People who Joins , Parts or Quits a chatroom
this is #debian an IRC -Channel at freenode (freenode IRC service closed 2021-06-01)
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27 [00:27:24] <Krennic> hmm
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32 [00:28:36] <rustbuckett> hello everyone! i'm having trouble installing mariadb
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35 [00:30:18] <rustbuckett> The trouble isn't actually installing it, it's what follows. It never has me set a root password, yet when I try to connect to the server as root with empty password, it fails. And running mysql_secure_install fails when it asks for the root password.
36 [00:30:24] <rustbuckett> any ideas?
37 [00:31:15] <rustbuckett> I've tried purging mariadb-server and mariadb-client and reinstalling them. The install never prompts to set a root password.
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43 [00:36:25] <jmcnaught> rustbuckett: the Debian package doesn't set a mariadb root password anymore. There's a note about it in /usr/share/doc/mariadb-<SOMETHING>/README.Debian (sorry can't remember which package exactly)
44 [00:37:21] <jmcnaught> basically just connect to the database as system user root to be mariadb root
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47 [00:38:38] <rustbuckett> jmcnaught: ah. okay.
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98 [01:15:15] <sam123> @debhelper hi
99 [01:15:49] <sam123> i need help with my linux
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103 [01:18:30] <mrjpaxton> Everybody needs help with Linux at some point.
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128 [01:46:14] <mishehu> we've got some jessie servers (they'll be upgraded after 10 is released), and this is driving me nuts... they boot up with powersave as the cpufreq governor. it's a server, and one that will be under heavy load. I just want the governor to be set as performance, and not have to install cpufrequtils or stuff like that. how do I force the thing at boot time to use performance without having to iterate
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130 [01:46:20] <mishehu> on sysfs to set it manually or using sysfsutils?
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171 [02:30:54] <karlpinc> mishehu: Would the kernel command line cpufreq.off=1 choice do what you want? (I sure don't know.)
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173 [02:32:46] <mishehu> karlpinc: sounds like that would probably be an option there to throw into grub. I'll test it out as soon as I can reboot the system.
174 [02:33:14] <mishehu> I hope newer debians have opted for ondemand at least... it's a bit more responsive than powersave.
175 [02:33:42] <karlpinc> mishehu: There's always rc.local. :-|
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184 [02:49:27] <mishehu> karlpinc: edict from above me was "no, no rc.local".
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188 [02:52:17] <Jazztronaut> QUESTION!
189 [02:52:28] <Jazztronaut> I am on Debian stable (updated. Stretch.)
190 [02:52:46] <Jazztronaut> I would like to install a package from the buster repository.
191 [02:52:51] <Jazztronaut> I don't see it in backports.
192 [02:53:03] <Jazztronaut> I don't want to upgrade to testing, I want to keep stable.
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194 [02:53:22] <Jazztronaut> Is there a way I can use 1 package from buster, when I'm on stretch?
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196 [02:53:31] <Jazztronaut> The package is purple-discord
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203 [02:56:44] <jmcnaught> Jazztronaut: you can't mix stable and testing. You could try to backport the package yourself.
204 [02:56:51] <jmcnaught> judd: checkbackport purple-discord
205 [02:56:53] <judd> Backporting package purple-discord in sid→stretch/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper-compat (= 11).
206 [02:57:00] <jmcnaught> maybe not
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209 [02:59:21] <rant> ,v debhelper-compat
210 [02:59:22] <judd> No package named 'debhelper-compat' was found in amd64.
211 [02:59:39] <rant> @.@
212 [02:59:47] <rant> its not a package
213 [02:59:55] <rant> but its in stretch-backports
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215 [03:00:03] <rant> ,v debhelper
216 [03:00:04] <judd> Package: debhelper on amd64 -- jessie: 9.20150101+deb8u2; jessie-security: 9.20150101+deb8u2; stretch: 10.2.5; stretch-backports: 12.1.1~bpo9+1; buster: 12.1.1; sid: 12.1.1
217 [03:00:38] <rant> ,v purple-discord
218 [03:00:39] <judd> Package: purple-discord on amd64 -- buster: 0.9.2019.02.07.git.e5d9627-1; sid: 0.9.2019.02.07.git.e5d9627-1
219 [03:00:52] <rant> ,depends purple-discord
220 [03:00:54] <judd> No package named 'purple-discord' was found in stretch/amd64.
221 [03:01:03] <rant> ,depends purple-discord buster
222 [03:01:04] <judd> Package purple-discord in buster/amd64 -- depends: libc6 (>= 2.14), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.31.8), libjson-glib-1.0-0 (>= 0.12.0), libpurple0 (>= 2.6.0).
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224 [03:02:22] <rant> dpkg, tell Jazztronaut about ssb
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234 [03:08:32] <Jazztronaut> Maybe I have to build the package from source
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238 [03:10:03] <rant> no
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245 [03:11:26] <rant> you have to put a deb-src line for buster, a stretch-backports line, in your apt sources, then install debhelper from backports then follow the rest of the ssb mantra i.e. apt source purple-discord and apt -b source purple-discord then dpkg -i purple-discord-blah.deb
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248 [03:12:08] <Jazztronaut> what does ssb stand for so I can look up documentation on it?
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250 [03:12:16] <rant> !ssb
251 [03:12:16] <dpkg> First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) aptitude update; aptitude install build-essential; aptitude build-dep packagename; apt-get -b source packagename; 4) install the resultant debs. To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
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254 [03:12:37] <Jazztronaut> thanks, I will try that!
255 [03:12:56] <rant> ah yeah, I forgot the build-dep :P
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270 [03:25:41] <Jazztronaut> rant: what does SSB stand for? I'd like to find a debian documentation page on this
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273 [03:27:26] <rant> simple sid backport
274 [03:27:42] <rant> the documentation is right there
275 [03:28:02] <rant> that factoid is all there is to it
276 [03:29:12] <Jazztronaut> Oh, sweet
277 [03:29:37] <rant> in this case you would be backporting from buster cause its not in sid
278 [03:29:52] <rant> erm.. yeah it is
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287 [03:32:34] <Jazztronaut> !ssb
288 [03:32:34] <dpkg> First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) aptitude update; aptitude install build-essential; aptitude build-dep packagename; apt-get -b source packagename; 4) install the resultant debs. To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
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290 [03:32:43] <Jazztronaut> I reconnected so I need it again :P
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293 [03:33:11] <rant> Jazztronaut: aptitude is not required..
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296 [03:33:34] <rant> in fact I think I may change that cause aptitude isn't installed by default
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300 [03:34:11] <rant> dpkg ssb =~ s/aptitude/apt/g
301 [03:34:11] <dpkg> that doesn't contain 'aptitude', rant
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305 [03:34:28] <rant> dpkg, literal ssb
306 [03:34:29] <dpkg> "ssb" is "<reply> see simple sid backport"
307 [03:34:47] <rant> o.O
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311 [03:35:11] <rant> dpkg simple sid backport =~ s/aptitude/apt/g
312 [03:35:11] <dpkg> rant: OK
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315 [03:35:31] <rant> dpkg simple sid backport =~ s/apt-get/apt/g
316 [03:35:32] <dpkg> rant: OK
317 [03:35:35] <rant> !ssb
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319 [03:35:36] <dpkg> First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename; apt -b source packagename; 4) install the resultant debs. To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
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325 [03:37:02] <rant> idk who made that use aptitude and apt-get.. kinda silly..
326 [03:37:17] <rant> kinda stuff that will confuse people
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338 [03:42:31] <ectospasm> rant: those commands are the old way
339 [03:42:38] <ectospasm> pre-stretch
340 [03:42:54] <rant> they were never the way.. I been here and using debian over 15 years
341 [03:43:05] <rant> aptitude was never required
342 [03:43:23] <ectospasm> Well, `apt` is fairly new, compared to apt-get and aptitude.
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344 [03:43:40] <ectospasm> I remember some things being cleaner with aptitude, before the command `apt` came along.
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346 [03:44:07] <rant> aptitude does have additional features like "why" advanced searching, interactive mode..etc
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348 [03:44:30] <rant> but its also more cumbersome, it checks the db before and after each action, its not installed by default..etc
349 [03:44:31] <Jazztronaut> I got:
350 [03:44:31] <Jazztronaut> dpkg-buildpackage: info: binary-only upload (no source included)
351 [03:44:34] <Jazztronaut> lol
352 [03:44:44] <Jazztronaut> "W: Download is performed unsandboxed as root as file 'purple-discord_0.9.2019.02.07.git.e5d9627-1.dsc' couldn't be accessed by user '_apt'. - pkgAcquire::Run (13: Permission denied)"
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354 [03:45:07] <rant> yes you dont need to run those commands as root
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356 [03:45:17] <Jazztronaut> ah
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358 [03:45:32] <rant> fetching source and building packages doesn't require root
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360 [03:45:48] <rant> only installing the resulting debs requires root
361 [03:46:32] <rant> as a general rule, you should never build anything as a root / admin user.. it could be a security risk a small mistake in a makefile could be very destructive
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366 [03:51:16] <Jazztronaut> apt build-dep purple-discord
367 [03:51:16] <Jazztronaut> E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (13: Permission denied)
368 [03:51:16] <Jazztronaut> E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
369 [03:51:20] <Jazztronaut> That's what I got.
370 [03:51:28] <Jazztronaut> It requires root for that step?
371 [03:53:36] <jmcnaught> yes, "apt build-dep …" installs packages
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373 [03:53:44] <__m4ch1n3__> build-dep installs packages that are build dependencie for given package, installing packages on system ofcourse needs root
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375 [03:54:07] <Jazztronaut> Sweet! It worked, thanks so much
376 [03:54:37] <__m4ch1n3__> you only need that when you want build something from source
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378 [03:56:15] <__m4ch1n3__> you would do that before compiling purple-discord from source
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394 [04:01:34] <Okee> Does sudo come installed by default in Debian? I am on a laptop that can't find it, and find this strange. I have istalled Debian on a number of other laptops and don't recall having this problem before.
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397 [04:02:08] <Jazztronaut> It didn't come when I installed debian. What I did is:
398 [04:03:02] <rant> Okee: only if you do not choose a root password otherwise its optional
399 [04:03:12] <rant> dpkg, simple sid backport =~ s/3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename; apt -b source packagename; 4) install the resultant debs./foobar/
400 [04:03:12] <dpkg> OK, rant
401 [04:03:16] <rant> dpkg, simple sid backport =~ s/foobar/[AS ROOT] do 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename [AS USER] do 4) apt -b source packagename [AS ROOT] 5) dpkg -i packagename-version.deb/
402 [04:03:17] <dpkg> that's too long, rant
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404 [04:03:55] <themill> yeah, let's not try breaking things
405 [04:03:58] <Jazztronaut> su; apt install sudo; add the user to the group "sudo" (adduser <user> sudo)
406 [04:04:09] <Okee> rant> I installed a root password as a user password. For this reason sudo should be working, but it isn't.
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409 [04:04:19] <rant> themill: its fixed :P
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412 [04:04:45] <themill> clear as mud :(
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414 [04:05:00] <Okee> rant> How do Iinstll sudo?
415 [04:05:02] <rant> themill: yeah well I was looking at that.. but idk about using sudo
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417 [04:05:13] <rant> Okee: apt install sudo
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419 [04:05:19] <rant> for this reason ^
420 [04:05:21] <rant> heh
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425 [04:05:53] <themill> I think if someone is going to try making a backport, they should be comfortable with what operations need elevated provisions
426 [04:06:02] <Jazztronaut> You have to log in and out after adding your user to group "sudo" for it to work
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429 [04:06:12] <Jazztronaut> Okee: replaced-url
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432 [04:08:04] <rant> themill: I just removed all the parts in [] and left the one as a seperate step
433 [04:08:23] <rant> themill: so when someone mentions the warning we can just say step 4 doesnt require root :P
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436 [04:11:02] <rant> Jazztronaut: thats one way of doing it
437 [04:11:38] <rant> Jazztronaut: using su - user is another..
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439 [04:12:03] <rant> and iirc there were commands out there to refresh group memberships that do basically the same thing
440 [04:13:10] <__m4ch1n3__> and remember changes to groups take first effect after you logged out
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443 [04:14:16] <rant> yes well telling su to make a login shell works to temporarily avoid logging out of your session
444 [04:15:25] <rant> I really dont care much for sudo especially using it in any documentation when its not installed/configured by default.. really I think if we're not going to ship sudo standard we need some base package to place a link from sudo to su or something
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446 [04:16:13] <rant> however when I did use it back in the day I was rather fond of the sudo -v and sudo -k lets you verify then use it many times without a password and use the -k to remove the credential
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449 [04:17:50] * rant boggles
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453 [04:19:18] <rant> appears I have encountered a bug in my graphics.. I got this T440 with the laptop display, a monitor on vga, and a tv on mindp->hdmi and chromium showing the release-critical bugs page is still showing on my vga monitor even though no chromium is running
454 [04:19:44] <rant> as I figured, unplugging and plugging it back in resolved it, but that was rather odd
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489 [05:04:30] <laptop> help
490 [05:04:34] <laptop> I have linx kernel 5
491 [05:04:45] <laptop> and it does not work with nvidia drivers propietary
492 [05:05:06] <aedinius> uh
493 [05:05:10] <aedinius> which version of nvidia?
494 [05:05:17] <aedinius> oh wrong channel
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496 [05:05:35] <aedinius> well, maybe I can.
497 [05:05:44] <aedinius> What version of nvidia? the latest in the repos?
498 [05:05:55] <nanovirus> does nvidia develop driver for linux ?
499 [05:06:32] <aedinius> Yes, for a while now. It's not in-tree though, so kinda wonky.
500 [05:07:15] <aedinius> oh, also what version of debian?
501 [05:07:28] <Hooloovoo> yeah, nvidia does produce a driver. unfortunately, they don't allow open-source developers access to any hardware specs or information
502 [05:07:54] <laptop> y propietary legacy driver latest version
503 [05:08:02] <laptop> it works fine with 4.19
504 [05:08:15] <aedinius> 390.87-8~deb9u1 ?
505 [05:08:20] <Hooloovoo> so unless they bless your kernel, or your kernel is close to one they bless or you use nouveau, you won't get it working
506 [05:08:30] <laptop> ever
507 [05:08:41] <nanovirus> hmm i see
508 [05:08:49] <laptop> what if i role my own kernel
509 [05:08:51] <laptop> can
510 [05:09:02] <laptop> i put together a kernel 5 myself and add nvidia
511 [05:09:14] <aedinius> My only nvidia is for a different distro, it's nvidia390 and kernel 5.0... something
512 [05:09:25] <laptop> which one
513 [05:09:26] <Hooloovoo> maybe?
514 [05:09:34] <aedinius> laptop: that system is Void
515 [05:09:52] <aedinius> But assuming debian stable, nvidia390 should work with kernel 5.x
516 [05:09:54] <aedinius> 5.0.x
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518 [05:10:21] <aedinius> laptop: stable, testing, sid? what version of debian are you on?
