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• 2[00:01:09] <over7head> i didnt build package
• 3[00:01:15] <petn-randall> over7head: If you compile all needed modules into the kernel you could boot without initrd.
• 4[00:01:31] <petn-randall> over7head: `make debpkg` is the build target that creates a .deb for you to install.
• 5[00:01:48] <over7head> i didnt build kernel from repository
• 6[00:01:56] <over7head> from kernel.org
• 7[00:02:04] <petn-randall> Sorry, `make deb-pkg`.
• 8[00:02:21] <petn-randall> Yes, I know. The upstream sources support that target.
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• 11[00:02:34] <joepublic> when building from kernel.org, just ask nicely and it gives you debs.
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• 13[00:03:34] <over7head> i never do it like that, usually i build kernel and copy image to boot
• 14[00:03:55] <joepublic> you must do what you feel is right, of course, but debs are pretty naturally suited to debian.
• 15[00:04:00] <over7head> myabe i forgot some chipset config
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• 24[00:06:36] <over7head> im not sure why it want acces modules direcotry when compiling
• 25[00:07:06] <over7head> ERROR: could not open directory /lib/modules/4.20.7 no such file or directory
• 26[00:07:30] <joepublic> in my experience, make deb-pkg and then sudo dpkg -i *.deb and then reboot and the new kernel is up and running.
• 27[00:07:32] <over7head> it must create it itselfe when compiling ?
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• 29[00:08:10] <joepublic> so even if that's not the way you want to build, you might do it once and see what the resulting differences are, and then whatever that is, do that.
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• 34[00:10:22] <over7head> joepublic ok i will try
• 35[00:10:35] <over7head> but im sceptic how it will create modules directory
• 36[00:10:46] <over7head> if it doesn want to create it now
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• 46[00:18:10] <over7head> is there command to remove package without removing deps ?
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• 48[00:18:48] <over7head> last time i removed xorg-nvidia, xorg-ati, xorg-wacom and so.. it automatically removes me drivers for keyboard and etc
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• 58[00:21:18] <over7head> i want remove uneeded xorg drivers but it will removes dri, mesa evdev.... if i go to install those, it will automatically install nvideia, ati and so
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• 70[00:24:31] <pingfloyd> over7head: you have to remove the meta-package and manually install the packages
• 71[00:25:49] <pingfloyd> you remove a dependency of the meta-package and it wants to remove the meta-package which in turns removes all the meta-package's dependencies. So if you manually install or mark as manual the package you want to keep, that should fix the dilemma.
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• 73[00:26:41] <pingfloyd> other option is to just leave them all on. How tight is space?
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• 75[00:29:02] <wonderworld> stupid win7 vm backing up windows update files ate a significant percentage of my diskspace
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• 83[00:33:03] <pingfloyd> wonderworld: is your nick from this? replaced-url
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• 87[00:34:19] <wonderworld> haha no it isnt. lol. never saw this video. need to watch
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• 90[00:36:19] <sammm> hey, I have built a metapackage of sorts which allows me to pull in a number of packages based on this metapackage's depends field, my issue is that I have multiple versions of packages in my repo, and if I want to install an older "metapackage", apt complains about unmet dependancies
• 91[00:36:31] <sammm> what is the best / proper way to handle having multiple sets of packages
• 92[00:36:39] <sammm> for easy upgrade / rollback of a suite
• 93[00:36:43] <over7head> joepublic it insrtalled in boot both kernel and initrd, i go to try it now...
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• 95[00:36:50] <otmi> ls
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• 112[00:52:57] <Deihmos> what is your favorite desktop environment? so many to chose from
• 113[00:53:19] <seanicus> command line
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• 117[00:55:15] <Deihmos> no one is going to use a command line as their daily driver
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• 119[00:55:31] <Deihmos> how do you surf the net from command line
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• 121[00:56:54] <n4dir> lynx and such
• 122[00:57:08] <joepublic> there are lots of systems that I interact with primarily by command line.
• 123[00:57:22] <joepublic> I usually surf with curl (or sometimes wget for downloading files)
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• 125[00:57:44] <pingfloyd> gimp must be an extra joy in CLI
• 126[00:57:46] <n4dir> and you can't browse the web with a desktop environment either. You will need a web browser to do such
• 127[00:57:53] <joepublic> pingfloyd, imagemagick.
• 128[00:58:05] <pingfloyd> joepublic: you draw in imagemagick?
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• 131[00:58:31] <L1nuxg33k> I primarily use command line. Links is pretty good.
• 132[00:58:34] <joepublic> pingfloyd, drawing is done more by scripting imagemagick than "drawing in imagemagick"
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• 136[00:59:37] <joepublic> i have a couple machines with xfce, but the CLI-only machines I have far outnumber them.
• 137[00:59:56] <pingfloyd> you know that you don't have to pick one or the other
• 138[01:00:04] <pingfloyd> they're not mutually exclusive
• 139[01:00:27] <joepublic> you have to pick one among lightdm, sddm, gdm, etc.
• 140[01:00:34] <joepublic> should you want to use such a software.
• 141[01:00:42] <pingfloyd> I don't use a DM
• 142[01:01:00] <pingfloyd> there's not must point in one if only you use your system
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• 193[01:28:11] <rocketmagnet> hi everyone
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• 195[01:28:37] <rocketmagnet> is there a way i can see what packagtes got uninstalled in the past so i can reinstall them ?
• 196[01:30:12] <petn-randall> rocketmagnet: /var/log/apt/history.log will list any apt transactions in the near past.
• 197[01:31:05] <SerajewelKS> GumShoe: it looks like mosquitto has an init.d script. if systemd does not properly detect that mosquitto died then this is something you need to report as a bug against the debian package; the generated systemd unit is apparently incorrect. there may be some systemd-specific information the maintainer needs to add to the init.d script.
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• 203[01:32:56] <GumShoe> @SerajewelKS Roger that.
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• 205[01:35:57] <petn-randall> If there's only a init script, systemd just creates a dummy unit that wraps around it.
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• 212[01:38:49] <SerajewelKS> right but systemd is creating one with the wrong Type
• 213[01:38:55] <SerajewelKS> (apparently)
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• 215[01:39:11] <SerajewelKS> that or it needs to know the pidfile. when the service crashes, the systemd unit is still marked active because the service type is presumably Oneshot.
• 216[01:39:36] <SerajewelKS> i assume there is a way to convey this information to systemd-sysv-generator
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• 218[01:40:03] <SerajewelKS> which means that "systemctl start" fails to start the service because systemd thinks it is already running
• 219[01:40:19] <SerajewelKS> GumShoe: one fix would be to create your own unit in /etc/systemd/system
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• 221[01:41:17] <GumShoe> For now I'll just remember your explanation of why start failed while restart works. I will attempt to pursue talking to the package maintainer.
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• 223[01:41:49] <SerajewelKS> the proper fix is probably for them to include a systemd unit in the package
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• 225[01:42:42] <GumShoe> That's the approach I'm thinking to suggest. Perhaps one of the other distributions has a systemd .service file...
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• 227[01:44:02] <SerajewelKS> probably. you may have to debianize it.
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• 230[01:44:52] <GumShoe> ;-)
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• 232[01:46:06] <SerajewelKS> in particular, every path could be wrong so you'll have to adjust paths almost certainly
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• 327[03:28:08] <Deihmos> i am trying to use the live cd on my laptop but it boots to a black screen. anyone know what the issue could be?
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• 333[03:39:21] <pingfloyd> Deihmos: how far into the boot process do you get before the black screen?
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• 335[03:39:27] <pingfloyd> and which live cd?
