23[00:09:39] <jasonwc> Are the torrents not up yet? I'm getting a "Tracker: [Failure reason \"torrent not found\"] message. I wanted to seed them on my gigabit connection.
60[00:15:38] <joze> is mariadb an option or shall I try postgres?
61[00:15:39] <ssgelm> Nic_Wow: there really shouldn't be a need to re-install
62[00:15:50] <jasonwc> Nic_Wow, It depends whether your sources.list points to "stable" or "stretch"
63[00:15:53] <joze> all those oppurtunities
64[00:15:54] <ssgelm> joze: mariadb is in buster (and stretch)
65[00:16:03] <jan6> Nic_Wow: 6 hours, what are you on, a 15 year old computer?
66[00:16:48] <jasonwc> Nic_Wow, Typically, you don't want your system updating without your knowledge so it's best to specify the release name (stretch) and then upgrade when you're ready. For example, upgrading can break some packages if configuration options changed. See replaced-url
67[00:16:52] <Nic_Wow> No, but it is dying. I use a couple year old Inspiron 15.
68[00:17:04] <tarzeau> jasonwc: i wish there were parts in that document showing how to install openrc safely, and how to disable/get rid of apparmor
88[00:20:31] <ssgelm> oh, well if you use a LUKS encrypted disk and choose to zero the disk (as you should with LUKS) I could see it taking a long time
89[00:20:32] <jasonwc> Nic_Wow, The initial install is always faster than an upgrade because it doesn't use sync writes.
90[00:20:34] <ssgelm> if the disk is slow
91[00:20:46] <jasonwc> Nic_Wow, apt upgrade is heavy on sync writes
95[00:21:26] <jan6> Nic_Wow: using an ssd can speed up things a ton, if you're planning to stick to that computer then upgrade to an ssd might be worth considering, if possible, to reduce the time somewhat ;P (my thinkpad from like, 2011 is very nice and snappy)
96[00:22:09] <Nic_Wow> I'm actually researching getting a new laptop. Something without non-free drivers.
97[00:22:13] <jan6> good
98[00:22:23] <Nic_Wow> Any recommendations for laptops?
99[00:22:29] <jan6> if you're lazy you can buy stuff from purism or such ;P
100[00:22:42] *** Quits: metrix (~metrix@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
101[00:23:22] <Nic_Wow> What do you mean "lazy"?
102[00:23:41] <jan6> they have everything bundled up and ready to go
103[00:23:49] <jan6> instead of you doing research
104[00:24:15] <epony> assemble from parts :-D
105[00:24:27] <epony> (in short, fuck laptops)
106[00:24:53] <wgertler> Nic_Wow: you can get plenty of excellent old thinkpads for dirt cheap
107[00:25:20] <Nic_Wow> Building laptops and keeping them small is super hard.
108[00:25:34] <Nic_Wow> Correct me if wrong, but your talking desktops.
110[00:25:51] <jan6> thinkpad x series is rock solid, and as I said, even my x220 from like, 2011 or thereabouts is very snappy and runs everything fine, except games
111[00:26:43] <wgertler> jan6: ++
112[00:26:56] <epony> better get T series or an entry class "business" (with Radeon discrete or Intel graphics)
113[00:27:09] <wgertler> T series is also pretty tight, at least up to 450 (after that I don't have much experience)
114[00:27:17] <Battaglin> T480 8650U ftw
115[00:27:17] <jasonwc> Unless you need the portability, desktops are easier to build, cheaper, and more powerful.
116[00:27:22] <jan6> don't remember if it was T or L series, which was basically just cheaper versions of the X series
117[00:27:24] <epony> HPs are also passable on the entry business line
124[00:28:16] <vash2511_> My x230 works like a charm
125[00:28:21] <jan6> desktops are good if you CAN use them, plus side is that you can always for example, vnc from a cheapo laptop and continue stuff on the go that way ;P
126[00:28:40] <haze67> is there a PCB overview program for linux that is free with a huge database that has laptops, phones and other PCB overview ?
127[00:29:10] <epony> I hate intel (lenovo) laptops, too proprietary / hardware compatibility issues with spares, batteries etc.
128[00:29:27] <epony> s/intel/ibm/
129[00:30:05] <Nic_Wow> My issue with running fully desktop is that I need a machine I can take places.
130[00:30:26] <magic_ninja_work> I have both. I may swap over.
131[00:30:31] <epony> any entry business line laptop with intel/radeon graphics will work fine
132[00:30:32] <magic_ninja_work> I don't know though, I run a media server and such from it too.
133[00:30:37] <magic_ninja_work> Pretty much just use the laptop for work.
253[01:13:13] <eletronico_hw> the error in shell : sudo chown -R $USER:$(id -gn $USER) /home/roro/.config
254[01:13:22] <jasonwc> Regarding 5.1.6. Module configuration for bonding and dummy interfaces in the release notes, why is systemd being used for network configuration? I have to override a systemd default configuration setting regarding bonding even though I have no intention of using systemd for setting up my network?
315[01:34:04] <tfgbd_> Some OSes like Debian can't even be installed
316[01:34:25] <ectospasm> And it depends on the setup. If you dd an ISO image to a USB flash drive, the resulting filesystem will definitely be read-only.
324[01:36:05] <magic_ninja> So no matter what I do, unless I set up the file system, make it bootable, and put the files on there myself, I can't find a device I can copy files on AND have an OS installer.
325[01:36:08] <ectospasm> If you have a disk image that is some other filesystem, it could definitely have a writable partition as part of it.
326[01:36:12] <tfgbd_> I never used the Debian installer yet.
403[02:01:30] <lembron> no... the good idea is to have backups in place already ;-)
404[02:01:41] <wgertler> fair enough haha
405[02:03:09] <jasonwc> It appears the servers are still updating. I only see a handful of the DVD images and it's missing all the main BD Images
406[02:03:11] <magic_ninja_work> there aren't any updates at the moment, though, right?
407[02:03:24] <magic_ninja_work> I've been tracking Sid as Buster.
408[02:04:01] <Battaglin> Id hoped Budgie was among desktop choices .-(
409[02:04:40] <Sveta> just do not install a desktop, and install budgie package later from the commandline
410[02:04:52] <Battaglin> yeah
411[02:04:54] <jasonwc> There should be no surprises since the contents of the testing repo are simply renamed as stable today. Debian has been in a freeze since March
412[02:04:55] <tabakhase> could someone poke the guy in charge of tagging on docker-hub? - there is a "buster" thats one month old and no "10" tag
421[02:07:43] <cthonic> Battaglin, Budgie is pretty close package-wise to the default GNOME as well. On a fresh install it seems to add ~8 packages to install budgie-desktop.
422[02:08:40] <tfg3> Does debian still ship Qtopia?
427[02:09:34] <Battaglin> bash: reboot: command not found
428[02:09:37] <Battaglin> wth
429[02:09:54] <Battaglin> cthonic: yeah.. I like budgie over gnome a lot though
430[02:09:55] <jasonwc> So, I think those notifications are just to ensure that you don't accidentally update your system by accident from one stable release to another
431[02:10:03] <Sveta> Battaglin, run it as sudo ?
432[02:10:20] <Battaglin> Sveta: dont even work as root
436[02:10:41] <jasonwc> It makes you manually accept each change and then afterwards, you can run apt update without error
437[02:10:47] <cthonic> Battaglin, seems budgie would bring in a lot of GNOME based on those numbers. But it is true that you'd get the rest of GNOME as well
438[02:11:01] <Sveta> jasonwc, I'm glad it allows you to proceed, I don't know whether this is intended behaviour
440[02:11:31] <jasonwc> If you had your sources.list point to stable rather than stretch, the alternative would be updating your entire system without necessarily realizing the choise you are making. This would be particularly problematic if the update was through unattended-updates
445[02:12:52] <jasonwc> " Previous versions of unattended-upgrades defaulted to installing only upgrades that came from the security suite. In buster it now also automates upgrading to the latest stable point release. For details, see the package's NEWS.Debian file. "
446[02:12:55] <tfg3> What happens when stable goes away?
447[02:13:17] <nohop> You guys aware that the "Debian 10 \"buster\" released" link on debian.org is broken?
448[02:13:24] <jasonwc> tfg3, It becomes oldstable
451[02:14:04] <jasonwc> tfg3, Debian releases are supported by the Debian security team for approximately 3 years, and another 2 years from the LTS team. There is even Extended LTS support for select packages.
452[02:14:09] <ssgelm> nohop: it’s in the middle of being pushed out
453[02:14:10] <jasonwc> tfg3, So, you get approximately 5 years of support
454[02:14:22] <nohop> ssgelm: I'm eager! :)
455[02:14:32] <Deihmos> Is buster expected this year?
459[02:14:45] <nohop> Deihmos: Yeah. Minutes from now, I guess.
460[02:14:46] <jasonwc> Sveta, I'm pretty sure it's intended behavior to protect unexpected surprises - particularly from the new unattended-updates behavior
461[02:15:05] <jasonwc> Sveta, It would be quite bad for your system to be automatically updated to a new stable release without your knowledge.
478[02:19:15] <jasonwc> tfg3, The LTS and Extended LTS support is free. Certain organizations that need longer support periods sponsor packages and pay for the time required to prepare security updates. However, the updates are available to everyone.
479[02:19:30] <jasonwc> tfg3, For most users, 5 years should be plenty.
480[02:19:35] <tfg3> Is that for the science?
481[02:19:49] <tfg3> 5 years? Is that all?
482[02:20:31] <phogg> 5 years for free
483[02:20:39] <jasonwc> If you need 10 years of updates, you're probably going to be running CentOS/RHEL or openSUSE
603[03:13:56] <dstaring> That's got to be a joke. You support DREAMCAST (as in the 1998 video game console?) but not RPI generation 1?
604[03:14:01] <dstaring> If you type "apt-check" in your Debian, what does it output? (Possibly have to run /usr/lib/update-notifier/apt-check )
605[03:15:47] <Nic_Wow> aye, to update my OS do I just change all mentions "stretch" to "buster" in '/etc/apt/sources.list' ?
606[03:15:58] <tfgbd_> I don't see THE Dreamcast there on their help pages
607[03:16:07] <Nic_Wow> Should I be worried that it will break my system/apps?
608[03:17:56] <jasonwc> dstaring, Rasbian is based on Debian, and the newest release for The RPi 4 is based on Buster. The Debian page indicates that it will work on all variants, including the first one (but it will not make the best use of the floating point hardware on the first version)
609[03:18:01] <jasonwc> dstaring, See replaced-url
614[03:19:34] <jasonwc> dstaring, Also, "The Raspberry Pi 1's processor falls uncomfortably between the processor families that Debian has chosen to target. While Raspbian solves this to some degree an unofficial port will always give less certainty than an official one. (This doesn' stand anymore for the Raspberry Pi 2) "
615[03:20:35] <jasonwc> dstaring, Yeah, sounds like it does have some binary blobs - "A binary blob used by the GPU must be present on the SD card for the system to boot." + "3D acceleration is not integrated with X or other standard mechanisms and the Raspberry Pi Foundation don't seem to show any interest in doing so. Therefore 3D applications will require Pi specific builds."
634[03:27:38] <dstaring> jasonwc and tfgbd_: Here's the situation: I have a RPI generation 1 and have installed Raspbian on it. It runs, but the more I (attempt) to use it, the more I realize how they have changed tons of random stuff around, breaking even the most fundamental things such as being able to check (with a script) if there are new security updates required to manually deal with. Only after wasting countless $time_units did somebody finally tell me about
635[03:27:38] <dstaring> "apt-check", which does exactly what I've been asking for... but only on "pure" Debian. On Raspbian, they have *deleted it*. Apparently. So Raspbian is worthless to me now.
636[03:27:50] <rant> jasonwc: you're treading a dangerous line saying that
637[03:28:21] <rant> jasonwc: armbian is as you described.. raspbian is a seperate distro just like ubuntu or such, its a complete and seperate repository
638[03:28:52] <rant> armbian however is only an installer and repos with kernels and hw support packages, it actually uses debian repos
639[03:29:20] <rant> the modification and seperate maint of the packages is what makes the difference
640[03:29:59] <echeveria> rant: armbian has some goofy changes to bash, doesn't it?
641[03:29:59] <dstaring> My RPI has spent 5 years in the storage space, only getting to visit the outside room every so often when I attempt to use it for something, only to go back in there soon after...
642[03:30:13] <rant> echeveria: it can't it doesnt have bash in its repos
643[03:30:39] <dstaring> Other than the lack of basic security, it also has no support for disk encryption, which also makes things even more annoying...
644[03:31:11] <echeveria> rant: I swear it had a couple of goofy things changes in the default bashrc
649[03:32:06] <rant> echeveria: they include a couple support packages that do stuff like hardware monitoring, which puts info into the bashrc for displaying stats whne you login
650[03:32:17] <rant> there isnt even a pool/main/b/ on their repository
651[03:32:24] <ryouma> is it legit to upgrade to buster from stretch using apt-get instead of apt?
652[03:32:31] <rant> they have but a handful of packages and they're all specific to the hardware
653[03:32:34] <ryouma> ae there differences from jessie to stretch?
654[03:32:37] *** Quits: electro33 (uid613@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
655[03:32:59] <rant> ryouma: you should always read the release notes and follow the instructions in the Ch4 on upgrades
656[03:33:17] <rant> ryouma: apt and apt-get do behave slightly differently.. but for the most part, yes, you could use either
657[03:33:25] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
665[03:36:08] <ryouma> rant doesn't apt-get already install suggests at least? what is the difference?
666[03:36:17] <rant> you can probably use apt-get with no issues, but the official stance is as it has always been, when upgrading, go to the release notes (chapter 4) on upgrades and follow the instructions
667[03:37:17] <ryouma> rant the ambiguous part is if you want to use apt-get, the note is not clear if it is saying don't use apt for scripting as opposed to don't use apt-get for upgrading and here are the differences.
668[03:37:19] <tfgbd_> can't you just apt-get install apt-check
669[03:38:09] <rant> ryouma: apt shouldnt be used for scripting based on its OUTPUT because its OUTPUT is not consistent.. same reason they say not to parse output of ls
670[03:38:19] <ryouma> rant. agreed. however, there are those who have legacy settings for their apt-get upgrades, including for example conffile settings and so on. it is not clear whether you have to translate that over to apt or if youc an just run apt-get without modification.
672[03:38:34] <ryouma> rant yes that is what it says
673[03:39:12] <rant> ryouma: you should be able to both safely use apt-get for the upgrade as well as safely replace apt-get with apt in scripts provided you are not parsing the OUTPUT of it
674[03:39:44] <ryouma> rant so it is a drop in replacement with all those options and stuff?
