor. It stands to reason that anything reported that hinders the package's core functions would be fixed in a reasonably timely manner
699[04:21:14] <darkmeson> themill: again, general apparmor issue, not related to apparmor itself
700[04:21:20] <epony> darkmeson I've had to create and maintain custom scripts to reset interfaces and networking, and set it in a scriptable manner for various environments, and shell scripts are quite useful (as always)
701[04:21:45] <themill> darkmeson: you are asking for a file to be in a package. It won't magically appear there on its own
702[04:21:54] <darkmeson> there's no reporting for that and a blackbox bureaucracy preventing doing more than air grievances if/when it's applicable to the topic at hand
703[04:22:20] <darkmeson> themill: as I said, it's a long-standing issue that was reported ages ago and still exists
704[04:22:27] <themill> bug number?
705[04:22:52] <darkmeson> can't really get that for you atm. as I said, a browser will kill this thing (i915 bugs)
710[04:26:08] <darkmeson> It's been pretty...interesting...just trying to get one tweaked to run on a 2G systen without killing it from OOM and disk thrashing
716[04:29:53] *** Quits: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
717[04:30:11] <darkmeson> I'm probably going to have to revise the Xephyr/Xnest portion of my sandboxing solution to hide some features and/or resort to Xrdp or Xvnc, but that'll likely require a lot larger, contiguous block of time than I had today
720[04:32:41] <darkmeson> I guess to sum it all up, Piling abstraction layers on abstraction layers for portability and stability is a trap we all fall into even once we know better.
722[04:33:55] <darkmeson> The intention wasn't to paint a bad picture of Debian, specifically, but to remain as topical as possible. At least as much of a motivation in my abstractions was to hide away differences in the way distros handle things since I've historically liked to distro-hop a lot
727[04:39:36] <darkmeson> Then I stuck with OpenSUSE and Ubuntu for the longest time, and used Debian on baremetal since it was stable and could be extremely minimalist (because complexity at the baremetal == more reboots, which should never happen)
735[04:40:41] <darkmeson> rather, rebooting baremetal shouldn't happen. And be glad if you can't identify with that, because it means you're either too young to identify with it, or you don't deal with excruciatingly slow reboots from disk arrays with staggered spinup, etc
738[04:42:06] <epony> darkmeson I've ran various OSes concurrently for different work loads and tasks sets, typically 3 at a time, now reduced to 2, for more than 10-15 years each. I've never had a problem with reboots and have no problem rebooting as often as weekly and sometimes daily.
739[04:42:10] *** Joins: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip)
741[04:42:32] *** Quits: JPT (~jpt@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
742[04:42:35] <darkmeson> I'm getting a little out of that mindset with these embedded things we're using now and their fast nand and eMMC interfaces, but we're still not quite there yet with process checkpointing and so forth, and that interruption to the workflow is a big problem of its own
743[04:42:54] <darkmeson> epony: note that I said the baremetal.
744[04:43:10] <epony> unreliable boot up and system ready state is an ultimate problem
745[04:43:14] <darkmeson> Rebooting a vm is lightning quick since everything effectively remains in ram
752[04:45:05] <andmyaxe> question about the stretch->buster upgrade: do I need to do anything special when /etc/apt/sources.list was generated by cloud-init? it has a comment at the top saying that "modifications made here will not survive a re-bundle"
753[04:45:14] <epony> darkmeson how are you using X nesting?
756[04:48:54] <darkmeson_> epony: and that's why my first employer in my professional career had a system that hadn't been rebooted since I moved to high school
757[04:49:00] <darkmeson_> ^_^
758[04:49:02] *** Quits: darkmeson (~darkmeson@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
763[04:50:03] <darkmeson_> 15 YEARS of uptime, and I got the honor of shutting it down. And even then, it was only shut down because we were moving on up to a better facility
764[04:50:54] <darkmeson_> The funny part is that it was running an ancient version of Fedora of all things
765[04:51:33] <uptime> "honor"???
766[04:51:46] <darkmeson_> excuse me, I guess it was still redhat back then
771[04:53:36] <darkmeson_> uptime: don't get me started. I also crashed their primary dev machine with a simple, recursive script with a faulty condition because they couldn't be bothered to let me impose some sane limits
778[04:55:56] <epony> darkmeson_ I actually recall installing and running RH 4-9 and it was one of the systems used these days at work..
779[04:56:14] <darkmeson_> annadane: Today might not have been the best example of it, and this will probably come of as a bit narcissistic, but people with questions definitely want me around
783[04:57:01] <darkmeson_> and btw, channels like this can be reasonably expected to be high traffic in one form or another, and idle conversation (that isn't TOO wild) serves to keep those of us with the answers closer when someone DOES pop in
784[04:57:02] <epony> But the long uptime is considered a failure waiting to happen any moment, without a successful boot up after it due to hidden hardware boot up failure.
785[04:57:29] <darkmeson_> annadane: so if there's some specific breach of protocol, feel free to air that instead of that passive-aggressive crap
786[04:57:40] <annadane> what? i'm not being passive aggressive
787[04:57:43] <darkmeson_> otherwise, /ignore the people talking and move on
788[04:57:46] <annadane> i legitimately enjoy stuff like this
789[04:58:05] <darkmeson_> see, now that comes off as disingenuous
790[04:58:14] <ryouma> either irony or sincerity. not passive aggression. was my take.
804[05:00:14] <epony> those years were.. difficult for RH in terms of reliability and security
805[05:00:15] <darkmeson_> I wasn't supposed to have access, and I never told them, but they had a gaping hole for me to get in through on the intranet side
806[05:01:13] <darkmeson_> In hindsight, I probably should have said something, but they wouldn't even let me isolate the corporate network from the guest network, impose 802.1x on the ethernet ports in the commons, or the like
812[05:02:05] <darkmeson_> They'd just hand-wave it away as we have more important concerns, despite my protests about how little of my "precious" time it'd actually take to implement
813[05:02:08] <epony> (which is what I would have done immediately on the spot, no time wasted)
814[05:02:21] <darkmeson_> themill: fair enough, in this case
816[05:03:05] <darkmeson_> the point was that I would've expected something like Debian to hit 15 years uptime, but redhat/fedora always having been various levels of bleeding edge rarely lasted months for me
826[05:05:27] <darkmeson_> epony: as it turns out, they had a massive data breach that gained media attention < 10 years ago, but (thankfully) I'd parted ways long before then, so no reflection on me
829[05:07:28] <darkmeson_> unlike situations like the Debian one I lead off with, where I defended their original decision to move to systemd only to have them prove the opposition totally right in the most brutal way possible :/
830[05:09:02] <epony> darkmeson_ good for you, depending on the role and maintenance mode for the respective set of systems, reboots may be part of the review and continuous reliability model, so.. don't be so fixated in a certain set of operation modes, but allow flexibility and assess for most appropriate strategy (and look for new ideas from other systems and methodologies, there's always something new or nice to learn and apply where actionable / meaningful). Rigidity is
831[05:09:03] <epony> not an optimum or an advantage.
832[05:09:09] *** Joins: magyar (~magyar@replaced-ip)
836[05:10:57] <darkmeson_> whelp, looks like one drop in several hours of this and other interactive, highly network-centric processes, so r8723bs on this Z3735F-based 2-in-1 is doing better than my toshiba satellite does witha primo intel chip. pretty impressive, considering the sdio code is still pretty fresh
837[05:12:36] <darkmeson_> epony: definitely get that, but I'm in a position to reciprocate by saying that flexibility can just as easily be a double-edged sword
840[05:13:48] <darkmeson_> I've always been more of a generalist turning polymath, who just so happened to know a lot about Linux since it was developed alongside me way back when
841[05:13:56] <epony> (to a certain extent) for example, distro-hopping is not flexibility, but desktop trials / search for some other package management method
842[05:14:35] <darkmeson_> That being said, I still couldn't tell you how to use awk, because I learned sed, shell scripting, and know a myriad of other ways to do the same thing, even if potentially less efficient
844[05:14:55] <annadane> actually speaking of systemd i had nvidia-persistenced.service (i think) fail earlier when installing nvidia-driver, no idea what that's about, but it seems to be fine now
851[05:16:31] <darkmeson_> I was actually hired for my first big-time professional gig for my Linux "hobby", and my degree actually counted against me a little
852[05:16:34] <magyar> are debian repositories for buster down?
860[05:18:32] <annadane> magyar, seems to be ok for me, change your mirror?
861[05:18:34] <epony> remember tldp :-)
862[05:18:36] <ecbrown> magyar: not sure what "debian repos" you mean -- i just apt updated and it was successful
863[05:18:43] <annadane> i'm using deb.debian.org, which is a redirector
864[05:18:51] <ryouma> um, does debian allow you to have 15y uptime? don't kernels get security patches?