• 336[03:39:55] <Deihmos> when i select live cd it just goes to a black screen. i am downloading the testing cd right now
• 337[03:40:03] <Deihmos> stable release was used
• 338[03:40:04] <pingfloyd> which live cd?
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• 345[03:45:22] <Deihmos> gnome
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• 357[04:01:43] <Deihmos> The live cd does not work in UEFI mode. I had to boot it using bios mode
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• 360[04:03:04] <Deihmos> WiFi does not work either.
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• 363[04:05:35] <toruvinn> Deihmos, you have secureboot enabled?
• 364[04:05:41] <Deihmos> nope
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• 380[04:16:19] <t3st3r> Deihmos> what's your GPU, etc?
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• 384[04:18:41] <dka> When I am on Windows 10, my front jack is working, when I am on debian, I can't plug headphone on it I haVe no sounds, is this fixable ?
• 385[04:19:40] <Deihmos> replaced-url
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• 389[04:21:26] <Deihmos> The Ubuntu live cd works fine
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• 393[04:23:38] <protectionfault> It's how I got a virus.
• 394[04:23:46] <protectionfault> The GNU/Linux virus that is.
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• 402[04:28:54] <Deihmos> I think i need the non free iso
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• 404[04:28:59] <protectionfault> Deihmos, do you still have the same problem? One cause could be that you have selected the i386 while in fact you need the amd64 cd
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• 406[04:29:16] <Deihmos> No that’s not it.
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• 408[04:29:36] <protectionfault> Just checking, I'm sorry if it already came up.
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• 411[04:29:57] <Deihmos> I got it to boot in bios mode. There is no WiFi. Read there aren’t many free WiFi drivers
• 412[04:30:19] <protectionfault> bios mode has nothing to do with the live cd
• 413[04:30:33] <OerHeks> GeForce® MX150 .. GT1030 ? nomodeset should help
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• 415[04:30:45] <rant> most all the drivers are free, its the firmware that isn't "free"
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• 417[04:31:54] <Deihmos> replaced-url
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• 419[04:32:26] <Deihmos> Read it under availability of compatible WiFi chipsets
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• 421[04:32:51] <protectionfault> dka, are you still here? What kind of soundcard does Windows say it is?
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• 423[04:33:27] <Deihmos> Like I said though the Ubuntu live cd works fine. WiFi and everything works
• 424[04:34:15] <dka> protectionfault, I can't reboot now
• 425[04:34:30] <dka> (work)
• 426[04:34:34] <protectionfault> Deihmos, if you're unlucky OerHeks is right and you need to check out nomodeset. If you're lucky you just picked the wrong cpu version.
• 427[04:34:49] <dka> All I know is that default driver usually work for debian for my sounds cards, but this time, the front panel fail while windows 10 can
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• 431[04:35:35] <protectionfault> no reboot is no problem i think, what I am hinting at is to install an additional package for your specific soundchip
• 432[04:35:59] <protectionfault> 99% of the time that is possible, so the answer to your question: "can this be fixed" is almost certainly yes
• 433[04:36:52] <dka> How can I give you my hardware information ?
• 434[04:37:09] <protectionfault> I don't think you need to.
• 435[04:37:25] <dka> What can I do?
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• 439[04:38:19] <protectionfault> you should do "lspci" and see if you recognize the brand name of your soundchip
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• 441[04:38:50] <dka> E: Unable to locate package lscpi
• 442[04:38:53] <dka> sudo: lscpi: command not found
• 443[04:38:55] <dka> bash: lscpi: command not found
• 444[04:38:59] <dka> oups
• 445[04:39:03] <protectionfault> ;)
• 446[04:39:17] <dka> replaced-url
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• 448[04:39:51] <protectionfault> I think I know how to help you now.
• 449[04:40:21] <protectionfault> You have an Intel cpu (which ironically still uses the amd64 version of the live CD..)
• 450[04:40:51] <protectionfault> That one has the soundchip in the cpu. If you install intel-firmware or firmware-intel (i forget which) you should be fine
• 451[04:41:18] *** Quits: oahong (~samigarus@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
• 452[04:41:20] <Deihmos> The non free iso is what I needed. It booted fine with UEFI and WiFi works.
• 453[04:41:23] <dka> firmware-intel-sound - Binary firmware for Intel sound DSPs OR firmware-intelwimax - Binary firmware for Intel WiMAX Connection
• 454[04:41:32] <protectionfault> sound
• 455[04:41:53] <dka> Deihmos, yeah always take the non free, it activate by default the non-free repo which often is required when installing a desktop environment
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• 459[04:42:44] <dka> I've installed it but still no sounds
• 460[04:42:50] <dka> should I restart debian?
• 461[04:42:57] <protectionfault> wouldn't hurt
• 462[04:43:10] <dka> I can't now
• 463[04:43:12] <rant> hurts me
• 464[04:43:22] <dka> I will do it at the end of the day, I hope it is fixed
• 465[04:43:35] <protectionfault> you use gnome I suppose?
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• 467[04:43:54] <protectionfault> perhaps the soundcard is already available in the config options, so you just need to select it
• 468[04:43:55] <dka> Cinnamon
• 469[04:43:59] <rant> at most you'd need only reload the modules.. and I havent done it since systemd but alsa used to have an init script that did this
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• 471[04:44:11] <dka> there's no change and no new available sounds cards in the sounds settingfs
• 472[04:44:27] <protectionfault> perhaps you need another package as well
• 473[04:44:30] <rant> well for that part of it you may need to also kill/restart pulseaudio too
• 474[04:44:41] <protectionfault> rant is right about that
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• 477[04:44:54] <rant> but for the firmware you may need the modules to reload
• 478[04:45:27] <dka> how can I restart pulseaudio?
• 479[04:46:13] <rant> usually all you gotta do is killall pulseaudio
• 480[04:46:19] <dka> I restarted it and it is not yet working
• 481[04:46:31] <rant> but the modules need to be reloaded first if there was missing firmware
• 482[04:46:48] <dka> how to reload modules ?
• 483[04:46:49] <rant> and it would appear there is no systemd unit for alsa like there was a sysvinit script for it before
• 484[04:47:03] <dka> Ok brb I am gonna try to reboot
• 485[04:47:24] <rant> problem with manually reloading alsa modules is there are a ton of em :P
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• 487[04:48:09] <pingfloyd> dka: pulseaudio -k; pulsaudio -D
• 488[04:48:18] <pingfloyd> (without my typo)
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• 490[04:48:54] <rant> yeah thats not really necessary.. its already running as a daemon, killing it will cause it to reload
• 491[04:49:24] <dka> re
• 492[04:49:26] <dka> I've just restarted
• 493[04:49:28] <rant> unless of course you had modified the default configs
• 494[04:49:36] <rant> cause you can set it to not reload
• 495[04:49:46] <pingfloyd> it's a catchall
• 496[04:49:48] <dka> Still not working
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• 498[04:50:04] <protectionfault> you will probably also want to install intel-microcode
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• 502[04:51:14] <dka> still not working even with intel-microcode install
• 503[04:51:22] <dka> should I now remove both to keep my OS clean?
• 504[04:51:36] <dka> if it's not needed it shouldn't be here
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• 506[04:52:03] <protectionfault> I recommended microcode for your security, not to fix the problem at hand.
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• 510[04:53:28] <dka> I can keep it.
• 511[04:53:49] <protectionfault> wouldn't hurt
• 512[04:53:50] <dka> Should I remove firmware-intel-sound ?
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• 515[04:55:44] <protectionfault> Well, it should work.
• 516[04:56:32] <protectionfault> I'm not entirely sure if you've rebooted yet. If not, that would certainly be worth a shot before ditching it.