692[03:45:08] <rant> s390 on the other hand was supported from 3-7
693[03:45:18] <tfgbd_> Sorry, get those mixed up
694[03:45:29] <rant> now only s390x is supported
695[03:45:33] <tfgbd_> Last time I checked, s390 was supported
696[03:45:35] <tfgbd_> ohh
697[03:45:36] <rant> !s390
698[03:45:36] <dpkg> s390 is a port of Debian, which uses the Linux kernel on IBM System/390 (aka S/390, zSeries) mainframe hardware. It was previously a supported architecture from Debian 3.0 "Woody" until Debian 7 "Wheezy". It has been replaced by the <s390x> port. replaced-url
699[03:45:41] <ryouma> interesting. did not know that processor would affect apt
700[03:45:41] <tfgbd_> There is a difference?
701[03:45:42] <rant> !s390x
702[03:45:42] <dpkg> s390x is a port of Debian, which uses the Linux kernel and provides a 64-bit userland on IBM System/390 (aka S/390, zSeries) mainframe hardware. The s390x architecture was introduced at Debian 7 "Wheezy".
703[03:46:02] <ryouma> i wish apt(1) were named so that it were not a confusion with the generic term
704[03:46:14] <rant> tfgbd_: apparently its the change to a 64bit userland
714[03:49:30] <areyouloco> i just got email from the mailing list that debian buster kust got stable. where can I get it? is it already pushed by ftpmasters?
715[03:49:48] <rant> afaik s/390 is /technically/ a 32bit arch, but does support 64bit registers..
716[03:50:26] <rant> its a rare breed of 32bit machine that can run a 64bit userland on what is ultimately a 32bit processor
717[03:50:51] <ryouma> what does 64 bit mean? address space? registers? what?
718[03:50:58] <ryouma> instructions?
719[03:50:59] *** Quits: dtux (~dmtucker@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
723[03:52:18] <rant> afaik s/390 are technically 32bit, and s390x are technically 32bit kernels with a 64bit userland.. but I never used any of these machines so I really have nfc
724[03:52:47] <rant> the successor of the s390 was the zSeries which ARE 64 bit
726[03:54:21] <rant> ryouma: I have no idea what your apt-get call script is, or why you want to use it.. all I can say is what I've already said... the official support on the matter is to follow what the release notes say
727[03:54:40] <rant> ryouma: if you wanna do it differently, thats up to you.. and you can ask questions if you run into trouble
728[03:55:07] <ryouma> talking in circles about the note about apt-get int he release notes. thanks for your interest.
729[03:55:38] <rant> but personally I wouldnt even try it unless I had a pretty damn good reason.. its just stubbornly doing something other than what is recommended without a need for it, is just silly
730[03:56:36] <whislock> I haven't had the opportunity to mess with an S/390 in about 8 years.
731[03:57:49] <rant> I seen one in a garage when I was doing some work for someone once.. it was gathering dust
749[04:02:28] <rant> the s/360 is some 60 year old relic that looks like the kind of thing you saw in old scifi film with red lights and switches
750[04:02:42] <rant> its not really a computer in the modern sense :P
751[04:03:11] <rant> afaik its not even a hardware spec as such
752[04:03:30] <binaryhermit> ia64 is itanic, right
753[04:03:36] <binaryhermit> err, itanium
754[04:03:41] <rant> as we would know it today.. the s/360 spec assumes very little about the hw
755[04:03:44] <rant> !ia64
756[04:03:45] <dpkg> Intel Itanium Architecture (formerly IA-64) is Intel's *other* 64-bit architecture. Itanium processors are primarily found in HP Integrity servers. replaced-url
757[04:05:00] <tfgbd_> Oh no!
758[04:05:06] <whislock> My mistake, I was working with S/370 analogues, not the 360.
759[04:05:12] <tfgbd_> Don't stop supporting i386
760[04:05:45] <themill> meh there's no hardware out there that needs it
761[04:06:13] <binaryhermit> tfgbd_: *wince*
762[04:06:26] <binaryhermit> and I doubt that i386 is going anywhere soon
763[04:06:37] <tfgbd_> i486 or i686 then
764[04:07:10] <rant> really dropping ia64 was a bit premature judging by the official info from intel replaced-url
765[04:07:54] <tfgbd_> Most of your userbase depends on i486 I think.
766[04:08:20] <binaryhermit> actually, I think the linux kernel doesn't support 386 anymore
767[04:08:30] <rant> yeah the i386 is a bit misleading we haven't actually supported a 386 in ages.. its not possible
768[04:08:47] <binaryhermit> what's debian i386 compiled for
769[04:08:51] * binaryhermit guesses 686
770[04:09:22] <rant> yes we only support 686 or better as of right now from Stretch onward
771[04:09:31] <rant> !i386
772[04:09:32] <dpkg> Debian's i386 port is for some subset of the 32-bit x86 instruction set as has grown organically over the years. From Debian 6 Squeeze onwards, only 586 machines and newer are supported, while from Debian 9 Stretch, only 686 processors will be supported. See replaced-url
821[04:24:43] *** Quits: crtcji (~crtcji@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
822[04:24:49] <Highdude> oof
823[04:24:53] <Highdude> asking people to RTFM
824[04:25:02] <Highdude> what are you thinking :O
825[04:25:20] <ryouma> or update, right?
826[04:25:27] <rant> Highdude: as I told ryouma earlier the policy is the same as always.. you should read the release notes for the suite you're upgrading TO chapter 4 on upgrades, and follow the instructions.. they say to use apt
827[04:25:31] <ryouma> i mean, if you uypdate it probably would not error or ask right?
837[04:27:37] <rant> Highdude: its one of several more recent security features added to the repositories and package managers is all.. its trying to protect you from breakage or unautorized packages
843[04:28:50] <rant> apt is now the newer superset frontend that is shipped in the apt package along with apt-get .. it combines the features of many older commands and adds some new conveniences like sorted formatted output and such
844[04:29:13] <rant> so using it, will require less understanding of the changes
845[04:29:23] <ryouma> i thought release file signing was not new. is it?
846[04:29:56] <rant> not in this release, no.. but there were quite a few changes in our recent history
847[04:30:00] *** Quits: tyranny12 (~blarg@replaced-ip) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
853[04:30:46] <Highdude> and are commands the same between the two or do they differ and i should pay more attention?
854[04:30:52] <rant> to me, in Debian terms, our recent history is spanning 5 suites.. currently Jessie, Stretch, Buster, Bookworm, Sid
855[04:30:54] <ryouma> with apt-get you can do --verbose-versions \ --show-upgraded \ but idk if you can also do in apt. apt-get has scriptable output. otherwise idk.
878[04:34:03] <rant> I am beginning to understand a need for paranoia in computing cause there is a vast threat of data mining and privacy concerns.. but I dont see how knowing I use debian and what packages I download are an issue :P
881[04:34:31] <ryouma> i actually used tor+http and regular repos simultaneously because of an obscure vuln regardign rleases file but idr if that was due to it not being singed. common sense suggests it has beens igned forever.
882[04:34:32] <tfgbd_> Some people can't afford internet
883[04:34:33] <Sveta> people should be aware of it and it should be opt-in, then it is not an issue
884[04:34:34] <rant> I dont see publishing my apt/dpkg logs on a global public scale as an issue
885[04:34:39] <Sveta> it also should be anonymous
886[04:34:42] <Highdude> enough data and it can be used to piece your whole life together
887[04:34:52] <Highdude> thne you have people target you and its weird sometimes
888[04:35:18] <Sveta> if it is not anonymous, someone automatically knows you use debian for photo image processing, and this is probably something not every photographer wants the whole world to know
889[04:35:32] <rant> you're preaching to the choir on the targetting and the reasons for it.. my life has been railroaded for some time due to such things
902[04:37:09] <Highdude> when i think how long ive been on irc i feel old at times
903[04:37:11] <Highdude> lol
904[04:37:14] <Synaptic> buster released?
905[04:37:31] <Highdude> yes
906[04:37:33] <lembron> isnt the point of things like the tor mirror to provide better service for inside-tor-already users, rather then an explicit "putting them into tor" - as in, if you switch on tor to apt youre "doing it wrong" kinda deal.. ((how valid that is is another question))
907[04:37:37] <tfgbd_> I've only been on since 2000 :(
908[04:38:17] <Highdude> i started in about 95-97 when i was a youngster
909[04:38:23] <Highdude> my dad showed me it and i loved it
910[04:38:31] <Highdude> talk to people all around the world then, un heard of
913[04:38:55] <rant> well for me, I had been using Win2k around that time, and went to a news site that had embedded video, fairly new stuff around the millenium.. embedding videos everywhere.. quired a WMP update which left me in a reboot loop, it was the last straw and I went to the store and bought RedHat for $24 and that sucked, so within the 2 years from 2000ish to 2002/2003ish when I wound up here I was searching for the
914[04:39:01] <rant> right fit.. and I came across debian.org from distrowatch and saw the Why Debian? and Social Contract docs and I was sold.
915[04:39:46] <rant> Debian's priorities, goals, and promises were mind blowing to me as a Windows refugee
916[04:39:52] <tfgbd_> I think my cult closed. Ain't no WinCE channels
917[04:40:04] <Highdude> i played around with linux, speccifically redhat and suse around 2001 or so
918[04:40:28] <Highdude> but didnt actually switch for desktop until around 2010
919[04:40:32] <Highdude> and only sometimes
920[04:40:47] <Highdude> but then things happened, and times changed for me
927[04:41:25] * themill searches for the Debian user support question
928[04:41:30] <ryouma> lembron: sorry can you rephrase?
929[04:41:33] <Highdude> they fixed the windows 7 issues, but it seemed like every update it was getting worse
930[04:41:38] <Highdude> i got fed up and back to ubuntu
931[04:41:44] <Highdude> then i learned more and tinkered
932[04:41:56] <Highdude> and ubuntu wasnt for me, but i liked the base so i tried debian
933[04:41:59] <Highdude> and now its my goto
934[04:42:31] <Highdude> even for servers, i used to prefer centos. now i will take debian over anything if i can
935[04:42:51] <rant> the one I had bought was RH 5.2 which was crap.. and from what RH fans have told me, they all seem to admit 5.2 was one of their worst releases.. I tried corel and it was worse, then I found Mandrake 7.x and stayed with it through 8.x it was nice and simple but I realized there was more to linux than I'd ever learn from such a poorly documented vaguely proprietary system (lot of their fancy gui tools were
936[04:42:57] <rant> proprietary), so I went looking for the /right/ OS and I fooled a bit with slackware and it felt close to right but required too much time to configure. and then I found Debian and it had it all.. was well documented, fully open, ready to use out of the box, but allowed for the slackware level of config as desired.
937[04:43:22] <rant> but I digress.. we could b.s. about this in #debian-offtopic :P
938[04:44:30] <rant> Highdude: debian is nice in this regaurd do to overal sane priorities and WIDHE compliant binary packages ready to use
939[04:45:37] <Highdude> lol
940[04:45:39] <rant> though I suppose systemd was one that put the sanity into question.. I'm still not 100% comfortable with that..
941[04:45:54] <Highdude> i was just a kid trying to learn, and at the time my dad thought linux was the devil
942[04:46:10] <Highdude> so it was hard, i had to beg to even let him allow me to get my own hdd and dual boot
943[04:46:54] <rant> they didn't violate the Social Contract as such.. so I have been trying to make due.. but systemd overstepped its scope and boundaries as a sysvinit replacement and offered up more attack surface for bugs and security concerns.. its not ideal in that regard
944[04:46:57] <themill> !apt suite changed
945[04:46:58] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
957[04:49:10] <Tom-_> i checked on sid weeks ago I guess
958[04:49:20] <rant> Highdude: only part of that that annoys me is the loss of /var/log/dmesg and the dependency on it would create issues in situations where the journald itself is broken
959[04:49:25] <Highdude> and how much configuring of packages do you have to do if you do that
965[04:49:54] <tfgbd_> Where is that ARM debian version: replaced-url
966[04:49:56] <Highdude> yea, i noticed that a few weeks back
967[04:50:01] <Highdude> trying to do something with bind
968[04:50:05] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o themill
969[04:50:22] <rant> as a sysvinit replacement its not really bad at all.. its just a bad idea to integrate that init replacement with all this other shit to the point it cant be differentiated anymore
970[04:50:25] <Highdude> and i went the traditional steps i would, editing config files of bind
995[04:58:52] <rant> I was testing it out yesterday to see if I could get it to recognize the difference between Avril Lavigne, Taylor Swift, Hayley Williams and my father's dog :P
996[04:59:13] <rant> I was not impressed with its facial recognition/auto tagging abilities
1003[05:01:06] <rant> tfgbd_: among other things replaced-url
1004[05:01:42] <rant> tfgbd_: its batch manager can do any number of things, rename, convert, edit, etc.. and the digikam then maintains all modified versions of the same file linked to the original
1005[05:02:11] <rant> its an all around batch manager can do any number of things all in one
1020[05:06:56] <tfgbd_> Does digiKam support ARM and SH3?
1021[05:07:10] <Tom-_> Highdude, i have to check more, it doesn't seem probable at this point
1022[05:07:11] <tfgbd_> old gen devices?
1023[05:07:11] <rant> my current handheld is a Galaxy S7 without a sim card.. my only gripe is the stock android rom on it.. ugh.. the hardware is great :D
1024[05:07:33] <tfgbd_> Is there anything cool like XNView Pocket for Android?