519 [05:10:48] <laptop> stable
520 [05:10:56] <aedinius> okay. is that on 5.x?
521 [05:11:08] <aedinius> 5.x seems new for stable
522 [05:11:15] <laptop> yes
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524 [05:14:11] <donst> hello big channel, do you think sheepshaver could run debian?
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526 [05:14:48] <donst> the thing is sheepshaver is available for ios and I wonder who's faster
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528 [05:15:02] <donst> powerpc sheepshaver emulation vs bochs x86
529 [05:15:54] <aedinius> laptop: how'd you get 5.0?
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531 [05:16:08] <laptop> i downloaded it
532 [05:16:13] <laptop> using antix
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534 [05:16:59] <jmcnaught> !antix
535 [05:16:59] <dpkg> antiX is a fast, lightweight and easy to install systemd-free linux live CD distribution based on Debian Stable for Intel-AMD x86 compatible systems ( replaced-url
536 [05:17:24] <aedinius> jmcnaught and the bot got to it before me
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538 [05:18:21] <jmcnaught> laptop: my advice would be to stick with the kernel that works if there's nothing wrong with it, linux 5 isn't anything special it's just an arbitrary version number
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541 [05:19:08] <aedinius> Either pick a stable distro and stick with it (debian, fedora, etc) or choose something cutting edge and deal with that (arch, void, etc)
542 [05:19:25] <aedinius> Don't try to mix and stuff.
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544 [05:19:49] <aedinius> And ask for support in the channel or wherever most supported for support for that.
545 [05:20:18] <laptop> ok thanks
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547 [05:20:33] <laptop> i thought linux 5 had the new google encryption for slow computeres
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550 [05:21:20] <jmcnaught> maybe it does, but will you notice the difference?
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556 [05:26:28] <laptop> i have amd athlon x2 1.7 ghz 2 gb ram and nvidia 7150/630n card
557 [05:26:52] <laptop> xfce is too slow for this thing
558 [05:26:59] <laptop> it is lxde or iceweasel
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561 [05:27:07] <laptop> or trinity for me
562 [05:27:39] <aedinius> So you'd really only notice it if things were using it, and I doubt things will use it
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565 [05:28:18] <laptop> okay so luks would be good enough
566 [05:28:28] <laptop> compared wtih adantium
567 [05:28:33] <aedinius> Which encryption were you referring to? I remember in 4.17 there was the NSA sponsored encryption, but it was dropped in 4.20
568 [05:28:42] <laptop> google adamantium
569 [05:28:58] <laptop> google adiantum
570 [05:29:10] <laptop> replaced-url
571 [05:30:10] <aedinius> lscpu | grep --color=always aes
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573 [05:30:42] <aedinius> you might have hardware aes accel
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576 [05:32:36] <laptop> dont think so I checked
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584 [05:42:08] <Tom-_> copying and pasting with gpm stopped working in vim jessie -> stretch
585 [05:42:31] <Tom-_> can someone please tell me how to get it working again
586 [05:43:26] <Tom-_> okay i searched and found replaced-url
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609 [06:06:02] <rant> I fell asleep just thinking about learning to do something in blender
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752 [08:35:15] <OnceMe> I have an issue with crontabs, I'm getting Path '/tmp/crontab.BMjmuL' is not accessible (in nano editor) and when I exit it, I get no crontab for onceme - using an empty one Temporary crontab no longer owned by you.Error while editing crontab. What do you I do?
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903 [09:40:06] <bopappy> y0, the modern debian installer sucks. Trying to open a terminal with alt+fx , getting terminal only to find busybox not able to install wifi firmware by cli. back in the 90s I mounted a vfat partition and installed the entire debian distro from that. Today, on one hand there is slackware and openbsd then there is fedora/opensuse
904 [09:40:37] <bopappy> debian sits in between the only thing it does right is try to fill your hard disk with random data before encrypting it
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931 [09:54:27] <rant> dpkg, firmware images
932 [09:54:27] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> and DVD installer images containing non-free Debian firmware packages are available for installing Debian 9 "Stretch". See replaced-url
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984 [10:29:27] <krion> hey !
985 [10:29:47] <krion> it's me again with my damn boring pinning/repository stuff related problem...
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987 [10:30:01] <krion> jelly: how you doing with this sunny friday !?
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991 [10:31:30] <Fox> might not be sunny everywhere in the world :)
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1041 [11:19:48] <paidjemz> hello
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1044 [11:20:07] <paidjemz> can someone reply?
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1047 [11:20:32] <humpled> it's best to just go ahead and ask your question paidjemz
1048 [11:21:17] <humpled> assuming you've already framed it succintly
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1050 [11:21:37] <krion> paidjemz: hello
1051 [11:21:41] <krion> !ask
1052 [11:21:42] <dpkg> If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>.
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1058 [11:22:58] <__m4ch1n3__> is there a way to make history command not enumerate lines?
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1064 [11:26:36] <colo-work> __m4ch1n3__, while read -r _ line; do printf '%s\n' "$line"; done < <(history)
1065 [11:26:50] <colo-work> (this might break with multi-line history entries, if they exist?)
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1072 [11:29:30] <__m4ch1n3__> ahhh just relized i could simply "cat $HOME/.bash_history" :D
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1074 [11:31:10] <colo-work> that's not necessarily the same state as what `history` yields though
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1078 [11:33:41] <EdePopede> and even less with alternative history (pst, $HISTFILE)
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1084 [11:34:39] <__m4ch1n3__> aoh yes
1085 [11:34:43] <__m4ch1n3__> *ah
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1109 [11:48:24] <FriedEggBanjo> clear
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1114 [11:50:00] <hizb> hi
1115 [11:50:12] <hizb> هلا
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1123 [11:52:02] <hizb> اØد يرد
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1141 [11:57:04] <AnononA> for sid upgrade whats best option netinstaller or sourcelist safe upgrade
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1150 [12:05:33] <__m4ch1n3__> there is an sid install media?
1151 [12:05:59] <__m4ch1n3__> thought sid upgrades are always through apt
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1170 [12:14:31] <rant> yes sid upgrades via apt
1171 [12:14:45] <rant> directly from an official mirror
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1175 [12:17:02] <AnononA> if i just wanted to upgrade the nvidia driver from sid repo would that work
1176 [12:17:11] <AnononA> my graphics card is supported for all drivers
1177 [12:18:09] <rant> AnononA: sid is not supported here, but generally speaking upgrade of a single package can be done just by apt install package
1178 [12:18:44] <AnononA> yes but latest driver isnt within stretch
1179 [12:18:49] <AnononA> repos
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1181 [12:18:58] <rant> the install directive first looks to see if something is installed, if so, checks to see if an update is available and if so updates it, and if not, it checks to see if its auto installed and sets it to manual if it is
1182 [12:19:07] <rant> ,v nvidia-driver
1183 [12:19:08] <judd> Package: nvidia-driver on amd64 -- jessie/non-free: 340.106-1; stretch/non-free: 390.87-8~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates/non-free: 390.116-1; buster/non-free: 410.104-3; sid/non-free: 418.56-2
1184 [12:19:30] <rant> AnononA: do you actually have an issue that requires the newer driver?
1185 [12:20:03] <AnononA> couple of games arent at there best and give waring saying game may not work properly
1186 [12:20:14] <AnononA> plus later version have better performance fixes
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1192 [12:21:12] <rant> AnononA: if you are going to want to stay on the bleeding edge, while this is typically not advisable here, you may just be better off maintaining the driver upgrades yourself directly from nvidia
1193 [12:21:42] <rant> because in reality thats likely to cause less problems than trying to use a sid non-free dkms driver in stable
1194 [12:22:22] <rant> graphics drivers are more troublesome in this regard because they have many components they are not only kernel modules
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1197 [12:23:05] <rant> and in debian they are not a single package, but several packages.. all which have potential to cause breakage or result in frankendebian
1198 [12:23:34] <rant> either way if you can't use the stable driver, you are putting yourself in an unsupportable state
1199 [12:23:46] <AnononA> ok so get the .run from nvidia then
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1201 [12:24:33] <AnononA> i had that installed eirlier this week then couldnt get steam to work but now steam is installed if i purge the nvidia drivers then start with latest from nvidia will be easier to maintain
1202 [12:24:41] <rant> AnononA: are you of the necessary skill to fix graphics issues on your own?
1203 [12:24:48] <AnononA> is that what your saying
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1205 [12:25:18] <AnononA> some yes but on this level i would need resaerch and maybe bit of help
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1207 [12:25:31] <rant> AnononA: if you are aware of the risks, "void of warranty" kinda stuff, and really want to stay on the bleeding edge with this driver, then yes, I believe directly from nvidia is the safest option
1208 [12:25:38] <AnononA> im getting alot more envolved with debian these days
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1211 [12:26:03] <rant> you will need to download and install the updates yourself regularly, you will need to be able to fix your system if it breaks.. cause we can't support it..etc
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1214 [12:26:34] <AnononA> i understand and thanks for advice i really appreciate it
1215 [12:26:46] <rant> AnononA: other options would be either running sid, which also would require more advanced knowledge..
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1218 [12:27:45] <AnononA> worse comes to worse id do a format if everything went really bad. back to stable but i want to get the most out of my card with debian
1219 [12:28:03] <AnononA> more i go through the more i learn
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1221 [12:28:34] <AnononA> if i run into problems i cant solve myself would you care if i dropped back in and shot you couple of questions
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1224 [12:28:48] <rant> AnononA: you could also try a dual boot with sid and stable so you could have a fallback
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1227 [12:29:11] <AnononA> im dual boot now windows 10 debian 9.8 stretch
1228 [12:29:17] <AnononA> so triboot
1229 [12:29:21] <AnononA> hmmm
1230 [12:29:40] <AnononA> is purge the best option to remove drivers
1231 [12:29:46] <rant> yes well you could probably create two / and one /home and use same /home on both
1232 [12:29:49] <AnononA> coz when i did the drivers i had to have the correct headers
1233 [12:29:59] <AnononA> never thought of that
1234 [12:30:06] <__m4ch1n3__> what are you talking about? drivers are part of kernel
1235 [12:30:12] <rant> apt --purge remove *nvidia*
1236 [12:30:14] <__m4ch1n3__> except nvida
1237 [12:30:19] <AnononA> kernal headers
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1239 [12:30:37] <rant> graphics drivers are kernel, xorg, dri/drm/glx etc they have many parts
1240 [12:30:46] <rant> sometimes even firmware too
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1244 [12:32:04] <__m4ch1n3__> purge just removes config files additionally
1245 [12:32:06] <rant> __m4ch1n3__: its also not really safe in any regard to jump to that conclusion cause there are things like fuse and such
1246 [12:32:18] <AnononA> what i followed with success was this replaced-url
1247 [12:32:45] <rant> __m4ch1n3__: which you want to do in this case, cause nvidia components will sometimes have such things like x configs and such
1248 [12:32:46] <AnononA> has diffrent headerss per version
1249 [12:33:52] <AnononA> wont they get generated with the run file anyway
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1251 [12:33:59] <AnononA> xconfig
1252 [12:34:04] <__m4ch1n3__> I dont want that, use own custom xorg.conf :3
1253 [12:34:26] <AnononA> whats wrong with default
1254 [12:34:27] <AnononA> ?
1255 [12:34:36] <__m4ch1n3__> doesnt work with PRIME synchronization
1256 [12:34:42] <rant> yes, there is nvidia-xconfig or such iirc.. but w/e the problem with this stuff is that the upstream and debian stuff work differently
1257 [12:35:04] <rant> by default debian doesn't configure X, it lets it auto-detect
1258 [12:35:17] <rant> we haven't used an x config in a long time
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1260 [12:35:48] <AnononA> .run method isnt compatible with debian packages
1261 [12:35:53] <AnononA> is that what you mean
1262 [12:36:08] <rant> its a black box for the most part
1263 [12:36:38] <AnononA> ok what drivers do you run
1264 [12:36:43] <AnononA> are you nvidia
1265 [12:36:53] <rant> no, I have a 4th gen Core i5
1266 [12:37:02] <AnononA> ahh ok
1267 [12:37:07] <rant> all my drivers are built i
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1269 [12:37:32] <AnononA> is there packages from nvidia driver package that steam needs
1270 [12:37:37] <rant> even with the upstream .run you still are required to keep the appropriate kernel-headers package for your kernel installed as well as build-essential
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1272 [12:37:50] <rant> because the upstream driver will need to build kernel modules
1273 [12:37:52] <__m4ch1n3__> yes, thats another reson, my xorg.conf is minimal required config for prime synchronization i brutforced
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1275 [12:38:31] <AnononA> could you simplify that last bit for me
1276 [12:38:36] <__m4ch1n3__> tried to let Xorg autoconfig as much as possible
1277 [12:38:51] <AnononA> gotcha
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1280 [12:39:05] <rant> AnononA: apt install build-essential kernel-headers-amd64
1281 [12:39:09] <__m4ch1n3__> and have only the minimal settings that a recommented by PRIME synchronization
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1284 [12:40:19] <__m4ch1n3__> replaced-url
1285 [12:40:41] <rant> I wouldnt touch that optimus shit
1286 [12:40:50] <__m4ch1n3__> mine is way shorter then that
1287 [12:40:59] <rant> idk why you're even bringing it up.. there was no mention of that I saw
1288 [12:41:20] <rant> vast majority of people with nvidia don't have optimus
1289 [12:42:16] <__m4ch1n3__> yeah PRIME synchronization is turning intel gpu off without screentearing, its actually about turning optimus device into a nvidia only
1290 [12:42:22] <AnononA> i have not got optimus anyway
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1292 [12:42:58] <__m4ch1n3__> and it took 8 years from optimus devices to xserver that can revert that shit
1293 [12:43:12] <__m4ch1n3__> *reverse
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1296 [12:43:40] <qqz> I have an EEE PC with 4GB flash hard disk
1297 [12:43:51] <AnononA> so when editing nvidia x server setting gui options is that all editing xorg
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1299 [12:44:02] <qqz> after installing the base system and LXDE I have 99% of my hard disk used
1300 [12:44:08] <qqz> what can I do?
1301 [12:44:09] <rant> lenovo had made a laptop with dual cpus.. x86 and arm for similar purposes of saving power on basic computing
1302 [12:44:24] <rant> qqz: get a bigger disk, install less stuff
1303 [12:44:37] <rant> !de usage
1304 [12:44:37] <dpkg> i guess de usage is The HDD/RAM usages of the 7 Stretch DE on amd64 VirtualBoxes with 1GB RAM / 32GB HDD are as follows as reported with only their terminals running df -Th and free -h: GNOME 4.2G 726M, KDE 4.1G 604M, Cinnamon 3.7G 482M, MATE 3.1G 215M, LXQt 3.1G 184M, LXDE 3.0G 180M, XFCE 2.9G 226M
1305 [12:44:53] <qqz> rant: no that is impossible
1306 [12:45:03] <qqz> with Xandros there was plenty of space left
1307 [12:45:07] <rant> qqz: you seriously underestimate possibilities
1308 [12:45:14] <__m4ch1n3__> replaced-url
1309 [12:45:24] <AnononA> thanks for help guys ill do abit more reading ive noted some of the convo for resource
1310 [12:45:24] <qqz> isn´t there some software that I can uninstall
1311 [12:45:34] <qqz> or would you recommend me another distribution?