865[05:19:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1507
866[05:19:09] <darkmeson_> looks like it's fine here, according to debootstrap
867[05:19:41] <ryouma> my impression was if kernel upgrade, then reboot at some point
868[05:19:56] <darkmeson_> magyar: I've had a few open hotspots and other networks that blocked me for some reason. That's one of my better reasons for keeping Tor around
870[05:20:19] <ecbrown> ryouma: why would a computer *not* be able to run for 15 years (in principle)
871[05:20:24] <darkmeson_> Regular connection doesn't work, switch to Tor. Tor doesn't work, and then you know it's either down, or someone is up to something nasty
877[05:21:15] <ryouma> ecbrown: kernels have something like system call um, offsets, and running code will need to have those in sync. so you have to reboot. or so. is what i heard.
878[05:21:21] <darkmeson_> magyar: the same principle applies nonetheless. Tor forces a different route, so anything problematic in the current one may not be that way
879[05:21:21] *** Quits: torbo (~user@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
880[05:21:24] <ryouma> unless there is hotswapping of kernels
890[05:23:40] <annadane> even after an apt update?
891[05:24:12] <themill> !show sources.list magyar
892[05:24:12] <dpkg> magyar: Please pastebin the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*.list. The easiest way to do this is to pastebin the output of: head -v -n -0 /etc/apt/sources.list{,.d/*}
893[05:24:44] <darkmeson_> epony: mostly true. netbsd has had rump kernels for forever, and those are about like the uml gymnastics I used to use to avoid reboots
894[05:24:52] *** Quits: Godaddy (~STMelon@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
895[05:25:10] *** Quits: we6jbo (~we6jbo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
897[05:25:59] *** Quits: brianherman (45f5fe2f@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
898[05:26:42] <themill> magyar: can you also pastebin the output of "apt update"
899[05:28:21] <epony> darkmeson_ yeah, my systems are set to be reboot tolerant, in fact a reboot issues an OS re-install in place (performs auto-upgrades)
900[05:28:54] <magyar> themill: so apt update seems to work >> replaced-url
901[05:29:02] <magyar> but apt-get update was failing
908[05:29:52] <themill> (well, this error is not a difference; apt prompting you about the Suite change is a difference but that was not what you had earlier)
909[05:29:56] <darkmeson_> epony: sounds a bit like what the overlayroot package is for
910[05:30:08] <themill> magyar: the error you had before was because you had a broken sources.list
911[05:30:20] *** Quits: Godaddy (~STMelon@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
912[05:30:33] <magyar> themill: the last time I did an apt-get update was a week ago and it all worked fine
914[05:31:17] <themill> magyar: you might have just hit an ftp.us.d.o mirror that happens to also have security on it by luck. It would only be luck, however.
915[05:31:49] *** Joins: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip)
916[05:32:01] <magyar> themill: could be, it seems to work now, so I'm a happy camper, thank you
919[05:34:54] <epony> darkmeson_ haven't heard of it yet, using mostly the generic methods provided in OpenBSD here for auto-upgrades.. it's trivial to setup and with a minimum of effort you can ensure a known state (matching the compiled distribute ready sets)
920[05:35:28] <epony> would be fun to learn how to do the same with Debian
950[05:52:51] *** Quits: Soo_Slow (Soo_Slow@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
951[05:54:00] <darkmeson_> epony: overlayroot just automates a few steps. Most of it boils down to things like: overlay /sysroot overlay lowerdir=/,upperdir=/.sysroot.rw,workdir=/.sysroot.work,nofail,private,X-mount.mkdir=0700 0 0
958[05:57:09] <darkmeson_> Replacing actual / would just push that into the initramfs during the initial setup and add a couple steps (like making sure all fs dependencies are mounted somewhere first), but that's trivial enough with the modularity in about any distro today
961[05:58:11] <darkmeson_> Just a tiny scriptlet dropped in the right place, an initramfs regeneration, and maybe kcli doctoring and grub conf regeneration
964[05:59:34] <darkmeson_> I'm mostly using that example on here as part of a larger solution to approximate certain android and XPrivacy security features on lowmem systems were virt other techniques is too impractical
965[06:02:05] *** Quits: v01d4lph4 (~v01d4lph4@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
966[06:02:46] <darkmeson_> It could be used with lxc to test for updates too though. That being said, it'd be the masochistic option compared to lvm, btrfs, etc snapshotting, but it's possible
967[06:04:18] *** Quits: cfoch (uid153227@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
968[06:04:20] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
970[06:05:20] <darkmeson_> overlayroot is mostly intended for live media afaict, but it (or the technique anyway) would/could grant the same sort of snapshotting in a storage stack-agnostic way, and I know I would've loved to have had it back when I was building clusters
979[06:12:48] <Henry151> hi #debian. I have just sat down at my laptop to run an apt search "thing" and got a response "The value 'stable' is invalid for APT::Default-Release as such a release is not available in the sources"
986[06:14:28] <Henry151> any idea why this would have happened? i saw a headline saying something about a new version of debian coming out so i assume related.. any help resolving much appreciated, i do not want to upgrade yet until i get home because i am currently traveling and cannot afford to have anything not work at the moment
987[06:14:59] <Henry151> (tho already something seems not to be working even though i didn't try to update or upgrade)
991[06:18:47] <ckur13> need to update your apt repository, then you can get debian 10 edit /etc/apt/sources.list change stretch to stable, save the file and run apt update & apt dist-upgrade
992[06:20:49] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1009[06:30:37] <Henry151> um, i tried a sudo apt update...
1010[06:30:49] <Henry151> i did not want to upgrade to debian 10 yet
1011[06:31:02] <Henry151> do i have to in order to download the program i'm trying to download?
1012[06:31:36] <nemo_nemo> exit
1013[06:31:41] <Henry151> i really do not want to attempt to upgrade at all on this slow internet connection while i'm away from home, i just needed to install vncviewer to access one of my remote machines
1016[06:33:54] <winircuser-745> Hello! I am upgrading to Buster from Stretch. So I issued `apt upgrade` and it got completed successfully. But then I issued `apt dist-upgrade`, all the packages got downloaded and it started unpacking/installing stuff so I locked my XFCE session (Ctrl-Alt-L) and now I see only a blinking cursor on screen. Here's the screencast replaced-url
1017[06:34:35] <winircuser-745> I am not able to shift to any of the vts too (Atrl-Alt-F{x})
1018[06:34:38] <darkmeson_> blinking cursor means either X11 died and couldn't be regenerated, or you ended up on a different VT somehow
1019[06:34:38] <jmcnaught> Henry151: you have to take specific steps to upgrade from Debian 9 to 10 (stretch to buster), it won't happen if you upgrade your packages as long as your sources.list is correct
1020[06:35:20] <darkmeson_> winircuser-745: in situations like that, I usually try to ssh to it to see if it's even alive
1022[06:35:37] <jmcnaught> Henry151: your sources.list should point to 'stretch' and not 'stable'. If you have 'stretch' you stay on Debian 9.
1023[06:35:52] <Henry151> ok, thanks jmcnaught
1024[06:36:04] <winircuser-745> darkmeson_: I think X is upgrading in the background. Now my strategy is to wait it out till the dist-upgrade gets completed. But without any screen I have no idea how much to wait...
1025[06:36:05] <darkmeson_> winircuser-745: assuming it is, you'd probably want to try "sudo systemctl restart graphical.target" unless you have unsaved work or something
1028[06:36:39] <Henry151> jmcnaught: i'm looking at my sources.list and it's saying stretch everywhere, nowhere does it say stable
1029[06:37:07] <winircuser-745> darkmeson_: SSH sounds good! Thanks! BTW do you know how much time dist-upgrade should take?
1030[06:37:15] <darkmeson_> I don't think I've ever had it kill my existing X11 session, but solid plan nonetheless. Suggestion for worst case remains the same though
1035[06:37:56] <winircuser-745> jmcnaught: I'm not going to abort the dist-upgrade mid-way
1036[06:38:13] <winircuser-745> I just don't know how much time to wait
1037[06:38:23] <darkmeson_> (not the least of which being that dpkg likes to fail in the middle because someone didn't account for specific conditions and scriptlets are treated as totally pass/fail
1038[06:38:31] <jmcnaught> winircuser-745: I know, you're trying to do the opposite. Does your computer have a disk activity light?
1039[06:38:45] <jmcnaught> winircuser-745: can you ssh in from another machine?
1040[06:38:49] <darkmeson_> also because they stall on user input at various points unless you passed the right options
1042[06:39:23] <winircuser-745> jmcnaught: Sadly, disk activity light went off 3-4 months back :(
1043[06:39:41] <darkmeson_> that being said, never attempt a dist-upgrade in a terminal directly on X11. Do it in a screen session if nothing else so it doesn't get hosed if your X session does
1044[06:39:44] <Henry151> is there somewhere else in my machine that i need to make sure it says "stretch" and not "stable", other than /etc/apt/sources.list ?
1045[06:39:54] <winircuser-745> winircuser-745: Yes, I have a friend's Windows box from which I can SSH
1046[06:40:57] <winircuser-745> jmcnaught: After SSH what should be the next step? Checking `top` for apt-get progress?
1047[06:41:27] <darkmeson_> Henry151: everything else should be updated for you, save for that and entries in sources.list.d
1048[06:41:51] *** Quits: v01d4lph4 (~v01d4lph4@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1049[06:41:59] <jmcnaught> Henry151: you're fine, you're not going to accidentally upgrade to buster
1050[06:42:06] <Henry151> i'm fixing entries in sources.list.d now
1064[06:46:50] <Henry151> the error message about mp3splt has been happening for ages but i was still able to update, instlal, etc so i didn't bother fixing it, i can just delete the mp3splt line from my sources.list i don't even need it any more.