1038[05:10:26] <rant> tfgbd_: buster (testing) (graphics): digital photo management application for KDE 4:5.9.0-1+b1: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mips64el mipsel ppc64el s390x
1039[05:10:37] <tabakhase> seems like that guy may be EU tho... so i wont cry until like another 12h... (5am centralEU)
1040[05:10:53] <rant> tfgbd_: I tried it as a guest, but wasn't impressed with that.. guests on such a small device are annoying.. and its not real hacker friendly for changing the native software
1041[05:11:04] <mojikun> /msg dpkg apt suite changed
1042[05:11:12] <rant> mojikun: no space before the /
1043[05:11:30] <mojikun> yeah i figured
1044[05:11:40] <tabakhase> !apt suite changed
1045[05:11:40] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
1049[05:12:12] <dpkg> Stretch is the codename for the current <oldstable> release, Debian 9, released 2017-06-17. "Stretch" is the rubber octopus in Toy Story 3, see replaced-url
1050[05:12:20] <mojikun> !dpkg stretch->buster
1051[05:12:20] <dpkg> Read (at least) the upgrading chapter of the <release notes> replaced-url
1052[05:12:37] <rant> tfgbd_: idk wth the SH3 is, but the sid version of digikam mentions SH4
1053[05:12:59] <rant> erm no, thats a debports for sh4
1054[05:13:03] <rant> !sh3
1055[05:13:06] <rant> !sh4
1056[05:13:09] <mojikun> what is dmo? never heard of third party repos. ubuntu has ppas but on debian never heard any
1057[05:13:10] * rant shrugs
1058[05:13:22] <Tom-_> !dmo
1059[05:13:22] <dpkg> We recommend against using deb-multimedia.org; these unofficial packages are known to cause many hard to debug problems. They are not in Debian either because the they are poor in quality or for legal reasons. See replaced-url
1060[05:13:44] <mojikun> oh. never used that
1061[05:13:50] <rant> mojikun: dmo was put together many years ago when we had lots of issues like dvd encryption, mp3 libs..etc.. that were not available in debian
1062[05:14:00] <rant> its HIGHLY RECOMMENDED AGAINST now
1063[05:14:17] <rant> as it could result in a great deal of breakage and is largely no longer needed
1064[05:14:18] <mojikun> i never needed it. mpv and vlc seem to play all multimedia
1081[05:18:38] <rant> mojikun: meh.. well backports are /allowed/ to bypass normal policy and pull fixes directly from sid, but its all done on a per-package at the maintainers will basis.. they are of less quality you might say
1082[05:19:35] <rant> mojikun: they do not get security updates by the security team, like a ssb you make yourself, they are required to be seperately maintained by whoever made them
1083[05:19:56] <rant> mojikun: which depending on who that was and their level of interest and such.. may or may not be a bad thing
1084[05:20:19] <rant> it could in theory due to the lax policy, make the package more current, and faster updated/patched/fixed than anything else
1121[05:46:53] <Tom-_> although apparently it changes rapidly
1122[05:46:55] <Tom-_> dpkg, bullseye
1123[05:46:55] <dpkg> The release following Debian 10 "Buster" is codenamed "Bullseye" (Woody's horse in Toy Story 2) and will be Debian 11. It is the current "testing" release. Remember that straight after a stable release, all sorts of mess suddenly lands in "testing" and it is best avoided if you don't like debugging things. replaced-url
1126[05:49:21] <Kon-> Congratulations to everyone involved on a great release. There's some exciting stuff happening in Buster! I hope newer users can be made aware of the Calamares installer option
1128[05:49:33] <rant> mojikun: you can also often use a chroot or backport it yourself fairly easily
1129[05:49:42] <rant> mojikun: /msg dpkg ssb
1130[05:49:53] <annadane> isn't calamares a fish dish?
1131[05:49:55] <dstaring> Can somebody help me out? If you type "apt-check" in your Debian, what does it output? (Possibly have to run /usr/lib/update-notifier/apt-check )
1132[05:50:11] <dstaring> I'm trying to verify that: 1. This thing exists by default. 2. Only outputs a number such as "4;6".
1151[05:53:25] <dstaring> SO... Is it entirely meaningless for me to try to install REAL Debian on my RPI v1 (headless)? Since Raspbian is dangerous crippleware lacking even the most basic security?
1152[05:53:29] <Tom-_> dstaring, apt-check is not on my Debian 9 cloud
1153[05:53:29] *** Quits: Nic_Wow (~Nic-Wow@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1154[05:53:36] <dstaring> Tom-_: Really? Hmm...
1155[05:53:36] <Kon-> annadane: Yes it's a fish but it's also the name of a streamlined GUI installer for distros. Used by a lot of Debian derivatives like KDE Neon and Lubuntu. Manjaro uses it as well
1156[05:53:41] <Tom-_> or in the base installation of Debian 10, so far
1157[05:53:41] <dstaring> Tom-_: Not even if you use that full path?
1158[05:53:45] <kreyren> meh.. i had to deal with it on few OS and it's pita.. Would be cool if debian provided tarball stage like gentoo/exherbo tho
1159[05:53:55] <Tom-_> ah i hadn't checked the full path
1160[05:54:12] <Tom-_> dstaring, bash: /usr/lib/update-notifier/apt-check: No such file or directory
1161[05:54:30] *** Quits: Shahnaz- (~Shahnaz@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1162[05:54:36] <dstaring> Tom-_: Hmm!
1163[05:54:46] <Guest91755> Hello, I'm afraid I had a nasty crash while full-upgrading from 9.9, it looked like this: replaced-url
1170[05:56:55] <Guest91755> And I can't execute most of my common programs, like irssi or even man :/ I think I'm stuck on a broken system now
1171[05:57:02] <Guest91755> Yes, thank you :)
1172[05:57:26] <Guest91755> I would, but I'm on my phone since my pc is so broken
1173[05:57:29] <Tom-_> dstaring, I don't see a /apt-check in any directory in the stretch Contents-foo.gz files
1174[05:57:41] <Tom-_> maybe update-notifier is an Ubuntu package
1175[05:57:47] <Tom-_> ,v update-notifier
1176[05:57:47] <dstaring> Tom-_: Strange. It's mentioned online as "undocumented"...
1177[05:57:47] <judd> Package: update-notifier on amd64 -- jessie: 3.14.0-1
1178[05:58:06] <Tom-_> is your Debian the jessie version, dstaring?
1179[05:58:14] <dstaring> "Undocumented" and "basic security" feel incompatible...
1180[05:58:31] <s8ori> security through obscurity!
1181[05:58:38] <dstaring> Tom-_: I only have Raspbian myself so far. This was advice given to me by a person on freenode.
1182[05:58:49] <rant> kreyren: mono 5.20 will likely only ever be available in sid or bookworm at this point, it has never to my knowledge been backported.. its use is not common installation of a mono runtime is about 10% or less of our user base according to obtainable statistics, its maint has been spotty over its history, and to my knowledge nothing we actually ship requires it
1183[05:58:54] <Tom-_> dstaring, what advice?
1184[05:58:59] <dstaring> Tom-_: (It doesn't exist on Raspbian.)
1185[05:59:11] <Tom-_> Guest91755, maybe ping me in like half an hour (say my name)
1186[05:59:20] <dstaring> Tom-_: I'm trying to check if my Raspbian/Debian system needs my attention to install any security updates.
1187[05:59:20] <rant> kreyren: its one of those things where if you really want to see it improve you are going to have to help support it
1189[05:59:32] <Guest91755> Ok, I will, thanks a lot
1190[05:59:40] <dstaring> Tom-_: In a non-interactive manner. That is, the check is being made through my script. Not typed out as a command manually.
1191[05:59:57] <Tom-_> i think you should ask in raspbian
1192[05:59:58] <Tom-_> !raspbian
1193[05:59:59] <dpkg> Raspbian is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian (or #raspberrypi) on irc.freenode.net for support. replaced-url
1194[06:00:25] <Tom-_> !unattended-upgrades
1195[06:00:25] <dpkg> well, unattended-upgrades is a package for installing security upgrades automatically, unattended. See replaced-url
1197[06:00:26] <dstaring> Tom-_: I've asked, and asked, and asked... they either know nothing or don't want to explain it.
1198[06:00:37] <rant> kreyren: the simplest way to help grow support for such a thing if you lack the time/ability to really help with development type things is to install and use popcon so that your use of the package is recorded and its seen as being used by more people and thus more important, and to provide as much feedback and pushing on the BTS and mailing lists and such as possible
1199[06:01:30] <dstaring> dpkg: It feels rude to say it, but I've seen that URL a number of times over the last X months and every time I load it, I just fall back into my chair from exhausting. For real. Literally.
1200[06:01:31] <dpkg> dstaring: You are person #1 to send an unparseable request
1207[06:01:59] <dpkg> I am an infobot. For more information, ask me about <infobot>.
1208[06:02:14] <themill> dstaring: All I can see you is trolling #raspbian. Not surprised you didn't get an answer.
1209[06:02:50] <dstaring> themill: Just because you have a mental illness where you apparently waste everyone's time all day, doesn't mean this is the case for everyone else.
1210[06:02:54] <dstaring> themill!*@* added to ignore list.
1215[06:03:25] <rant> dstaring: perhaps webmin might be of interest to you, it is available from their website and provides you with a web interface to know if updates are avaialble and perform upgrades
1221[06:07:47] <rant> the only thing I've ever used mono for is opensim, and I have many times considered just rewriting the whole damn program from scratch in something else :P
1227[06:12:34] <Tom-_> Guest91755, I don't know what's going on there, some libnfs package had the same file as another libnfs package. i think that's not supposed to happen
1228[06:12:41] *** bliv is now known as bl1v
1229[06:13:12] <Guest91755> Yeah, it came out of nowhere
1230[06:13:21] <Tom-_> Guest91755, you can try running `dpkg --configure -a` or `apt-get -f install` a few times to see if it improves anything, and then maybe another image (don't type the quotes ``)
1231[06:13:30] <Tom-_> dpkg, paste?
1232[06:13:31] <dpkg> Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: replaced-url
1251[06:18:34] <bl1v> this is what happened, coming from dpkg --configure -a : replaced-url
1252[06:18:46] <rant> not to mention we can't easily search the text or view it on our terminals.. you don't do yourself justice using screenshots when you could use pastes
1253[06:19:26] <bl1v> I know, I'm sorry, I thought I wouldn't be able to use anything else
1254[06:19:34] <themill> bl1v: the actual error is before what you pasted
1255[06:20:42] <bl1v> here's the whole thing replaced-url
1256[06:21:55] <themill> you've got a stack of dmo packages in there
1260[06:23:13] <dpkg> To list all packages you have installed from deb-multimedia.org: aptitude search '?narrow(?version(CURRENT),?origin(Unofficial Multimedia Packages))' --disable-columns -F%p. Note: apt must know about the origin repository for this to work (i.e. you have a 'deb' line for it in sources.list and 'apt-get update' has been run). See also <which repo>.
1261[06:23:35] <themill> (that might still work in the middle of an upgrade)
1262[06:23:57] <mojikun> lets hope wayland seems more support now, and active development since the debian move to wayland as default for gnome
1270[06:29:12] <rant> thats one way to go about it.. assuming there isnt more, where the line themill/dpkg said comes into play
1271[06:29:37] <rant> I just parsed the output of your paste and had it list the package names all on one line for anything that had a dmo version number
1272[06:29:51] <rant> its less precise but should help none the less
1273[06:30:14] <tfgbd_> Is there a debian for "Device Emulator" ?
1274[06:30:43] *** Parts: Primer (~daniel@replaced-ip) ("Leaving")
1275[06:30:51] <rant> tfgbd_: is there an english for "what you just said"?
1276[06:31:28] <tfgbd_> Microsoft makes this ARM board I use.
1277[06:31:34] <annadane> QEMU, i guess...
1278[06:31:38] <tfgbd_> Noo
1279[06:31:38] <Kon-> How does a user end up with all these dmo packages when they never heard of deb-multimedia.org?
1280[06:31:49] <tfgbd_> This is a different "open source" ARM board.
1282[06:32:37] <themill> Kon-: read a 5 year old tutorial written by someone with 10 year out of date info who probably didn't know what they were talking about to begin with, and just copied a couple of commands.
1283[06:32:44] *** Quits: BenNZ (~Ben__@replaced-ip) (Quit: Everytime I think IQ's must have dropped recently, I remember that this is the internet)
1284[06:33:02] <Kon-> lol fair enough, I'm sure that happens every day
1285[06:33:03] <rant> if you are asking if there is a debian installer for some board and whatever idiot made it, called it "Device Emulator" we need more than that.. cause thats HORRENDOUSLY VAGUE
1286[06:33:09] <bl1v> yeah pretty much
1287[06:33:26] <bl1v> and then forgot about all I did
1288[06:33:46] <bl1v> so dpkg's method for filtering dmo packages gives me this list replaced-url
1289[06:34:12] <bl1v> I suppose I should those instead?
1336[06:46:53] <bl1v> does that even make sense :P
1337[06:47:01] <Tom-_> bl1v, have you removed dmo from you /etc/apt/sources.list files, and souces.list.d files, and done an apt-get update yet?
1338[06:47:18] <Tom-_> ty that and maybe an apt-get -f install to see if apt will help out
1339[06:47:30] <bl1v> oh, so I had to remove the repos first
1340[06:47:33] <bl1v> I'm such an eternal noob
1341[06:47:49] <rant> tfgbd_: I've tried to run a super light GUI on my opi lite and it has a quad core 1.2ghz cpu and 512MB ram and it barely managed.. and that was running NATIVELY
1342[06:48:25] <rant> tfgbd_: and this will not be an easy install.. it will require cross compiling, manually building kernel, rootfs, uboot images, etc..
1349[06:51:33] <bl1v> removed the repo, updated, and looks like I got the same error replaced-url
1350[06:52:45] <bl1v> but I think libnfs8 is not installed on my system, or is it? replaced-url
1351[06:52:47] <tehnull> why is sudo apt-get dist-upgrade not working for me? I'm on 9.9. Do I need to wait a bit for mirrors to update or something?
1352[06:52:50] *** Quits: torbo (~user@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1353[06:52:54] <Sveta> someone is asking me why Unattended-upgrades is not a part of non-gui debian by default. is it a part of some 'all nice important server stuff' metapackage, or how to debian server administrators learn of it?
1354[06:53:11] <Sveta> I learned of it on irc.
1355[06:53:17] <rant> tehnull: you do not apt-get dist-upgrade for one thing
1356[06:53:19] <tfgbd_> Don't use KDE
1357[06:53:26] <tfgbd_> Use GNOME2
1358[06:53:39] <rant> tehnull: then you might want to be less vague
1359[06:54:13] <tehnull> It's my understanding that's how I upgrade to buster?
1360[06:54:13] <tfgbd_> Why are you compiling more ARM debians if the orange pi already comes with one?
1362[06:54:34] <Tom-_> Highdude, it does not appear to be possible to install Cinnamon or GNOME and use sysvinit at the same time on Debian 10 without outwitting the package manage or recompiling things
1363[06:54:40] <rant> tehnull: your understanding is incomplete and didnt come from the release notes
1364[06:55:08] <rant> tfgbd_: trust me, if you should get an orange pi, do NOT use any of their images.. they have memory leaks, backdoors, etc..
1365[06:55:25] *** Quits: b (~coffee@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1366[06:55:27] <bl1v> status: installed lol
1367[06:55:28] <tfgbd_> Oh
1368[06:55:33] <tfgbd_> Can't you get some 3rd party one?
1369[06:55:38] <Tom-_> which seems unfortunate to me
1370[06:55:40] <tfgbd_> Does the same apply to the UK based Rasbian?
1371[06:55:41] <rant> tfgbd_: and you're f'n high if you think it'd run any DE.. with only 512MB ram.. I was only running a light wm and a light panel
1372[06:55:48] <tehnull> well clearly the upgrade isn't "automatically being handled" if I'm still on 9.9
1373[06:56:01] <aljoni> I have just installed Debian 10, how should I install Nvidia drivers? Following the instructions for Debian 9?
1374[06:56:05] <tfgbd_> The Raspberry Pi Zero worked fine with the desktop to me.
1375[06:56:10] <themill> tehnull: you might need to explain more what you've done
1376[06:56:14] <tfgbd_> 512mb
1377[06:56:27] <tfgbd_> The HD2 also worked fine with Gnome
1378[06:56:45] <tehnull> why is this so confusing I've done nothing but try and upgrade to buster like I've already said
1379[06:56:54] <bl1v> alright, I removed libnfs8 with dpkg
1380[06:57:02] <themill> tehnull: that isn't actually telling anyone what you have done
1381[06:57:06] <bl1v> should I try update and then full-upgrade?