1312 [12:45:37] <__m4ch1n3__> thats the most minimal config i could figure out to make PRIME synchronization work
1313 [12:45:55] <rant> qqz: as you can see from that factoid I made above, LXDE is 3.0GB when installed from the installer. You prob also have swap or such
1314 [12:46:23] <qqz> no I have no swap
1315 [12:46:25] <rant> __m4ch1n3__: are you high?
1316 [12:46:29] <qqz> so uninstall LXDE then
1317 [12:46:34] <qqz> is XFCE smaller?
1318 [12:46:35] <__m4ch1n3__> lol why?
1319 [12:46:40] <qqz> or is there an alternative?
1320 [12:46:41] <rant> qqz: marginally..
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1323 [12:46:53] <rant> qqz: you can piece together your own system with what you feel you need
1324 [12:47:13] <rant> __m4ch1n3__: cause you're the ONLY one talking about optimus/prime.. nobody else mentioned it :P
1325 [12:47:21] <qqz> rant: how to do that?
1326 [12:47:37] <rant> qqz: I take it you're not very experienced with linux?
1327 [12:47:53] <qqz> what software is not absolutely necessary to boot the X-Server and show a menu
1328 [12:48:00] <qqz> and a console
1329 [12:48:03] <qqz> I do not need more
1330 [12:48:09] <qqz> perhaps use twm or so?
1331 [12:48:35] <rant> qqz: I recommend you install again with desktop system unselected.. in fact don't install anything from the tasksel but "standard system utilities"
1332 [12:48:49] <rant> qqz: then login on the console and issue an apt install command for what you want
1333 [12:48:50] <qqz> ok good; that I can do
1334 [12:49:04] <qqz> what would be a tiny shell with menu?
1335 [12:49:06] *** Quits: Elon_Satoshi (~elonsatos@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1336 [12:49:12] <qqz> or a good window manager?
1337 [12:49:17] *** Quits: lexiyntax (~dmarkle@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1338 [12:49:18] <rant> qqz: something like apt install lightdm xorg-core tint2 openbox
1339 [12:49:30] <rant> idk really.. what your preference would be
1340 [12:49:54] <rant> tint2 is a really lightweight panel, iirc it doesnt have a menu but the wm will likely have one depending on which one you choose
1341 [12:50:15] <rant> I dont recall of the *box which is smallest fluxbox, openbox,blackbox
1342 [12:50:32] <rant> there is also that matchbox or w/e
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1344 [12:50:39] <rant> ,i matchbox
1345 [12:50:40] <judd> Package matchbox (embedded, optional) in stretch/amd64: base X environment for resource-limited systems. Version: 1:5; Size: 2.9k; Installed: 27k
1346 [12:51:18] <humpled> if you've just installed and upgraded, i think there might be a lot of archived packages which you could throw out
1347 [12:51:49] <rant> qqz: replaced-url
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1350 [12:52:28] <rant> qqz: yes you could also see if "apt clean" frees up any space
1351 [12:52:44] <rant> but for the most part you need a smaller system than what you got for 4gb total disk space
1352 [12:53:09] <humpled> after a few years of use my root partition with xfce is 5.7G
1353 [12:53:55] <rant> qqz: for a fairly complete desktop-environment feel you probably wont find anything smaller than matchbox
1354 [12:54:03] <rant> but that may be a tad overkill
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1357 [12:54:34] <qqz> matchbox is larger and more feature rich than openbox?
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1360 [12:55:11] <rant> well matchbox tries to be more like a full de, where openbox is just a wm
1361 [12:56:24] <rant> qqz: I'm installing with matchbox into a vm with 4gb disk right now to see
1362 [12:56:24] <qqz> how to run apt-clean?
1363 [12:56:33] <rant> qqz: just type apt clean as root
1364 [12:56:42] <rant> it removes any downloaded/cached packages
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1367 [12:58:35] <qqz> does perhaps the package cache pollute the disk space?
1368 [12:59:27] <qqz> what about /var/cache/apt?
1369 [12:59:55] <buttros_> Hello everyone! Does this channel provide support for Kali Linux?
1370 [13:00:03] <rant> qqz: thats what it cleans
1371 [13:00:13] <rant> buttros_: no it provides support for debian stable
1372 [13:00:16] <rant> !kali
1373 [13:00:17] <dpkg> Kali Linux (replaced-url
1374 [13:00:42] <buttros_> OK Thanks!
1375 [13:00:50] <rant> I hit a snag on setting up the VM, for some reason my virtualbox is only showing 32bit right now.. ugh..
1376 [13:01:49] * rant uses the 32bit installer for now
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1378 [13:02:17] <rant> I never seen it do that before.. it is only emulating 32bit for some odd reason
1379 [13:02:28] <rant> doesnt even show any 64bit OS as options
1380 [13:03:03] * rant reboots to check bios for virt options turned off :P
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1383 [13:04:43] <ov3rmind> hello great guys, thanks a lot for ever help me
1384 [13:04:55] *** Joins: linuxson (~linuxson@replaced-ip )
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1386 [13:05:45] *** Joins: jack (~jack@replaced-ip )
1387 [13:05:48] <ov3rmind> it's a nice day, a good time here to say good morning!
1388 [13:05:51] *** Joins: dpkg (~dpkg@replaced-ip )
1389 [13:05:59] <rant> yep, virt was disabled.. I switched from an x240 to a t440 not long ago and they look so similiar and I took the ssd from there so I think I'm on same machine.. heh.. guess I never enabled virt on this machine
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1393 [13:06:36] <linuxson> hey guys, need some help detecting and setting up the wifi adapter on my Mecer MyLife Z140C+ laptop. Installation is not detecting the hardware, and I cant find any references online to what chipset it is
1394 [13:07:12] *** Quits: Qiz (~Qizzy@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1395 [13:07:15] <rant> linuxson: if you are trying to install debian over wifi you should be using the special firmware installer image
1396 [13:07:22] <rant> !firmware installer
1397 [13:07:22] <dpkg> Debian-Installer is able to load additional <firmware>, by including it within installation media or supplying on removable media (e.g. USB stick, floppy). See replaced-url
1398 [13:07:26] *** Quits: pingfloyd (~pingfloyd@replaced-ip ) (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
1399 [13:07:28] <rant> !firmware images
1400 [13:07:28] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> and DVD installer images containing non-free Debian firmware packages are available for installing Debian 9 "Stretch". See replaced-url
1401 [13:08:04] <Guest6026> hello
1402 [13:08:09] <linuxson> Nope, debian is already installed, just trying to get my wifi working. Currently using a USB RJ45 adapter
1403 [13:08:09] <Guest6026> hello
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1407 [13:08:49] <rant> linuxson: then enable non-free repos and install firmware-linux-nonfree or check lspci -nn and tell us which wifi adapter it is
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1413 [13:10:15] <linuxson> rant, cool, will tryyour first suggestion first, cause lspci is not picking it up either
1414 [13:10:33] <linuxson> rant, used the netinstall media as it was a smaller download at first
1415 [13:10:37] <rant> qqz: defaults are also a 5% reserve for filesystem, this can be set in partitioner during install or later with tune2fs
1416 [13:10:45] <rant> linuxson: check lsusb too
1417 [13:10:59] <rant> linuxson: if one of these dont see it, firmware wont help
1418 [13:11:15] <rant> linuxson: paste output of lspci -nn; lsusb on paste.debian.net
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1421 [13:12:13] <rant> qqz: 5% of 4gb is only like 200MB though you'd have unavailable
1422 [13:12:47] <rant> and really with that little disk space you probably would be better off keeping a reserve
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1425 [13:15:02] <qqz> ok; good then, will reinstall in the afternoon
1426 [13:15:34] <rant> qqz: I'm setting up some vm to play around and see what works
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1428 [13:15:56] *** Quits: linuxson (~linuxson@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
1429 [13:16:27] <qqz> rant: thanks a lot; I will come online again then
1430 [13:16:30] <rant> qqz: gonna clone this base install I just did and see what file size is like with and without the "standard system utilities"
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1432 [13:17:17] <AnononA> Hey guys so i uninstalled nvidia-driver evan purged and when ever i restart driver is still there and cant use .run
1433 [13:17:21] *** Joins: linuxson (~linuxson@replaced-ip )
1434 [13:17:27] <linuxson> rant, replaced-url
1435 [13:17:42] <qqz> could I install without standard system utilities as well?
1436 [13:17:59] <rant> qqz: with just the standard system utilities the install is only 864M for amd64
1437 [13:17:59] <AnononA> says nvidia driver still there now when i go to try uninstall again it says its already been removed
1438 [13:18:07] <rant> qqz: standard system utils are things like less and such..
1439 [13:18:13] *** Quits: yokisuci (~yokisuci@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1440 [13:18:20] <rant> qqz: I can get you a list and size difference.. just need a few moments
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1443 [13:19:41] <rant> qqz: after removing the "laptop" task and doing apt clean I'm down to 836M
1444 [13:19:59] <qqz> how to remove the laptop task?
1445 [13:20:11] <rant> I just ran tasksel from the terminal after install
1446 [13:20:14] <qqz> I wanna have upower and power and battery management though?
1447 [13:20:17] <rant> removes stuff like bluetooth packages and such
1448 [13:20:29] <rant> yeah and probably that too..
1449 [13:20:39] <rant> lemme get into the apt logs here..
1450 [13:21:08] <qqz> ahh it is displayed by tasksel
1451 [13:21:19] <rant> LtL: you're missing the lsusb output
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1453 [13:21:35] <rant> linuxson: ^
1454 [13:21:42] <linuxson> rant, replaced-url
1455 [13:21:53] <linuxson> Sorry, got disconnected there for a second
1456 [13:22:23] <linuxson> rant, I missed what you are refering to, could you please type again?
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1458 [13:22:38] <rant> linuxson: that was it.. what you just pasted
1459 [13:22:53] <rant> linuxson: see on this machine even your ethernet is on USB not PCI
1460 [13:23:14] <humpled> another option for low disk space could be a live distro with syslinux and persistence
1461 [13:23:16] <linuxson> rant, like I said,its a USB network adaptor
1462 [13:23:44] <linuxson> rant, had to switch to a wired connection because my wireless doesnt work
1463 [13:23:48] <humpled> i had one with openbox for quite a while on a laptop with no hard drive, it's surprisingly stable,
1464 [13:24:15] *** Quits: AnononA (~AnononA@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
1465 [13:24:29] <qqz> rant: thanks for the additional hints; I will shut down in a minute except if you have yet untold suggestions
1466 [13:24:33] <linuxson> rant, Ive already set management to true in my conf file, and restarted the network manager, still no luck
1467 [13:24:35] <rant> linuxson: yeah the kernel isnt seeing any wifi, if its built in it could be disabled by the bios
1468 [13:24:55] <rant> linuxson: I'd check bios and full output of journalctl or dmesg
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1472 [13:25:17] <linuxson> rant, Not so sure if its disabled in bios, because it was working just fine before I flashed Debian (coming from Manjaro)
1473 [13:26:25] <rant> qqz: matchbox says its only gonna be 84M of additional space
1474 [13:26:45] <rant> qqz: might also want something like lightdm for graphical login idk if matchbox supplies a DM
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1477 [13:27:34] <ceptor> /msg dpkg jessie->stretch
1478 [13:27:36] *** Quits: yokisuci (~yokisuci@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1479 [13:27:43] <linuxson> rant, replaced-url
1480 [13:27:53] <linuxson> rant, Output from journalctl
1481 [13:27:54] *** Joins: ae-35 (~ae-35@replaced-ip )
1482 [13:29:14] <linuxson> rant, replaced-url
1483 [13:29:22] <linuxson> rant, Output from dmesg
1484 [13:29:59] <rant> linuxson: journalctl includes the kernel buffer it was more an either/or thing.. heh.. journalctl is more info
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1486 [13:30:37] *** Joins: BCMM (~BCMM@replaced-ip )
1487 [13:30:40] <linuxson> rant, hehe....sorry, bit of a perfectionist
1488 [13:30:58] <rant> I personally prefer dmesg its cleaner.. journalctl output is everything mashed together without further options
1489 [13:31:45] <linuxson> rant, yeah...dmesg is MUCH cleaner
1490 [13:31:53] *** Quits: indibart (~andy@replaced-ip ) (Quit: indibart)
1491 [13:32:30] <rant> qqz: having removed task laptop, with "standard system utilties" only selected during install and nothing else, then installing apt install matchbox lightdm I have a system weighing in at 1.2G on amd64
1492 [13:32:33] *** Joins: indibart (~andy@replaced-ip )
1493 [13:33:18] <rant> qqz: that alone could be slimmed a bit as the lightdm pulls in the entire xorg, all video drivers, etc..
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1496 [13:33:32] <qqz> yes; that will be good since I plan to install some freedict dictionaries
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1498 [13:34:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1516
1499 [13:34:03] * rant starts lightdm to get a look at matchbox
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1507 [13:35:46] <rant> qqz: yeah this is WAY basic :P
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1513 [13:38:32] <rant> qqz: replaced-url
1514 [13:39:09] <humpled> who needs a login manager
1515 [13:39:19] <rant> qqz: what you see there was only 84MB though, the bulk of the usage came from xorg/lightdm install.. mostly xorg..
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1518 [13:40:58] <qqz> looks good
1519 [13:41:56] <rant> qqz: yeah I am not sure this is what you want though.. I think its more meant for embedded kiosk style use.. I think I can get somethig comparable in size with better functionality
1520 [13:42:03] <rant> possibly even less in size
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1522 [13:42:47] <qqz> ok; good; shall I come online later on, shall I leave konversation open
1523 [13:42:50] <rant> gonna try this next vm without the standard system utils and installing only the bare minimum xorg packages required and see what the smallest is I can get just x, then clone and go from there
1524 [13:43:08] <qqz> rant: .. or would you even send me via email to estellnb@elstel.org?
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1526 [13:43:14] <rant> qqz: if you close your client I can put you on notify and know when you rejoin, otheriws you can ping me
1527 [13:43:35] *** Quits: teclo- (42@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1528 [13:43:40] <rant> qqz: possibly.. you shouldnt post emails anywhere.. things get spammy :P
1529 [13:44:06] <qqz> ok; good let us meet on irc (if not on email before)
1530 [13:44:29] <qqz> the email is world readable at replaced-url
1531 [13:44:43] <rant> ah.. its a mailbin?
1532 [13:45:15] <rant> guess you didnt need to be worried then :P
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1535 [13:46:23] * rant makes a smallest base+x and clones to try mix/match stuff from there
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1539 [13:49:28] <rant> linuxson: yeah the kernel doesnt seem to see any other network device other than the usb ethernet
1540 [13:50:03] <qqz> no there is no AI to presort the emails like for mailbin
1541 [13:50:20] <qqz> just the spam filter of my provider dotplex.de (which also offers DANE)
1542 [13:50:36] <qqz> or what do you mean by mailbin?