1070[06:49:51] <Henry151> it looks to me like i need to change the value of "APT::Default-Release" from "stable" to "stretch" but i'm not sure how that would be done if it is even what i need to do.
1077[06:52:03] <jmcnaught> winircuser-745: I guess that looking for the apt-get process is maybe the best you can do, I don't know of a way you can reattach to that session unless you were using screen or tmux
1078[06:52:04] *** Quits: ckur13 (~ckur13@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1089[07:02:52] <winircuser-745> jmcnaught: I have one small query. I connected that Windows box to the Debian machine using LAN cable. Now how do I find the IP of that Debian machine to put in PuTTY?
1124[07:26:12] <Henry151> winircuser-745: specifically "The best method would be to add a router with DHCP in the mix" -- you may have a hard time doing it with a direct lan cable between the two machines, but if you plug them both into the same router, you can look at the router admin page and see the ip address for connected devices
1131[07:27:57] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1132[07:28:22] *** himcesjf_ is now known as him-cesjf
1133[07:28:47] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1134[07:29:30] <Henry151> jmcnaught: I'm seeing /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00local:APT::Default-Release "stable" when i run grep -ri stable /etc but i'm a little afraid to tinker with something that i don't understand, can you help me to know if changing that "stable" to "stretch" might be a good idea?
1145[07:32:05] *** Quits: Donatas (~Donatas@replaced-ip) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1146[07:34:06] <Henry151> it only consists of that one line pasted in the grep output above -- i just searched my bash history and see that i created it while trying to install some backport, probably following some guide, a very long time ago
1147[07:34:35] <elwisp> change it to stretch if you want to stay on stretch then
1148[07:34:41] <Henry151> i just adjusted it to say "stretch" instead of "stable" and it seems to have fixed my issue, in case someone else encounters similar problems i think that did the trick
1149[07:34:58] <elwisp> :)
1150[07:34:58] <Henry151> thanks, yeah, i'll be upgrading as soon as i get home to my fast internet, very excited
1151[07:35:06] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1153[07:36:09] <Henry151> i just can't afford to get stuck with a broken system here 200 miles from home with slow internet and no secondary machine in case i screw this one up somehow.
1175[07:49:08] <nekr0z> Hello all! I've upgraded to buster and have no sound since. /proc/asound/cards has the card I want, but pulseaudio doesn't seem to see it. Can you advice where to look next?
1183[07:56:18] <diogenes_> nekr0z, is it listed here: aplay -l
1184[07:56:28] <nekr0z> Solved! 'sudo apt remove timidity' and pulseaudio immediately recognized the card. Wonder what's so different in buster compared to stretch in that regard.
1185[07:56:37] <nekr0z> diogenes_: yes, it was listed there
1191[07:58:01] <nekr0z> Will need to look into timidity compatibility more since I do need it installed, but the problem is located now so the path is clear. God, I hate Poettering! ;-)
1192[07:58:56] <OS-51870> :Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services - see replaced-url
1193[07:59:01] <OS-51870> what does it mean
1194[07:59:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1507
1195[07:59:28] <dob1> you need to register your nickname
1197[08:00:07] <OS-51870> I registered it yesterday
1198[08:00:26] <winircuser-745> Hello! I am upgrading from Stretch to Buster. I have already issued the dist-upgrade which made my display blank. So now I have SSHed from another machine since I don't want to force power off the update. Now After SSH into the said Debian box I see 0% CPU activity for dpkg and apt-get. I think it's expecting some user input which I can't see due to blank display.
1199[08:00:33] <dob1> OS-51870, you are not logged
1206[08:02:17] <dob1> OS-51870, it's better that you change your password
1207[08:02:35] <winircuser-745> How do I get my display back so that I can proceed with the update or if that's not possible how do I answer the dpkg/apt-get questions using SSH connection so that upgrade can complete successfully?
1208[08:02:52] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1209[08:02:57] <Ticho> dob1: you'll have to make a unit override in /etc/systemd/system/ and add the extra dependency there
1210[08:03:10] <uptime> OS-51870: Now you'll want to do /msg nickserv set password NewUniquePasswordHere
1211[08:03:10] <Wulf> winircuser-745: kill the processes and continue through ssh?
1256[08:23:54] <andy|> Hey. I have a problem with dummy interfaces in debian buster. In earlier versions the dummy interface was created when `modeprobe dummy`. I have an `auto dummy0` interface in /etc/network/interfaces.d/dummy.conf but that doesn't seem to do anything anymore. I have to manually add the interface with `ip link add dummy0 type dummy` and then run `ifup -a` to add the configuration to the interface. Any clues here
1269[08:29:16] <winircuser-745> Wulf: So I killed the running apt-get and dpkg processes. Then I proceeded with apt upgrade and it complained about broken install (as expected) and suggested to run `apt --fix-broken install`. Running that threw this file being locked error: replaced-url
1274[08:29:46] <darkmeson_> and|: 'lsmod |grep dummy". if that doesn't show anything, "modprobe dummy". if it errors, you don't have the module, otherwise, lsmod again. still nothing? check /etc/modprobe.d for blacklist lines for it
1291[08:32:35] <darkmeson_> winircuser-745: I could've sworn I saw someone say it already, but run fuser against the lock to see if a process still has it open
1292[08:32:44] <darkmeson_> if not, you just delete it manually
1293[08:32:59] <andy|> darkmeson_: dummy module is loaded. I have tried running `modprobe -r dummy` and `modprobe dummy` but no dummy interface is created. `lsmod | grep dummy` returns `dummy 16384 0`.
1294[08:33:03] <themill> no, do not delete the lock file
1295[08:33:10] <uxfi> hi
1296[08:33:14] <uxfi> IS debian 10 Buster out?
1297[08:33:19] <Wulf> uxfi: yes.
1298[08:33:19] <uxfi> officially?
1299[08:33:22] <Wulf> uxfi: yes.
1300[08:33:24] <uxfi> ok
1301[08:33:33] <darkmeson_> alternatively, run apt-get dist-upgrade or similar. it'll almost certainly erorr out immediately, but it might clean things up automatically if there's no actual dpkg holding the lock
1317[08:37:29] <blackflow> I wonder why Wayland was chosen as default. It's still not ready. That mouse is lagging and stuttering to the point it becoming unusable.
1318[08:37:34] <darkmeson_> winircuser-745: that's...not the lock file...
1319[08:37:46] <themill> winircuser-745: that says that it's showing you a needrestart prompt and that is safe to kill and move on
1320[08:38:05] <themill> darkmeson_: orly.
1321[08:38:17] <Wulf> winircuser-745: is there a "-new" file, and what does fuser return there?
1322[08:38:44] <Wulf> sysopen(my $fh, $this->{filename}."-new", … flock($fh, LOCK_EX | LOCK_NB) … error("$this->{filename}-new is locked by another process
1323[08:39:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1514
1324[08:39:02] *** Quits: mibo (~mibo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1325[08:39:12] <Wulf> oh, then your paste should've said "-new"
1326[08:39:52] <winircuser-745> Wulf: Previosuly I hadn't executed fuser with sudo but now I did and now `fuser /var/cache/debconf/config.dat` says 2318
1327[08:40:08] <Wulf> good. Kill that process.
1328[08:40:08] <winircuser-745> I think that's the pID of running process I gotta kill?
1329[08:40:10] *** Quits: root2 (~root@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1330[08:40:10] <themill> which is needrestart as I said
1332[08:40:15] <darkmeson_> themill: ok, maybe. I could've sworn it created a file with literal .lock in the name, but I must be getting my wires crossed with another pm
1333[08:40:44] <darkmeson_> at least, according to what I'm seeing dpkg-reconfigure holding open
1334[08:41:25] <winircuser-745> themill, Wulf thank you! Looks like it fixed the issue!
1343[08:42:58] <andy|> darkmeson_: it doesn't seem like my /etc/modprobe.d/dummy.conf `options dummy numdummies=8` is respected. When I run for example `modeprobe -r dummy && modprobe dummy numdummies=1` the interface is populated...
1374[08:46:27] <zoredache> RedMercury: probably would depend on the bug. If there is a security bug, it should probably be reported. Or a critical data lose bug. A minor functionality bug that is corrected in the newer release, or upstream probably wouldn't get fixed.
1375[08:46:58] *** Quits: r00t (~r00t@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1376[08:47:06] <RedMercury> well, when i capture it kills my machine due to oom, so kinda data loss?
1427[09:00:34] <ThiefMaster> did something change in the debian 10 openstack image when it comes to SSH? i rebuilt my test machine (which worked fine with debian 8 and 9) using the debian 10 image, and can't ssh to it (connection is closed right after "SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent" when doing ssh -v)
1434[09:01:59] <ThiefMaster> hm, in the console I see "Failed to start Execute cloud user/final scripts. See 'systemctl status cloud-final.service' for details." - but of course i can't run that command since i can't get an interactive shell...