1382[06:57:09] <rant> tehnull: upgrading to buster is a MANY STEP process, none of which you seem to understand
1383[06:57:14] <themill> tehnull: can I suggest real commands and real output?
1384[06:57:28] <rant> tehnull: upgrading a debian release is not merely a single dist-upgrade command
1398[07:00:30] <bl1v> I never liked soup anyway :P
1399[07:00:30] <tehnull> obviously you don't remember PC's automatically upgrading themselves to 10 lol
1400[07:00:49] <rant> the most rudimentary upgrade proceedure involves changing your sources from the old release to the new, updating the package cache, then doing a dist-upgrade
1401[07:01:10] <aljoni> I modified my sources, and added "non-free" to the "deb ... buster" line. However I am unable to install the package "nvidia-driver", I get this output: replaced-url
1402[07:01:18] <rant> however the release notes is more thorough, trying to avoid many possible issues
1403[07:01:24] <bl1v> I thought this time around it's supposed to be apt full-upgrade
1406[07:02:36] <tehnull> I'm just going to re-install I got a feeling after reading this my upgrade results are going to be less than satisfactory
1407[07:02:50] <m4ch1n3znc> so buster is now stable :3
1408[07:03:22] <rant> tehnull: well should you go that route and plan to do so in the future.. consider making your /home seperate
1409[07:03:32] <tehnull> it is
1410[07:03:38] <tehnull> it's on it's own disk
1411[07:03:46] <tehnull> well own 2 disks
1412[07:04:06] <rant> tehnull: well thats good.. then you can reinstall without reformatting and backup and global configs to the /home just make sure you tell it to keep existing data on the /home
1413[07:04:21] <rant> s/and/any/
1414[07:04:27] <bl1v> ok, I removed libnfs8 with dpkg, removed the repo lines from sources, apt-get update'd, and apt-get -f install'd, and it seems fine
1415[07:04:31] <bl1v> got no errors this time
1416[07:04:40] <bl1v> I suppose I should try now full-upgrading?
1417[07:04:49] <magic_ninja_work> aljoni, post up your /etc/apt/sources.list
1419[07:05:06] <rant> bl1v: thats likely because the libnfs8 was the only one that didnt have an upgrade path, the rest just upgraded to the normal official packages
1420[07:05:19] <rant> bl1v: and yes, you should probably be able to proceed now
1422[07:05:49] <rant> tehnull: this user was having one such issue the release notes would've avoided.. they had a lot of dmo packages installed..
1423[07:06:30] <rant> if your system is pure debian and no odd things going on, usually an upgrade is a simple fast painless 3 step process of changing sources, updating cache, and upgrading
1434[07:09:15] <bl1v> I had them installed since wheezy was around and upgraded to jessie no problems
1435[07:09:56] <rant> anyone with experience in the field knows that real-world mass upgrade scenarios of windows are just as thorough and often very convoluted.. cause one thing you need remember when comparing a windows upgrade to a debian upgrade is that windows is almost nothing compared to debian.. debian is EVERYTHING.. on windows all the other stuff that isnt just the kernel, shell, notepad, paint.. few crappy apps, is not
1436[07:10:02] <rant> part of the upgrade
1437[07:10:58] <tehnull> am I mistaken or is it just silly that I should manually edit my apt internet sources if I'm upgrading from previous stable to current stable?
1451[07:16:14] <aljoni> magic_ninja_work: Just realised you wanted the output from both, half asleep right now, here is the output of "apt update": replaced-url
1452[07:16:41] <magic_ninja_work> no you read that right
1498[07:37:59] <finn0> I'm noticing a weird behavior of chromium browser. My workspace automatically switch from workspace-1 to workspace-2 when I open chromium from workspace-1.
1499[07:38:14] <tfgbd_> Why not use Chrome?
1500[07:39:07] <finn0> Is chrome available on Debian official repo? Probably not.
1501[07:39:10] <Sveta> chromium ≠ chrome
1502[07:39:34] <Sveta> chrome is available in an unofficial repository, i think
1503[07:40:16] <finn0> Sveta: yep, maintian by Google chrome team.
1504[07:40:54] <yutayu> finn0:use firefox
1505[07:41:46] <annadane> (why do you need repositories for browsers if they're downloadable via the upstream site...?)
1509[07:43:17] <finn0> yutayu: Yeah, I also use Firefox with heavily modified settings and some plugins. But, I would like to have a browser without tweaks.
1510[07:43:35] <finn0> yutayu: And why not use chromium?
1511[07:44:22] <nkuttler> privacy
1512[07:44:24] <yutayu> firefox lover finn0
1513[07:44:25] <finn0> means I need a alternative browser for some personle work.
1551[07:52:11] <Kon-> I've heard many people say this is a bad time to stay on Testing. I looked through the Release documentation but I'm having a hard time understanding why stability of Testing goes down after a new Stable release. Does a bunch of stuff just get dumped in from experimental suddenly?
1552[07:54:01] <nkuttler> Kon-: people have been holding back packages because of the freeze. basically, yes
1553[07:55:43] <Kon-> I suppose that makes sense if people feel a bit more free with the testing/migration cycle
1914[08:23:15] <Lady_Aleena> I ran "# dpkg -l | pager", and I take it "ii" is good in front of package names, right? Also, what does "rc" and "ri" mean? Should I be concerned?
1923[08:26:04] <Lady_Aleena> So anything with an "r" should be removed?
1924[08:26:07] <CrazyTux> please provide me a link to any website where the detailed process of installation of Debian is given. I need it for a complete newbie, a non technical end user.
1931[08:28:21] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: would you recommend Debian for a newbie?
1932[08:28:42] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: how is mx linux as compared to debian?
1933[08:28:46] <Lady_Aleena> Are you talking about a Linux newbie?
1934[08:28:51] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: yes.
1935[08:29:01] <themill> Lady_Aleena: 'r' means "desired state is removed"; that doesn't tell you whether it has already been removed or will be removed.
1936[08:29:04] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: someone who has been using Windows 10
1937[08:29:22] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, how dependent on the GUI is the person?
1938[08:29:41] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: dependent on GUI only.
1939[08:29:52] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, does this person have any skills on a command line at all?
1954[08:32:15] <themill> (Except for the step when you are finishing partitioning)
1955[08:32:22] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, there is always command line use with Linux, even with the most exhaustive desktop environment chosen?
1956[08:32:48] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: ok
1957[08:32:53] <rant> I've had my father on debian for years now.. Jessie then Stretch, and he's barely touched the keyboard much less the terminal
1958[08:33:01] <CrazyTux> rant: ok
1959[08:33:03] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, the person would have to at least learn how to use nano for some things.
1960[08:33:25] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: what is nano?
1961[08:33:32] <rant> Lady_Aleena: not everyone makes their websites in perl :P
1962[08:33:39] <Lady_Aleena> A command line text editor.
1963[08:33:47] <Lady_Aleena> ^ nano
1964[08:34:00] <Lady_Aleena> rant, no?! Really?!
1965[08:34:02] <rant> my father uses mostly firefox and microsoft office, and has never heard of nano
1966[08:34:28] <rant> but then I had set it up for him, he didnt have to set it up himself
1967[08:35:11] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, also, someone who has used Windows may not be comfortable using older versions of software. Debian does not have bleeding edge software versions.
1968[08:35:33] <rant> CrazyTux: whats the scenario here? why are you recommending Debian to them, are they open to it? what is their use case like?
1969[08:35:35] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: but Debian is the most stable OS.
1970[08:36:04] <Wulf> The most stable OS would be the one which never changed. Ever.
1971[08:36:08] <CrazyTux> rant: in fact I want to install Debian on this computer for me also.
1972[08:36:16] <CrazyTux> others also use this computer.
1973[08:36:27] <espera_satelita> even Arch can be stable if you can maintain it
1974[08:36:34] <rant> so you'd be sharing the machine.. like a machine used among flatmates?
1975[08:36:39] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, I agree, but some users (I was, and to some extent stall am) are not happy with versions of software that are years old.
1976[08:37:14] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: ok
1977[08:37:16] <espera_satelita> and also. a computer will work flawlessly if no one would turn it on
1978[08:37:29] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: then which distro would you recommend for such people?
1979[08:37:32] <winny> computers were a mistake. *drops mic*
1980[08:37:48] <rant> really the most common two things my father has bugged me about was the printer acting up, and typically turning the printer off and back on fixes that, and him not finding things he saved from microsoft office he insists on saving to f'n "My Documents" inside the wine bottle instead of to whatever drive the homedir is mapped to.. so I long ago linked the bottle's My Documents to his homedir.. and told him
1981[08:37:54] <rant> this ad nauseum..
1982[08:38:06] <CrazyTux> Lady_Aleena: how about mx linux?
1983[08:38:09] <Lady_Aleena> CrazyTux, I don't know. I went from Windows XP to Debian Wheezy. I haven't tried any other Linux distributions.
1984[08:38:13] <rant> Lady_Aleena: you're being a negative nancy right now.. heh..
1985[08:38:17] <blackflow> winny: there's an irc command for *drop mic* tho ::)
1986[08:38:28] <espera_satelita> AFAIK wine's Documents is mapped to ~/Documents or what is it in your locale
1987[08:38:29] <winny> blackflow: this is true :)
1988[08:38:30] <rant> people who are used to something aren't happy with DIFFERENT software they couldnt care less how old or new it is
1989[08:39:10] <Lady_Aleena> rant, Debian can be VERY intense for someone who HAS worked on a Windows command line. I thought I was ready for Linux, and even today, I am still having issues.
1990[08:39:20] *** Quits: CrazyTux (~s@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1991[08:39:36] <rant> CrazyTux: we obviously recommend Debian or we wouldnt be here.. however some of the lest pure folk here that dont bleed in red debian swirls.. might say you have different things for different reasons..
1992[08:39:54] <blackflow> I always likened distro (non-)hopping to sex life. You can get married young and stay with that person forever, never tasting another ... . Or you can distro-hop while you're "young" in distros experience, and then settle over the years :)
1993[08:39:55] <Lady_Aleena> So, for someone who hasn't even SEEN a command line, Debian might not be the best Linux distribution for them.
1999[08:40:45] <totesmuhgoats> Is anyone aware of a good GUI tool for LVM management that is in the testing repository?
2000[08:40:49] <espera_satelita> one word for "I can't install and configure debian" is "ubuntu"
2001[08:40:58] <Lady_Aleena> rant, simpler my FOOT, I still don't know if all the programs that are listed with an "rc" or "ri" in the dpkg list will cause problems when I upgrade from Stretch to Buster.
2002[08:41:00] <espera_satelita> but debian is really easy to install
2003[08:41:31] <espera_satelita> you can just select your preferred desktop environment while installing and the OS should boot to the UI
2005[08:41:39] <Kon-> CrazyTux: The easiest way to install Debian is with the Live media where you can test the desktop and then install it using the very simple GUI installer. For best results you'll want the the build including non-free firmware. Here are the ISOs for standard amd64 desktops. Choose the ISO for the desktop environment you want replaced-url
2006[08:41:54] <Lady_Aleena> espera_satelita, easy to install, yes; easy to configure, NO!
2026[08:46:28] <Kon-> Not a fan of Cinnamon myself, but sure. MX uses a heavily customized XFCE. It can be made to look nice but I think Debian will ship the defaults which look a bit more Windows XP-inspired
2027[08:46:37] <CrazyTux> and how difficult is it to install, completely setup and use debian as compared to other distros like Mint?
2028[08:46:59] <espera_satelita> mint is very-very-very user-friendly
2029[08:47:02] <Kon-> If this is your goal, maybe you should consider Linux Mint Debian Edition
2030[08:47:06] <Lady_Aleena> Do I need to download and burn all three ISO's on replaced-url
2031[08:47:14] <CrazyTux> ok
2032[08:47:37] <CrazyTux> btw, is mx linux a secure and stable distro?
2033[08:47:39] <espera_satelita> debian is somewhere between user-friendly ubuntu/mint/fedora and geeky distros like gentoo/arch/LFS
2034[08:47:51] <espera_satelita> any distro is secure and stable if you configure it
2035[08:48:00] <icarusfactor> Yeah Buster is released.
2036[08:48:07] <blackflow> Lady_Aleena: it's literally explained in the fourth subtitle section of that page.
2045[08:49:31] <blackflow> also, is that windows xp installing in the vm?
2046[08:49:31] <tfgbd_> Its not my primary wks
2047[08:49:46] <rant> CrazyTux: anyone would comment on that crap here is an idiot if they said any less than use debian
2048[08:50:16] <Kon-> CrazyTux: For specifics on how MX configures things out of the box and how it differs from Debian XFCE, you'll need to ask MX users for support
2049[08:50:29] <rant> CrazyTux: all linux distros are the same in most all regards except matters of priorties and communities.. and debians priorities and comunity are far better than most
2050[08:50:30] <CrazyTux> ok
2051[08:50:30] <tfgbd_> Heres one of my others: replaced-url
2052[08:50:36] * Lady_Aleena is downloading the ISO, will burn it, then upgrade, she thinks.
2053[08:50:41] <tfgbd_> That ain't no VM
2054[08:50:46] <tehnull> ew
2055[08:50:49] <tfgbd_> Thats an emulator
2056[08:51:16] *** Quits: jmd (~user@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2057[08:51:48] <rant> CrazyTux: what made me a debian user almost 20 years ago were two documents replaced-url
2070[08:58:46] <Kon-> That really is the main difference. Most Debian solutions will probably work for MX Linux, but it gets difficult to offer support with confidence because derivatives like MX do often include their own repositories which can introduce issues not applicable to Debian
2073[08:59:28] <rant> CrazyTux: debian has two large support networks for real-time support 24/7 here and on OFTC mx linux has none.. they have forums only last I checked.. we also have forums and a wiki as well as excellent mailing lists and bug tracking system
2074[09:00:02] <rant> more often than not when I ran into real problems with debian I was able to speak directly to the developers and get the problems resolved quickly
2075[09:00:06] <tfgbd_> I thought the same
2076[09:01:14] <Lady_Aleena> I want to apologize for being so "needy" right now, but my relaxed upgrade weekend just blew up in my face. So, I am a bit stressed by outside forces that is making me question everything.
2084[09:03:21] <rant> and the installation processes are nearly identical
2085[09:03:26] <tfgbd_> But didn't you just complain about MX Linux's lack of IRC support?
2086[09:03:27] <CrazyTux> rant: ok
2087[09:03:29] <Kon-> That's a loaded question. I know Mint has developed some of their applications but I think they are probably all available from a Debian Cinnamon installation. I don't think MX Linux does all that much except themeing Debian Xfce.