1543 [13:51:01] *** BitterMuffin is now known as DomaMuffin
1544 [13:51:39] <rant> qqz: like mailinator.com where you can makeup and ol address and as soon as mail comes in to that adress it creates the mailbox on the fly and all you need to know to check the malbox is the email, there is no password or login
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1547 [13:52:55] <qqz> ahh something like temporary disposable emails
1548 [13:53:14] <qqz> no elstel.org is my webpage, it has been the same for years
1549 [13:53:37] <rant> linuxson: replaced-url
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1551 [13:53:49] <rant> linuxson: its not standard pci or usb I guess
1552 [13:54:05] <rant> linuxson: its more embedded on an SoC with the CPU
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1556 [13:56:12] <linuxson> rant, hmmmm....so what are my options?
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1558 [13:57:05] <rant> linuxson: idk yet so far I see no i2s or uart in your dmesg, and only sdio is a memory card reader.. so again, kernel isnt seeing it
1559 [13:57:14] <rant> linuxson: are you sure its not disabled in the bios?
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1561 [13:57:35] <linuxson> rant, I could check, but didnt notice an option for wifi in there
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1563 [13:58:08] <rant> linuxson: look at everything and make sure.. I'll keep digging see if I can find any mention of cherry trail embedded wifi working on any linux
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1614 [14:27:54] <anonyan> hello. can i use openrc insteal of systemd?
1615 [14:28:33] <anonyan> as i understand than there is no official support? nut there are all almost necessary packages in official repo
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1622 [14:31:39] <PaulePanter> Hi. replaced-url
1623 [14:31:47] <PaulePanter> It’s now at replaced-url
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1625 [14:31:56] <PaulePanter> How can this be updated.
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1628 [14:32:35] <Ticho_> is anyone here experienced with chrony the timekeeping daemon? I'd like to know if I can control after how long period of a server time source being unreachable will the daemon mark it as such
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1632 [14:33:34] <EdePopede> PaulePanter: the VCS link to the Git? there's plenty of them, should be done by some script on the server
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1659 [14:49:04] <PaulePanter> EdePopede: Understood.
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1690 [15:16:03] <dob1> hi, I am stuck at the installer on creation the partions. It complains about the uefi partition but I don't understand how to create it
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1693 [15:16:45] <rant> that linuxson never came back.. but I suspect after researching that the Cherry Trail is supported in 4.11 or better.. the 4.9 kernel is just too old as the SoC came out in Aug 2016
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1695 [15:17:35] <rant> dob1: are you dual-booting?
1696 [15:17:43] <dob1> rant, no, it's a new hdd
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1699 [15:18:18] <rant> dob1: then unless the system can't do it, disable UEFI, its microsoft crap and just a headache with no benefit
1700 [15:18:29] <dob1> rant, and how can I do this?
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1702 [15:18:37] <rant> like WGA its just another way to keep you out of your computer
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1704 [15:18:48] <rant> dob1: most systems can disable it in the bios
1705 [15:19:07] <rant> I have it turned off in this Thinkpad T440
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1709 [15:20:11] <dob1> rant, there was a point where debian installer asked about (I don't remember it all) : do you want to use uefi or keep bios compatibility? I answered UEFI. But now even going back on the installer I am not able to return to this question
1710 [15:20:55] <rant> dob1: reboot your system, enter the bios setup, look for and disable any UEFI stuff, set it to legacy, then just use normal bios compat
1711 [15:21:10] <rant> if you're only at partitioning, you havent made any significant progress yet
1712 [15:21:13] <dob1> rant, I can't. I am installing via ssh
1713 [15:21:39] <rant> ah.. well there it is :P
1714 [15:21:41] <dob1> and there is nobody there
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1718 [15:22:03] <dob1> rant, can you explain me why I can't proceed? just to understand
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1721 [15:22:30] <dob1> and why debian can't create a uefi partition? is something proprietary?
1722 [15:22:39] <rant> dob1: you probably can, if you go read up on the wiki about uefi.. but I would just stop and wait till I could disable uefi
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1724 [15:22:47] <rant> dob1: yes, its entirely proprietary
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1726 [15:23:12] <rant> it was made for and by microsoft and only keys that work for it afaik are microsoft keys
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1731 [15:23:20] <rant> !uefi
1732 [15:23:20] <dpkg> Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) is a firmware interface specification, intended to replace the <BIOS> firmware interface. Debian 7 "Wheezy" and later releases support installation in (U)EFI mode on 64-bit PC systems (amd64), <secure boot> is currently not supported. replaced-url
1733 [15:23:41] <dob1> rant, just to understand. uefi is the new "bios" interface?
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1735 [15:23:50] <dob1> let's call it the "fancy" one ?
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1737 [15:24:30] <rant> dob1: no, its more like Windows Genuine Advantage, its designed to keep you out of your computer.. its mostly just to insure you're running only the software that came with the machine
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1739 [15:25:04] <rant> it checks the uefi parition on the drive and looks for a key that is authorized to boot on the machine
1740 [15:25:11] <rant> its like copy protection on media
1741 [15:25:19] <rant> DRM for boot disks
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1744 [15:25:48] <rant> its not a bad idea in and of itself.. its just who comissioned intel to do it..
1745 [15:25:52] <rant> and how they did it
1746 [15:25:54] <dob1> but on wikipedia it says "it replaced BIOS"
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1750 [15:26:53] <rant> yeah well thats not entirely accurate.. nor is the name UEFI
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1753 [15:28:22] <dob1> rant, not do doubt your help, but I am a bit confused from what I am reading
1754 [15:29:14] <LtL> dob1: don't trust everything you read on wikipedia
1755 [15:29:34] <dob1> I am reading various sites
1756 [15:29:53] <rant> dob1: the installer should be able to setup the ESP partition but basically what it comes down to is UEFI is annoying and not required in most all cases, and should be disabled if not running windows
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1763 [15:30:46] <dob1> The motherboard manufacturer will have implemented either BIOS or UEFI, it is stored in a ROM chip on the motherboard and not tied to the chipset or CPU.
1764 [15:30:49] <dob1> I read this
1765 [15:31:16] <dob1> and on other some articles I read that you need windows to disable UEFI
1766 [15:31:54] <LtL> dob1: that's just wrong
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1768 [15:32:40] <dob1> rant, where it creates this partition? for example I have to leave free space?
1769 [15:33:13] <rant> dob1: it should load the module partman-efi and do it in the partitioning
1770 [15:33:38] <dob1> rant, when?
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1773 [15:34:07] <rant> dob1: no clue.. I wouldnt use it.. and I can't simulate it with my VM so..
1774 [15:34:25] <dob1> can I make some "damage" if i try ?
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1779 [15:36:48] <rant> what I do know is.. the installer supports it, and has always been WIDHE compliant.. so if you had just When In Doubt Hit Enter it should've done it
1780 [15:37:06] <rant> you probably stopped it by pressing something other than enter and went into manual partitioning
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1785 [15:38:32] <dob1> rant, I found this replaced-url
1786 [15:38:39] <rant> so there should probably be some setting in there for setting up that ESP but I dont readily know.. cause I never used it.. UEFI to me is just going back to ancient legacy practices of needing a bootable flag on a partition of a certain size and blah blah blah..
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1789 [15:39:06] <dob1> no wait, there is EFI System partition as filesystem
1790 [15:39:10] <dob1> it's this?
1791 [15:39:16] <rant> yes
1792 [15:39:30] <rant> ESP stands for EFI System Partition
1793 [15:39:45] <rant> its a partition that contains the EFI bootloader and kernels and such
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1795 [15:40:19] <dob1> "Now you will see ESP flags on the partition list. There is one more steps: you have to toggle bootable option on this newly created ESP partition." why?
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1798 [15:40:53] <rant> because, as I was just saying "legacy" is more new-aged than this so-called new qand improved UEFI :P
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1802 [15:41:41] <dob1> rant, sorry I am lost :)
1803 [15:41:42] <rant> "legacy" bios hasnt required flags, fat partitions, partitions of a certain location or size, etc, ever since a GNU created a real bootloader
1804 [15:42:04] <dob1> this uefi partition is where it will be put grub ?
1805 [15:42:13] <rant> you just slapped a decent bootloadre like grub on the MBR of the disk and used whatever you wanted
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1809 [15:42:31] <rant> dob1: grub-efi, sure
1810 [15:42:44] <dob1> so it needs to be bootable
1811 [15:42:59] <rant> again, I have no idea.. but probably, yes
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1813 [15:43:25] <rant> like a lot of recent developments in computing, this was a step forward and two steps back
1814 [15:43:54] <rant> because it was a collaboration with morons with other agendas.. i.e. microsoft and intel
1815 [15:44:33] <dob1> ok but unfortunately a lot of times you can't decide with what you have to work
1816 [15:44:33] <rant> the legit purpose was to create a more extendable firmware system to support newer hardware going forward
1817 [15:44:47] <dob1> so better try to learn them, imho
1818 [15:45:05] <rant> you can if you dont meet any necessary criteria for using such crap, just set it to revert to legacy bios
1819 [15:45:43] <rant> as long as the disk is detected, and wont be running windows 10, there is no real need for having UEFI boot enabled
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1822 [15:46:11] <rant> I disabled UEFI and about half a dozen backdoors in mine
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1824 [15:46:29] <rant> fancy crap had a ton of remote management things running outside the OS
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1826 [15:47:14] <dob1> I have to wait someone will return where te pc is :)
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1831 [15:48:34] <dob1> rant, ok but you made an assumption: in every motherboard you can disalbe uefi, is this always true?
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1833 [15:49:07] <rant> dob1: for the most part to help your confusion, the main feature I'm talking about is "secure boot" and for the most part what you say about UEFI being a BIOS replacement is true
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1835 [15:50:20] <rant> dob1: however even back when we called it BIOS that was only the software.. and it was used interchangably to mean CMOS or other things.. and in the same way BIOS will continue to be used in much literature and in the kernel as a way to describe the software that exists on the mobo itself
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1839 [15:51:07] <rant> dob1: and while many will cite advnatages.. none of these have really been utilized and the only practical differences have been a buncha crap that keeps you out of your computer and lets people in remotely
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1841 [15:51:48] <rant> dob1: for the most part, yes, they all still have legacy mode and it doesnt require a microsoft filesystem to function
1842 [15:52:26] <dob1> rant, legacy or deprecated ?
1843 [15:52:35] <rant> there should be a UEFI replacing legacy bios.. it just shouldnt be like it is :P
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1845 [15:52:52] <rant> and since what it is.. can often be disabled, I say it should be
1846 [15:54:41] <rant> mine has UEFI Boot, SecureBoot, Comutrace, TPM, all kinda crap.. its all disabled
1847 [15:55:26] <dob1> rant, I have to tell the person on the pc to search for UEFI boot and disable it?
1848 [15:55:35] <dob1> this is what is called ?
1849 [15:55:55] <tachikomas> rant:you should run coreboot / seabios
1850 [15:56:25] <rant> could be.. could be called boot mode idk.. no idea what kinda computer we're talking about every BIOS/UEFI is different
1851 [15:56:39] <rant> tachikomas: idk that its available for my machine
1852 [15:56:46] <LtL> dob1: either disable UEFI or enable legacy BIOS booting and disable secure boot.
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1856 [15:57:13] <rant> even the mfgs dont know what to call this crap
1857 [15:57:24] <rant> mine calls it a UEFI BIOS
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1860 [15:57:38] <tachikomas> rant: what machine do you use ?
1861 [15:57:41] <rant> so how can one replace the other if it uses both terms to identify it? :P
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1863 [15:58:03] <rant> tachikomas: Lenovo Thinkpad T440 currently
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1865 [15:58:20] <tachikomas> rant: you should definitely find a coreboot version for this one
1866 [15:58:27] <rant> tachikomas: i recall reading about it and it didnt seem viable
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1868 [15:58:45] <tachikomas> i am using it on my daily driver on my x230
1869 [15:58:52] <rant> it also seemed more complicated than UEFI Boot to set it up :P
1870 [15:59:19] <rant> it wasnt like just going to your mfg site and downloading a flash util like the old days
1871 [15:59:41] <tachikomas> nah you need to use a raspberry and inject the bios by flashing the chip itself
1872 [15:59:42] <rant> sounded like it needed to be maticulously homebrewed and in many cases manually flashed like a jtag or something
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1875 [16:00:05] <tachikomas> while not powered :) but thats a fun opensource project
1876 [16:00:26] <rant> yeah, when I'm as nutty as RMS I'll get right on that..
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1879 [16:00:49] <rant> no wait.. if I was as nutty as RMS I wouldnt have bought this in the first place :P
1880 [16:01:08] <Corshine7> from scale 1-10 how good is ubuntu 19.04?
1881 [16:01:28] <rant> though technically I didnt buy it, I traded a buncha old T-series most broken in some way, for it
1882 [16:01:32] <dob1> Corshine7, not a good question here :)
1883 [16:01:40] <tachikomas> rant: :D
1884 [16:01:48] <Corshine7> lmao
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1888 [16:02:35] <rant> Corshine7: -∞
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1894 [16:05:48] <rant> Corshine7: Ubuntu is an ancient african word for can't install debian
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1899 [16:08:13] <wm4> is debian unstable in a release feature freeze mode?
1900 [16:08:27] <annadane> Corshine7, ##linux
1901 [16:08:34] <annadane> or um, #ubuntu
1902 [16:08:36] <wm4> how do I get the newest packages now
1903 [16:08:39] <rant> wm4: no thats Debian testing "Buster"
1904 [16:09:04] <wm4> I'm on unstable and lately there have been very little updates
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1906 [16:09:29] <rant> wm4: we're in a freeze.. devs are focused on releasing Debian 10
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1908 [16:09:41] <wm4> well that sucks
1909 [16:09:51] <wm4> I was hoping for the new mesa release, to test something
1910 [16:09:58] <JyZyXEL> rocks for the ones waiting on the update :)
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1913 [16:11:22] <rant> ,v libgl1-mesa-dri
1914 [16:11:23] <judd> Package: libgl1-mesa-dri on amd64 -- jessie: 10.3.2-1+deb8u1; stretch: 13.0.6-1+b2; stretch-backports: 18.2.8-2~bpo9+1; buster: 18.3.4-2; sid: 18.3.6-1; experimental: 19.0.2-1
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1916 [16:12:07] <rant> wm4: that version 18.3.6 IS the latest
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1919 [16:12:44] <jelly> !slushy
1920 [16:12:45] <dpkg> When a <testing> release becomes frozen, <unstable> tends to partially freeze as well. This is because developers are reluctant to upload radically new software to unstable, in case the frozen software in testing needs minor updates and to fix release critical bugs which keep testing from becoming <stable>.