1508[09:25:54] <Wulf> I believe that debian changed its logo several years ago. Where can I find the old logo? I tried searching the web, without success.
1509[09:26:38] <miskatonic> may a user fix policies of apparmor, or does this require the intervention of a superuser?
1510[09:26:52] <Wulf> miskatonic: I think you need to be root.
1511[09:27:14] <Wulf> but it would make sense to me if users could set policies for their own programs.
1524[09:32:01] <Wulf> miskatonic: I don't see how firefox is (or ever was) unusuable. Sure, it had some performance issues. But currently I'm very happy with it.
1530[09:34:02] <miskatonic> all necessary extensions of firefox became unavailable with the abandon of XUL, especially pentadactyl
1531[09:35:12] <Wulf> Yeah, it took some time until extension authors released new compatible versions
1532[09:35:27] <meisteris> chrome engine is only usable in the form of vivaldi browser, but it's ugly in terms of licence and privacy. As it is partly proprietary skin on top of partly proprietary engine, which is owned by google. Still, firefox is better, if one is prepared to dive into about:config for a while :)
1567[09:45:27] <colo-work> hmm, after my upgrade to buster, redshift ("Adjusts the color temperature of your screen"; not the amazon postgres fork) seems not to have an effect any more.
1598[10:00:24] <afidegnum> hello, i m mixing the command syntax, what's the correct for certbot ? | certbot -d domain.com --certonly | is that correct ?
1599[10:01:42] <blackflow> afidegnum: no manpage to check that?
1600[10:02:08] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1688[10:41:07] <solrize> i'm confused, this has happened to me twice on separate machiens. i upgrade a stretch machine to buster by fixing sources.list, apt-get update, apt-get upgrade, apt-get dist-upgrade, reboot and it still seems to be running stretch even though sources.list is modified, run upgrade and dist-upgrade again gets a lot more stuff
1689[10:41:21] <solrize> is that weird?
1690[10:42:35] *** Quits: yonder (~yonder@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1707[10:56:26] <themill> aLeSD: you don't. If you need newer tools, use a newer release. (You could feasibly do this in a virtualenv, but perhaps it's time to upgrade to a supported release?)
1720[11:05:32] <Matt12345> I upgrade a lxc container from jessie to stretch then stretch to buster but I still have deprecated interface name like eth0. networkctl doesn't offers ens3 interface. How could I switch to previous name interface to the new one please?
1722[11:06:23] <Wulf> I prefer deprecated names over "predictable" interface names...
1723[11:07:02] <netcrash> I have a machine not setup by be that has a vlan interface named "vlan32" since the vlan is 32 , how did the guy placed the interface name like this?
1730[11:08:45] <Matt12345> because I am in a container, it doesn't make sense I think. The host is on Jessie but uses the new interface name.
1731[11:08:54] <blackflow> Matt12345: there's no initrd in the container. You sure those names aren't coming from the host? iirc there's no udev in lxc? and it's udev that does the renaming.
1753[11:16:32] <Matt12345> So, if I understand properly, I do not need to switch from the predictable interface name because, as we are talking about a container, I can define it by myself.
1754[11:16:38] <Matt12345> Am i correct?
1755[11:16:48] <Matt12345> *switch to the predictable interface name
1756[11:17:30] <blackflow> Matt12345: predictable naming is done on the host, by udev, for hardware NICs. That does not affect your containers. those are bridges and virtual nics.
1757[11:18:09] <blackflow> eg. bridge br0 will always be br0. veth0 will always be veth0, there's no udev rules to rename those, as those are always predicatbly the same.
1758[11:18:10] <Matt12345> blackflow, thank you very much for your help, I understand better!
1763[11:18:55] <blackflow> the whole point of renaming is to avoid naming confusion when there are multiple NICs. eth0 means nothing. One boot it can be NIC 1, and another it could be NIC 2
1766[11:19:29] <Junior> Am I late for the Buster party?
1767[11:19:29] <blackflow> so "predictable" really means using PCI attributes, MACs and other parameters, to predictably attach one name to a physical device.
1768[11:19:31] *** Quits: catsup (~d@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1772[11:20:15] <Wulf> blackflow: problem is, those "predictable" names aren't predictable at all. When I see a random piece of hardware with only one nic, I was able to predict that the name is "eth0".
1773[11:21:00] <Wulf> Now I would need to e.g. get the next best interface with a default route
1775[11:21:18] <blackflow> Wulf: actually it's predictable. You can inspect it with udevadm info, and the follow the default rules established by default NamePolicy which is kernel,database,onboard,slot,path in that order
1776[11:21:37] <blackflow> so you will know exactly which of those will be used for the name on next boot.
1777[11:21:39] <sunzero> BenNZ: heh u mean bindeb-pkg
1778[11:21:56] <sunzero> replace a make-kpkg
1779[11:22:03] <sunzero> BenNZ: from which package is bindeb-pkg
1789[11:23:58] <blackflow> Wulf: don't be dense. you know very well what I'm talking about.
1790[11:24:17] <plantroon> omg those buster designs are so refreshing. The grub background for example :D
1791[11:24:17] <blackflow> but then who cares. feel free to use net.ifnames=0 if that suits you better.
1792[11:24:31] <Wulf> It should be called "stable" interface names. Because that's what they are. Not "predictable".
1793[11:25:06] <Wulf> "enp0s31f6" is the answer btw :)
1794[11:25:27] <blackflow> Wulf: if you showed me your udevadm info output for that NIC, I would've told you exactly which one would be used by default.
1797[11:25:52] <Wulf> blackflow: what's the command?
1798[11:25:54] <Junior> plantroon: I have this problem installing Buster. Basic commands like 'usermod' or 'reboot'/'shutdown' don't work. The files are still there, it's just a problem with the PATH variable or something. Did you also have this or is it just me?
1799[11:26:17] <blackflow> Wulf: udevadm info /sys/class/net/<NIC>
1800[11:26:21] <Matt12345> Junior, just you
1801[11:26:22] <jelly> Wulf, they're not even stable if you have mutable PCI layouts, like on many servers
1823[11:33:07] <Wulf> blackflow: ID_NET_NAME_PATH=enp0s31f6 where does "enp0s31f6" come from?
1824[11:33:19] <Junior> I've done multiple installs now, it's weird. Maybe something's bugged with my iso but I didn't do anything with it. Meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
1825[11:33:42] <Haohmaru> Junior did you run sha sum on it?
1833[11:36:09] <blackflow> Wulf: so you see, it's very much predictable. But yea you have to plug it in first so the drivers and udev can construct the name from the rules given.
1834[11:36:39] <blackflow> if you only have one NIC and want it to always be eth0, use net.ifnames=0 in your kernel command line, problem solved.
1835[11:37:18] <blackflow> but if you had mutliple nics and wanted ethX, you better tie them down with custom udev rules based on their MACs.
1837[11:38:18] <Junior> Haohmaru: *a cold sweat appears* lemme just... That's a good question
1838[11:38:41] <blackflow> Wulf: also, for extra internet points, write a .link systemd-networkd unit that matches the MAC and names it whatever way you want, it's even simpler than using udev rules.
1839[11:39:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1548
1840[11:39:02] <Haohmaru> i've had an .iso that broke after copying it over the network
1841[11:39:21] <mureena> To normal users this way to name things doesn’t matter at all. People who deal with this stuff however should learn and deal with it.
1843[11:39:40] <Wulf> blackflow: I'm unable to parse my interface name even with the docs you linked me. On most of my system I simply disable that feature. In the rare case that I do have multiple interfaces, I used to use udev rules to give the interfaces nice names based on the mac address. I didn't setup such a system for quite some time now.
1844[11:40:29] <Junior> But did the ISO break completely or did you have something similar like me?
1845[11:41:00] <blackflow> Wulf: depends how buggy BIOS is. I've rarely seen ethX switching upon boot, but.... I _have_ seen it. always did the precaution of tying them down to MACs, until systemd came along which did it for me.
1846[11:41:34] <Haohmaru> Junior the installation was failing somewhere in the middle with no obvious clues
1847[11:42:10] <Haohmaru> on another one, it was saying that it can't read from the "medium", so i burnt it on 4 different CDs
1848[11:42:19] <Wulf> blackflow: On a router with 5 ethernet interfaces, I can't really remember where "eth3" goes to.
1849[11:42:24] <Haohmaru> that is, while installing packages
1868[11:47:20] <blackflow> Wulf: in your case, the rule is "prefix [Pdomain] sslot [ffunction] [nport_name | ddev_port]" so en (for ethernet NIC) + p + 0 (PCI domain) + s + 31f6 (slot) . Now, en p and s are understandably, but why 0 and 31f6? That's BIOS determining. So that names is based on physical location (PCI slot) of the NIC on your motherboard.
1871[11:49:14] <blackflow> Wulf: which means, what jelly suggested earlier, is if you (un)plug some other hardware somewhere, your BIOS might reorder something and poof the predictable name changed. But those are edge, buggy cases that should be fixed in the BIOS.
1874[11:49:39] <blackflow> there were some bugs in systemd in the past too, but afaik those are fixed by now (unless moar crop up)
1875[11:50:14] <jelly> blackflow, if you merely plug a card, no. If you change how PCI bus layout looks, yes.