2088[09:03:49] <CrazyTux> Kon-: ok
2089[09:04:41] <tfgbd_> Kon-: Are you named after that lion
2090[09:05:16] <Kon-> Honestly, if you go the Cinnamon route, I recommend Linux Mint Debian Edition over pure Debian Cinnamon. The Mint team maintains the Cinammon desktop on their own and you will get better support there. I think Debian Cinnamon users are a very small niche group.
2091[09:05:22] <Kon-> tfgbd_: No
2092[09:05:53] <rant> CrazyTux: yes choosing a good desktop would be the first major choice.. I personally thing MATE is the most mature code base that is most like traditional UI and that Cinnamon and XFCE are attractive alternatives with a slightly more modern feel.. where GNOME or KDE are pushing boundaries of modern design and if that sort of thing isnt super appealing to youm its best you steer clear cause most of us don't
2093[09:05:59] <rant> use those things and arent going to be able to offer as much support on them.. we have however on the OFTC network, specific debian channels for each of them
2094[09:06:12] <Kon-> And CrazyTux do remember that Linux Mint and Linux Mint Debian Edition are different distros. If you try it, make sure you download the correct one
2095[09:06:18] <jmcnaught> I don't think we should be recommending other distros in #debian.
2096[09:06:30] <rant> CrazyTux: I could provide you with some screenshots of what the /default/ of each of the 7 DE look like if you like
2105[09:07:54] <CrazyTux> I want a stable and bugfree DE also.
2106[09:08:00] <Kon-> I recommend KDE myself. I think Plasma is a very comfortable option for ex-Windows users and exposes the most options through GUI
2107[09:08:03] <jmcnaught> I recommend GNOME
2108[09:08:07] <rant> CrazyTux: I personally like XFCE a lot, but MATE is a more mature code base with less bugs to be honest
2109[09:08:15] <humpled> :\/
2110[09:08:17] <CrazyTux> ok
2111[09:08:26] <kts> Yeah, KDE.
2112[09:08:29] <rant> CrazyTux: cinnamon is what mint uses and its got a nice clean look to it and is fairly similar to MATE
2113[09:08:41] <CrazyTux> ok
2114[09:08:45] <humpled> mate is horrid tho
2115[09:08:52] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2116[09:08:58] <magic_ninja_work> tfgbd_, bring back XP!
2117[09:09:02] <CrazyTux> how much RAM and CPU does KDE use?
2118[09:09:07] <CrazyTux> on Debian.
2119[09:09:09] <rant> only if as I said earlier that you are particularly interested in modern ui designs
2120[09:09:12] <rant> !de usage
2121[09:09:12] <dpkg> de usage is probably The HDD/RAM usages of the 7 Stretch DE on amd64 VirtualBoxes with 1GB RAM / 32GB HDD are as follows as reported with only their terminals running df -Th and free -h: GNOME 4.2G 726M, KDE 4.1G 604M, Cinnamon 3.7G 482M, MATE 3.1G 215M, LXQt 3.1G 184M, LXDE 3.0G 180M, XFCE 2.9G 226M
2122[09:09:14] <magic_ninja_work> CrazyTux, here
2123[09:09:27] <magic_ninja_work> Like 2.5-3 GB ram
2124[09:09:30] <magic_ninja_work> CPU next to none/
2125[09:09:45] <rant> fwiw, I made that factoid testing all those on virutalbox
2126[09:09:47] <magic_ninja_work> I like KDE, a lot.
2138[09:11:21] <rant> CrazyTux: by default however many redundant menu entries will be in the menus as each DE has its own text editor, calculator, filemanager, etc..
2139[09:11:21] <CrazyTux> suppose I want to isntall and run Windows in Virtual Box, which DE would you recommend?
2140[09:11:27] <magic_ninja_work> with a couple basic apps and a web browser you can expect to see 2-3GB usage.
2141[09:11:30] <tfgbd_> I don't get a login screen because I need CHroots
2142[09:11:30] <Kon-> DE doesn't matter for virtualbox
2143[09:11:47] <CrazyTux> Kon-: DE for the Host OS.
2144[09:11:56] <CrazyTux> with Debian as the Host OS.
2145[09:12:02] <rant> CrazyTux: the DE is irrelevant for a windows guest.. and often using crossover or wine is better than a guest OS for many things
2146[09:12:03] <Kon-> Whatever suits your taste. There's no performance difference
2147[09:12:17] <tfgbd_> Not for development.
2148[09:12:18] <CrazyTux> ok
2149[09:12:31] <tfgbd_> Wine doesn't have network drivers for Virtual PC.
2150[09:12:46] <CrazyTux> my computer has only 4 GBs of RAM. Runs on Intel Core i3 cpu.
2151[09:13:11] <rant> tfgbd_: I have used crossover for playing GTA San Andreas Multiplayer online
2152[09:13:12] <Kon-> On 4GB I might avoid GNOME
2153[09:13:15] <magic_ninja_work> CrazyTux, I would stay away from Gnome.
2154[09:13:25] <magic_ninja_work> Do you have an SSD ?
2155[09:13:33] <rant> and I use it also for a windows browser to use xfinity stream
2157[09:13:40] <CrazyTux> magic_ninja_work: no. its HDD.
2158[09:14:00] <rant> CrazyTux: which generation i3?
2159[09:14:05] <magic_ninja_work> I would hit up some used parts on ebay if you can spare.
2160[09:14:31] <Kon-> A hardware upgrade is not required to have a good experience on Debian. Certainly better than Windows
2161[09:14:33] <CrazyTux> rant: I think 5th gen
2162[09:14:41] <magic_ninja_work> If around $150 isn't in the budget, than you can make what you have work. LxQt is NICE.
2163[09:14:41] <CrazyTux> rant: 2.0 Ghz
2164[09:15:10] <rant> CrazyTux: yeah, thats plenty for a good desktop experience.. but if you wanna run a windows guest with 1GB or more ram dedicated to it you may want to try get additional ram for better performance
2165[09:15:22] <magic_ninja_work> ^^
2166[09:15:32] <CrazyTux> ok
2167[09:15:35] <Kon-> Oh yeah, running VMs on 4GB isn't going to be super great
2168[09:15:36] <tfgbd_> Windows never needs a hardware upgrade.
2169[09:15:36] <magic_ninja_work> And with an older machine like you probably have, you can likely get used ram for cheap on ebay.
2170[09:15:49] <CrazyTux> can we install all the packages in Windows in VBox?
2171[09:15:52] <tfgbd_> 4GB isn't older anymore.
2172[09:16:02] <tfgbd_> Some 2016 laptops come with 1GB
2173[09:16:04] <magic_ninja_work> SSD's are now super-cheap too. I just got a 1 TB SSD for like 120, so you could upgrade for sub-100
2174[09:16:06] <CrazyTux> the same way we can install on Windows when installed on the hdd?
2175[09:16:12] <tfgbd_> Perfect for Devian, right
2176[09:16:30] <rant> CrazyTux: yes, windows isnt aware its not running on native hardware
2177[09:16:31] <tfgbd_> I got a 3TB HDD for $30 or so.
2181[09:16:57] <rant> CrazyTux: personally I like VirtualBox because its dead simple to use and I also like its seamless mode and ability to easily save and resume state
2182[09:17:04] <CrazyTux> I will consider this option of upgrading the RAM then.
2183[09:17:13] <Kon-> CrazyTux: What is your goal in running a Windows VM? If the answer is not "development work" then maybe there's a better solution
2184[09:17:34] <magic_ninja_work> CrazyTux, can we get a machine manufacturer and model / service tag?
2185[09:17:38] <rant> CrazyTux: yes with your CPU you can probably max out at 16GB and merely doubling to 8GB would be enough to comfortably run a couple guests
2186[09:17:41] <tfgbd_> What is native hardware
2187[09:17:48] <CrazyTux> Kon-: I want to use some packages on Windows. Those can't be installed on Linux easily.
2188[09:18:00] *** Quits: mniip (mniip@replaced-ip) (Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.)
2189[09:18:03] <CrazyTux> magic_ninja_work: how?
2190[09:18:22] <tfgbd_> packages on Windows?
2191[09:18:27] <tfgbd_> Windows calls them installers
2192[09:18:28] <magic_ninja_work> just who made your computer and what model it is. Should be printed somewhere unless it is a franken computer
2193[09:18:44] <CrazyTux> I want to install SAP IDES on Windows.
2194[09:18:44] <tfgbd_> Or are you running Debian ON TOP OF Windows as a process?
2195[09:18:57] <magic_ninja_work> CrazyTux, it is a perfectly legitimate work flow. I use a windows 10 VM for my design work.
2196[09:19:02] <Kon-> CrazyTux: I highly recommend trying your Windows applications in Wine. I think quite a few IDEs run well in Wine.
2228[09:26:19] <magic_ninja_work> <CrazyTux> I will consider this option of upgrading the RAM then.
2229[09:26:25] <magic_ninja_work> based on your advice rant
2230[09:26:29] <rant> magic_ninja_work: I'm not tryin to be an ass here, you just seem to be harping on an issue that isnt really important.
2231[09:26:42] <rant> magic_ninja_work: they said they'd consider it.. they didnt ask for help on the matter :P
2232[09:26:58] <magic_ninja_work> And they have no clue on what paricular ram they need.
2233[09:27:02] <rant> this is a debian support channel, they havent yet installed debian or asked about buying ram.. just sayin
2234[09:27:29] <magic_ninja_work> Yet they are making a consideration of changing over, and have specified that they will need a windows VM in the process.
2239[09:27:48] <rant> if they asked about ram, I can tell based on the CPU which ram they need, only thing is how many slots they have.. and if they can't figure that out by peekin inside they shouldnt be upgrading the ram in the first place
2245[09:28:50] <rant> CrazyTux: the DE would have no effect on the guest
2246[09:28:53] <magic_ninja_work> I agree with rant on that one.
2247[09:29:01] <CrazyTux> rant: what about the RAM usage?
2248[09:29:06] <magic_ninja_work> heh
2249[09:29:25] <rant> CrazyTux: you want to do some higher end testing in windows, so you dont want to try doing this with only 4gb ram probably regardless
2250[09:29:29] <CrazyTux> wouldn't DEs like Gnome and KDE use more RAM and CPU?
2251[09:29:42] <magic_ninja_work> yes, they do
2252[09:29:47] <rant> CrazyTux: 4gb ram is a fair minimum for a GOOD quality desktop experience on debian.. alone.. without a guest..
2255[09:30:01] <rant> leaving plenty of room for extra tabs in a browser, disk caching, oepning a lot of files.. etc
2256[09:30:25] <CrazyTux> how about dual booting Windows with Debian?
2257[09:30:26] <rant> windows similiarly.. esp win10 doing enterprise type test scenarios will want that much itself
2258[09:30:34] <rant> so you want 8gb minimum I'd say
2259[09:30:43] <rant> so you can give windows 4gb of its own while the VM is running
2260[09:30:49] <Kon-> It's one thing if you were doing these same workloads natively, but just running the VM will reduce your RAM set aside for work by at least half
2261[09:31:03] <magic_ninja_work> Ohhhh, but do they need a 4GB chip or an 8GB chip ?? :)
2262[09:31:10] <tfgbd_> I ran debian and more Windows with 128mb on my server and was pretty satisfied.
2263[09:31:14] <rant> yes.. I dont understand what the hell this SAP IDES is but it sounds complicated
2264[09:31:18] <tfgbd_> So I dunno what this 5GB meme is.
2278[09:32:10] <winny> all i know is 1 GiB is a bit tight for compiling linking a linux kernel with debug symbols, but honestly you can do a lot on the desktop with 1GiB if you don't install heavyweight software choices :)
2279[09:32:16] <tfgbd_> Because that's all they "sell" for free
2280[09:32:30] <tfgbd_> I compiled VMware too.
2281[09:32:35] <rant> Firefox with a single tab is gonna be using like 512MB ram all to itself.. with an <html></html> page loaded
2308[09:34:38] <tfgbd_> Does that actually work now?
2309[09:34:39] <BazookaTooth> make dillo great again
2310[09:34:56] <winny> links -g is actually usable on many sites
2311[09:34:56] <rant> CrazyTux: can you peek inside and see how many ram slots you have and how many are occupied/free?
2312[09:35:10] <Kon-> CrazyTux: That was a question from me to you. I was asking if you are currently doing SAP IDES work on this computer?
2313[09:35:35] <CrazyTux> Kon-: no. I am yet to get that software and install it.
2314[09:35:39] <winny> CrazyTux: u can check the output of dmidecode, hwinfo, lshw for memory slot configuration too (ymmv in understanding the results though)
2315[09:35:45] <CrazyTux> rant: how?
2316[09:36:10] <pragomer> hi. I am actually using "devilspie2" to organize specific programs to certain workspaces. this works with two exceptioins: xfce4-terminal and hexchat. I seems that I dont know their exact "Program Name".. does anybody has an advice for me?
2317[09:36:25] <rant> CrazyTux: this is my point.. he was asking about your model and crap to advise on buying ram.. and thats irrelevant if you dont even know enough to look inside.. then you dont know enough to install more ram
2318[09:36:32] <rant> you'd have to consult a technician regardless
2326[09:38:18] <Kon-> CrazyTux: do you know which version of IDES you have to use?
2327[09:38:23] <rant> but if you dont know enough to open the case and look and see where the ram is and how many slots you have, then you cant install it, therefore you can't buy it.. someone has to do it for you
2328[09:38:24] <winny> it's funny how many mobos are moody about specific ram products too, e.g. i've had boards that won't run the ram at its max speeds because the mobo firmware didn't know about that product
2329[09:38:24] <tfgbd_> I didn't think of it for the screenshot.
2330[09:38:32] <tfgbd_> It's getting heavy.
2331[09:38:47] <rant> winny: yeah its more common in laptops.. for power/heat reasons
2332[09:39:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1505
2333[09:39:06] <magic_ninja_work> Oh BS. You can watch a youtube video on how to do a ram upgrade.
2334[09:39:20] <grumble> wooohoo
2335[09:39:25] <CrazyTux> Kon-: may be this one. SAP_ECC_v6.0_SR3_IDES_
2336[09:39:25] <rant> University of YT :D
2337[09:39:26] <magic_ninja_work> Anyway, have fun.
2339[09:39:46] <Putti> Question regarding upgrading to Buster from Stretch: Are the iptables rules converted automatically to nftables syntax and upgraded so that no unwanted packets get through? I just have a simple deny all rule + allow established.