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1922 [16:13:15] <wm4> rant: well Mesa 19 was released a month ago
1923 [16:13:23] <wm4> I'm interested in the freesync stuff
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1925 [16:13:38] <rant> wm4: the experimental preview version 19.0.2 is also available
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1928 [16:14:23] <dob1> I disabled secure boot but it's not enough, right?
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1931 [16:14:44] <rant> personally when I wanted to test something like a new sdl or mesa for something I compiled it in somewhere like /opt and used LD_PRELOAD or whatever that env var was
1932 [16:14:51] <jelly> !experimental
1933 [16:14:52] <dpkg> experimental is the bleeding edge of Debian Development. Packages here have been deemed unfit/DANGEROUS/untrustworthy/etc for release by the maintainer responsible for them. DO NOT INSTALL PACKAGES FROM EXPERIMENTAL WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY WHY AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING. #debian does _not_ support experimental. For an actual description, see section 4.6.4.3 of the Developer's Reference. replaced-url
1934 [16:15:26] <jelly> also, if you're on sid,
1935 [16:15:27] <rant> wm4: mesa 19 wasnt a stable release, its a dev release
1936 [16:15:28] <jelly> !debian-next
1937 [16:15:28] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
1938 [16:15:54] <annadane> i think mesa 18 is in backports, or something
1939 [16:16:12] <annadane> so if you want "a newer mesa" that may be an option but you specifically wated 19
1940 [16:16:15] <annadane> wanted
1941 [16:16:18] <jelly> backports mean crap for them if they're on sid
1942 [16:16:27] <annadane> oh they're on sid already? ok then
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1945 [16:16:54] <jelly> [14:09] <wm4> I'm on unstable and lately there have been very little updates
1946 [16:17:18] <rant> yeah I forgot about the slushy thing.. heh.. I just recall its normal for sid to slow a bit
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1948 [16:17:28] <rant> but there is no actual "freeze" of sid
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1950 [16:18:03] <rant> it really would also depend on the packages and maintainer in question
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1953 [16:18:10] <wm4> well I know it from past releases
1954 [16:18:28] <wm4> once the release is done there will be gigabytes of updates suddenly
1955 [16:18:39] <wm4> I think debian should have a rolling release
1956 [16:18:40] <rant> mesa is a rather large integral thing.. they're gonna wanna keep that close until release and focus on any RC bugs
1957 [16:18:47] <jelly> !nopony wm4
1958 [16:18:47] <dpkg> wm4: replaced-url
1959 [16:19:00] <rant> wm4: we do, its called ubuntu :P
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1961 [16:19:21] <wm4> well there are enough arguments in favor of rolling releases (and ubuntu has its longtime releases, not really rolling)
1962 [16:19:36] <jelly> there are certainly attempts like sidux, but they're not Debian
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1966 [16:20:13] <rant> I came here some 17ish years ago and stayed and use nothing but debian stable because I read their two docs the Social Contract and Why Debian? and I couldn't agree more
1967 [16:20:13] <jelly> wm4: arguments are worthless, please provide time or knowhow or money for devs to make it happen
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1969 [16:20:38] <jhutchins_wk> wm4: That's not what Debian is about. There are plenty of other distros.
1970 [16:20:42] <rant> the day any of that changes, I'll be considering other options
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1973 [16:21:21] <wm4> well don't complain that I'll use unstable as rolling distro
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1975 [16:21:45] <annadane> people do use sid as rolling and that's fine but it's not a true rolling distro like other distros focus on
1976 [16:22:07] <jelly> jhutchins_wk: well, debian is whatever DDs and DMs pick, there's nothing in DFSG or the social contract that prevents a rolling release to happen
1977 [16:22:22] <jelly> it's just a LOT of continuous work
1978 [16:22:25] <greycat> it's fine that people use sid as long as they understand that they are volunteering to be alpha-testers
1979 [16:22:25] <wm4> about dev resources, I tink the focus on the stable release is a waste (or rather, there could be a much smaller and in fact more stable server-only stable release)
1980 [16:22:57] <jelly> we'll have to disagree on that
1981 [16:23:03] <rant> jelly: the part about the priorities is my argument to that.. but it could go both ways
1982 [16:23:27] <rant> one could say the part about priorty being our users.. and if thats what the users want..
1983 [16:23:37] <rant> I say the part about stability being a priority
1984 [16:25:11] <wm4> I wouldn't mind stability if I didn't have to do a _very_ unstable upgrade every other year
1985 [16:25:28] <wm4> also as a developer, being on old versions can be a real pain
1986 [16:25:41] <rant> I always felt much as greycat expressed though.. that using testing/unstable should be more an obligation of a user to be a tester than to "circumvent" stable
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1988 [16:26:17] <rant> if you dont want to use stable just because you dont like it, and you are not actively participating in testing and release of a new stable, then you're not a debian user
1989 [16:26:18] <Fox> in "real" business production stable is the only acceptable choice
1990 [16:26:26] <petn-randall> this ^
1991 [16:26:39] <annadane> i find hat i need newer can be compiled/run in a vm/other computer/whatever
1992 [16:26:57] <annadane> it's assuring to know things don't change
1993 [16:27:12] <petn-randall> If you want the shinies and newest stuff, there are tons of distros that do just that. But you'll have to cope with the much higher frequency of bugs, too.
1994 [16:27:20] <petn-randall> *shiniest
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1997 [16:27:36] <qqz> rant: have you tested another setup?
1998 [16:27:37] <wm4> what business uses Linux on the desktop
1999 [16:27:37] <jhutchins_wk> wm4: As a developer, keeping compatibility with older releases has a very strong advantage. Requiring unstable bleeding-edge environments means you can never be taken seriously.
2000 [16:27:49] <rant> this is why I say no to rolling cause I seen ubuntu systems crash and burn on updates with their time-based schedule
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2002 [16:28:00] <petn-randall> wm4: 70% of the internet?
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2004 [16:28:19] <petn-randall> Oh, desktop. The city of munich, many universities, etc.
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2006 [16:28:34] <wm4> petn-randall: yeah, but that's servers
2007 [16:28:35] <rant> qqz: I got one with the most bare X and base that is 839M but has no DM/DE/WM or anything
2008 [16:28:35] <annadane> also "unstable upgrades"... YMMV but debian does try to make stable -> stable releases pain free
2009 [16:28:39] <jhutchins_wk> wm4: We're kind of small, I only manage around 1500 linux servers.
2010 [16:29:18] <jhutchins_wk> wm4: Who cares about desktops? They're disposable. They're phones.
2011 [16:29:18] <Fox> I've been dist-upgrading for 3 stable releases an never had a real/serious problem
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2014 [16:29:36] <rant> qqz: I was thinking about what route to go with it while devouring a pizza.. heh.. I was prob gonna try get something with a panel, wm, abiword, gnumeric, etc
2015 [16:29:45] <rant> maybe pcmanfm for the file manager
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2018 [16:31:02] <wm4> jhutchins_wk: well I'm using Linux on the desktop (at work too)
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2020 [16:31:46] <qqz> rant: perhaps I give a short description on my homepage on how to install Debian for low disk space
2021 [16:31:52] <rant> qqz: apt install xterm pcmanfm tint2 openbox will use 335MB additional putting below the 1.2G of matchbox and lightdm
2022 [16:32:13] <dob1> ok I am proceeding on disk partition. It is true that is better to not put a swap partition on ssd ?
2023 [16:32:49] <rant> qqz: tint2 is a decent lightweight panel, and openbox a rather minimal wm, pcmanfm is a decent looking lighter file manager I think is about as featureful as thunar/caja/nautilus but way smaller
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2026 [16:33:14] <qqz> rant: how to measure the disk space occupied by a certain number of packages?
2027 [16:34:01] <jhutchins_wk> dob1: If things are normal you won't be swapping,so it doesn't matter. If it were 1995 and you were constantly using the swap it might.
2028 [16:34:12] <annadane> the other thing is subjectively i find it can potentially be exhausting to constantly be in charge of updates
2029 [16:34:17] <annadane> and keeping track of what changed
2030 [16:34:25] <annadane> so that's partially also why some prefer stable
2031 [16:34:41] <rant> qqz: not sure how you mean but I just have this vm here with the base install (nothing selected during the installer) and then I told it apt install xserver-xorg at first boot and its 839MB on amd64, and then as I try apt install lines like the one I just told you, it tells me how much additional disk space will be used after install
2032 [16:34:50] <rant> qqz: I can just say no and try other ones and see
2033 [16:35:07] <dob1> jhutchins_wk, considering that I will have a "normal" hdd too, I can put the swap partition there then. just to have one
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2037 [16:36:10] <qqz> about removing laptop with tasksel: how can I make sure that it does not uninstall anything that may be of use like a battery monitor or so?
2038 [16:36:32] <rant> qqz: uninstalling the laptop task is negligable in size difference really
2039 [16:36:51] <rant> qqz: but any task is also a meta package typically
2040 [16:37:14] <rant> qqz: ie task-laptop
2041 [16:37:54] <rant> qqz: so you could say apt remove task-laptop which will only remove the empty metapackage.. then apt autoremove will then remove the packages which were auto-installed as dependencies..
2042 [16:38:26] <rant> qqz: if you see one you want to keep, say no on the autoremove, tell it apt install foo and it will mark foo as manual, then autoremove wont remove it
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2044 [16:38:52] <dob1> I am installing it, thanks rant for all the info about uefi :)
2045 [16:39:30] <rant> dob1: it was more bitching about it than anything :P
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2047 [16:41:32] <dob1> which desktop environment is the official one? xfce?
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2049 [16:41:55] <greycat> What do you mean by "official"?
2050 [16:42:00] <rant> there is no official one, gnome is installed if you dont specify
2051 [16:42:17] <rant> unless you downloaded something like the xfce iso
2052 [16:43:04] <dob1> greycat, I am on tasksel, I have "desktop environmet selected" then other choice GNOME, Xfce, etc (none of them selected). which one will be installed with just "desktop environment"?
2053 [16:43:10] <annadane> gnome
2054 [16:44:04] <wm4> I regret that ubuntu switched from unity to gnome
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2057 [16:45:39] <rant> I regret that gnome switched to gnome :P
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2059 [16:45:52] <dob1> the gnome shell no... I think I will go with mate or xfce
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2061 [16:46:15] <rant> yes I think mate, xfce, cinnamon are the most usable ones
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2063 [16:46:57] <rant> xfce had a lot of cool things but didnt feel as mature.. there were lil quirks and missing features
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2066 [16:48:10] <rant> the new mate in buster has several new panel applet packages that have different menus that make it feel more like cinnamon or lxde or such
2067 [16:48:28] <annadane> xfce in stretch is unfortunately a tad buggy
2068 [16:48:50] <greycat> I still don't use a desktop environment. fvwm 4ever.
2069 [16:49:34] <Fox> greycat: you're old (I am too, I use wmaker)
2070 [16:49:37] <annadane> (but i still use it because i really like its suite of applications and general way of doing things)
2071 [16:49:38] <dob1> so why there is "debian desktop environment" ( I am translating it) and then gnome again?
2072 [16:49:47] <rant> well some things that bugged me switching from mate to xfce for awhile was lack of certain polished off things like mate-volume-control or such.. plugging in external displays on vga or dp would not automatically recall my layout, I'd have to manually enable and configure them, etc..
2073 [16:49:59] <greycat> dob1: apparently someone thought it was a good idea
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2079 [16:51:52] <rant> one thing I think needs to be figured out is how to deal with multiple de so that a buncha redundant crap isnt cluttering the menu by default..
2080 [16:52:08] <dob1> greycat, maybe if I select just the desktop environment it doesn't install the graphical login?
2081 [16:52:55] <dob1> I mean If I select just gnome it doesn't install the graphical login (I don't remember the package name :)
2082 [16:53:11] <rant> dob1: gdm
2083 [16:53:28] <rant> ,i gdm3
2084 [16:53:29] <judd> Package gdm3 (gnome, optional) in stretch/amd64: GNOME Display Manager. Version: 3.22.3-3+deb9u2; Size: 654.5k; Installed: 4649k; Screenshot: replaced-url
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2088 [16:54:31] <annadane> it should instal graphical login, those tasksel packages install a crapload of stuff
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2091 [16:56:29] <rant> idk why it has one tasksel it calls tasksel in the installer with this confusing redundancy, and no mention of the "laptop" task it seems to install, then installs by default a totally different tasksel :P
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2094 [16:57:28] <johnjay> i just installed stretch and it asked if i wanted gdm3 or lightdm iirc
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2096 [16:57:34] <johnjay> i think it doesn't let you choose both?
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2098 [16:57:52] <dob1> johnjay, what you selected on tasksel?
2099 [16:57:53] <rant> thats just asking which to run probably cause you had both installed
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2101 [16:58:03] <johnjay> rant: oh yeah i think you're right
2102 [16:58:10] <johnjay> dob1: is tasksel used in the installer?
2103 [16:58:18] <rant> you can technically run two but youd have to configure one to run on a diff tty
2104 [16:58:27] <johnjay> the menus looked similar. xfce, kde, gnome,web server, ssh
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2106 [16:58:50] <dob1> I thought it was tasksel the screen with the software selections
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2110 [16:59:13] <johnjay> no rant is right. there's like two of them, one during install and then one from running the tasksel command
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2114 [16:59:25] * johnjay just wants to install groups of software like games or math without hassle
2115 [16:59:25] <brokencycle> Hi! I am having trouble with my IP filtering on my laptop.
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2119 [16:59:53] <annadane> tasksel packages are the default "desktop" packages
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2122 [17:00:13] <brokencycle> The trouble is that dnsmasq does not answer requests from my VMs (KVM, KVM2).
2123 [17:00:14] <annadane> gnomme kde mate xfce etc, shown in the installer; and they install a lot of misc. stuff some people may not want
2124 [17:00:21] <annadane> gnome*
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2127 [17:00:41] <annadane> i always uncheck all those and add what i want manually
2128 [17:00:55] <brokencycle> Upon inspecting, I find that there are two rulesets being installed, one in the nf_tables style,
2129 [17:01:01] <brokencycle> and one in the bpf style.
2130 [17:01:20] <brokencycle> These rule sets seem to be somehow not quite compatible.
2131 [17:01:41] <brokencycle> In my firehol config, I have added a "policy accept" for all the virtual interfaces,
2132 [17:02:05] <brokencycle> but I still get "DROP UNMATCHED IN-world:IN=virbr0 OUT= PHYSIN=vnet1" etc.
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2134 [17:02:59] <brokencycle> First step, how can I force firehol to use nf_tables?
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2138 [17:04:57] <brokencycle> k. found it.
2139 [17:05:02] <brokencycle> :(
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2155 [17:12:11] <no_gravity> Is there a way to manually trigger the screensave etc? I mean tell the laptop "Hey, I'm done working for a while, you can rest now"?
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2161 [17:14:08] <rant> no_gravity: yes
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2163 [17:15:23] <rant> no_gravity: how thats done depends on what screensaver/lock facility you want to trigger.. xset s blank or such commands do the most basic blanking or dpms off functions
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2165 [17:15:45] <no_gravity> mawk: I only want to tell the laptop that it can idle for a bit.