• 517[04:57:45] <dka> I did reboot
• 518[04:58:12] <protectionfault> Apologies. Then I'm out of ideas.
• 519[04:59:51] <protectionfault> To recap, we've installed what is probably the right driver for your soundcard, but it still doesn't show up.
• 520[05:01:03] <protectionfault> Ok, two new ideas.
• 521[05:01:31] <protectionfault> 1) reboot into windows to find the exact model, so you can google the forums better
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• 523[05:02:02] <protectionfault> 2) check pulseaudio for the routing, perhaps it's sending the signal to the wrong audio output
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• 529[05:06:15] <dka> how can i do 2)
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• 533[05:08:01] <dka> Since when Windows deal with driver better than debian :o
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• 535[05:08:39] <dvs> dka, since it's actually supported by its manufacturer
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• 538[05:10:43] <protectionfault> pavucontrol is a package that would allow you to diagnose it, provided your configuration is running pulseaudio of course
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• 555[05:20:28] <pingfloyd> dka: is your user in the audio group?
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• 558[05:21:14] <pingfloyd> dka: you realize that Windows partners with a lot of OEMs and manufacturers.
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• 560[05:21:34] <pingfloyd> dka: they often work together on Windows drivers
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• 566[05:22:36] <dka> dka@dev-11:[~]: cat /etc/group | grep audio
• 567[05:22:37] <dka> audio:x:29:pulse
• 568[05:22:46] <dka> No I am not
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• 570[05:22:57] <dka> sudo usermod -a -G dka audio ?
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• 575[05:25:45] <protectionfault> depends on the current role of the machine.
• 576[05:26:19] <protectionfault> If it's a critical machine, you probably best shouldn't touch the groups without having the confidence to execute those commands without asking here. :)
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• 579[05:27:56] <protectionfault> dev-11 sounds like it's not running a hospital's e-mail, so you're probably fine trying to add yourself to that group.
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• 581[05:28:33] <protectionfault> Although I've seen weirder names in the wild.
• 582[05:28:52] <SerajewelKS> unlikely such an email host would have an audio server running anyway
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• 585[05:31:53] <pingfloyd> dka: you can see by typing 'groups'
• 586[05:32:15] <dvs> dka, sudo adduser dka audio
• 587[05:32:40] <pingfloyd> after you add the group, you should logout and back in to make it take effect
• 588[05:32:46] <protectionfault> Sorry dka maybe we are to tough on you. Sudo is nice, but not default in debian.
• 589[05:32:54] <protectionfault> *too
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• 591[05:33:37] <dka> ok
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• 598[05:36:53] <pingfloyd> protectionfault: you can choose it in the installer
• 599[05:37:59] <protectionfault> pingfloyd: thanks, does it add you to the group too?
• 600[05:38:10] <pingfloyd> maybe the first user
• 601[05:38:15] <pingfloyd> user 1000
• 602[05:38:27] <pingfloyd> you mean audio group right?
• 603[05:38:43] <protectionfault> no I mean sudo the program, and sudo the group
• 604[05:38:56] <pingfloyd> if you choose to use sudo from the installer, it adds you the sudo group
• 605[05:39:10] <pingfloyd> still a good idea to check though
• 606[05:40:17] <protectionfault> ok thanks, I feel dka is comfortable with sudo and grep btw, I just wish we could get his intel card working, it can't be that hard
• 607[05:40:28] <pingfloyd> it's something to effect of "would you rather enable root login, or disable it and use sudo with initial regular user". I usually go with the latter and then come back and enable root login.
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• 610[05:41:25] <protectionfault> but that's the least amount of work
• 611[05:41:34] <pingfloyd> protectionfault: it's probably going to come down to process of elimination in his case
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• 613[05:41:53] <pingfloyd> something is probably off, but it's not real clear yet. So I'd just cover all the bases.
• 614[05:42:03] <protectionfault> indeed
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• 616[05:42:29] <protectionfault> It can feel like there's a lot of bases, at times.
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• 618[05:43:09] <pingfloyd> I assume levels were already checked
• 619[05:43:33] <pingfloyd> it's always good to start with the quick and simple to check possible culprits first
• 620[05:43:35] <protectionfault> things like that
• 621[05:44:12] <pingfloyd> kind of like when you're working support, you want to start by getting all the tier 1 troubleshooting out of the way first just to rule them out of the picture.
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• 624[05:44:43] <pingfloyd> because there's nothing worse that spending hours troubleshooting and it turns out to just be a loose cable etc.
• 625[05:45:09] <dvs> which I loosened
• 626[05:45:13] <protectionfault> and work your way up the osi model
• 627[05:45:21] <protectionfault> it do be like that
• 628[05:45:22] <pingfloyd> had that happen once with a network jack that turned out the clip was broken, so its connection problems were intermittent.
• 629[05:46:00] <pingfloyd> our T1 support skipped checking that, so ended up wasting day on it
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• 631[05:46:21] <protectionfault> intermittent problems are the worst
• 632[05:46:45] <protectionfault> in terms of wasting time
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• 635[05:47:47] <pingfloyd> I finally walked to the machine and checked the cable myself, because at that point there seemed to be no reason (exhausted checking things and everything checked out ok in terms of configuration). I did just entertain myself and low and behold. So I made a new cable and that problem was fixed for good.
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• 640[05:50:21] <pingfloyd> it was hanging on by a thread, so sometimes it would work fine and other time couldn't connect to anything. My original intention to try to swap the cable to rule/out in a bad cable and then swap out a nic next if the cable was okay. It was just the connector and plastic tab broke off from age.
• 641[05:50:25] <protectionfault> One problem at a time, I think realizing that after just one day beats most organizations.
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• 644[05:52:33] <pingfloyd> yeah, sometimes you look like a whiz, just because you were thorough and followed that you can't rule anything out completely unless experiment/test proves it. Kind of like what Feynman says, "t doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."
• 645[05:53:38] <protectionfault> I am a big fan of Feynman, but I must admit I understand only a sliver of what he is talking about.
• 646[05:53:49] <pingfloyd> me too
• 647[05:54:00] <pingfloyd> but that quote is the essence of science
• 648[05:54:29] <protectionfault> elimination
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• 650[05:55:40] <pingfloyd> he's basically saying that controlled experimentation has the final say always.
• 651[05:56:02] <protectionfault> About what is not.
• 652[05:56:40] <pingfloyd> here's a better version of that quote replaced-url
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• 685[06:44:01] <rocketmagnet> hi everyone
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• 687[06:45:54] <rocketmagnet> when i try to use apt-update he stop at random points, for example he can't fetch the repos from ftp.debian.org main but i can ping it, he stops at random points, what can be the trouble ?
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• 691[06:51:03] <babilen> You might want to use a faster mirror like deb.debian.org in lieu of ftp.debian.org
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• 694[06:53:40] <FXpro> is the password crackable on debian?
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• 697[06:55:54] <sveta> FXpro, i believe it's salted, depends on how strong it was in hte first place; often people disable passworded login by ssh server and only allow login via keypair
• 698[06:56:03] <agris> does anyone here use httpd?
• 699[06:56:05] <sveta> FXpro, which complicates entry to the system from the outside
• 700[06:56:10] <sveta> agris, yes, at #httpd
• 701[06:56:19] <agris> sveta, not not apache
• 702[06:56:25] <agris> Openhttpd
• 703[06:56:28] <sveta> agris, which one do you mean then
• 704[06:57:15] <FXpro> if you cant get past the password, the system is secured as far as data right? meaning, a device is useless to anyone who might steal it or find if lost?
• 705[06:57:57] <babilen> copy the hdd/ssd
• 706[06:59:17] <sveta> agris, oh ok
• 707[06:59:47] <agris> How do you get it working for a chrooted php-fpm as well?