2340[09:39:51] <grumble> 'Debian 10 "buster" released' is an amazing email to see after waking up \o/
2341[09:40:08] <stefanos82> greetings everyone. Is everything alright with server syncing? Here's what I get for my testing system "E: Repository 'replaced-url
2342[09:40:09] <Putti> grumble, yup :)
2343[09:40:16] <tfgbd_> What about on Snapdragon 835
2344[09:40:19] <stefanos82> I guess it must be a hiccup
2345[09:40:25] <elwisp> grumble: agreed
2346[09:40:27] *** Quits: bla (~bla@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2347[09:40:41] <rant> stefanos82: no, its a change in apt that is trying to protect you from strange behavior
2348[09:40:44] <grumble> i will boldly go where probably plenty of people have gone in the past 6 hours and attempt to update my irc box
2349[09:40:51] <rant> !apt suite changed
2350[09:40:51] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
2351[09:41:06] <grumble> if i don't make it back here, it was nice knowing you
2352[09:41:06] <rant> stefanos82: this apprently applies to you as well ^^
2353[09:41:10] <stefanos82> rant: I have tried the --allow-releaseinfo-change and did not change anything
2354[09:41:14] <stefanos82> the message remains the same
2364[09:42:30] <pragomer> so, problem already solved ;-)
2365[09:42:52] <rant> stefanos82: regardless you're in the wrong channel for your issue, you should be in #debian-next on OFTC ( irc.debian.org or irc.oftc.net )
2366[09:43:04] <stefanos82> rant: lsb_release -a still displays buster instead of bullseye
2367[09:43:06] <humpled> pragomer: cool
2368[09:43:11] <magic_ninja_work> CrazyTux, most likely, yea. Seems that entire generation did.
2422[10:08:14] <rant> magic_ninja_work: I haven't gotten to work on it yet, cause I'm not a very good programmer and have no experience working on stuff other people will use.. but I've identified some issues and outlined an idea for a series of realted projects I think will be necessary for such adjustment to our support apperatus in the future
2479[10:21:08] <BlackBishop> I boot off the iso, select the language, the location, keyboard, detects the network, configures it, I configure the hostname, I choose the mirror (ftp.us.debian.org), skip the proxy, it's downloading stuff off the mirror
2482[10:21:30] <BlackBishop> No kernel modules were found. This probably is due to mismatch between the kernel used by this version of the installer and the kernel version available in the archive.
2484[10:21:57] <BlackBishop> If you're installing from a mirror, you can work around this problem by choosing to install a different version of Debian. The install will probably fail to work if you continue without kernel modules.
2549[10:47:58] <gour> i plan new install (possibly switching to sid) and consider whether to use separate /home and/or to reduce / 30G --> 25G to save some space
2550[10:48:05] <gour> rindolf: hiya
2551[10:48:38] <rindolf> gour: a separate /home is a good idea
2552[10:49:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1516
2553[10:49:42] <gour> rindolf: ok. i tried yesterday with lvm install, but it looks as grub requires separate /boot...otherwise i'm gertting 'OS not found' on my netbook
2554[10:49:46] <annadane> i've sometimes wondered whether it's generally a good idea, but for security reasons, but off-topic
2555[10:50:26] <rant> yes, a seperate home is great if you arent yet at the point of stability in your understanding/use because it allows you to more easily reinstall without worrying about your data
2556[10:51:12] <annadane> though i suppose most stuff gets dumped in home regardless
2557[10:51:15] <gour> hmm...now i did another non-lvm install and it seems the problem is not due to root under lvm, but due to bios/gpt combo...i used to have such problem in the past...(old lenovo e125 netbook)
2558[10:51:24] <rant> the machine I recently sold my cousin I had installed buster on a 32gb m.2 ssd and he then bought a 1tb sata hdd to go in there and set that as his /home which I think is a nice way to do things..
2559[10:51:47] <gour> so, either i should do simple bios/mbr or gpt/uefi install
2560[10:52:27] <gour> i bet you'd recommend uefi one?
2581[10:58:25] <rant> but then when I was very young.. and they first told me about the 1s, 10s, 100s, 1000s, place in base 10 then said 10,000s, and 100,000s I was quite confused at first
2598[11:03:32] <maxcell_> i getting this: E: The repository 'replaced-url
2599[11:04:03] <maxcell_> what should i use instead of testing?
2600[11:04:51] <jan6> ...the stable version?
2601[11:05:02] <rant> maxcell_: irc.oftc.net and #debian-next or buster, and track into the new stable release
2602[11:05:35] <rant> in which case you may need to also observe
2603[11:05:40] <rant> !apt suite changed
2604[11:05:40] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, or you use 'testing' in your sources.list, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
2605[11:05:45] <maxcell_> somebody can tell me whats the codename of the testing right now?
2626[11:09:25] <blackflow> besides, Devuan is not respecting init freedom. I can't install systemd.
2627[11:09:32] <rant> blackflow: b b b b..
2628[11:09:36] <rant> blackflow: haha.. good point
2629[11:09:36] <jelly> !slap blackflow
2630[11:09:38] * dpkg strikes a resounding *THWAP* across blackflow's face
2631[11:09:40] *** Quits: SpaceTraveller (~SpaceTrav@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2632[11:09:45] * Butt3rfly chuckles
2633[11:09:45] <maxcell_> why not debian-next at freenode?
2634[11:09:46] <blackflow> dpkg: behave.
2635[11:09:46] <dpkg> blackflow: i haven't a clue
2636[11:10:01] <blackflow> !botsnack
2637[11:10:01] <dpkg> :), blackflow
2638[11:10:09] <rant> maxcell_: because all debian specific channels are on OFTC now, its the official network
2639[11:10:29] <annadane> consider it punishment for asking debian testing questions in freenode
2640[11:10:31] <rant> maxcell_: here we only have the legacy #debian from when this was the official debian irc network
2641[11:10:35] <jelly> maxcell_, "testing" typically does not have a security repo, and also using names whose contents change under your feet like "stable" or "testing" for repos can bite you in the arse
2687[11:17:43] <blackflow> pretty sure if there's an OOO patch for stable, it'll eventually get synced in through unstable or else you have split brain problem in debian and a maintenance nightmare
2688[11:17:43] <annadane> but it doesn't have an official security repository, so i mean
2691[11:18:13] <jelly> maxcell_, "always" would have been 2-3 months tops, since it's _created_ only in the final run of a release cycle, and even then it's mostly empty
2692[11:18:35] <blackflow> maxcell_: jelly is right tho' about that part.
2693[11:18:52] <blackflow> my comment was only about the flow of updates for packages.
2694[11:18:57] <maxcell_> i really doesn't understand a single thing you guiys are saying
2695[11:19:01] *** Quits: catsup (d@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2701[11:19:49] <jelly> blackflow, security fixes for stable work are ALWAYS backported separately and uploaded as distinct source+binaries. Packages from unstable NEVER drop directly to stable.
2702[11:20:33] *** Quits: catsup (~d@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2703[11:20:46] <maxcell_> i have a problem with an "possible" stable debian machine
2704[11:20:56] <jelly> even if the very same upstream version is a fix, say, for firefox-esr, uploads to unstable and stable are separate builds and separate debian versions
2719[11:21:40] <maxcell_> i only changed it to testing because i needed to install an app called "stremio" (it needed some dependencies that weren't on buster) that was the only thing it installs, so if i come back to buster i will be pretty much OK.
2720[11:21:48] <blackflow> jelly: due to the nature of backporting patches, it's coming from the future version of the package that will end up in unstable and testing anyway, most likely.
2752[11:27:16] <maxcell_> i think i remember, a time i downloaded an testing cd from debian.org
2753[11:27:23] <maxcell_> it uses stable security repo
2754[11:27:26] <maxcell_> i'm almost sure
2755[11:27:33] <jelly> that's unlikely
2756[11:27:35] <maxcell_> better then nothing i gess
2757[11:27:36] <grumble> maxcell_: security fixes for "testing" are usually just put in the normal testing repos. you don't need a separate security repo (and the stable security repo won't help you if you add it)
2759[11:28:08] <jelly> grumble, there are no intentional security fixes for testing. It's just normal flow of packages.
2760[11:28:10] <grumble> however, thats done on a best-effort basis and you have no guarantee you'll get security fixes at any given time on testin
2761[11:28:12] <blackflow> okay, here's one example. CVE-2018-5740 fixed in buster, and jessie even, but not in stretch. (let's ignore the fact that buster is _now_ stable, this CVE is from last year)
2762[11:28:29] <maxcell_> ok
2763[11:28:49] <maxcell_> that's a little sad
2764[11:28:55] <maxcell_> but
2765[11:29:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1522
2766[11:29:14] <annadane> not as sad as the ending to forrest gump
2767[11:29:15] <maxcell_> they said i can't use backports on stable so i gess that's the only way
2768[11:29:21] <jelly> blackflow, and there's a note at the bottom explaining it
2769[11:29:24] <annadane> what? yes, you can
2770[11:29:30] <jelly> !cve lookup CVE-2018-5740
2771[11:29:30] <dpkg> Information about the security advisory CVE-2018-5740 may be found at replaced-url
2772[11:29:37] <maxcell_> for now
2773[11:29:39] <annadane> for what? backports? that's the point of backports
2774[11:29:44] <annadane> what do you actually need?
2780[11:30:43] <annadane> You have searched for packages that names contain stremio in all suites, all sections, and all architectures. Sorry, your search gave no results
2798[11:34:52] <annadane> in other news i abandoned my dist-upgrade because i ran into a bunch of dependency conflicts and didn't feel like doing dist-upgrade it one go before upgrade so hurrah, fresh install it is
2799[11:35:00] <annadane> in one go*
2800[11:35:22] *** Quits: BenNZ (~Ben__@replaced-ip) (Quit: Everytime I think IQ's must have dropped recently, I remember that this is the internet)
2802[11:36:07] <jelly> if you mean a release upgrade, saying that is more clear than calling it the same way as an apt-get command which is NOT used for (just) release upgrades
2817[11:39:32] <jelly> maxcell_, if you installed any packages, they will be bigger versions than what's in stable forever, and you'll never get security fixes
2842[11:47:18] <annadane> also, "come back to stable"... i guess buster did just release so the fact 'testing' is in the sources.list may not be too bad but...
2843[11:47:46] <tfgbd_> does dist upgrade (or whatever) still work?
2844[11:47:59] <espera_satelita> yes
2845[11:48:05] <annadane> in general? yes
2846[11:48:16] <tfgbd_> what debian do I get with that
2847[11:48:28] <espera_satelita> but read carefully what is it going to install and/or uninstall
2849[11:48:58] <annadane> i mean, what does your sources.list say, are you still on stretch wanting to update to buster?
2850[11:49:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1531
2851[11:49:09] <maxcell_> jelly, i can uninstall just the packages i install from testing, i have it right here
2852[11:50:08] <tfgbd_> How do I check my debian version from debian?
2853[11:50:13] <maxcell_> annadane, no i was on buster and i needed some deps like this: libqt5test5 libqt5webengine-data and some more. To install stremio (downloaded from website)
2854[11:50:15] <jelly> !debian suite
2855[11:50:16] <dpkg> cat /etc/debian_version (or lsb_release -sc). Or check /etc/apt/sources.list. If unsure about the distribution, $ cat /etc/{*version*,*release*,*issue*} should grab almost all distributions.
2856[11:50:21] <jelly> tfgbd_, ^
2857[11:50:23] <kale> tfgbd_: lsb_release -a
2858[11:50:26] <espera_satelita> are you on buster no?
2859[11:50:29] <espera_satelita> now
2860[11:50:41] <espera_satelita> do sudo apt-get upgrade
2861[11:50:47] <maxcell_> i'm on buster but with those deps installed.
2862[11:50:53] <maxcell_> nothing changes
2863[11:50:56] <jelly> maxcell_, look at dpkg and apt logs to see all the dependencies it pulled
2864[11:50:56] <espera_satelita> those deps from testing
2880[11:51:55] <dpkg> To get a list of packages you have installed now, that are not available from any repository in your sources.list: aptitude search '?narrow(?not(?archive("^[^n][^o].*$")),?version(CURRENT))'
2881[11:52:08] <espera_satelita> so just replace stretch by buster and do apt update; apt-get upgrade; apt-get dist-upgrade
2882[11:52:12] <maxcell_> jelly, that were the deps
2883[11:52:22] <espera_satelita> and read carefully everything it shows on the screen
2884[11:52:31] <maxcell_> espera_satelita, yes from testing replaced-url
2885[11:52:34] <tfgbd_> Isn't there anything more permenant that can preserve the version in case someone edits sources.list like you tell people to?
2886[11:52:45] <annadane> apt-mark hold
2887[11:53:05] <espera_satelita> remove stremio, upgrade your OS and install stremio again
2888[11:53:21] <jelly> maxcell_, you HAVE TO check the logs to see if that install also _upgraded_ some existing packages in addition to installing extra ones.
2889[11:53:22] <maxcell_> espera_satelita, if i tried, it will say it doesn't have those deps to install
2890[11:53:38] <maxcell_> jelly, how can i do that?
2951[12:05:07] <rant> did you type what I said or did you put sudo in front of it?
2952[12:05:23] <tete_> i do not allow root login, so i login as user with ssh and then i do a "su" - i would have assumed that it does some kind of "source /root/.bashrc" or "source /etc/bash.bash_rc" after that su automaticaly
2953[12:05:34] <tete_> i did what you wrote
2954[12:05:42] <tete_> i am root now at that machine
2955[12:06:38] <humpled> how can you do su if you don't have root logins?
2963[12:07:37] <humpled> i use $ sudo -i , is that bad?
2964[12:07:40] <tete_> that worked
2965[12:07:44] <tete_> thanks
2966[12:07:53] <tete_> just curious because in debian 9 it was working with "su" only
2967[12:08:10] <rant> shouldnt have afaik
2968[12:08:19] <rant> sudo su maybe
2969[12:08:24] <rant> cause then sudo handles the env
2970[12:08:42] <rant> but su only changes the env if its told to make it a login shell
2971[12:08:46] <kale> tete_: sudo is an option to run a single command as root, and also controlling which commands are allowed. if you intend to run more than one command. "su -" is IMHO preferred.
2972[12:09:08] <maxcell_> jelly, i've separeted everything that was installed during the apt install stremio and put it on a text file
2973[12:09:16] <maxcell_> now just blows everything and i'm ok?
2974[12:10:25] <tete_> kale, thanks, i do administration stuff now for a couple of hours and dont want to sudo all the time, thats the reason why i use "su"
2975[12:10:45] <kale> tete_: the "-" is important, use "su -"
2978[12:12:21] <kale> tete_: i believe ubuntu is responsible for all the "sudo make me a sandwich" stuff. i personally think its abuse. "sudo, sudoedit — execute a command as another user", was its original purpose.
2979[12:12:31] <maxcell_> everything was removed succesfully
2987[12:14:16] <kale> at0m: but thats on purpose. if you just run "su", then you get the environment of the calling user. which could trick the root user to call the wrong "ls" command. So you need to add "-" to make sure you get the right environment. Thats by design.
2988[12:14:16] <humpled> sudo -i gets the path right
2989[12:14:46] <at0m> kale: right. $PATH would be one of the things affected.
2990[12:15:42] <at0m> !su
2991[12:15:42] <dpkg> su is, like, switch/set user. It is used to change User ID's and/or gain super user access.
2997[12:18:12] <maxcell_> hey, when i try to install stremio now it actually find the dependencies needed, that means i just seem to have downgraded but i didn't?