2166 [17:15:46] <jhutchins_wk> no_gravity: It depends on what desktop you run. Some have a feature to activate it if you mouse off in a certain corner (never worked for me), some have a shortcut to Lock the screen which usually activates the screensaver.
2167 [17:15:51] <no_gravity> Optimally via a key-combo.
2168 [17:15:59] <rant> no_gravity: if you use lightdm and light-locker they have their own commands
2169 [17:16:08] <no_gravity> jhutchins_wk: I use Mate.
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2172 [17:16:14] <mawk> yes I get that but if you really want idling for power reasons then just sleep
2173 [17:16:23] <mawk> anything else keeps the cpu awake
2174 [17:16:26] <mawk> there's no idling
2175 [17:16:27] <no_gravity> "sleep"?
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2177 [17:16:36] <rant> no_gravity: its a low power cpu state
2178 [17:16:41] <rant> !sleep
2179 [17:16:41] <dpkg> somebody said sleep was for wimpy organic beings. Or, sleep is probably a poor substitute for coffee or for mortals or for the weak or the glory of the cowards and the un-caffeinateds. :-) or the activity of choice for the intelligent person or time which could be spent hacking the planet.. or .. whatever .. ZZzzzz ... fsck: warning: /dev/brain has gone countless hours without being checked. Check forced. zZZzzzz... *zonk*
2180 [17:16:45] <mawk> yes, it's called sleep in most OSs
2181 [17:16:46] <rant> heh
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2183 [17:16:54] <rant> that was useless
2184 [17:16:58] <mawk> lol
2185 [17:17:07] <rant> but there are pm commands for that
2186 [17:17:14] <greycat> not to be confused with sleep(1) I presume
2187 [17:17:21] <mawk> yeah
2188 [17:17:48] <mawk> well in a single process OS with realtime priority and single core proc sleep() will really halt the processor
2189 [17:17:54] <mawk> but you don't do that often
2190 [17:17:57] <no_gravity> What is "sleep"?
2191 [17:18:03] <rant> like sudo pm-suspend
2192 [17:18:03] <mawk> rant said it
2193 [17:18:07] <mawk> it's a low power state
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2195 [17:18:20] <mawk> like shutdown but the computer can resume immediately
2196 [17:18:25] <mawk> with all your windows still open
2197 [17:18:26] <rant> no_gravity: its literally a execution state of the cpu.. puts most all hardware to sleep mostly just keeps the ram powered
2198 [17:18:32] <no_gravity> I would think the laptop does that when it's idle for a while.
2199 [17:18:33] <johnjay> mawk: it's !Jeb! but for your computer
2200 [17:18:48] <rant> no_gravity: where a hibernate copies cpu and ram state to disk and powers off completely
2201 [17:18:54] <mawk> I don't get it johnjay :(
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2204 [17:20:03] <rant> during a hibernate, upon next boot, which will start out like any boot, bios->bootloader->kernel the kernel will find the state file in swap and load it and resume where it left off, during hibernate no power is used
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2206 [17:20:28] <mawk> we call that extended sleep in french
2207 [17:20:33] <mawk> veille prolongée
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2210 [17:21:30] <rant> sleep/suspend on the other hand is more an energy star compliance mode where power consumption is reduced to like 90+ percent off, disks are parked, radios are off, displays are in dpms sleep, mostly just ram is still powered because the state is stored in ram rather than written to disk
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2212 [17:22:19] <mawk> funny thing is that at boot the BIOS configures hard drives so that you don't have access to advanced features like extended secure erase
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2214 [17:22:26] <rant> you can also simulate such yourself using rfkill for radios, hdparm -Y for disks, and xset dpms commands for displays
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2216 [17:22:45] <mawk> but since sleep powers down drive you can sleep and wake and the drive is reconfigured, and you can do the advanced stuff
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2222 [17:23:28] <rant> but man pm-suspend and related pages explain all this
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2225 [17:23:46] <mawk> it's a processor power state also rant I think
2226 [17:23:52] <mawk> lowered voltage maybe
2227 [17:24:03] <rant> yes it is
2228 [17:24:54] <rant> c-states S1-S4 are "waking states" and S5 is shutdown
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2231 [17:25:58] <rant> replaced-url
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2243 [17:30:11] <rant> more detailed explaination replaced-url
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2261 [17:37:26] <no_gravity> Hmm.. I think I will just do nothing and let the laptop figure out on its own, that it is idle.
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2266 [17:38:57] <juko> hi all
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2270 [17:41:44] <annadane> hi juko
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2272 [17:42:50] <dob1> are UUID in fstab real uniques for every pc ?
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2274 [17:43:05] <rant> no
2275 [17:43:12] <dob1> I mean can I put an hdd on another pc, just copy the fstab line from the old pc and mount it again?
2276 [17:43:19] <dob1> ah..
2277 [17:43:22] <rant> yes
2278 [17:43:33] <dob1> yes or no?
2279 [17:43:33] <rant> they are unique to each filesystem
2280 [17:43:34] <jelly> dob1: they're generated with that intent, and it's VERY unlikely you'll find a duplicate
2281 [17:43:46] <rant> dob1: you asked two different questions :P
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2283 [17:43:52] <dob1> so I just need to change the mountpoint and I am ok?
2284 [17:44:00] <rant> the answer to the first is no, the answer to the 2nd is yes
2285 [17:44:21] <dob1> rant, the first one was a bad question :)
2286 [17:44:40] <dob1> because I am trying to move a /home partition
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2288 [17:44:55] <rant> dob1: try the commands lsblk to see then things like blkid /dev/sda1
2289 [17:45:09] <rant> dob1: you can also label them to make it easier than using UUID
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2292 [17:45:12] <dob1> I will overmount it on my new home and then I hope to fix uid gid
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2295 [17:45:30] <rant> tune2fs -L myhome /dev/sda5
2296 [17:45:45] <rant> then just use LABEL=myhome /home ext4 defaults 0 1
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2298 [17:47:15] <dob1> I would like to copy the line from the old pc
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2300 [17:47:21] <dob1> into the new fstab
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2302 [17:47:32] <dob1> comment out the actual home, and I am done (I hope)
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2304 [17:48:03] <rant> as long as the filesystem is the same, the uuid will be the same..
2305 [17:48:28] <rant> but labels are much easier to work with and can be added after the fact with that tune2fs command
2306 [17:48:54] <dob1> how does the label know the partition?
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2308 [17:49:22] <rant> the label and uuid are part of the filesystem
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2310 [17:49:31] <dob1> hmm
2311 [17:49:36] <rant> the system probes all disks/partitions looking for them
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2315 [17:50:52] <rant> technically the partitions have uuid too but its the FS uuid used in things like fstab
2316 [17:51:06] <dob1> rant, now wait you put in fstab LABEL=myhome /home ext4 defaults 0 1
2317 [17:51:16] <dob1> this is correct?
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2319 [17:51:37] <dob1> who know myhome is /dev/something?
2320 [17:51:50] <dob1> I miss this part :)
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2322 [17:52:03] <rant> dob1: assuming you've tune2fs -L myhome /dev/something on an ext4 partition that has what you want to be /home
2323 [17:52:09] <dob1> ah
2324 [17:52:20] <rant> you have to set the label on the filesystem with tune2fs
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2326 [17:52:48] <rant> as I said before see also the lsblk and blkid commands
2327 [17:52:49] <dob1> you are "marking" the filesystem?
2328 [17:53:00] <rant> yes..
2329 [17:53:19] <dob1> if there are more partition with the same label?
2330 [17:53:21] <rant> this is what tune2fs does, it sets various options of an ext2/3/4 filesystem
2331 [17:53:31] <rant> then you have a problem.. heh.
2332 [17:53:57] <rant> it'll be no more effective than old dev names.. it'll be a first come first serve in the probe
2333 [17:54:11] <dob1> I can run this command tune2fs on the old pc, get the hdd on the new pc
2334 [17:54:13] <rant> but since the labels are user defined by the admin..
2335 [17:54:19] <dob1> and mount it with the label in fstab?
2336 [17:54:26] <rant> thats the idea
2337 [17:54:39] <rant> labels are more user-friendly than UUID which are long and hard to recognize/remember
2338 [17:54:52] <rant> you can give your fs labels you recognize
2339 [17:54:56] <dob1> and If I want to view/remove it?
2340 [17:55:13] <rant> do I have to say lsblk and blkid again?
2341 [17:55:22] <rant> or tune2fs -L
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2343 [17:55:34] <dob1> tune2fs is just to assign a label?
2344 [17:55:52] <rant> 11:53 rant> this is what tune2fs does, it sets various options of an ext2/3/4 filesystem
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2346 [17:56:09] <rant> it sets all sorts of things, the reserve, etc
2347 [17:56:29] <rant> all the settings it manipulates always exist.. they are part of the filesystem
2348 [17:56:36] <rant> all partitions have labels.. they are just blank
2349 [17:56:46] <rant> just like they all have uuid
2350 [17:57:03] <rant> and setting a label doesnt remove the uuid
2351 [17:57:16] <dob1> ok stupid question, I have 2 partition with label foobar, and in fstab I mount one by label and the other one by uuid, this is ok I suppose
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2355 [17:58:08] <rant> any given fs could be identified by its device name(s) /dev/sda1 /dev/disk-by-uuid/abcd-1234-defg-5678 or its LABEL=mylabel or UUID=abcd-1234-defg-5678
2356 [17:58:42] <rant> no.. if you give two partition the same label its same as relying on old /dev/sda1 kinda names
2357 [17:58:50] <rant> its whatever one the kernel sees first in a probe
2358 [17:59:05] <rant> this is why we invented UUID and LABLES to avoid this
2359 [17:59:19] <rant> you're suppose to be smart enough to not user define two fs with the same label
2360 [17:59:40] <rant> unlike the UUID, labels are user defined.. UUID are auto-generated
2361 [17:59:43] <dob1> rant, but I said that I mount one by label and one by uuid, this still can cause problems?
2362 [17:59:59] <rant> yes because its PROBING to find them
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2364 [18:00:15] <rant> if it probes the one you called by uuid first, it already knows its labelled foobar
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2366 [18:00:25] <rant> so when you say foobar, it'll say.. oh .. here is foobar
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2368 [18:00:32] <rant> wont bother looking any further
2369 [18:00:43] *** Parts: stoel (~stoel@replaced-ip ) ()
2370 [18:00:45] <rant> things are always in the last place you look :P
2371 [18:00:57] <rant> unless you're just crazy.. then you keep looking for em after you found em
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2373 [18:01:37] <dob1> ok but the first entry is by uuid so I mount it, why I have to check which label this fs has?
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2376 [18:02:05] <rant> idk.. what difference does it make.. just don't do it :P
2377 [18:02:05] <dob1> so it continue it founds the one by label (that it's a different partition) and it mount it
2378 [18:02:27] <rant> the whole point is UUID was created to avoid the probing issues..
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2380 [18:02:43] <dob1> I like the label idea but for sure I will make confusion
2381 [18:03:03] <rant> now /dev/sda1 might be your first sata disk with your rootfs.. if you put in a thumbdrive sda1 may be that thumb drive
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2384 [18:03:27] <rant> but uuid will always be unique
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2386 [18:03:45] <rant> however this had a flaw.. they're long and difficult to recognize and type for people
2387 [18:03:52] <jelly> unless you clone the whole disks / partitions
2388 [18:03:53] <rant> so they also made the label..
2389 [18:04:15] <dob1> rant, sorry rant but maybe I miss a point. I have my partition with label myhome. on another pc I have another hdd with a partion named myhome too
2390 [18:04:17] <rant> yes which is why I've stressed the uuid that matters in these cases is PART OF THE FS :P
2391 [18:04:34] <dob1> I get the hdd from the other pc and brint it to the first one. can I mount this partition on the first pc?
2392 [18:04:40] <dob1> *bring
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2394 [18:04:54] <jelly> you can mount anything anywhere regardless of uuid or label
2395 [18:05:00] <jelly> just be careful :-)
2396 [18:05:14] <rant> dob1: if you take out the other hdd that is called the same thing, then yeah..
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2398 [18:05:22] <jelly> to mount the right thing. uuid helps figure out the right thing.
2399 [18:05:25] <rant> if you dont, who knows which one it'll mount
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2403 [18:06:11] <greycat> udev^H^H^H^H the shadow knows!
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2406 [18:06:34] <dob1> ok but when I asked: I have 2 partitions with label foobar. in fstab I mount the first one by label and the second one by uuid. you said this can't work
2407 [18:06:46] <greycat> You MUST NOT have two partitions with the same label.
2408 [18:06:49] <greycat> Stop doing that.
2409 [18:07:00] <dob1> greycat, In different hdd
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2411 [18:07:35] <rant> what part of the whole reason for UUID and Labels is because the system probes down the bus do you not understand?
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2414 [18:08:05] <greycat> Putting the same label on two file systems that can both be attached at the same time would be a DISASTER.
2415 [18:08:06] <jelly> dob1: if there is more than one filesystem with same LABEL= you can't know which one will get mounted based on label.
2416 [18:08:17] <rant> in legacy times before this, it probed down the IDE bus said ok.. I found a drive.. I'll call this hda, wow, heres another I'll call this hdb..
2417 [18:08:23] <dob1> infact I said in fast one by label , one by uuid
2418 [18:08:28] <dob1> *fstab
2419 [18:08:36] <greycat> Stop doing silly things.
2420 [18:08:37] <rant> this was a problem because the bus and how its probed isnt reliable.. wont always be the same
2421 [18:08:58] <jelly> dob1: it does not matter, you might still get any of the two mounted with LABEL=
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2423 [18:09:34] <jelly> if they have same labels, and you want to mount them automatically, then the safe way if not to use labels to determine mounts at all
2424 [18:09:37] <dob1> I think I am no explaining it in the correct way. no problem thanks anyway
2425 [18:09:42] <rant> dob1: the disk will always have a device, a uuid, and a label
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2427 [18:10:00] <dob1> it's my bad english, sorry guys
2428 [18:10:05] <rant> dob1: it doesnt matter which ones you use in fstab.. the system is still going to probe the bus at boot
2429 [18:10:25] <jelly> dob1: change the fstab to use UUID instead of the clashing label _before_ plugging in the old disk.
2430 [18:10:30] <rant> and its going to show exactly what you see if you type lsblk and blkid like I said 3 times before
2431 [18:11:21] <dob1> ok I think I got it at the end :)
2432 [18:12:27] <dob1> you have a lot of patience :)
2433 [18:12:52] <jelly> patience is a useful trait when doing support
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2435 [18:13:30] <EdePopede> create the mountpoints, throw them into fstab together with the UUIDs and then forget about those.
2436 [18:13:35] <rant> there was a time when I wasn't sure.. but you set my mind at ease.. there is no doubt your in my heart now
2437 [18:13:41] <rant> :P
2438 [18:13:49] * rant whistles
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2440 [18:14:11] <dob1> doing my partitioning I forget to create a /boot partition. years ago it was suggested to create one. It doesn't matter nowadays?