1876[11:50:42] <blackflow> jelly: there was a bug (and report on systemd GH) in the past where someone unplugged their nvidia GPU and NIC changed name.
1892[11:55:22] <blackflow> unfortunately. but also, edge and buggy cases. I'd say to be perfectly sure, match against the card's MAC and assign a name you want. via udev rules, or .link units. I haven't heard yet that a NIC could change its MAC by itself :)
1893[11:55:31] <jelly> Wulf, that's not the only benefit, but it's pretty useless for a single-wired-iface-and-nothing-else case
1915[11:59:13] <jelly> Ecco, tracker.debian.org/packagename is a good start
1916[11:59:19] <blackflow> people seem to think RH and systemd cabal are forcing anything. lolno. they just develop software. your distro maintainers (whom you should be blaming and yelling at) are guilty of building your distro the way it is ;)
1917[11:59:21] <aadam> I have downloaded windows 10.ISO how do I make bootable usb from debian to install windows using usb
1918[11:59:32] <Ecco> jelly: thanks
1919[11:59:52] *** Joins: Rond (~Rond@replaced-ip)
1920[11:59:54] <Ecco> So it won't be part of buster?
1921[12:00:16] <jelly> blackflow, they are forcing a LOT of things, and Debian maintainers for systemd fix some of the dumber and more incompatible choices made by upstream
1924[12:01:31] <dgp> blackflow: It's like rolling a lot of core linux userland components into one upstream controller by redhat might be a bad idea or something..
1927[12:01:43] <blackflow> jelly: c'mon nobody forced anything on debian, but debian boards, members, maintainers. the same "upstream is forcing X" applies to anything. This wayland buggy thing for example which is for some reason default. the kernel upstream that wants everyone to ride the latest kernels and don't care much about LTS ones.
1933[12:02:13] *** Quits: well_laid_lawn (~Jean-luc@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1934[12:02:13] <jelly> for the last 2-3 years.
1935[12:02:31] <blackflow> I've read it. and personally I don't have a problem with systemd. I just find it weird that anyone thinks upstreams are forcing anything.
1942[12:04:22] <jelly> blackflow, I'm not commenting on it being a problem, or whether it's suitable for a purpose, but if you track Fedora and RHEL7 and 8 you see there are design choices and default settings that are not necessarily optimal for other distros like Arch or Debian
1948[12:06:44] <blackflow> dgp: over the years Debian has dropped packages that have proven to be often breaking, hard to maintain, insecure, abandonware, .... .
1949[12:06:46] <jelly> blackflow, the choice of builtin defaults is inherently "forcing"
1952[12:07:24] <m1sosoup> @aadam: this isn't really a topic for this channel, but the only reliable way to do that i've found is WoeUSB, you can find it on Github
1953[12:07:32] <dgp> blackflow: yeah, good luck dropping something like systemd.. you are basically forced to pull in any changes they make or maintain your own fork
1954[12:08:35] <aadam> ok thanks
1955[12:08:48] <blackflow> dgp: what breaking changes are you thinking about btw? what did they do now?
1957[12:09:43] <blackflow> jelly: I'd disagree, as long as it's reconfigurable run-time and/or a compile-time option that doesn't require complex code changes, patches, backports, ...
1958[12:09:48] <netcrash> Sorry for the newb question but, how can I name a interface of a vlan like vlan42 ? it's based on interface ens3
1959[12:10:01] *** Quits: dselect (~dselect@replaced-ip) (Quit: ouch... that hurt)
1960[12:10:13] <dgp> blackflow: I'm not thinking about any in particular. You're saying distros aren't forced to do anything by upstreams but it's pretty clear in a lot of cases the only option other than doing what the upstream wants is to maintain your own fork
1996[12:18:32] <blackflow> dgp: well, see, that's the distros "you had one job" thing. Otherwise what's teh point of distros if they'll all use upstream code and be literally, exactly all the same.
1997[12:18:57] <blackflow> so I won't share a tear if a distro has to spend time and money to adjust. it was their choice from day one.
1998[12:19:37] <jelly> blackflow, it's a matter of perspective. Anything that changes existing workflow or settings can be percieved as forced. Moreso if it does not have a clearly stated longterm reason.
1999[12:20:18] <blackflow> jelly: yeah but you can't blame RH for building software for themselves first, thinking of their own use cases first, "forcing" others to recompile with different options or even patches.
2003[12:21:06] <blackflow> because it works both ways. there was drama in gentoo few years ago when openrc had to change some binary names because debian -- downstream user of openrc -- asked them too, even though debian switched to systemd....
2004[12:21:10] <jelly> I can think and say their ro / is a dumb idea from the start.
2091[13:14:22] <Matt12345> [nftables] Does someone interstand why I have ct state { established } drop in the configuration file am I still able to established a connection from the host? The input policy is set to drop. :(
2093[13:14:58] <Matt12345> [nftables] Does someone interstand why even if I have "ct state { established } drop" in the input part of the configuration file am I still able to established a connection from the host? The input policy is set to drop. :(
2094[13:16:08] <jelly> kreyren, testing does not get a security repo until very late in the release cycle, after the freeze
2119[13:24:36] <xenlo> P1ersson (~P1ersson@replaced-ip) a rejoint #debian y via PXE and netinstall with a preseed file. And in that preseed, there is only reference of my local repos.
2150[13:31:12] <EmleyMoor> I upgraded my router to buster, but it drops to the initramfs prompt because it can't find the logical volumes for partitions other than / and /boot. If I type vgchange -ay gw00b there and then Ctrl-D, it continues booting. How do I make sure, on future reboots, I don't have to do this?
2151[13:31:35] <xenlo> pja yes
2152[13:31:41] *** Quits: xcm (~xcm@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2153[13:31:55] <jelly> xenlo, you can avoid setting default gateway in the network config, then
2154[13:32:03] <jelly> aand set it up afterwards
2155[13:32:23] <jelly> xenlo, or you can tell d-i to use a http proxy that only allows what you want to allow
2156[13:32:24] <xenlo> The only stuff not mirrored is the sources
2200[13:39:44] <pja> EmleyMoor: Yes, I’m saying: try updating the initramfs. I’ve had a similar problem in the past that was solved by doing just that & it probably can’t hurt.
2201[13:40:27] <EmleyMoor> pja: Oh, just update? Worth a try I guess
2202[13:40:51] <pja> Exactly. Might sort it.
2203[13:40:56] <pja> Did for me anyway...
2204[13:41:01] <rdz> hey all. i noticed that sudo.service is masked in Debian Buster. Does that mean i don'tn have to 'systemct restart sudo.service' when adding a new file to /etc/sudoers.d/
2205[13:41:01] <rdz> ?
2206[13:42:27] <sc_> just upgraded a webserver from stretch to buster, only issue is php7.2 and php7.3, anyone have any notes on upgrading to the latest versions, I seem to be stuck in stretch
2265[14:00:18] <pja> EmleyMoor: Is grub installed to a real partition? A little googling suggests that if it was installed onto the physical lvm volume then that can leaqd to this kmind of breakage.
2290[14:06:31] <Ticho> colo-work: that's a long-standing issue being uncovered a bit more - personally, I feel very dirty whenever I have to install haveged on a small router box
2300[14:12:44] <EmleyMoor> pja: GRUB is installed to the MBR
2301[14:13:14] <colo-work> Ticho, apparently, qemu can provide entropy to its guest OS by supllying the host's /dev/urandom, which would be good enough for me. but it's gonna be an adventure to teach ganeti how to do that.
2302[14:13:44] <colo-work> (and I'm also questioning the sanity of this approach when a freshly booted node is supposed to get 40 instances online at once...)
2327[14:21:28] <Koopz> if the kern.log repeatedly reports a network interface being up and down a ton of times, sometimes working for a few hours/days how likely is it that the network card of the server is dying?
2328[14:21:34] <pja> Ubuntu LTS was fine, but 19.x won’t boot IIRC.
2329[14:21:35] <epony> s/platform/test sample/
2330[14:21:47] *** Mathisen__ is now known as Mathisen
2333[14:21:52] <pja> Suspect buster might have the same problem.
2334[14:22:33] <pja> EmleyMoor: Only thing I can suggest is to hack a vgchage into the local lvm scripts & do an initramfs update so it gets insterted into the initramfs.
2335[14:22:38] <zbychuk> I am thinking to bay a new komputer, as my old one has i7 3770k, 32GB RAM, no discrete graphics
2336[14:23:08] <pja> It’s a hack, but it’ll solve your immediate problem & a stray vgchange shouldn't hurt anything in the future.
2390[14:47:42] <petn-randall> brutser: That looks like a cosmetic ACPI bug in the firmware. Unless you have any noticeable issues from that, you can safely ignore it.
2391[14:48:17] <brutser> petn-randall: ok thanks
2392[14:48:41] <Ticho> colo-work: the virt-rng driver?
2393[14:49:06] <petn-randall> brutser: Updating the BIOS might remove the error, which is a good idea in general.