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• 709[07:02:03] <rocketmagnet> also if i change mirrors he allways stuck at 0% at a random repo
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• 711[07:03:05] <chocolate> If I'm securing my data through a vpn connection on my laptop, and I want secured data at my linux vm running on vmware at the same laptop connected to openvpn server, do I need to connect to openvpn server again inside the vm, or it is already secured?
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• 716[07:11:48] <rant> chocolate: that depends I suppose on how the vm is configured
• 717[07:12:25] <rant> chocolate: most VM are capable of handling networking a number of ways
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• 747[07:36:24] <rocketmagnet> hi everyone, i've the following error when running pip: replaced-url
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• 749[07:36:33] <rocketmagnet> i've no idea how to solve this
• 750[07:37:25] <rant> rocketmagnet: you ran pip when you should've ran pip3
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• 752[07:37:50] <rocketmagnet> pip3 hasthe same error
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• 754[07:38:00] <rant> then idk
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• 756[07:38:37] <themill> rant: you can install the lsb-release package, but it shouldn't be needed for this
• 757[07:38:44] <themill> What release of Debian is this?
• 758[07:40:50] <rant> I need to remember to file a bug against pastebinit if it uses that damn site by default.. that site is atrocious
• 759[07:41:29] <themill> pastebinit uses paste.debian.net by default
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• 761[07:42:02] <rocketmagnet> stable
• 762[07:42:19] <rant> ah, looked like that was pasted by pastebinit.. really aggrivates me when people use that site with its popups, cookies, javascript, etc..
• 763[07:43:07] <rocketmagnet> i tried pip -v | pastebinit but it didn't worked
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• 767[07:44:05] <themill> I can't reproduce that output btw
• 768[07:44:51] <rocketmagnet> i think i've messed arond with my repos
• 769[07:45:02] <rocketmagnet> i think i need a few install
• 770[07:45:07] <rocketmagnet> fresh
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• 954[09:47:17] <shtrb> Anyone know what is the sddm theme in debian that come with "Soft waves" wallpapers in lock screen ?
• 955[09:47:27] <shtrb> *in stretch
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• 958[09:48:27] <[E]sc> i'm using Debian 4.9-130-2. With the latest update, VLC was removed. Did anyone else experience this? I had to downgrade the vlc version to get it back again...
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• 960[09:49:12] <themill> shtrb: desktop-base
• 961[09:49:56] <themill> [E]sc: 4.9-130-2 doesn't look like a Debian version. Can you pastebin your entire apt session?
• 962[09:50:12] <shtrb> themill, isn't desktop-base give breeze ?
• 963[09:50:25] <themill> shtrb: softwaves is in there
• 964[09:50:55] <themill> /usr/share/desktop-base/softwaves-theme/lockscreen/contents/images/1920x1080.svg
• 965[09:51:12] <shtrb> I need the sddm theme for that, but thank you will look better
• 966[09:51:48] <themill> I *think* sddm is configured to use desktop-base if it is installed
• 967[09:51:57] <themill> (kdm had that and I thought sddm did too)
• 968[09:52:26] <oiaohm> [E]sc: what version of debian is that.
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• 972[09:53:12] <themill> (it's an old kernel in stretch, but that doesn't necessarily tell us anything)
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• 978[09:56:20] <shtrb> themill, if /usr/share/desktop-base/softwaves-theme/login/sddm-preview.jpg exist it means the login section system-settings should show softwaves-theme correct ?
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• 981[09:56:48] <themill> I've not looked at the details for sddm
• 982[09:57:19] <oiaohm> [E]sc: replaced-url
• 983[09:57:40] <shtrb> thanks, maybe I got some config file corrupted
• 984[09:57:42] <shtrb> thank you!
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• 991[10:00:21] <shtrb> aha ! it's missing the qml files. there should be another package probably
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• 1007[10:07:28] <rafalcpp> for security (isolation) how to start a window, that will have contained inside it a desktop where I can log in as another user? the result will be, that user for example test_software will be running some programs, all while I work on my main user, on same screen (but other wndows)
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• 1011[10:08:19] <diogenes_> rafalcpp, a VM?
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• 1014[10:10:44] <rafalcpp> diogenes_: but without a VM
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• 1016[10:11:10] <rafalcpp> just separation of linux users, though without need to switch virtual desktops to see both at once
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• 1021[10:12:57] <diogenes_> rafalcpp, maybe place an linux.iso somewhere on the drive and make a grub entry that will load that iso in a live session and once you reboot you pick that live session.
• 1022[10:13:30] <themill> xephyr can do this but by the time you have a shared X session, you have no isolation
• 1023[10:13:51] <themill> ,i xserver-xephyr
• 1024[10:13:52] <judd> Package xserver-xephyr (x11, optional) in stretch/amd64: nested X server. Version: 2:1.19.2-1+deb9u5; Size: 2883.6k; Installed: 4494k; Homepage: replaced-url
• 1025[10:14:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1555
• 1026[10:14:07] <rafalcpp> diogenes_: what? that is even worse
• 1027[10:14:40] <diogenes_> rafalcpp, how is that worse?
• 1028[10:14:46] <rafalcpp> diogenes_: I dislike wasting the 2 seconds to switch between virtual desktops to switch users, so you recommend to do a full reboot each time I switch? :P
• 1029[10:14:57] <rafalcpp> I plan to switch between them like 3 times a minute.
• 1030[10:15:08] <diogenes_> lol
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• 1033[10:15:29] <rafalcpp> themill: yeap, is there any way to do xephyr in a secure way
• 1034[10:15:53] <themill> The level of isolation you request is called "VM".
• 1035[10:16:08] <rafalcpp> themill: I want unix level isolation, not VM level
• 1036[10:16:28] <themill> except X is shared
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• 1038[10:16:48] <rafalcpp> well you can do it by starting second user in second X, running VNC sever there, and running VNC server on first user
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• 1042[10:17:01] <at0m> once x is shared, you dun goofed. same reason why root has no business on a desktop, IMO
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• 1044[10:17:04] <rafalcpp> but isn't there some more polish solution or way to do it
• 1045[10:17:22] <rafalcpp> at0m: yes, it requires two separate X servers
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• 1047[10:18:31] <at0m> rafalcpp: some DE allow you to run a second desktop on another X, like if the first runs on tty7, start another on tty8. then switch, or VNC from 7 to 8.
• 1048[10:18:44] <at0m> like themill told you
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• 1050[10:18:57] <at0m> either that, or VM.
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• 1052[10:19:47] <rafalcpp> at0m: yeap I do that now. but how do you get view from both X'es into one screen
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• 1054[10:20:21] <rafalcpp> oh right, I assue that the "main" X session, lets say first one, is the secure one (of course it could attack the other session). What I want is to block the other way around
• 1055[10:20:26] <at0m> using VNC you can at least show the windows side-by-side
• 1056[10:20:35] <rafalcpp> e.g. the 2nd session must be unable to modify windows etc on 1st
• 1057[10:20:45] <themill> You could try some sort of rdp from one session to the other. I don't know how good that isolation is though
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• 1060[10:21:25] <themill> (rdp/vnc/spice/whatever, they're all designed to make integrating with the remote client easy, not necessarily for isolation of the remote client)
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• 1062[10:21:58] <rafalcpp> is there a secure way to run VNC if client and server are on same device? maybe socket file?