2441 [18:14:40] <annadane> for efi i think you need one/
2442 [18:14:42] <annadane> ?
2443 [18:14:47] <dob1> I am not on efi
2444 [18:14:53] <rant> you need a ESP partition for efi
2445 [18:15:03] <rant> its so advanced it took us back
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2447 [18:15:12] <rant> like gnome3 did
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2449 [18:15:22] <dob1> It was years ago, people told me to create it ext2 for journaling problems or whatever
2450 [18:15:28] <jelly> it's useful if you want to have LVM and/or encryption on the same disk
2451 [18:15:33] <dob1> but I think it's not used anymore
2452 [18:15:44] <rant> yes I have a /boot because my / is on an encrypted lvm
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2456 [18:16:30] <dob1> ok I forget /boot, I don't want to reinstall...
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2458 [18:16:39] <jelly> grub2 can deal with /boot on ext4 (and more complex setups) now, but if you want to be able to keep using grub-legacy you can still have ext2 or ext3 on the separate /boot
2459 [18:16:41] <greycat> if your system boots, don't mess with it
2460 [18:17:02] <dob1> it was at lilo years
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2462 [18:17:09] <jelly> it's probably easier to do recovery with a live usb now, instead of grub prompt.
2463 [18:17:37] <rant> I never did understand grub's prompt :P and I liked lilo's simplistic config
2464 [18:18:02] <jelly> grub-legacy had a quite useful console
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2466 [18:18:33] <jelly> grub2 is an overengineered PoS...oftware
2467 [18:19:49] <EdePopede> btw, i've seen recently that on the live disc legacy and uefi use different boot screens?
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2470 [18:21:59] <jhutchins_wk1> EdePopede: I would expect that what you're seeing is coming from the hardware.
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2474 [18:23:54] <jelly> I don't even know what defualt debian live looks like, always use grml.org instead
2475 [18:24:03] <jhutchins_wk1> EdePopede: (By hardware I mean whatever is pre-bootloader.
2476 [18:24:30] <EdePopede> jhutchins_wk1: hardware? erm. i looked through the PC's usb boot options for the very first time it seems. one entry with 2 children for legacy and uefi boot. and the uefi version being different and the only one allowing me to change the boot parameters (unless it isn't 'c' in the legacy version)
2477 [18:26:11] * Old_Dog is logging off to spend some time trying to get a little work done. have a nice day everyone.
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2488 [18:31:32] <GNU\colossus> grml is amazing
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2494 [18:35:54] <jelly> it's almost perfect, expect zsh uses vi keybindings instead of emacs
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2509 [18:40:28] <echoSMILE> is this entry correct at "crontab -e" "0 * * * * /bin/command" ?
2510 [18:40:59] <greycat> it is syntactically valid
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2512 [18:41:07] <greycat> whether it does what you want depends on what you think it does
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2517 [18:42:23] <annadane> replaced-url
2518 [18:42:32] <annadane> has a nice visual representation
2519 [18:42:34] <greycat> "man 5 crontab"
2520 [18:42:39] <annadane> (aka i'm too lazy to read man ages)
2521 [18:42:41] <annadane> pages
2522 [18:42:43] <greycat> has a nice textual representation
2523 [18:42:50] <echoSMILE> weird, the command is not executed at that minute
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2526 [18:43:07] <greycat> how do you know?
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2554 [18:53:17] <annadane> you have your hypothetical command running every hour at 0 minutes
2555 [18:53:25] <echoSMILE> greycat hum. Ok, I have a small bash script that creates a file and works from cron. but other bash script doesn't
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2557 [18:53:30] <annadane> and you sent your message a 12:42 my time
2558 [18:53:32] <annadane> at*
2559 [18:53:59] <greycat> echoSMILE: check the logs first to see if it ran, if there were errors, etc. Check the owner's email to see if any output/stderr was mailed.
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2561 [18:54:52] <echoSMILE> greycat in which log file is that logged?
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2563 [18:55:27] <greycat> grep CRON /var/log/syslog is one of the places
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2566 [18:56:52] <echoSMILE> (CRON) info (No MTA installed, discarding output)
2567 [18:57:29] <greycat> I do not agree with the decision to remove the dependency on a mail-transport-agent to have cron installed, but I didn't get a vote.
2568 [18:58:00] <echoSMILE> but the command is executed anyway right?
2569 [18:58:07] <greycat> How can you tell?
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2576 [19:00:20] <greycat> If you can't or won't install an MTA, I would recommend adding redirections on each command to send output/stderr to a log file.
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2582 [19:03:30] <echoSMILE> greycat and "...command > /dev/null" ?
2583 [19:03:39] <greycat> that's the exact opposite of what you want
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2585 [19:03:56] <greycat> you want to SEE the output and errors so you can figure out why it didn't "work"
2586 [19:04:16] <echoSMILE> oh. you mean to debug. sure
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2588 [19:05:14] <greycat> In the long term, you should install an MTA, and make sure the job only writes output/stderr that you want to see.
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2591 [19:05:49] <tachikomas> any great command line email client that support imap ?
2592 [19:06:01] <greycat> if you mean terminal, mutt
2593 [19:06:16] <greycat> if you literally mean command line I don't *know* of any except mh and I've never used mh
2594 [19:06:26] <tachikomas> i do, i will take a look into mutt then
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2596 [19:07:27] <tachikomas> thanks
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2598 [19:10:13] <echoSMILE> greycat well, the bash script is executed because he create a file, no output generated, and commands inside that bash script wasn't executed (some iptables rules)
2599 [19:10:17] <karlpinc> I _think_ one of those mailx or mail or bsd-mail packages will do command line email reading, but mutt is better. I think. You can always just use less on the file where the mail goes, or some editor, if all you want is to read.
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2601 [19:11:07] * karlpinc remembers that emacs has a mail mode
2602 [19:11:08] <greycat> s-nail has IMAP in its man page, if that helps
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2604 [19:12:21] <jhutchins_wk> (al)pine
2605 [19:12:42] <karlpinc> I did use emacs for a while as my mail client. The only problem was "office document" attachments, so I eventually used something GUI.
2606 [19:12:44] <phazon> emacs has an everything-mode :-)
2607 [19:13:08] <jhutchins_wk> emacs space shuttle launch command mode.
2608 [19:13:20] <karlpinc> jhutchins_wk: Right. Didn't pine itself eventually lose support, or something? So now there's a replacment? (alpine?)
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2611 [19:13:37] <jhutchins_wk> karlpinc: I think it's a license issue.
2612 [19:13:41] <greycat> pine is non-free
2613 [19:13:47] <karlpinc> Right, that is what it was.
2614 [19:13:54] <greycat> the editor from pine, pico, was cloned as nano
2615 [19:14:03] <jhutchins_wk> I never did figure out mutt's configuration.
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2617 [19:14:07] <galaxie> jhutchins_wk: We should inform Elon Musk the proper way to launch space ships :P
2618 [19:14:17] <greycat> mutt has a LOT of configuration options; I only know a tiny subset
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2620 [19:14:50] <galaxie> I only use the ones that were immediately useful to me, same thing as Emacs and every other big software package for that matter.
2621 [19:14:51] * karlpinc is using emacs for irc right now
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2626 [19:17:49] <annadane> still trying to decide if i should just use 25 wich stretch or compile 26
2627 [19:17:54] <annadane> with stretch*
2628 [19:17:55] <maxxe> hi
2629 [19:18:02] <annadane> hi
2630 [19:18:05] <maxxe> :)
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2651 [19:26:12] <morf> hello friends
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2654 [19:26:58] <morf> stupid question if you know the answer pls... how much is debian unstable rolling compared to arch pls? (no trolling) ... is it like real rolling or more like trying to keep stable versions for more stable versions?
2655 [19:27:13] <greycat> !rolling
2656 [19:27:13] <dpkg> Testing is not a rolling release in the strict sense of the word. It is a test platform, currently codenamed <buster>. It is part of the Debian development process and is gradually being built into the next <stable>. Please go to #debian-next on irc.debian.org for support. See <moving target>.
2657 [19:27:52] <morf> so yeah... thanks greycat :) still inventory of #debian? :))
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2659 [19:27:57] <morf> nice to see you ;)
2660 [19:28:53] <morf> also ... any "lucky" debian user @ gemini pda? any experience?
2661 [19:29:02] <indomitable> gemini pda?
2662 [19:29:28] <morf> replaced-url
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2664 [19:29:40] <morf> this thing ... it has "official" debian version
2665 [19:29:42] <indomitable> that looks expensive as shit
2666 [19:29:42] <indomitable> lol
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2668 [19:29:47] <morf> yeah :(
2669 [19:29:56] <morf> but it's nice toy (for me) ...
2670 [19:30:05] <morf> hate mobile phones, want "pocket computer"
2671 [19:30:34] <indomitable> I would definitely buy that if I had spare cash floating around and free time to mess with it
2672 [19:30:42] <indomitable> but that's like 5 fully kitted raspberry pis
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2674 [19:31:01] <indomitable> that reminds me I should order some IR cameras
2675 [19:31:58] <morf> hm yeah sure ... that's what i think
2676 [19:32:12] <morf> but too much work, too little time... didn't even flash it yet
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2731 [20:06:38] <echoSMILE> greycat at bash script, the command need the complete path -_-'
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2739 [20:08:27] <greycat> the PATH provided to cron jobs is just /usr/bin:/bin according to crontab(5)
2740 [20:09:04] <greycat> if your script relies on commands outside of those directories, you'll have to act accordingly, often by setting PATH to something longer inside the script
2741 [20:09:57] <morf> have fun
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2743 [20:10:11] <echoSMILE> I need for sure a intensive shell scripting course
2744 [20:10:14] <echoSMILE> ty
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2783 [20:31:01] <lisbeths> How can I find the email of the developer of this package: replaced-url
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2785 [20:31:39] <greycat> lisbeths: apt-cache show expect | grep ^Maintainer
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2791 [20:35:38] <DarreDevyll> anyone by chance know how to get brave on parrot os? I have no idea what I'm doing here
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2793 [20:36:08] <dax> !parrot
2794 [20:36:08] <dpkg> Parrot OS (replaced-url
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2798 [20:37:18] <DarreDevyll> thanks for the help. I'll check there
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2809 [20:41:51] <jhutchins_wk1> Full paths are almost always a good idea.
2810 [20:42:01] <Kobaz> having a really weird issue.... every so often when waking up my monitors, DisplayPort-0 is blank
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2815 [20:43:51] <greycat> jhutchins_wk1: Disagree. For standard commands, a full path should NOT be given, because those move around from system to system. It's better to set the PATH variable to include all the places they may live.
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2817 [20:44:11] <Kobaz> i then do: xrandr --output DisplayPort-0 --mode 1680x1050; sleep 1; xrandr --output DisplayPort-0 --mode 1920x1080
2818 [20:44:15] <Kobaz> and then my monitor is back online
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2833 [20:52:58] <indomitable> what is xrandr
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2909 [21:39:15] <Guest65> lively ... eh?
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2913 [21:44:44] <Guest65> anyone know how to do the SASL thing?
2914 [21:45:20] <greycat> if you're talking about some Freenode auth thing, better to ask #freenode
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2918 [21:46:07] <qqz> I have an eeepc 4g with Debian 9 testing but the battery monitor of matchbox fails to display the battery state
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2920 [21:46:18] <qqz> installing upower alone has not resolved the problem
2921 [21:46:25] <qqz> is there anything else missing?
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2926 [21:48:06] <humpled> is it shown in /sys/class/power_supply/BAT0 or similar?
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2929 [21:51:22] <qqz> yews /sys/class/power_supply/BAT0/status says full
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2931 [21:52:00] <qqz> and besides this another question: I have no shutdown or logout button in matchbox; how can I add one?
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2933 [21:52:53] <humpled> what panel is it? wouldn't you rather just use the power button?
2934 [21:53:26] <qqz> I haven´t tried this; normally there is a software shutdown option for gracfeul shutdown
2935 [21:53:38] <humpled> sure,
2936 [21:53:44] <qqz> it should shutdown via the window manager not via init 0
2937 [21:53:52] <humpled> and i always link the hardware button to it because i'm lazy
2938 [21:54:55] <hypn0> is matchbox lighter than openbox?
2939 [21:55:26] <qqz> no but it is said to have a more feature rich application menu
2940 [21:55:40] <qqz> does openbox also have an application menu; perhaps I should try it
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2942 [21:56:44] <hypn0> you can add one I guess, but normally you have to add manually, there is a gui
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2949 [21:59:40] <qqz> hypn0: what is the console command to shut down gracefully via the window manager?
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2951 [22:01:16] <Guest65> ? as root? shutdown [how] -r [reboot] -h [hard] when like NOW
2952 [22:01:45] <qqz> I believe that does not go via the window manager
2953 [22:01:47] <humpled> you could try ls /usr/bin | grep -i "matchbox" to see if there are some relevant commands there
2954 [22:01:50] <qqz> it should be possible as user
2955 [22:01:57] <hypn0> shutdown now
2956 [22:02:16] <humpled> not many people have used matchbox qqz
2957 [22:02:21] <hypn0> is there a panel?
2958 [22:02:40] <hypn0> or do you have to install one?
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2960 [22:03:05] <qqz> it should be the same for any desktop environment
2961 [22:03:19] <qqz> I remember there was something like kcmctl logout 0 0
2962 [22:03:28] <hypn0> there is halt, poweroff too
2963 [22:03:36] <qqz> but there should be a generic wmctl utility to do that
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2968 [22:04:21] <Guest65> kicker ?
2969 [22:04:41] <hypn0> in opennbox we use tint2 panel
2970 [22:05:10] <hypn0> you can use others
2971 [22:05:17] <qqz> I have tint
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2973 [22:06:26] <Scorpion2185> Hi
2974 [22:06:27] <hypn0> do you have to add applets or something
2975 [22:06:32] <qqz> ahh systemctl
2976 [22:06:48] <Scorpion2185> Can i install nvidia driver from sid? i am on debian 9 stable
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2979 [22:09:05] <qqz> but my other question was how to make the battery display work
2980 [22:09:12] <qqz> installing upower is not sufficient
2981 [22:09:27] <Guest65> qqz app gkrellm
2982 [22:10:09] <qqz> and can I use the matchbox plugin as well?
2983 [22:10:19] <qqz> I guess it misses some support infrastructure
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2985 [22:10:27] <Guest65> i dont know matchbox
2986 [22:10:47] <Scorpion2185> Can i install nvidia driver from sid? i am on debian 9 stable
2987 [22:10:58] <Guest65> 2185 why?