2394[14:49:30] <brutser> petn-randall: ok, i thought i actually did update the BIOS recently, but i'll check the version
2396[14:50:06] <colo-work> Ticho, once you supply the emulated device to the guest, Debian (even jessie and stretch) auto-detect the device and load the virtio-rng driver, appropriately configured
2397[14:50:33] <DonAlex> help.. cannot seem to set date
2398[14:50:45] <DonAlex> date -s "2019-07-08 13:49"
2399[14:50:45] <DonAlex> date: cannot set date: Invalid argument
2400[14:51:50] <Ticho> colo-work: cool - I use the same for my windows VM on my work laptop :)
2410[14:53:59] <colo-work> my cluster is configured like this in regard to kvm_extra now: kvm_extra: -object rng-random,id=rng0,filename=/dev/urandom -device virtio-rng-pci,bus=pci.0,addr=0x1e,max-bytes=1024,period=1000
2423[14:55:48] <petn-randall> Akuw: I've used i-doit in the past, which is unfortunately not packaged for Debian.
2424[14:56:00] <tarzeau> i'm using my shell script: replaced-url
2425[14:56:20] <Akuw> some web app?
2426[14:56:39] <tarzeau> requires to have a /etc/serial with a serial number, ours are encoded L-YY.MM.serial (so i know from who (letter) what year and month it was bought)
2427[14:56:52] <tarzeau> it generates html files, you put in some directory, BAM web app
2462[15:06:37] <jelly> Akuw, there's a half dozen different IT and network equipment inventory management systems.
2463[15:06:55] <brw> anyone here use debmirror? I'm trying to figure out how to get the buster archive signing keys going (the current machine that I am running debmirror on is on Stretch)
2464[15:06:59] <emyd> hi! i'm installing debian on a matebook which has no ethernet card. it shows a dialogue for the wifi driver and when i select "iwlwifi" and hit enter it just redraws it. should i try the graphical installer or the one for buster? (this is the one for 9.9)
2465[15:07:22] <Akuw> jelly: hi, can you recomend some?
2466[15:07:24] <tarzeau> jelly: i tried them all, they didn't do what i needed, now there's inventory (shell script :)
2467[15:07:29] <jelly> emyd, iwlwifi requires non-free firmware to actually run
2470[15:07:52] <tarzeau> the goal was, have an overview over machines (one machine, one page)
2471[15:08:02] <jelly> emyd, if you need wifi during installation, use unofficial debian-installer images with firmware included
2472[15:08:05] <jelly> !firmware images
2473[15:08:06] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages are available from replaced-url
2474[15:08:35] <tarzeau> Akuw: if you try mine, and like it, i'm happy to make a package of it, and improve it. but no idea what your needs are for an inventory of machines...
2476[15:08:52] <maze88> Hi, what laptop would you recommend I buy (I'll be installing Debian 10.0 on it!)? my two main options are Dell Latitude 7390 and System76 Galago Pro...
2477[15:09:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1560
2478[15:09:05] <jelly> tarzeau, does it keep track of software, db users and dependencies?
2479[15:09:27] <tarzeau> jelly: it keeps track of software. db users no, dependencies of what?
2480[15:09:33] *** Quits: Darby_Crash (~Darby_Cra@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2481[15:09:35] <themill> doitux_: your mixture of licences is not nice (AGPL stuff mixed in with GPL_
2482[15:09:41] <tarzeau> jelly: the last parts you mention are easy to add
2483[15:10:05] <tarzeau> jelly: have a look at it, i really like it since it's made so easy. patches/improvements welcome
2486[15:10:15] <tarzeau> i even had a version of it for macOS, but not windows
2487[15:10:26] <jelly> tarzeau, systems depend on services. Services depend on machines and database schemas (users) and software installs. database schemas depend on databases.
2488[15:11:53] <tarzeau> jelly: as i said, the syntax INSIDE the thing is: command "Title" "command to get the data" . so add your services, schemas, users, software, be done
2489[15:12:24] <jelly> i-doit can do all that but I would NOT recommend it to my worst enemy
2490[15:12:31] <tarzeau> jelly: our systems are general purpose (partly cuda enabled) linux workstations (also hpc nodes) with a desktop and local screens (1-4)
2491[15:12:52] *** Quits: v01d4lph4 (~v01d4lph4@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2492[15:13:15] <jelly> there was a french open source product, name escapes me
2500[15:15:48] <tarzeau> indeed, the linux version is not fulfilling our needs. we need to know in which building machines are, and what age they have incl. all technical details
2501[15:15:50] <zbychuk> epony: not realy for windows. I want to edit my videos with it using DaVinci Resolve
2502[15:16:00] <jelly> Akuw, ^ Id investigate along those lines
2503[15:16:43] <jelly> tarzeau, honestly we have an excel sheet for all the server and storage hardware and that works better than i-doit or any piece of sw
2505[15:17:16] <tarzeau> jelly: we wanted soemthing that runs regularly on the machines, and puts it on some central place accessible linked from our active monitoring system by host
2506[15:17:45] <emyd> thanks jelly. i got debian installed but without wpasupplicant so i need to install it via usb from another computer and set it up manually
2507[15:17:58] <tarzeau> jelly: we've got a wiki with some css/html trick that depicts 1/2/4 U rack units nicely though for that part
2508[15:18:02] <maze88> Hi, what laptop would you recommend I buy (I'll be installing Debian 10.0 on it!)? my two main options are Dell Latitude 7390 and System76 Galago Pro...
2509[15:18:10] <tarzeau> to keep track of rackspace and location, and serverroom location
2510[15:18:19] <epony> zbychuk yes, probably a good system for that too
2534[15:25:01] <themill> wr: you need to ask oracle.
2535[15:25:08] <tarzeau> wr: as i said, there's no buster packages yet from them
2536[15:25:13] <jelly> tarzeau, except noone supports vbox but upstream really, it's a bit of a mess
2537[15:25:29] <wr> themill, yes i asked on channel, wait mode still
2538[15:25:44] <tarzeau> same with vscode, google-earth, google-chrome, and teamviewer...
2539[15:25:45] <greycat> assuming "bionic" is an ubuntu release name, you should expect a bit of danger or manual tweaking will be necessary if you try to use that on a non-ubuntu system
2552[15:33:43] <wr> tarzeau, greycat yes since they had a line Ubuntu 18.04 / 18.10 / 19.04 / Debian 10, it got me confused and started to think that the bionic/buster repo was the same, but guess not, the thing is that don't have buster then...
2554[15:34:24] <greycat> If something is labeled "works in ubuntu 18.04 or debian 10" then that's a reasonably good sign.
2555[15:34:59] <greycat> You're still going to have to ask the repository's maintainers for help if it doesn't work, but that's much better than blindly installing something from an Ubuntu-only source.
2556[15:35:10] <wr> greycat, now i have installed vbox works, but i don't know if i should remove this
2557[15:35:27] <greycat> If it's working, then why are you asking?
2558[15:35:55] <wr> greycat, because the repo is another and i have buster in my system and not bionic
2559[15:36:51] <wr> greycat, i'm pretty unsure on this but since no one replied yet on vbox channel
2583[15:42:34] <jan6> bustero: how about you say WHAT odd thing happened instead of "something odd" ;P
2584[15:43:14] <fredl> 'v python-ipaserver
2585[15:43:20] <fredl> ,v python-ipaserver
2586[15:43:21] <judd> Package: python-ipaserver on amd64 -- sid: 4.7.1-3
2587[15:43:36] <bustero> i installed buster on my laptop yesterday and something very odd happened when i used k3b to burn an iso onto a CD. A small window appeared halfway through the burning telling me to kill other applications that were using the CD before continuing. I did so and my MATE session was terminated. I logged back in and re-start k3b and the burning went fine
2588[15:43:37] <fredl> argh
2589[15:43:50] <greycat> fredl: I bet it's easy to backport
2623[15:48:02] <bustero> if any of you people here can replicate the issue, it would great. Having your MATE session terminated because you want to burn a iso onto a cd is a major pain in the neck
2624[15:48:33] <petn-randall> bustero: Can't you just decline it?
2625[15:48:47] *** Quits: magic_ninja_work (~sparkie1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2627[15:49:41] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2628[15:49:51] <jmcnaught> Eryn_1983_FL: I don't quite get what you mean but if you have a problem with your sources you can put /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* onto replaced-url
2639[15:52:10] <greycat> bustero: I don't know MATE specifically, but many Desktop Environments try to do an auto-mounting thing when they see a CD inserted in the drive, and this can interfere with burning software that needs exclusive control of the drive.
2644[15:52:35] *** Quits: Crapoto (~Crapoto@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2645[15:52:55] <greycat> If you can figure out a way to disable MATE's CD auto mounter, either permanently or temporarily, without logging all the way out of MATE, that should be sufficient.
2646[15:52:59] <jmcnaught> Eryn_1983_FL: that is not complete, see the example here: replaced-url
2658[15:56:31] <Sia-> Hi, i'm on gnome with pulseaudio and want to create shortcut to mute/Umute the usb mic. with alsamixer is possible but debian 10 the als utils isn't installed by default
2659[15:56:56] <greycat> ,file bin/alsamixer
2660[15:57:01] <judd> Search for bin/alsamixer in buster/amd64: alsa-utils: usr/bin/alsamixer
2667[15:58:21] <judd> Search for usr/bin/amixer in buster/amd64: alsa-utils: usr/bin/amixer
2668[15:58:31] <blackflow> I'm scripting this one for my i3-wm controls
2669[15:58:33] <themill> !apt suite changed
2670[15:58:33] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, or you use 'testing' in your sources.list, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
2732[16:19:10] <nimbius> hi debian, im trying to set up a home router, but whenever I add a static interface for my internal network, it adds a default gateway for that interface.