• 1063[10:22:22] <shtrb> you can use xypher to allow a window in window into a vm
• 1064[10:22:24] <themill> that part is easy enough
• 1065[10:22:35] <rafalcpp> I forgot, what was the proper way to start VNC server on the "slave" desktop, and then what command on master to connect into it
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• 1068[10:23:20] <diogenes_> rafalcpp, if you got a second pc you can use something like chrome remote desktop for easy sharing and testing
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• 1072[10:24:03] <rafalcpp> diogenes_: of course, but this time I ask about the lightweight version, just user bases isolation, not VMs, not dockers/LXC, not separate machine, not xen
• 1073[10:24:11] <rafalcpp> *users based
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• 1075[10:24:35] <diogenes_> and the choices are limited
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• 1079[10:29:00] <[E]sc> oiaohm, i'm on Debian Stretch 9.7. I have the security updates via deb replaced-url
• 1080[10:29:18] <rafalcpp> so no one can recommend options to start VNC server using only a file-based socket, to make it secure, only given other local linux user should be allowed to connect as client
• 1081[10:30:01] <themill> !show sources.list [E]sc
• 1082[10:30:01] <dpkg> [E]sc: Please pastebin the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*.list. The easiest way to do this is to pastebin the output of: head -v -n -0 /etc/apt/sources.list{,.d/*}
• 1083[10:30:38] <themill> [E]sc: the output of "apt-cache policy vlc; apt-cache policy" would also be good to see
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• 1087[10:33:38] <ws2k3> joepublic it seems apt-get dist-upgrade -y -qq does not accept and quiet the upgrade
• 1088[10:34:41] <[E]sc> themill, my pastebin of my /etc/apt/sources.list : replaced-url
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• 1090[10:35:14] <themill> [E]sc: as soon as you put deb-multimedia.org in your sources.list you are on your own.
• 1091[10:35:50] <themill> [E]sc: that is pretty much guaranteed to be the source of the problem
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• 1095[10:40:40] <shtrb> Is there a way to list to file content of a package given in packages.debian.org ? (example I would like to directly link to replaced-url
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• 1106[10:47:47] <[E]sc> themill, i see. thanks.
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• 1109[10:48:35] <themill> [E]sc: out of interest, why did you choose to use deb-multimedia.org?
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• 1111[10:49:00] <ws2k3> how can i let apt-get dist-upgrade not ask anything? i tryed -y -qq but it still asks me questions
• 1112[10:49:13] <tarzeau> ws2k3: there's cron-apt and aptitude-robot
• 1113[10:49:40] <themill> ws2k3: what questions is it asking?
• 1114[10:49:45] <JeffJohnson> ws2k3: the questions are coming from dpkg I guess?
• 1115[10:49:59] <themill> (or from ucf)
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• 1117[10:50:19] <ws2k3> themill for example if i wanne keep my current sysctl.conf and if i wanne restart services during upgrade
• 1118[10:50:38] <[E]sc> themill, i was using it for a while when certain multimedia packages weren't available in the main repository, and it was all consolidated there for easier / lazier access instead of adding each one separately. what would you recommend?
• 1119[10:51:16] <JeffJohnson> ws2k3: try "export DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive DEBCONF_NONINTERACTIVE_SEEN=true"
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• 1121[10:51:35] <ws2k3> JeffJohnson i will try thanks
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• 1129[10:59:27] <Antioch> I am trying to install the netinst of Debian 9.7 to a "newer" Atom C3000 based board and having problems, the first of which is failure to boot after installation with the following error: "firmware: failed to load qat_c3xxx_mmp.bin" -- is this because the kernel is too old? I have no idea, because the live CD worked just fine.
• 1130[10:59:29] <Antioch> Any thoughts?
• 1131[11:00:15] <FinalX> ,v libssl
• 1132[11:00:16] <judd> No package named 'libssl' was found in amd64.
• 1133[11:00:21] <FinalX> ,v openssl
• 1134[11:00:22] <judd> Package: openssl on amd64 -- wheezy: 1.0.1e-2+deb7u20; wheezy-security: 1.0.1t-1+deb7u4; jessie: 1.0.1t-1+deb8u8; jessie-security: 1.0.1t-1+deb8u8; jessie-backports: 1.0.2l-1~bpo8+1; stretch: 1.1.0f-3+deb9u2; stretch-proposed-updates: 1.1.0j-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.1.0j-1~deb9u1; buster: 1.1.1a-1; sid: 1.1.1a-1
• 1135[11:00:38] <oiaohm> Antioch: you would be attempting the standard boot loader.
• 1136[11:00:39] <themill> [E]sc: I've not found any need for multimedia packages outside Debian for 8 or so years. It's all packaged up in Debian already.
• 1137[11:00:47] <oiaohm> Antioch: opps standard netinstall disc
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• 1140[11:01:49] <oiaohm> Antioch: replaced-url
• 1141[11:01:50] <Antioch> That's right
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• 1145[11:04:17] <Antioch> oiaohm thanks, I'll take a look. Along the same line, might you have any documentation for including newer drivers as well? It seems that I need a newer intel nic driver than included in the standard disc.
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• 1155[11:09:27] <oiaohm> Antioch: the Linux kernel in the standard disc normally contains the driver what is missing is the firmware file. qat_c3xxx_mmp.bin << this is firmware file to activate the device.
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• 1159[11:10:10] <oiaohm> Antioch: and due to license problems with some of the firmware the full list of possible firmwares is only on the unofficial disc.
• 1160[11:10:33] <oiaohm> Antioch: its a real newbie trap with debian.
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• 1166[11:12:21] <Antioch> this newer firmware will get the ixgbe driver to work properly?
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• 1171[11:15:15] <oiaohm> Antioch: this is a case of newer firmware. THe stock debian offical image is missing the firmware.
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• 1173[11:15:44] <oiaohm> Antioch: with firmware it stands a chance of working.
• 1174[11:16:08] <oiaohm> Antioch: opps this is not a case of newer firmware is what I meant to type.
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• 1177[11:17:08] <Antioch> Another issue I have is that during the installation the installer asks me to select the driver to use for networking. Even though ixgbe is what should work, when I select it the installer thinks and returns back to network driver select. I'm guessing that the driver included may be too old to support my device.
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• 1179[11:17:28] <Antioch> This may be something I can fix after installation, but if there's a way to fix it during I'd prefer that :)
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• 1210[11:30:53] <jelly-home> Antioch: that message might have nothing to do with system failing to boot.
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• 1214[11:31:22] <jelly-home> Antioch: that message might have nothing to do with system failing to boot.
• 1215[11:31:28] <Antioch> sorry, dc'ed
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• 1217[11:31:40] <Antioch> please resend :)
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• 1219[11:32:15] <jelly-home> Antioch: see if installing buster makes any difference. Or boot some other linux, and install newer kernel from stretch-backports
• 1220[11:32:19] <jelly-home> !bdo kernel
• 1221[11:32:19] <dpkg> Newer kernels for Debian stable releases are available from the <stretch-backports> repository. After modifying your sources.list, run «aptitude update». To install the current backported kernel: «aptitude -t stretch-backports install linux-image-`uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,'`». To list available backported kernel image packages: «aptitude search '?narrow(~nlinux-image,?origin(Debian Backports))'».
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• 1225[11:33:46] <Antioch> jelly-home this is in reference to the network driver issue?
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• 1233[11:36:28] <Antioch> recent versions of Ubuntu live work with the network driver just fine. I believe that 4.9 kernel just has drivers that are too old. So if I can get the boot issue solved (hopefully this firmware trick works) then I have somewhere to start working on the network drivers.
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• 1241[11:40:25] <Antioch> is it possible to insert a newer kernel into the installation image?
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• 1244[11:41:38] <Fox> Antioch: replaced-url
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• 1247[11:44:31] <tarzeau> Antioch: yes it's possible
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• 1256[11:49:28] <doublehp> how to permanently change MTU ?