2988 [22:11:30] <Scorpion2185> dxvk
2989 [22:11:35] <Scorpion2185> needs 418 at lest
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2991 [22:12:18] <Scorpion2185> direct x to vulkan
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2993 [22:13:47] <greycat> ,v xserver-xorg-video-nvidia
2994 [22:13:48] <judd> Package: xserver-xorg-video-nvidia on amd64 -- jessie/non-free: 340.106-1; stretch/non-free: 390.87-8~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates/non-free: 390.116-1; buster/non-free: 410.104-3; sid/non-free: 418.56-2
2995 [22:14:07] <greycat> ,checkbackport xserver-xorg-video-nvidia
2996 [22:14:08] <judd> Backporting package xserver-xorg-video-nvidia in sid→stretch/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper-compat (= 12).
2997 [22:14:22] <Scorpion2185> Can I install it form sid?
2998 [22:14:23] <greycat> Questionable. I'm not smart enough for it.
2999 [22:14:25] <greycat> No.
3000 [22:14:44] <greycat> You definitely cannot install the sid package. The question is whether you can install a BACKPORT of the package, and that I do not know.
3001 [22:15:22] <greycat> I'll also point out in passing that the version you covet won't even be in buster.
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3004 [22:16:10] <greycat> ,checkbackport xserver-xorg-video-nvidia --torelease buster
3005 [22:16:12] <judd> Backporting package xserver-xorg-video-nvidia in sid→buster/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper-compat (= 12).
3006 [22:16:16] <greycat> O_o
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3008 [22:16:22] <greycat> dayum
3009 [22:16:47] <qqz> which gkrellm plugin will I need?
3010 [22:17:01] <Scorpion2185> I checked that packcage is only in sid not evene in buster
3011 [22:17:14] <Scorpion2185> can someone backported it?
3012 [22:17:16] <qqz> I think the one it offers is thinkpad specific
3013 [22:17:19] <greycat> Again, the thing I was checking was whether it is POSSIBLE to BACKPORT the thing from sid to buster.
3014 [22:17:19] <Guest65> gkrellm plugins are in the app
3015 [22:17:37] <uberwag> hi, if i want to get e-mail notifications from my little debian vps (mainly for unattended auto updates), i install bsd-mailx package? does this need any further configuration? is this the easiest solution? i have no experience with this
3016 [22:17:48] <greycat> And the bot's answer is "Not easily, at least."
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3018 [22:18:12] <greycat> uberwag: you need a mail transport agent (MTA)
3019 [22:18:31] <greycat> mailx just injects messages into the MTA's queue for processing
3020 [22:18:48] <Guest65> sendmail works
3021 [22:19:00] <jhutchins_wk1> Is exim still the default MTA?
3022 [22:19:03] <greycat> exim4, postfix, sendmail, many other choices
3023 [22:19:07] <greycat> yes, jhutchins_wk1
3024 [22:19:42] <uberwag> greycat: ok and what MTA is easiest to use you think?
3025 [22:19:55] <greycat> whichever one you already know
3026 [22:20:00] <uberwag> i read postfix configuration is not easy?
3027 [22:20:08] <uberwag> greycat: i have no experience
3028 [22:20:15] <Scorpion2185> What happen if i download and install from sid the 418 drivers?
3029 [22:20:22] <greycat> !don't break debian
3030 [22:20:22] <dpkg> methinks dont break debian is replaced-url
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3032 [22:21:04] <greycat> the short answer is you won't be ABLE to install them without bringing in many, many more dependencies from sid
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3034 [22:21:11] <jmcnaught> uberwag: you just need a null mailer, take a look at msmtp-mta, it's pretty easy. "aptitude search ~Pmail-transport-agent" to see the available options
3035 [22:21:29] <greycat> A null mailer only works if you have a smarthost you can route all your outgoing mail through.
3036 [22:21:41] <Scorpion2185> ok so I must upgrade to sid to buster is not enough?
3037 [22:22:00] <uberwag> graycat, jmcnaught: i just want notifications to end up in my gmail really
3038 [22:22:01] <greycat> Scorpion2185: *I* personally do not know. You need someone with direct experience backporting nvidia drivers.
3039 [22:22:25] <greycat> uberwag: well, exim4 is the default, so try that and see how it goes.
3040 [22:23:01] <Scorpion2185> uhm ok thanks, I will ask on the debian forum
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3042 [22:23:38] <uberwag> greycat: ok will give that a shot
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3047 [22:25:07] <uberwag> is having such an MTA on your server creating any security risks for the server?
3048 [22:25:19] <jhutchins_wk1> Actually, debconf makes exim4 pretty easy.
3049 [22:25:35] <greycat> if you configure it ONLY for outgoing, and do not listen for incoming, then it's hard to see how it could be a security issue
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3051 [22:25:51] <jhutchins_wk1> (Then again, I hand-wrote my own sendmail.cfg, so I may not be a good judge.)
3052 [22:26:05] <uberwag> greycat: true, so i must make sure it's only for sending out, ok
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3054 [22:26:54] <greycat> that's what you said you wanted
3055 [22:27:07] <greycat> it's not even clear whether you HAVE a domain name
3056 [22:27:17] <greycat> and without a domain name, you will not be receiving mail
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3058 [22:27:28] <uberwag> greycat: yes that is what i wanted, only for sending notifications from the server to my gmail
3059 [22:27:38] <uberwag> i was just confirming it really
3060 [22:27:42] <Guest65> no FQDN you aint getting mail [ i dont think ]
3061 [22:28:07] <jhutchins_wk1> uberwag: You might have some trouble getting gmail to accept mail from a non-registered non-commercial source.
3062 [22:28:34] <greycat> we'd need more detail
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3064 [22:30:21] <Guest65> spf davm mail checkers they look
3065 [22:30:26] <uberwag> well i installed unattended-upgrades on the vps, but in case this goes wrong, it can send notifications to an e-mail address
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3068 [22:30:47] <uberwag> i would like to use my gmail for that, so i can always see these notifications
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3072 [22:32:21] <uberwag> replaced-url
3073 [22:32:25] <uberwag> like that
3074 [22:32:44] <JerryS> I hope someone can help me here. I'm trying to install debian-9.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso on a USB stick under VirtualBox (Windows). I get to the point where it is installing the base system and have a failure trying to install the busybox package.
3075 [22:32:56] <Guest65> ya could do a cron
3076 [22:32:57] <uberwag> so in this tutorial it just says i need to install bsd-mailx but nothing else really
3077 [22:33:04] <JerryS> I've seen some old hits on this, but nothing relatively recent with a fix. Has anyone seen this?
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3081 [22:34:01] <uberwag> Guest65: yes but i think the package already use a cron to send those notifications out
3082 [22:34:06] <greycat> ,depends bsd-mailx
3083 [22:34:07] <judd> Package bsd-mailx in stretch/amd64 -- depends: base-files (>= 2.2.0), default-mta | mail-transport-agent, libbsd0 (>= 0.2.0), libc6 (>= 2.17), liblockfile1 (>= 1.0).
3084 [22:34:28] <JohnA> Any advise on a "good" simple backup system for a family server. I have just put it server back on its feet, after discovering that the back system/program I had been using did not work. Suggestions?
3085 [22:34:36] *** Quits: zleap (~zleap@replaced-ip ) (Quit: WeeChat 2.4)
3086 [22:34:36] <greycat> Installing bsd-mailx will also install an MTA due to the dependencies, unless your VPS already *has* one.
3087 [22:34:50] <uberwag> greycat: ah ok
3088 [22:34:57] <uberwag> but then i need to configure that right?
3089 [22:35:00] <digdilem> JohnA, backup-manager is simple and works well. backuppc is good for multiple machines
3090 [22:35:05] <greycat> uberwag: probably.
3091 [22:35:15] <uberwag> it won't just be able to send to my gmail without config i guess
3092 [22:35:21] <uberwag> i can test I guess
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3098 [22:38:47] <jhutchins_wk1> uberwag: I think those instructions are probably intended to send mail to a local user, not a remote account.
3099 [22:39:09] <greycat> outgoing mail's not really complex
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3102 [22:39:55] <greycat> what really matters is whether the recipient will be willing to accept mail from you, and that's usually a matter of your DNS being configured correctly, which basically boils down to "my domain name -- did I set it up correctly"
3103 [22:40:06] <greycat> which in turn boils down to "I have a domain name"
3104 [22:40:13] <Guest65> sendmail mailx can send to a remote account
3105 [22:40:26] <greycat> if you don't have a domain name, then it's questionable what you are even doing on a VPS
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3110 [22:42:41] <uberwag> guest65: ok, will also have a look at sendmail
3111 [22:42:50] *** Quits: Scorpion2185 (~quassel@replaced-ip##) (Quit: ##replaced-url
3112 [22:42:54] <greycat> I don't recommend sendmail as a first MTA
3113 [22:43:31] <greycat> on a difficulty scale from 1 to 10, sendmail's a 13
3114 [22:43:40] <uberwag> well i can also check the logs regularly, but i rather have e-mail notifications
3115 [22:44:07] <Guest65> i dont recall doing anything to send mail
3116 [22:44:49] <greycat> if you have a domain name and your server is configured as a host within that domain and DNS is all set up forward/backward, then the defaults probably Just Worked
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3120 [22:45:26] <Guest65> i do get mail rejected for not having a FQDN
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3122 [22:45:34] <greycat> I've dropped strong hints like half a dozen times now and not once has uberwag stepped forward to say "Oh, I have a domain name, it's ___ and my server is ____"
3123 [22:45:49] <uberwag> greycat: i dont have domain name
3124 [22:46:05] <greycat> then how do you contact your VPS
3125 [22:46:06] <jhutchins_wk1> blackvpn from the ukrane, he's not likely to give much detail.
3126 [22:46:24] <Guest65> dude it should be *you*.VPS.com
3127 [22:46:32] <greycat> type the IP address in by hand every time?
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3131 [22:47:35] <uberwag> greycat: i mean, the server maybe have a default domain from the hosting
3132 [22:47:39] <uberwag> but i have not purchased a domain
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3137 [22:49:07] <uberwag> Guest65: yes it will probably be some domain like that, like 14-131-21-1.vps.com
3138 [22:49:34] <greycat> Well, you need to put some name on your email saying who it's from.
3139 [22:49:49] <greycat> the recipient (gmail) may or may not care about that
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3141 [22:50:06] <Guest65> gmail will care
3142 [22:50:06] <uberwag> ok
3143 [22:50:14] <greycat> as years go by and the world is more and more attacked by spam, more and more people care.
3144 [22:51:51] *** Quits: Adran (adran@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Este é o fim.)
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3149 [22:53:28] <greycat> As the sender, you are basically putting two pieces of information on each outgoing message: your hostname (HELO), and an email address of the person sending the mail (MAIL FROM).
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3153 [22:54:59] <greycat> *Most* recipient will do a DNS lookup on your IP address and compare that against your HELO string (usually also doing a DNS lookup of the HELO string, sometimes even attempting to contact the MTA assigned to your domain name).
3154 [22:55:12] *** Quits: cfoch (uid153227@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3155 [22:55:24] <greycat> So, ideally your HELO string should match up with your IP address.
3156 [22:56:06] *** Joins: hermande (~hermande3@replaced-ip )
3157 [22:56:15] <uberwag> ok i understand it better, so you need a trustworthy domain, so the receiving mailserver can check if the message is coming from where it says it's coming from
3158 [22:56:55] <Guest65> yes
3159 [22:57:30] *** Quits: jhutchins_wk1 (~jonathan@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Lost terminal)
3160 [22:57:49] *** Quits: wytchmaster (~wytchmast@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3161 [22:58:01] <uberwag> that also basically means that it is not very easy to setup a mail notification for alerts on your server, i mean, i don't need a domain, i don't really need e-mail functionality, but i just think e-mail alerts are better than trusting me to regularly check the server :)
3162 [22:58:29] <greycat> I'm still wondering what your server *does*, if it doesn't even have a name.
3163 [22:58:48] <greycat> Obviously not a web server.
3164 [22:59:05] <greycat> Definitely not (yet) a mail server.
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3168 [22:59:40] <uberwag> greycat: no it's not a webserver, it runs some scripts only for now
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3170 [23:00:40] <uberwag> when i was following the tutorial how to setup unattended auto updates for debian, it included sending e-mail notifications for when the process fails
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3172 [23:01:03] <uberwag> that brought me here
3173 [23:01:11] <greycat> that's because most people's servers have names, and setting up email is not difficult if your server has a name
3174 [23:01:19] <uberwag> i understand
3175 [23:01:55] <Guest65> wtf is its hostname
3176 [23:02:08] <uberwag> Guest65: debian :)
3177 [23:02:24] <Guest65> no .local or anything?
3178 [23:03:19] <greycat> the whole thing may be moot if his secretive Ukrainian VPS service is blacklisted as a spammer, which is sounding more and more likely the longer this goes on
3179 [23:03:19] <uberwag> no..
3180 [23:03:30] <Guest65> and the hostname for the VPS is
3181 [23:04:12] *** Quits: bionade24 (~oskar@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3182 [23:04:46] <uberwag> greycat: it's nothing like that, why people take offense here if you use a vpn? that's really weird
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3185 [23:05:23] <uberwag> the vpn has nothing to do with my question about a normal vps that just running some python scripts, it's a little vps, with 512mb ram, nothing fancy, i just never have had any domain connected to it
3186 [23:05:49] <greycat> is your VPN's public endpoint 213.155.31.59 the same IP address as your server?
3187 [23:06:12] <uberwag> greycat: no
3188 [23:06:26] <uberwag> totally unrelated
3189 [23:07:25] <greycat> well, good luck.
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3195 [23:08:40] <Guest65> debian.nodomain.com aint getting mail from remote
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3197 [23:09:12] <uberwag> Guest65: but i dont need to get mail from remote.. the vps just needs to send notifications out
3198 [23:09:17] <uberwag> of things that happen on the server
3199 [23:09:26] <uberwag> such as the auto updates
3200 [23:09:27] <Guest65> to who?
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3202 [23:09:39] <uberwag> to any e-mail of mine, but preferably my gmail
3203 [23:10:05] *** Quits: sh00p (~z@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3204 [23:10:11] <uberwag> as in this article: replaced-url
3205 [23:10:14] <Guest65> mailx to you at gmail then... see if it works
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3208 [23:11:01] <uberwag> ok, you suggest i just install mailx and then try from command line?
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3211 [23:11:19] <Guest65> yes with a MTA
3212 [23:11:23] <Guest65> also
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3263 [23:37:49] <ws2k3> did debian replace nagios with icinga in the repository in debian 9 ?
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3275 [23:51:00] <rant> ws2k3: would appear so.. there is icinga and icinga2 and some nagios plugins but I dont see any nagios
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3286 [23:59:06] <rant> ,v nagios3
3287 [23:59:07] <judd> Package: nagios3 on amd64 -- jessie: 3.5.1.dfsg-2+b1; jessie-security: 3.5.1.dfsg-2+deb8u1
3288 [23:59:23] *** Quits: vaidy (vaidy@replaced-ip ) (Excess Flood)
3289 [23:59:26] <jmcnaught> replaced-url
3290 [23:59:27] <judd> Bug replaced-url
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3292 [23:59:54] <rant> thats odd cause p.d.o showed it in sid
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