2733[16:19:13] <nimbius> how can i prevent this'/
2734[16:19:22] <pja> sheldor_the_conq: Try setting the country explicitly?
2735[16:19:38] <Wulf> nimbius: how do you do that?
2736[16:20:00] <greycat> nimbius: remote the "gateway" line that you added in /etc/network/interfaces if you don't want it...
2737[16:20:03] <greycat> remove*
2738[16:20:32] <nimbius> greycat: i only have network/netmask/broadcast and IP set.
2739[16:20:47] <sheldor_the_conq> pja: here's the cfg packer file used replaced-url
2741[16:20:50] <greycat> Then what makes you think it's changing your default route? What does "ip route" say?
2742[16:20:51] <themill> jim: I assume you've cranked up the logging and looked at what it says?
2743[16:21:06] <foxmask> i'm trying to upgrade from debian 9.9 to 10 and meet an error with emacsen-common package install replaced-url
2744[16:21:33] <nimbius> greycat: when the interface comes up, it sets the network 0.0.0.0 to a UD type route of 10.66.66.1, which clobbers the default route im getting from my provider interface.
2752[16:22:29] <pja> sheldor_the_conq: It might be. Packer probably hasn’t been updated for buster yet.
2753[16:22:55] <whislock> nimbius: Please provide your network configuration via paste.debian.net.
2754[16:23:08] <sheldor_the_conq> pja: maybe in fact it tought that my config file was outdated
2755[16:23:16] <emyd> currently downloading debian-live-10.0.0-amd64-standard+nonfree.iso which has 1.3 gb. is standard gnome or just a plane debian w/o DE?
2807[16:29:46] <themill> foxmask: it just unpacks the files without actually marking the package as installed or running the maintainer scripts.
2808[16:29:57] <emyd> currently downloading debian-live-10.0.0-amd64-standard+nonfree.iso which has 1.3 gb. is standard gnome or just a plane debian w/o DE?
2809[16:30:02] <whislock> nimbius: Not going well?
2810[16:30:04] <themill> foxmask: basically, you installed the package which created that directory, and then got apt to install the package again
2843[16:33:29] *** Quits: Jerrynicki (~niklas@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2844[16:33:43] <whislock> nimbius: Can you do me a favor here? Can you change your enp2s0 stanza to just the following: the iface line, and "address 10.66.66.1/24". Remove netmask, network, and broadcast.
2845[16:33:47] <emyd> installing via wifi is always a hassle. usually need to copy the drivers over from another computer via another usb ..
2846[16:34:04] <sheldor_the_conq> pja: yeah i'm adapting it
2847[16:34:06] <nimbius> whislock: trying now
2848[16:34:11] <jim> want to try it as an experiment to see if it works?
2849[16:34:18] <J_C> emyd: the non-free netinst image SHOULD have all of the drivers you need to download everything
2850[16:34:21] <emyd> jim: 64bit
2851[16:34:29] <greycat> dpkg, no, firmware images buster is <reply>A buster amd64 netinst installer with non-free firwmare is in <replaced-url
2852[16:34:30] <dpkg> greycat: okay
2853[16:34:33] <jim> ok one sec
2854[16:34:33] <pja> NetTerminalGene: Only if you want to use kernels you build yourself IIRC.
2855[16:34:42] <themill> dpkg, cookie greycat
2856[16:34:44] * dpkg spins the wheel of knowledge and ponders... qotd304... . o O ( Why is mysqld now using 100% CPU? ) <jelly> because your query-fu is weak? <colo-work> because mysql's optimizer-fu is weak? <greycat> because your CPU is puny? <abrotman> Because MySQL .. <colo-work> because infinite loops take some time to complete?
2857[16:34:46] <greycat> themill: happier? Now someone just has to update it for every point release.
2885[16:38:38] <greycat> sunzero: if you want to completely disable autoremove forever and ever no matter what, you can put the line APT::NeverAutoRemove "."; in a new file inside /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/
2891[16:39:25] <sunzero> greycat: with what name??
2892[16:39:29] <sunzero> ops
2893[16:39:31] <sheldor_the_conq> pja: still same message by changing us to fr
2894[16:39:32] <jim> and hopefully you don't have to copy drivers and what not
2895[16:39:38] <greycat> sunzero: I used "99local" as the name
2896[16:39:43] <pja> sheldor_the_conq: :(
2897[16:39:51] <sheldor_the_conq> yeah
2898[16:40:01] <greycat> you can name it whatever will work for you, and it's probably a good idea to assume it uses the run-parts naming restrictions (NO DOTS)
2899[16:40:01] <sunzero> greycat: what you mean
2900[16:40:06] <sheldor_the_conq> they're using vagrant but not me
2901[16:40:11] <pja> maybe there’s a sub-config for that locale that isn’t being set?
2902[16:40:15] <greycat> sunzero: you get to name it
2938[16:53:10] <hexyul> i'm confused, when I do a backup of, say, `/etc`, `/var/lib/dpkg`, `/var/lib/apt/extended_states` as per the upgrade guide, should I follow symlinks ?
2978[17:04:09] <jadax> but it failed on minisspd service
2979[17:04:22] <jadax> Failed to start keep memory of all UPnP devices that announced themselves.
2980[17:04:41] <brutser> hi, i got a lenovo t450s and everytime i boot debian 10 with mate, it split the display between the laptop and the monitor (attached with displaycable) - how can i make the monitor become the only display?
2981[17:04:42] <jadax> what should I do about minissdpd?
2987[17:08:08] <factor> What's the difference from debian9 to debian10 Openstack qcow2 image. Debian 10 is finding my cloud-init and running some of the commands(hostname, setting password),but not following all the commands(i.e runcmd: write_file:).
3002[17:13:35] <nimbius> I have dhcpcd running on my router to pull config for the dhcp uplink but its also pulling dhcpd config for the internal network and applying it to the interfaces at the same time.
3010[17:15:30] <webmind> upgraded my laptop to buster, now getting "ListUtil.c: loadable library and perl binaries are mismatched (got handshake key 0xdb80080, needed 0xce00080)" when trying to use perl
3011[17:15:34] <emyd> i wrote the image to the stick with "dd bs=4M if=<iso> of=/dev/sdc". it's no valid boot device and looks empty in fdisk: /dev/sdc1 * 0 767999 768000 375M 0 Empty
3017[17:17:36] <petn-randall> webmind: Either you need to fully upgrade to buster, or you need to update your locally installed libraries (which I guess are installed via cpan).
3018[17:17:47] <emyd> maybe dd jumps over bytes when the outfile is equal to the infile?
3085[17:49:07] <factor> scratch that about the debian10 openstack qcow2 image. While some errors are taking place, more of the commands are working. Will have to look into the package when it finishes. Did notwork much at all yesterday.
3126[18:04:10] <factor> greycat, its seems I need to upgrade my kernel to manage the urandom issue. I'm still using a home made kernel 4.18. Deb10 default is 4.19 which has a CONFIG_RANDOM_TRUST_CPU to fix the entropy issue. Thanks for the help.
3157[18:16:33] <Eryn_1983_FL> well i had a repo set as stable and puppet config tool start upgrading the machine w/o me knowing, i stoped, and then tried to fix it..
3158[18:17:13] <petn-randall> Eryn_1983_FL: I'd continue upgrading then. Guess it's too late to prepare for it, though ...
3159[18:17:20] <Eryn_1983_FL> ive installed all the packages, but mpd and ffmpeg so far will not install.
3168[18:18:10] <dpkg> In order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use replaced-url
3240[18:43:35] <jhutchins_wk> This is very strange: I can scp a 500 byte file to server b, but I can't scp a 28k file, process hangs after creating 0 byte target.
3241[18:44:53] *** Quits: milker4202 (~milker420@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3242[18:44:58] <BCMM> fwiw, i get paulgrmn's first format with LC_TIME=en_GB.utf8 date, and the second format with LC_TIME=en_US.utf8 date
3243[18:45:06] *** Quits: foxmask (uid302052@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3340[19:22:00] *** Quits: Guest5 (ab5b5073@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3341[19:22:11] <metrix> iptables command is not on my new Buster machine after upgrading, but dpkg --get-selections shows it installed... How do I use iptables?
3352[19:28:20] <lns> What's the best way to call a script after a certain package has updated (I'm a sysadmin, not pkg maintainer)? I want to copy files from an updated package to a chroot to keep them in sync.
3361[19:31:20] <Nao> After upgrading to Buster my "gateway" line in /etc/network/interfaces stop work. Default route is added, but it routes to 0.0.0.0
3362[19:31:22] *** Quits: SoreGums (uid22927@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3363[19:31:34] <greycat> Nao: what does "ip route" actually say?