3035[12:34:40] <NetTerminalGene> guys, if you upgrade, it uses X11. you should chose wayland manually
3036[12:35:09] <wxie> Hi, just updated from stretch to buster. Facing one problem: fcitx missing my pinyin input which was ok in stretch. Could anyone help?
3037[12:35:10] <at0m> kale: update of the dpkg bot factoid
3041[12:35:51] *** Quits: CyberX (~CyberX@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3042[12:36:39] <at0m> NetTerminalGene: not for me, not now. as someone here lately said, when another asked "what features am i going to loose with wayland": "the question is more, which are you going to keep"
3078[12:49:14] <NetTerminalGene> guys, i didn't understand what it says replaced-url
3079[12:49:48] <NetTerminalGene> "When installing Debian from live media using the Calamares installer (Section 2.2.13, “News from Debian Live team”) and selecting the full disk encryption feature, the disk's unlock key is stored in the initramfs which is world readable. This allows users with local filesystem access to read the private key and gain access to the filesystem again in the future. "
3114[13:02:19] <Kon-> I believe it will be fixed eventually. Last I heard Calamares was not very popular with Debian contributors and it is being maintained by people who run Debian derivative distros (like Netrunner)
3122[13:09:26] <Brigo> Hi, my hdmi monitor stopped working, i was checking for problems and i couldn't find anything, the montior appears in xrandr as disconnected. Any hints, please?
3123[13:09:46] *** Joins: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip)
3124[13:10:36] <tarzeau> Brigo: reboot monitor? check cables are in properly on both sides?
3143[13:14:28] <Haxxa> I just upgraded docker on debian 10 from docker-engine and I no longer have my contaibers showing up but /var/lib/docker is populated?
3144[13:14:35] <Haxxa> *contaibers
3145[13:14:38] <Haxxa> *containers
3146[13:14:53] <Haxxa> any ideas on how to import volumes back into docker?
3151[13:17:26] <metrix> I get the followng message from systemd-logind-service over and over when I ssh into my new Buster box: "Failed to start login service" where do I start troubleshooting this?
3158[13:20:27] <scott_tams> I have a Debian testing system which I use occasionally, which until this morning had "buster" in the sources.list file. When I saw that, I thought "that's not right, buster's about to become stable, and I want to track testing!"
3159[13:20:38] <Brigo> metrix, i would check journalctl for more info
3160[13:20:50] <scott_tams> So I changed my sources.list to look like this replaced-url
3161[13:20:55] *** Quits: SpeedyG (~SpeedyG@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3162[13:21:20] <scott_tams> and now I get a 404 for the Release file for the debian-security line
3163[13:22:00] <NetTerminalGene> scott_tams, did it ask you yes or no question after apt update?
3164[13:22:48] <scott_tams> oh, yes, that was what triggered this
3165[13:22:53] <scott_tams> I cancelled that process
3166[13:22:56] <metrix> Brigo: Thank you for the quick reply. journalctl and journalctl -x -e return "no journals found"
3167[13:23:41] <scott_tams> but not before hitting "no" on the security suite. Ok, I can see where I messed it up
3171[13:25:29] <Brigo> metrix, as root? are you using systemd?
3172[13:26:25] <scott_tams> ah, I just lost my scrollback history! D: When it asked if I wanted to accept the changes of "buster" moving from "testing" to "stable" on the "debian-security" channel. When it asked me the NEXT question, I hit Ctrl+C to just cancel the update. So did me selecting "No" there potentially break my configuration for "testing"? oh I guess maybe not
3174[13:26:40] <metrix> Brigo: yes as root, and yes I am using systemd
3175[13:27:06] <tete_> assuming the process aborted of upgrading with an error because my disk ran out of space, can i simply continue with apt-get dist-upgrade or do i have to take some special precautions?
3194[13:31:27] <metrix> Brigo: this is my testing box, that I update before production,, I just ran a standard upgrade, nothing special..
3195[13:32:02] <metrix> Brigo: going to restore from backup and try the upgrade again... maybe I made a mistake in the upgrade process
3196[13:32:44] <Brigo> metrix, i don't know what is going on. Have you any other log facility like syslog or rsyslog installed? you can check for their files in /var/log
3199[13:34:15] <NetTerminalGene> scott_tams, ok but, you said no. so it should work
3200[13:34:33] <Mathisen> Hello, anyone mind helping me with a php issue after buster upgrade from stretch ? i need php7-3-curl installed but im getting this error after upgrade > replaced-url
3201[13:35:05] <scott_tams> If I change sources.list to buster it works replaced-url
3227[13:48:09] <scott_tams> like all I'm doing is :%s/buster/testing/g in sources.list, then running apt update. In all my prior experience on debian-like systems, that has worked, unless there was a remote repository issue. Is there a way I can get `apt` to show more details about the network requests as it's making them?
3230[13:48:46] <Rust3dCor3> Hi. Im on debian 9.9, should I update via apt to buster? Is i backup my sources.list can I just swap it after foobar install and do apt-get install --reinstall *packages*?
3231[13:49:03] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: conta)
3234[13:50:30] <scott_tams> Rust3dCor3, make sure you make a backup first, but yes, usually, one can just substitute the version names in the sources.list file, then run apt update and apt-get dist-upgrade
3235[13:51:18] <Rust3dCor3> scott_tams by backup you mean backup of sources.list file?
3236[13:51:27] <scott_tams> No I mean a full system backup
3237[13:51:31] <rocketmagnet> i have a strange problem - i've installed handbreak and now my fonts are gone, when i try fc-cache -fv i get many errors telling me: "invalid cache file (/home/user/.cache/fontconfig)
3239[13:51:53] <Rust3dCor3> scott_tams never did such thing. always i made a clean install. any command to do so?
3240[13:52:32] <Rust3dCor3> scott_tams will borg be ok for it?
3241[13:52:52] <scott_tams> I mean, yes, a clean install is preferred. If you can back up all your data (or keep it on a separate disk) and just nuke the original system with a new image, that is much more likely to go smoothly
3262[13:59:39] <Mathisen> Rust3dCor3 you better of just backup upp personal/needed data then doing a fresh install if you gonna upgrade to buster, and if you looking for somrthing like nandroid variation for debian read upp on Aptik.
3265[14:00:41] <Mathisen> Rust3dCor3 specaly!! if you been using other repos then the standarnd debian ones in you sources.list. just look @ me i just upgraded from stretch to buster and i have 4 packages total that went crazy on me just for using 1 3..rd party repo.
3346[14:38:50] <epony> the CPU information is typically found during system start up screens, in BIOS setup, with kernel diagnostic output or with a CPU ID utility (or
3347[14:38:57] <tfgbd_> file explorer.exe
3348[14:38:57] <tfgbd_> explorer.exe: PE32+ executable (GUI), for MS Windows
3349[14:39:07] <tfgbd_> No CPU listed in your tool either
3353[14:41:38] <tfgbd_> Heres what compiled with gcc: file /home/ubuntu/xqemu-build-aarch64/xqemu/i386-softmmu/qemu-system-i386
3354[14:41:38] <tfgbd_> /home/ubuntu/xqemu-build-aarch64/xqemu/i386-softmmu/qemu-system-i386: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, ARM aarch64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib/ld-, for GNU/Linux 3.7.0, BuildID[sha1]=a8c45048f508a7cc7eecfed1ba5b94c45b42383e, with debug_info, not stripped
3355[14:44:10] <tfgbd_> How do I crosscompile this for an older lsb?
3384[14:55:02] <tabakhase> also check out "adminer" if youre open to switch and dont rly need much, - otherwise phpmyadmin is kinda just a wget + setting some secrets i think
3445[15:24:26] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, or you use 'testing' in your sources.list, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
3457[15:31:42] <aaro> what's the official recommended package tool for debian, i've been using for many years apt-get apt-cache, some time ago i saw aptitude was recommended, is it now apt recommended?
3466[15:34:12] <petn-randall> aaro: As jmcnaught said, whatever you like. Only thing that's different is if you dist-upgrade, the depedency resolution works slightly different on both tools.
3501[15:51:53] <jmcnaught> velix: it should only install if you have the print server task selected in the tasksel stage of the installer. cups should be safe to remove, but as always carefully read the list of packages that apt proposes removing with it.
3502[15:52:01] <un214> apt-get update is complaining about buster becoming stable with a useless recommendation to see man apt-secure
3503[15:52:50] <un214> If I apply the listed change in apt-secure it would appear it turns off package signing altogether
3504[15:53:44] <jmcnaught> !apt suite changed
3505[15:53:44] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, or you use 'testing' in your sources.list, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
3518[15:56:31] <sjamaan> I've upgraded a Stretch system to Buster, but now nsd refuses to start (the config was fine in the old setup and I didn't change it)
3519[15:56:56] <sjamaan> "error: Cannot open /etc/nsd/var/log/nsd.log for appending (Permission denied)"
3520[15:57:07] <sjamaan> I'm using it with a chroot
3530[16:00:41] <un214> upgrading stretch -> buster reinstalled systemd after I had explicitly reinstalled sysvinit-sysv -- maybe something stupid along those lines messed up sjamaan; chroot boot scripts are hard
3543[16:04:43] <velix> jmcnaught: seems like the German buster notes got translated wrong then. They say "installed by default"
3544[16:05:13] <jmcnaught> velix: it says that in the english version too, but if you just press enter all the way through the installer you will end up with CUPS
3578[16:15:05] <cybercrypto> it is really amazing job, of Debian team, the new release. If that not enough... documentation "wise" is super as well... :-) congrats!
3579[16:15:07] <jmcnaught> sjamaan: if you edit the file in /lib/systemd/system it will just get replaced the next time the package is updated. Instead you want to make a file like /etc/systemd/system/nsd.service.d/capabilities.conf and override that directive there
3599[16:18:48] <sjamaan> jmcnaught: How do I do that? I added a two-line config there with "[Service]" on line 1 and "CapabilityBoundingSet=" on line 2, but that doesn't work
3600[16:18:58] <jezebel> just want to make a list of things i'll be uninstalling :)
3601[16:19:02] <jezebel> un214… thx
3602[16:19:27] <un214> jezebel: if you want to start with almost nothing, I recommend debootstrap instead
3603[16:19:31] <jezebel> e.g. iptables
3604[16:19:52] <jmcnaught> sjamaan: if you made a new file you probably need to 'systemctl daemon-reload' to let systemd know about it
3605[16:20:00] <sjamaan> I did that
3606[16:20:06] <sjamaan> But it appears that these sets are merged
3607[16:20:19] <sjamaan> I just want it to be reset to the default
3608[16:20:22] <dury> petn-randall, how was your first install of Buster?
3609[16:21:08] <dury> petn-randall, not problem?
3610[16:21:12] <sjamaan> Ah, "CapabilityBoundingSet=~" does the trick
3611[16:21:56] <petn-randall> dury: I hardly do any fresh installs, it's mostly upgrades for me.
3670[16:39:17] <un214> in any case if systemd-sysv were to install now everything would be broken because I made a fake libsystemd0 package to satisfy kde dependency checks
3676[16:42:30] <dpkg> There is no need to waste your time or ours trying to eliminate the string "systemd" from the output of dpkg -l. Installed libraries that are unused are unused; libsystemd0 takes up a whopping 180kB on disk. Having the "systemd" package installed does not imply booting with systemd (that's the systemd-sysv package). Not all packages with "systemd" in their name are even from the systemd source package (see <systemd-shim>).
3677[16:42:52] <petn-randall> un214: What "doesn't work"? systemd-sysv is one piece of the systemd eco system.
3678[16:43:36] <un214> I couldn't figure out because the system was too degenerate
3679[16:43:45] <un214> I think I was still in a readonly / at the login prompt
3682[16:45:32] <petn-randall> un214: That sounds like it's completely unrelated to that package.
3683[16:45:36] <petn-randall> !xy
3684[16:45:36] <dpkg> Slow down for a bit! Are you sure that you need to jump through that particular hoop to achieve your goal? We suspect you don't, so why don't you back up a bit and tell us about the overall objective... We know that people often falsely diagnose problems because they are too close to them -- it's easy to miss that there is a better way to proceed. See replaced-url
3700[16:51:09] <petn-randall> un214: In none of the supported releases did this package ever exist. So you'll need to find out where it came from, and probably bug those people on how to get it working with buster.
3701[16:51:14] <un214> I was almost certainly running this one for a day or so: replaced-url
3702[16:52:30] <un214> I'm currently running this one replaced-url
3707[16:54:52] <un214> ok right libpam-systemd directly depends on systemd-sysv so that's why everything went haywire
3708[16:55:50] <pja> That seems fairly reasonable.
3709[16:56:20] <un214> libpam-systemd is a dependency of kde's core libraries
3710[16:56:42] <un214> the kde desktop depends systemd but the applications really don't
3711[16:57:05] <dvs> un214, that's what I found out
3712[16:57:08] <petn-randall> un214: Ah, ok. Is your goal to get your system running properly, or is your goal to avoid systemd? Because those two might be conflicting goals.
3713[16:57:31] <un214> I think systemd doesn't support my hardware
3714[16:57:41] <petn-randall> I highly doubt that.
3799[17:24:32] <petn-randall> N3VR1K: This is the Debian support channel. Only questions regarding Debian are on-topic here. Congrats on installing Kali/Parrot.
3800[17:24:35] *** Quits: N3VR1K (~ska@replaced-ip) (Killed (edk (Please do not spam.)))
3843[17:40:12] <jasonwc> With regard to Release Notes 5.1.6 that says /lib/modprobe.d/systemd.conf sets " options bonding max_bonds=0" by default, has anyone overrided this setting with a custom config? I am using bonding for my main interface
3844[17:40:23] <jmcnaught> Muyfret: that's wrong, /etc/passwd is already owned by root:root but the file needs to be readable by others
3880[17:51:32] <dpkg> The release notes for Debian 10 "Buster" are at replaced-url
3881[17:52:12] <Deihmos> i plan to do a clean install. i am just curious how does one know there is a release update if they don't follow debian website. i thought apt update would show it
3908[18:01:09] <J2KSo2> hi guys. i'm not able to install my wlan usb adapter... can someone help me? i have a clean debian 9.9 installation... and i'm connected over wire. i can't find any settings for my wlan usb :(
3938[18:14:23] <jan6> separate /home, and MAYBE /boot, and all's nice and dandy ;]
3939[18:14:24] <jelly> given any specific "hardening" advice, you should try to understand what it's protecting from ("attack surface") and why it's a good idea to protect from that instead of leaving it be ("risk management")
3940[18:14:47] *** Joins: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip)
3941[18:14:57] <dvs> jan6, agrees
3942[18:15:06] <Muyfret> my system has trouble unmounting /var
3943[18:15:12] <magic_ninja_work> Yea, but debian's installer will do: efi, /boot, / and /home which is a good shceme
3944[18:15:42] <jelly> Muyfret, at shutdown/reboot time? That's usually not a big problem.