• 1257[11:50:21] <petn-randall> doublehp: There are a few ways. How are you configuring the network interface?
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• 1259[11:50:32] <doublehp> value set with sysctl is overriden after new dhclient
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• 1261[11:51:04] <doublehp> petn-randall: scripted manually; but dhclient changes values I set with sysctl
• 1262[11:51:39] <petn-randall> doublehp: I would recommend to use ifupdown or network-manager, you can set the mtu with both of those.
• 1263[11:52:02] <Antioch> network card still fails to detect on the non-free firmware image.
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• 1274[12:00:09] <Antioch> Still get failed to load qat_cxxx_mmp.bin with the non-free firmware image
• 1275[12:00:13] <Antioch> and other ideas?
• 1276[12:00:15] <Antioch> any*
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• 1284[12:04:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1569
• 1285[12:04:09] <petn-randall> Antioch: Is that literally the error message? As it's different from the one before.
• 1286[12:04:47] <petn-randall> Antioch: You can simply install firmware-misc-nonfree to get that firmware.
• 1287[12:04:52] <Antioch> No, sorry. It's exactly the same as before.
• 1288[12:05:04] <Antioch> can't install if I can't boot?
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• 1291[12:06:30] <Antioch> firmware: failed to load qat_c3xxx_mmp.bin (-2), failed to load MMP firmware qat_c3xxx_mmp.bin, failed to load acceleration FW
• 1292[12:08:17] <petn-randall> Antioch: You can boot the live system, chroot into your installation, and simply install the package.
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• 1302[12:13:29] <Antioch> hmmm, this is news to me! Will try. But I assume the non-free firmware image I installed off of would have handled that part, no?
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• 1308[12:17:49] <petn-randall> Antioch: Maybe, I'm not sure what's in the firmware-installer.
• 1309[12:19:56] <Antioch> ok
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• 1347[12:48:41] <AquaL1te> will debian stable update its php packages soon? replaced-url
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• 1355[12:51:01] <blackflow> AquaL1te: it's never going to happen for Stretch. When Buster becomes Stable, then Debian Stable will have PHP 7.3
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• 1358[12:51:47] <AquaL1te> blackflow: what about security fixes?
• 1359[12:51:47] <blackflow> there are however external repos should you really need a different php version on Stretch
• 1360[12:52:00] <blackflow> AquaL1te: replaced-url
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• 1364[12:53:17] <AquaL1te> blackflow: i'll switch distro, sorry
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• 1367[12:53:38] <blackflow> AquaL1te: buster is coming out soon
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• 1372[12:56:00] <oiaohm> AquaL1te: I have rarely run pure stable debian most of the time I am either running testing or a hybrid of stable and testing mostly to have those newer packages
• 1373[12:56:13] <AquaL1te> blackflow: soon in debian terms is often still months away, correct?
• 1374[12:56:29] <AquaL1te> oiaohm: these are servers, not workstations
• 1375[12:56:33] <blackflow> AquaL1te: yes ,but with soft freeze coming on, I've already begun upgrades to some non-critical servers.
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• 1377[12:56:43] <oiaohm> AquaL1te: I use debian testing on servers.
• 1378[12:56:46] <blackflow> besides, switching distros sounds like a knee jerk reaction to a potential but rather unlikely problem. also if your security relies _primarily_ on timely updates and patches, you're doing it wrong.
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• 1380[12:57:47] <AquaL1te> blackflow: applying php security fixes on time and not running a non-supported version is doing it right ;)
• 1381[12:58:01] <AquaL1te> *running a support php version*
• 1382[12:58:36] <blackflow> AquaL1te: no. layers of mitigation is doing it right. even fully supported super stable packages, sometimes take weeks or months until something is backported.
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• 1384[12:59:02] <blackflow> s/backported/patched
• 1385[13:00:00] <oiaohm> AquaL1te: I learnt a long term ago debian even running as hybrid between testing and stable is still quite a solid distribution.
• 1386[13:00:09] <AquaL1te> blackflow: well, i'm not putting so much trust in that. besides, you have no idea what infrastructure i run. one thing is for sure, non-supported php is a no-go.
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• 1388[13:00:29] <AquaL1te> oiaohm: not my experience
• 1389[13:00:41] <blackflow> AquaL1te: it's not unsupported.
• 1390[13:01:13] <blackflow> take Ubuntu for instance. current LTS will offer the unsupported, EOL'd kernel for the next 10 years.
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• 1392[13:01:19] <furrymcgee> which specific php bugs needs to be fixed?
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• 1394[13:01:39] <blackflow> AquaL1te: so which distro will you switch to, and what security vulns will you get _instead_? :)
• 1395[13:02:03] <AquaL1te> furrymcgee: does one need to wait until it becomes a problem? i don't put that much trust in maintainers. why is this so hard to get?
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• 1397[13:02:16] <blackflow> AquaL1te: but you DO, lol
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• 1399[13:02:24] <blackflow> you DO put trust in them for "supported versions"
• 1400[13:02:35] <blackflow> what's the difference here except the number in version?
• 1401[13:02:57] <AquaL1te> blackflow: from upstream, yes. php 7.0 is now unsupported, no upstream support anymore
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• 1403[13:03:14] <furrymcgee> new version introduce new bugs in general
• 1404[13:03:23] <blackflow> AquaL1te: so which distro will you migrate to? Ubuntu? with 4.15 EOL'd unsupported kernel?
• 1405[13:03:23] <oiaohm> AquaL1te: most package in distributions that are called stable are unsupported upstream.
• 1406[13:03:29] <jelly> AquaL1te: debian security team still supports it
• 1407[13:03:35] <blackflow> and if you say arch, then just run Debian testing right now. it's far more stable than arch and it has php 7.3.
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• 1409[13:04:06] <AquaL1te> blackflow: we're already running some servers on fedora. their new modules support is quite nice. you can pin versions throughout releases.
• 1410[13:04:08] <blackflow> with the soft freeze tomorrow, it's all bugfixes onward.
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• 1412[13:04:17] <oiaohm> AquaL1te: I mostly have end up running debian testing to having supported up stream packages.
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• 1414[13:04:25] <jelly> blackflow: testing has _worst_ security support of all debian branches
• 1415[13:04:28] <oiaohm> AquaL1te: fedora and debian testing are the same class.
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• 1417[13:05:00] <oiaohm> jelly: testing also has the most upstream fixed packages.
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• 1420[13:05:08] <AquaL1te> oiaohm: different quality IMHO. but i'm not here to start a flame war about distro's...
• 1421[13:05:12] <oiaohm> jelly: kind of balnces out.
• 1422[13:05:14] <jelly> oiaohm: that'd be sid.
• 1423[13:05:27] <oiaohm> jelly: sid you may get a part package set.
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• 1425[13:05:38] <jelly> oiaohm: same with testing
• 1426[13:05:40] <blackflow> if fedora is alternative, then Debian Sid is even better than testing for, yes, the reasons jelly mentioned security-wis
• 1427[13:06:05] <oiaohm> jelly: In fact no. The automated install and uninstall with testing means part package sets cannot enter testing.
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• 1431[13:06:30] <jelly> oiaohm: in fact, testing is worse than sid during freeze, and right after a release
• 1432[13:07:11] <jelly> I strongly advise against using testing unless user is prepared to do their own security.
• 1433[13:07:14] <blackflow> Stable ain't faring much better during the freeze either
• 1434[13:07:14] <oiaohm> jelly: not exactly either. I am running testing in a freeze and a lot of packages are still updated.
• 1435[13:07:31] <jelly> oiaohm: that's just luck
• 1436[13:07:32] <oiaohm> jelly: to match sid.