3371[19:36:13] <mohsen_1> I attempted to install debian 10 twice today, I faced with this error: adweita-icon-theme verify checksum failed at both times
3512[20:26:56] <greycat> The 169.254.0.0/16 line is perfectly fine and has nothing to do with your default gateway. That's the "default" line above it.
3514[20:27:11] *** Quits: puxavida (~comptekki@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3515[20:27:51] <greycat> However, it appears that you have munged your outputs beyond all recognition, which is going to make it extremely hard for anyone to help you, beyond pointing out "169.254.x.y is avahi".
3608[20:59:44] <Lady_Aleena> Error is shown here: replaced-url
3609[21:00:06] <Rust3dCor3> Hello. Any alternative to kdocker (it just infuriates me). I was using all time alltray on debian 9. Now since I'm on fresh buster I have no access to alltray. Any alternatives?
3610[21:00:10] <LtL> Lady_Aleena: i used replaced-url
3632[21:02:59] <BCMM> greycat: cross-distro interface to package management (including a standard metadata format)
3633[21:03:22] <greycat> BCMM: *shudder*
3634[21:03:57] <BCMM> greycat: eh, what's wrong with that?
3635[21:04:01] <greycat> Lady_Aleena: you wondered where the ubuntu line was from, so I showed you how to find out -- deal with it however you see fit
3636[21:04:10] *** Quits: Space_Man (~Space_Man@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3637[21:04:46] <BCMM> greycat: obviously you want something specific to your package manager to do anything advanced, or to fix problems. but there's nothing wrong with having a nice simple interface to just install an application...
3638[21:05:30] <greycat> I notice how "problems" are mentioned before "nice simple".
3674[21:12:23] <BCMM> Lady_Aleena: the thing that failed is just a hook that appstream puts in apt, to update its metadata cache. you can probably safely remove the package "appstream"
3677[21:13:04] <BCMM> Lady_Aleena: check what it wants to uninstall with it - it's possible you've just got an apt frontend you've never used. more than one desktop task installs such a frontend, for example.
3681[21:13:41] <Lady_Aleena> From what I can tell, the appstream error is separate from the Ubuntu lines, correct?
3682[21:13:52] <BCMM> (if you want to save a bit of time and never see this problem again. otherwise, just do apt update again, and it'll probably sort itself out)
3700[21:17:28] <BCMM> Lady_Aleena: you will be able to apt-update a bit faster without it, since i think apt won't bother fetching icons without it (which occasionally takes time to download)
3701[21:17:51] <Lady_Aleena> Sorry for taking the long way around, I just wanted to be sure. Updating and upgrading now.
3702[21:18:04] <miskatonic> i will wait until dvd sets are available for order
3704[21:18:32] <Lady_Aleena> I probably won't be able to paste any more errors to a pastebin when Firefox is upgraded to Buster edition.
3705[21:18:41] <BCMM> Lady_Aleena: (yup, just having appstream installed does slow down apt update, since the metadata fetching is triggered by /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/50appstream)
3725[21:22:42] <Nao> jelly, It took me 2 days to figure this out...
3726[21:22:52] <BCMM> jelly: yeah, i don't know how i initially got it in to my head that it was broken, but i've been occasionally doing, like, echo test | pastebinit to see if its fixed, lol. that explains a lot.
3754[21:27:37] <karlpinc> salcedo: Sometimes "apt-cache search alps" (or something) helps find the right package. You may need to enable non-free repo if the firmware is non-free.
3755[21:27:49] <jelly> Nao, maybe take a look at what other old software is lying around
3756[21:27:51] <jelly> !obsolete
3757[21:27:52] <dpkg> If you remove a repository from your sources.list (e.g. removing <dmm>), then you should check what packages you have installed from the other repository. Synaptic and aptitude have a "Obsolete and Locally Created Packages" list. Or, "aptitude search ~o". Note this doesn't include packages that exist in the repo at a different version to the one you have installed; see <not available> <list repositories>.
3758[21:28:20] <sunkan> jelly: The reason I ask is due to a bug in GCC (for ARM) that has been fixed but that causes incompatibility with code compiled with GCC earlier than 7.1 Can I assume that all libraries in debian will work fine together with the GCC version in buster?
3775[21:31:51] <jelly> sunkan, in general, they might be, yes. If it's a well known issue chances are Debian knew about the same bug and rebuilt everything for armel / armhf / aarch64
3776[21:32:23] <sunkan> greycat: Not really sure where to report it though, boost causes GCC to emit warnings about this for example. Can I check if boost is compiled with GCC 8.3.0? (I would assume so since the version has changed since Stretch)
3777[21:32:28] <jelly> sunkan, ask in #debian-arm on irc.oftc.net and point out the actual issue.
3778[21:32:38] *** Quits: him-cesjf (~cesjf@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3782[21:33:00] <jelly> boost gets rebuilt like every month in sid, because of its incompatibility with itself...
3783[21:33:04] <sunkan> jelly: I'll give that a try. Thanks for the help.
3784[21:33:11] *** Quits: MenschZwoNull__ (~MenschZwo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3785[21:33:15] <greycat> Nao: Let me guess... this is a Raspbian system, and you're using an "image" that was prepared by Raspbian, and this "image" installs dhcpcd5 by default, and dhcpcd5 does weird things to your networking?
3860[21:51:55] <linuturk> is there a way to disable unattended-upgrades temporarily? have it call a script or check for some other precondition before executing the actual apt commands? We have some devices that run workloads at arbitrary times, and they'd be sensitive to these upgrades while a job is running.
3861[21:51:57] *** Quits: dokma (~vlatko@replaced-ip) (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
3877[21:58:18] <karlpinc> linuturk: file. It contains config directives you _should_ be able to frob by dropping a file in and out of one of apt's config directories. (At least on squeeze.)
3878[21:58:41] <Gabriel_7> corbean: yes... ?
3879[21:58:52] <linuturk> thanks karlpinc
3880[21:58:54] <corbean> oh ok me too
3881[21:59:03] <corbean> Paris ?
3882[21:59:07] *** Quits: rsx (~rsx@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3883[21:59:44] <karlpinc> linuturk: APT::Periodic::Enable probably needs to be set to 0 (sometimes). You'll need to test... :)
3884[21:59:47] <Gabriel_7> I'm tempted to think the place I'm living in is lightly out topic in here :)
3906[22:04:11] <mataniko> I don't fully understand the upgrade steps around network names. My interface is called eth0, but i have no specific net rules
3907[22:04:25] *** Quits: krabador (~krabador@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3908[22:04:44] <jelly> wtf. Who put colors in my iostat output!?
3909[22:04:53] *** Joins: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip)
3910[22:05:00] <greycat> mataniko: if it's working, you can leave it alone for now, but officially you're supposed to migrate to the new names
3911[22:05:25] *** Quits: pringau (~pringau@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3912[22:05:30] <keith4> since the last systemd update in stable, autologin using agetty --autologin is no longer functional. just starts an empty tty now. I don't know where to begin troubleshooting this. any thoughts?
3922[22:12:35] <flipxyz> I'm studing debian packaging and during the debuild process I'm getting this lintian => I: pcapfix source: testsuite-autopkgtest-missing
3923[22:12:37] <flipxyz> I'm not sure if I understand it correctly. Can I ignore this lintian for simple packages like this one (pcapfix) ? Cause lintian infos (lintian -i) says that I have to be sure that the testsuite will make difference.
4015[22:34:27] <greycat> It says buster firmware images are at replaced-url
4016[22:34:49] <greycat> !wheezy firmware images
4017[22:34:56] <greycat> !stretch firmware images
4018[22:35:03] <greycat> oh, oops
4019[22:35:08] <greycat> !firmware images wheezy
4020[22:35:08] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> images - containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages - for installing Debian 7 "Wheezy" are available from replaced-url
4021[22:35:19] <greycat> And wheezy firmare images are at replaced-url
4022[22:35:57] <mason> Well. Who wants the old stuff anyway. =cough=
4023[22:35:58] <greycat> That's why I went so far out of my way to try to break this cycle.
4024[22:36:35] <greycat> I pointed the main factoid to the ANCESTOR directory from which you can follow current/ or other paths, and explained that. Then I made the buster-specific factoid point to an actual buster release directory.
4066[23:05:49] <Lady_Aleena> Well, I've upgraded, rebooted, and am in my DE; but HexChat won't connect to Freenode. Anyone else have problems with HexChat after upgrading?
4101[23:21:21] *** Quits: krokodeilos (~kroko@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
4102[23:21:25] <tarzeau> miskatonic: the maintainer should have done so. i would've checked what happens when you launch it from terminal, if nothing, what happens when you run ngrep port 6667 while launching it from terminal
4130[23:31:53] <emyd> i'm trying to fix "Could not find a primary drm kms device" - after installing the xserver neither lightdm nor gdm3 bring it up. searched a bit and it seems to be related to wayland
4138[23:36:43] <zerocool> hi guys, when i tried upgrading from 9 to 10 i got errors related to udev, initramfs-tools, the kernel... on reboot will not boot, get kernel panic, when i boot using old kernel cannot fix packages, is this common?
4139[23:36:53] <zerocool> has happened two times for me, different machines