3945[18:15:51] <Muyfret> yes shutdown
3946[18:16:20] <J2KSo2> Mathisen: I'm getting: modprobe: FATAL: Module 88x2bu not found in directory /lib/modules/4.9.0-9-686-pae
3947[18:16:35] <jan6> magic_ninja_work: that's also basically what I described, separate EFI is required for UEFI boot
3950[18:18:07] <magic_ninja_work> Never hurts to have a parrot. Squawk!
3951[18:18:29] <magic_ninja_work> The point being, though, that the debian installer does a nice job of setting that up, especially with lvm
3952[18:18:41] *** Tom_- is now known as Tom-_
3953[18:19:08] <jelly> Muyfret, sshd_config settings there are another bit that's so old the values (for Ciphers in particular) are actively harmful and can prevent you from connecting from a modern ssh client
3954[18:19:38] *** Quits: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip) (Client Quit)
3955[18:19:53] *** Joins: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip)
3957[18:20:37] <jelly> magic_ninja_work, debian-installer up until debian 9 has done a horrid job of picking separate partitions and their size, I'm VERY glad that' apparently fixed
3958[18:21:49] <Muyfret> since i don't know my root password i will disable root login
3964[18:25:21] <magic_ninja_work> just something to be aware of. I had debian on my laptop but the battery life was atrocious. when switching to another distro, but keeping the partition scheme the /boot partition gave me some headaches and I had to shuffle stuff.
4068[19:07:08] *** Quits: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4069[19:07:24] <jmcnaught> Muyfret: are you doing these hardening changes in a virtual machine? If not then you should consider using VMs so you can break stuff without breaking your computer. Test first.
4077[19:09:29] <jelly> Muyfret, go set up some free web hosting with php, then you'll quickly see what kinds of exploits are actually getting around and what kinds of mitigations are actually useful
4078[19:09:46] *** Joins: mano (~manoj@replaced-ip)
4079[19:09:59] <jelly> a noexec /tmp is pretty much useless on a private system
4083[19:10:55] <GNU\colossus> on buster, will I still need to have bridge-utils installed to have interfaces(5) set up an ethernet bridge for me? (I'm asking since `ip` can do that, too.)
4085[19:11:15] <SpeedyG> hey, after upgrading to buster, my audio device seems to be inactive and it only plays through hdmi now... how can I get my audio back again?
4089[19:11:55] <epony> well, WHY don't the developers ship a reliable and secure system without the user needing to manually perform complex and error prone steps to make it so
4090[19:12:02] <GNU\colossus> jelly, ah, neat. must have missed that somehow :)
4091[19:12:14] <jelly> epony, because it's a lot of work.
4100[19:14:32] <jmcnaught> SpeedyG: have you tried using pavucontrol? Maybe pulseaudio is just using the wrong output device?
4101[19:14:36] <jelly> epony, Debian packages and integration is a work of volunteers for the most part. If you feel some aspects are missing, contribute.
4103[19:15:45] <SpeedyG> jmcnaught: pavu only shows hdmi outputs...
4104[19:15:46] <zleap> hi i have just tried to update my netbook (stretch to buster) I think I hada power failure part way though, as my netbook was off, turning back on it boots so far and then now I have a blank screen with the scren flashing
4105[19:16:05] <zleap> i cna see the mouse cursor but don't seem to be able to switch to a console with ctrl-alt-f1 etc
4119[19:17:16] *** Quits: mano (~manoj@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
4120[19:17:50] *** Quits: n4dir (~n4dir@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
4121[19:18:12] <jmcnaught> SpeedyG: does 'pacmd list-sinks' show the device?
4122[19:18:17] <jelly> zleap, (recommended but options: start screen or tmux, be root, and inside it) run "dpkg --configure -a", then run "apt-get -f install", then redo the last command you were doing
4123[19:18:24] <jelly> optional*
4124[19:18:29] <zleap> ok
4125[19:18:36] <zleap> well i can't login via ssh
4126[19:18:47] <zleap> should i reboot and then try and select something from the boot menu
4131[19:19:16] <SpeedyG> jmcnaught: nope, only the HDMI one
4132[19:19:29] <jmcnaught> SpeedyG: do you have timidity installed?
4133[19:19:35] <dtux> is there a CLI for determining where i should store app-specific configs (e.g. appdirs, but without needing a python package)?
4134[19:20:11] <SpeedyG> jmcnaught: looks like it, yeah
4135[19:20:19] <zleap> on the boot menu there is advanced options
4136[19:20:45] <SpeedyG> jmcnaught: this is the output of pacmd: replaced-url
4137[19:20:51] <jmcnaught> SpeedyG: there's a pretty good chance that timidity is hogging the card, if you don't need it try removing the package, or simply stop it with 'systemctl stop timidity'
4175[19:30:15] <jelly> that is also fine if you know the root password and get a shell.
4176[19:30:38] <zleap> just ran dpkg --configure -a seems to be doing something update related
4177[19:30:48] *** Quits: bdr (~bdr@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
4178[19:30:54] <jelly> did you start screen or script to log the output?
4179[19:30:55] <zleap> setting up <packagename>
4180[19:30:59] <Error451> Q. gonna do a fresh Debian install , first time on a physical machine , installed/ran in VMs so that shouldn't be a problem, but never had multiple disks, I could use pointers on making the 2nd storage usable
4201[19:35:07] <zleap> if I re-install can i select weather the installer should format /home
4202[19:35:23] <friendofafriend> zleap: Yes.
4203[19:35:45] <zleap> ok cool so it will pick up the /home partition
4204[19:35:58] <jmcnaught> Error451: are you using a RAID feature built into your motherboard? That RAID array might only ever be usable on that brand/model of motherboard, using Linux software RAID (mdadm) is probably better, and the Debian installer can help you get it set up.
4208[19:36:27] <friendofafriend> You'll see the label, if you labelled it. Otherwise, just note the partition number. You'll need to use the advanced parititoner.
4260[19:53:19] <ardya> is there a limitation in debian 10 graphical installer regarding lvm? my disk doesn't show in the list of disks to create a volume group
4261[19:53:51] <zleap> is buster 4.19 kernel
4262[19:54:16] <J_C> zleap: yes, buster has the 4.19 kernel
4263[19:54:24] <ardya> trying to do a manual partitioning scheeme using lvm, but theres no disk listed
4268[19:54:46] <J_C> zleap: np. can i ask why you want to know?
4269[19:55:28] <zleap> i had a power fail while updating earlier, was suggested i get to a console and use dpkg --configure -a which I am running now, so out put of that other than setting up packages refered to 4.19 kernel
4270[19:55:40] *** Quits: hele (~hele@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4271[19:55:46] <zleap> so hopefully i am updating to buster
4286[19:58:37] <cmptr> How many repos should be in the Sources.list? Should there just be two? Buster and Security? Or should there be three? Buster, Security and Buster-Updates?
4287[19:59:05] <jelly> !buster sources.list
4288[19:59:06] <dpkg> A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has three lines: "deb replaced-url
4300[20:01:34] <zleap> i added one for weechat so I had a later version, but buster now has that same version
4301[20:01:41] <zleap> so i don't need that in there
4302[20:01:45] <void5f> I had a quick question regarding installing debian. I have to use a non-free image to install debian for my wireless card to work. But does installing from a non-free image, automatically add non-free repos after a fresh install? or how does it work?
4303[20:02:19] <zleap> i think so yes, as far as I can tell the main difference is the lines have non-free in them
4304[20:02:40] <zleap> which you can do manually as far as I understand
4307[20:03:39] *** Quits: chance (~chance@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
4308[20:04:10] <void5f> a friend of mine just recently installed debian from a non-free image and his wireless card works after the install but he doesnt have any non free repos enabled by default. was just curious if that should be the default?
4309[20:04:25] <jelly> void5f, it does not, you still have to add contrib and non-free manually to sources
4310[20:04:45] <zleap> ah thanks
4311[20:04:46] <jelly> because you want upgrades/patches for that firmware
4312[20:04:57] <jelly> should it happen
4313[20:05:14] <zleap> so i add contrib and non free to all 3 line
4314[20:05:19] <jelly> right
4315[20:05:44] <void5f> ah i see.
4316[20:05:51] <zleap> I will see how tb behaves on this netbook and may just re-install it seemed very unstable before
4317[20:05:56] <jelly> and things like intel-microcode for CPU-related security bugs
4330[20:13:29] <Deihmos> accessibility installer is a nice addition
4331[20:13:42] <cmptr> I changed the security-debian.org to ftp.ca.debian.org for the debian-security repo, hopfully that doesn't cause any issues. I tested it out, and it seems okay.
4359[20:30:37] *** BrianG61UK_ is now known as BrianG61UK
4360[20:30:40] <nkuttler> so what's the standard method to add parameters to a service with a systemd service file? if i edit it that gets messy with updates. should they support /etc/default/ ?
4364[20:32:52] <jmcnaught> nkuttler: you can make a drop-in file like /etc/systemd/system/foo.service.d/myoverride.conf that overrides ExecStart=. Make sure to include a blank ExecStart= before your actual override ExecStart=foo --param because it accepts multiple lines, a blank clears it out
4376[20:38:45] <jmcnaught> nkuttler: I forgot to mention that ExecStart= will need to be under a [Service] heading, here's an example of what I mean: replaced-url
4517[21:36:19] <discovered> In last few years, i always did the fresh install :) . This time i did the difference heh... I am on now fresh debian buster stable :)
4518[21:37:08] <annadane> i was going to release upgrade but i didn't feel like yelling at WINE dependencies so fresh install it is...
4544[21:47:49] <epony> I do frequent re-installs in place, typically at least weekly or sometimes daily, with every new snapshot.. for years. Obviously the process is very efficient and the system keeps up clean and consistent. Never had upgrade problems like that. Obviously a different approach that actually works consistently and is reproducible.
4546[21:48:12] <jelly> discovered, there's nothing in dpkg/apt package management that can't be fixed to require a full reinstall. Also I have backups.
4557[21:51:46] <jelly> ZenWalker, bits and pieces of web ui may take some time
4558[21:51:54] <epony> yes, not Debian or a distro, a different OS.. it's OpenBSD :-) Previously was using a compile and rebuild process with FreeBSD weekly, same result (in place re-install).
4559[21:52:12] <discovered> jelly, So it is usually waste of time doing full reinstall for upgrade...? What debian team recommend?
4560[21:52:15] <jelly> that makes sense.
4561[21:52:35] <jelly> discovered, in-place release upgrades are fully supported.
4562[21:52:41] <un214> apt-get is deterministic
4563[21:53:02] <jelly> un214, it is, but not all bugs get fixed.
4565[21:54:28] <ZenWalker> jelly: thanks, and congratulations for this new release :)
4566[21:55:40] *** Joins: hele (~hele@replaced-ip)
4567[21:56:11] <discovered> Is python2 still in debian 10?
4568[21:56:15] <jelly> epony, if you're talkiing about a workflow that does not actually apply to Debian, it might be worth mentioning that explicitely so other people don't get confused
4630[22:18:43] <discovered> If i do apt update i get some error: replaced-url
4631[22:18:54] <discovered> Is it normal?
4632[22:18:59] <tabakhase> !apt suite changed
4633[22:18:59] <dpkg> If you were already using Debian 10 "Buster" prior to it being released as stable, or you use 'testing' in your sources.list, apt complain about changes to the release information on the mirror. apt(8) will prompt you to accept changes; apt-get(8) will need --allow-releaseinfo-change
4636[22:20:19] <jelly> epony, there's always some cruft left but it's manageable. Possibly the worst part of upgrades is Desktop Environment software that does not deal well with old settings.
4637[22:20:58] <plouj> hi, how does db_fset work? Neither replaced-url
4638[22:21:10] <jelly> I probably nuked configs for xfce and kde 2-3 times each
4639[22:21:37] <rant> plouj: you may be better served to head over to OFTC ( irc.debian.org or irc.oftc.net ) and ask someone in perhaps #debian-mentors or such
4640[22:21:41] <jelly> plouj, maybe ask in #packaging over on irc.oftc.net
4641[22:22:08] <epony> jelly yes, understandable, I'm using a window manager only (no DE), so the config file changes are hand manageable for that part
4642[22:22:26] <discovered> oh now the errors disappear! tabakhase
4644[22:23:08] <jelly> Debian manages a decent percentange of changes to global configs in /etc on its own for release upgrades; the less changes you make, the better
4648[22:24:38] <jelly> when there are incompatible changes, you usually get a warning at release upgrade time to force new defaults, or it's documented in release notes
4671[22:34:24] <jelly> un214, depends on upstream changes and on debian maintainers.
4672[22:34:52] <jelly> clamav has _excellent_ upgrades of global config settings
4673[22:35:10] <discovered> I don't use samba that much in my Desktop computer. I would like to test how it is doing.
4674[22:35:13] <epony> In the BSDs (OpenBSD in particular) there is a sysmerge tool that does a diff (review changes) and merge on the fly, so if you know the config files it's quite handy.
4675[22:35:31] <un214> apt-get has one too, but it needs some work
4752[23:13:42] <dpkg> The MATE Desktop Environment is a fork of GNOME 2, available since Debian 8 "Jessie" (and also in wheezy-backports). To install, ask me about <install mate>. replaced-url
4767[23:16:37] <jelly> Muyfret, a) configure them not to do so or b) make /var/log a tmpfs mountpoint and recreate directories owned by packages at every boot
4768[23:16:54] <jhutchins> Muyfret: Why? What's your actual goal
4802[23:27:06] <kreyren> i'm running `qemu-system-x86_64 -kernel ... -enable-kvm` and i'm getting `Could not access KVM kernel module: No such file or directory` -> How do i get kvm module on debian bullseye ?
4803[23:27:22] <jhutchins> un214: I usually use gimp.
4804[23:27:40] <jelly> !debian-next
4805[23:27:40] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
4806[23:27:41] <jhutchins> !kvm
4807[23:27:43] <jelly> kreyren, ^
4808[23:27:54] <un214> I use gimp from time to time; I find it's layering too much
4809[23:28:18] <kreyren> jelly, well stable is now buster and buster is mirror of bullseye xD but whatever
4810[23:28:27] <jelly> kreyren, bullseye is going to be a rough ride for the next couple of weeks, good luck
4811[23:28:51] <jelly> kreyren, if you can reproduce the issue on actual buster, ask here.
4812[23:29:19] <kreyren> jelly, it has bullseye repositories but it didn't update anything yet (still shows buster in neofetch etc..)
4813[23:29:29] <jelly> yeah, not buying it
4814[23:29:38] *** Quits: CyberX (~CyberX@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
4823[23:30:59] <dpkg> Kernel-based Virtual Machine (KVM) is a full <virtualization> solution for Linux hosts on x86 hardware with x86 guests. Packaged as qemu-kvm since Debian 6.0 "Squeeze". See replaced-url