• 1437[13:07:41] <oiaohm> jelly: no that is normal freese process.
• 1438[13:07:57] <jelly> blackflow: stable does not have freezes, and the security team does their job
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• 1441[13:08:26] <blackflow> jelly: I'm not so sure about that. Last time (Stretch release) a rather critical vuln in Bind took three months to get fixed in Debian. Reason? the whole release thing.
• 1442[13:08:58] <blackflow> (esp. since ubuntu fixed it in a week and Bind version was the same)
• 1443[13:08:59] <jelly> blackflow: bug number?
• 1444[13:09:15] <oiaohm> Stable in debian has to have patches backported where testing the new version of package replaces it.
• 1445[13:09:38] <jelly> blackflow: but that kind of thing should not happen
• 1446[13:09:52] <oiaohm> jelly: backporting of patches is not always fast.
• 1447[13:10:00] *** Parts: crimastergogo (~crimaster@replaced-ip) ()
• 1448[13:10:08] <oiaohm> Lot of cases it faster to replace with never version.
• 1449[13:10:12] <blackflow> jelly: I don't remember now and ENOTIME to go hunt for it. But it was reported yes. I think it was about CVE-2017-3142
• 1450[13:10:40] <blackflow> it affected resolvers, not authoritative servers, but it was stil quite critical.... oh wait, it wasn't this CVE, it was a DOS-like vuln
• 1451[13:10:46] <oiaohm> I remember that bind one because testing got taht fix first.
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• 1453[13:11:00] <oiaohm> because of no backporting and just package replacement.
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• 1455[13:11:24] <oiaohm> Stable is a highly double sided sword.
• 1456[13:11:25] <blackflow> oiaohm: no, it took months until Debian got the fix
• 1457[13:11:32] <blackflow> I was here bitching about it even :)
• 1458[13:11:44] *** Parts: furrymcgee (~furrymcge@replaced-ip) ()
• 1459[13:11:53] <blackflow> (because Ubuntu had the fix and the versions were the same and the maintainers are the SAME people, so why didn't Debian pull that in)
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• 1462[13:13:28] <blackflow> neway, it's all in teh past now. point being, stable was affected by the release process.
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• 1464[13:14:05] <dadabidet> hello
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• 1467[13:14:23] <dadabidet> Im connected through ethernet and trying to make a hotspot with debian 9
• 1468[13:14:40] <dadabidet> I have some message, but my hotspot is not created, any idea?
• 1469[13:14:43] <azy> some software i want to use uses a newer version of glibc. how's best to update debian stretch to a version new enough?
• 1470[13:15:07] <ksk> azy: welcome to #debian. the anser is, Im afraid, "not".
• 1471[13:15:23] <ksk> as "all the things" are based on glibc, you cannot really replace it.
• 1472[13:15:36] <oiaohm> azy: the best way I have around need different glibc is flatpak it.
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• 1475[13:16:15] <oiaohm> azy: otherwise you need to update a fairly large percent of the system.
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• 1477[13:16:29] <dadabidet> I have the message "it is not possible to access the internet through wireless if your hotspot is active", but Im using ethernet... any idea?
• 1478[13:16:30] <ksk> or run a container with newer libc available.
• 1479[13:16:31] *** Joins: YokoBR (baceffcc@replaced-ip)
• 1480[13:16:40] <oiaohm> azy: flatpak if it desktop application or container it if it a service.
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• 1484[13:19:12] <blackflow> because flatpaks are not containers? #termpocalypse
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• 1487[13:21:31] <jelly> blackflow: I'm asking because issues like that are typically done slowly only if the bug affects an unusual not often used (and not default) config
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• 1491[13:22:49] <blackflow> jelly: iirc it was a DoS against Bind in resolver role, with malcrafted responses. No strange config was needed. But it's been two years and I don't remember all the details now
• 1492[13:23:00] <jelly> nod
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• 1494[13:23:19] <blackflow> (and bind in resolver role with malcrafted responses affecting it, isn't really news at eleven for Bind :) )
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• 1498[13:23:40] <jelly> they got better since bind 8 times
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• 1500[13:23:48] <blackflow> definitely.
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• 1502[13:24:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1575
• 1503[13:25:42] <YokoBR> hi there
• 1504[13:26:16] <Antioch> Is there a "simple" way to install a backport kernel onto an offline machine?
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• 1506[13:27:41] <YokoBR> I'm working on some software, and we have a package with about 8gb (because it has a single file with 8gb inside). But we are having some problems like lack of storage to create builds, and I was thiking if it wasn't a more clever option if we downloaded this file during installation, and so generating small deb files instead of big ones.
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• 1508[13:28:13] <YokoBR> like adobe did with flash-nonfree
• 1509[13:28:27] *** Joins: zege (~g.zehetne@139.178.125.26)
• 1510[13:28:37] <Wulf> YokoBR: sounds reasonable.
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• 1516[13:31:40] <YokoBR> Wulf: And I still have to keep it secure, so FTP is not a good option, right? Maybe I could use the repository itself, or is there a better option?
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• 1519[13:33:03] <Wulf> YokoBR: FTP is *never* a good option
• 1520[13:33:06] <FinalX> depends, if there's data in there that needs to be really secure, perhaps it shouldn't be in a package (configs, ssl certs etc should be added later/through different means imo)
• 1521[13:33:23] <Wulf> YokoBR: https, plus a digital signature e.g. using gpg
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• 1525[13:33:31] <FinalX> if you only need to verify authenticity, https or insecure channels with verifiable signatures might be an option
• 1526[13:34:07] <YokoBR> I already verify md5sum
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• 1529[13:34:46] <YokoBR> that's great, I like the https with signature option
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• 1531[13:35:35] <FinalX> plus if you host your own repository, it's already http(s), and you can probably toss that in some other subdir there
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• 1533[13:35:51] <blackflow> Antioch: you can bring in the .deb files from elsewhere via, say, an USB stick and apt install it locally
• 1534[13:35:58] <dadabidet> so... no idea how to set up a wifi hotspot with debian? wifi works btw...
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• 1536[13:36:12] <YokoBR> FinalX: yep, and it already have gpg verification
• 1537[13:36:14] <blackflow> dadabidet: I do it with hostapd
• 1538[13:36:32] <FinalX> YokoBR: though 8GB seems like a tremendous amount of data for just one package.. are you sure it's not better served with a data store of some kind, aside from the package?
• 1539[13:36:34] <ksk> dadabidet: how about googleing "setup linux internet connection sharing"? should be like 31337k articles about that, even one in the debian wiki iirc
• 1540[13:36:35] <blackflow> dadabidet: but yes, the hardware can't be both a hotspot and a wifi.... client? is that the term... at the same time
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• 1542[13:37:05] <ksk> oh, didnt read that. blackflow is right ofc, this will not work.
• 1543[13:37:07] <YokoBR> I see, yep, it maks no sense to keep the file on repo
• 1544[13:37:09] <FinalX> 8GB is like 20x the size of a base debian install
• 1545[13:37:27] <zege> dadabidet: look here: replaced-url
• 1546[13:37:46] <blackflow> FinalX: eh more like 8x
• 1547[13:37:46] <YokoBR> I'll try to get an https server for that, and use gpg to authenticate
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• 1549[13:38:02] <blackflow> I was quite surprised to find out WTH takes a gigabyte myself too.
• 1550[13:38:05] <dadabidet> thanks everyone... I just thought that in 2019 I could do that with some GUI interface...
• 1551[13:38:35] <blackflow> dadabidet: it's literally a few lines of the hostapd config file
• 1552[13:38:46] <ksk> dadabidet: If its really about using one adapter as "client" and "hotspot" its not about interfaces, but a technical no-go scenario rather.
• 1553[13:39:01] <YokoBR> thanks, Wulf and FinalX
• 1554[13:39:15] <blackflow> but hum, yeh, maybe not as simple once you consider you'd have to NAT, so you need to setup that as well... yeah, dunno if there's a GUI for that.
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• 1557[13:39:48] <zege> dadabidet: replaced-url
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• 1561[13:41:12] <dadabidet> zege: I did just that, but it doesnt work
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• 1563[13:42:08] <zege> dadabidet: What exactlx doesn't work?
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• 1565[13:42:37] <dadabidet> zege: I click "turn on" and nothing happens
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• 1569[13:43:34] <zege> dadabidet: Your wifi-card is on (hardware-switch, software-switch)?
• 1570[13:43:58] <dadabidet> zege: yes its on
• 1571[13:44:20] <dadabidet> I can connect to other networks, but Im disconnected from wifi, Im using ethernet
• 1572[13:45:11] <zege> dadabidet: did you turn it on in gnome-control-center or the shell menu
• 1573[13:45:12] <zege> ?
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• 1575[13:45:51] <dadabidet> both
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• 1578[13:46:46] <zege> dadabidet: when you turn it on in gnome-control-center did you get the info window asking if you really want?
• 1579[13:46:52] <blackflow> $32k question: is the hardware even capable of being a hotspot. not all are.
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• 1583[13:47:17] <dadabidet> zege: replaced-url
• 1584[13:47:33] *** Parts: agx (~agx@replaced-ip) ()
• 1585[13:47:46] <dadabidet> good question...
• 1586[13:47:57] <blackflow> dadabidet: yes.... AGAIN.... you can not use the same hardware for BOTH a hotspot and to connect to other wifi networks.
• 1587[13:47:57] <dadabidet> would be surprising that a wifi card could not...
• 1588[13:48:13] <dadabidet> AGAIN, IM USING ETHERNET!
• 1589[13:48:27] <zege> dadabidet: ok. thats what i ment.
• 1590[13:48:32] <blackflow> then why are you posting that image? did you click next?
• 1591[13:48:41] <dadabidet> Yes I did
• 1592[13:48:43] *** Quits: oish_ (~charlie@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
• 1593[13:48:45] <blackflow> and what happened?
• 1594[13:48:49] <FinalX> blackflow: base Debian install only takes a couple of hundred MB's, without desktop environments and kernel and such
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• 1596[13:48:59] <dadabidet> that popup pops up when I click the hotspot button
• 1597[13:49:06] <dadabidet> I click turn on and nothing happens
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• 1599[13:49:18] <blackflow> dadabidet: did you look into journal or logs to see what happened?
• 1600[13:49:22] <RainboW2> hello, need a hand on ipsec l2tp client if possible
• 1601[13:49:24] <dadabidet> no
• 1602[13:49:26] <zege> dadabidet: you should now see a visible network in the wifi settings. Network name should be your computers name.
• 1603[13:49:33] <blackflow> dadabidet: that's your first step in resolving this, then.
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• 1609[13:51:05] <diogenes_> dadabidet, try with: nm-connection-editor
• 1610[13:51:07] <dadabidet> I dont see that network
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• 1614[13:51:37] <zege> dadabidet: you could try run gnome-control-center from command line with --verbose flag. Gives you info. When you turn on the hotsopt you sould get lines like that: DEBUG: Refreshing hotspot labels to name: 'wk99.precisma.local', security key: '(null)', security: '(null)
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• 1619[13:53:11] <dadabidet> diogenes_: zege nm-connection-editor works
• 1620[13:53:19] <dadabidet> it solved my problem, thanks
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• 1622[13:53:27] <blackflow> dadabidet: what was it?
• 1623[13:53:29] <diogenes_> you're welcome
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• 1626[13:53:45] <RainboW2> anyoone can give me a hand on ipsec strongswan l2tp client on debian ?
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• 1628[13:54:06] <blackflow> RainboW2: not until you state your problem.
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• 1630[13:54:41] <RainboW2> have a server using l2tp/strongswan/ipsec, on other OS i can connect, on debian getting charon: 09[ENC] parsed IKE_AUTH response 1 [ N(AUTH_FAILED) ]
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• 1632[13:54:57] <ws2k3> i installed php7.2-fpm and php7.3-fpm from the sury repo, but im having some issues installing mongodb support i tryed apt-get install php7.3-mongodb which refered me to php-mongodb, but im not sure how i should enable it phpenmod mongodb gives me an error
• 1633[13:54:58] <RainboW2> i don t want to use network-manager-l2tp
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• 1635[13:55:43] <ksk> ws2k3: Im not sure what the sury repo is, but I doubt we support that in here. ask sury how to install php-mongodb (as It needs to be compatible with your php you alrady installed)
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• 1637[13:56:54] <FinalX> blackflow: 322MB, just checked, for the default LXD image of Debian amd64 stretch (and with ZFS' lz4 compression, that goes to 196MB)... so.. 322MB fits 25+ times in 8GB, and 196MB almost 42 times.. :P
• 1638[13:56:56] <blackflow> ws2k3: aside to what ksk just said, phpenmod is just sorting symlinks. take a look at available php modules dir (don't know which is it otoh)
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• 1641[13:57:52] <dadabidet> blackflow: good question... apparently the UI was not brought up using the hotspot button
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• 1643[13:58:05] <blackflow> FinalX: well I don't know. I use debootstrap to install servers, and I consistently see it at 1.2G
• 1644[13:58:07] <dadabidet> creating the connection with the manager directly fixed it
• 1645[13:58:34] <blackflow> dadabidet: ah, possibly just flaky gnome ui.
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• 1648[14:00:57] <dadabidet> diogenes_: zege: can I access this nm-connection-editor other than using the command line ?
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• 1652[14:01:39] <diogenes_> dadabidet, an all except gnome and cinnamon, they kinda still have to do work to make it behave properly.
• 1653[14:01:47] <diogenes_> but you can create a shortcut for it
• 1654[14:02:23] <diogenes_> s/an/on
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• 1656[14:06:18] <zege> dadabidet: create a .desktop file in ~/.local/share/applications then you can access is from gnome-shell or whatever you use.
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• 1658[14:06:39] <dadabidet> ok thanks ! :)
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• 1664[14:08:10] <zege> dadabidet: here you can see how the file should look like: replaced-url
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• 1667[14:10:20] <zege> diogenes_: in gnome 3.30 wifi hotspot works just perfect ;)
• 1668[14:10:58] <diogenes_> zege, could be but in any case it doesn't give you as many options as the nm-connection-editor
• 1669[14:11:30] <zege> diogenes_: Thats just the gnome way of life. Keep it simple.
• 1670[14:12:28] <blackflow> ugh :)
• 1671[14:12:37] <diogenes_> zege, to each his own :) i prefer to have more control over stuff.
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• 1701[14:35:29] <rafalcpp> how to upgrade Debian 8 to 9, in light of the apt exploit
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• 1704[14:37:24] <diogenes_> rafalcpp, first try to update the apt package
• 1705[14:37:30] <petn-randall> rafalcpp: Follow the instructions in the DSA, then dist-upgrade just like normal.
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• 1709[14:38:49] <rafalcpp> petn-randall: Im getting 302 error on security repo
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• 1712[14:39:55] <rafalcpp> is error 302 "IP found" causing this due to disabling http redirect? on security repo
• 1713[14:40:41] <rafalcpp> security.debian.org for Stretch, can I use some URL that does not require http redirect to work?
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• 1719[14:43:22] <themill> rafalcpp: how to do that was covered in the announcement btw
• 1720[14:43:44] <themill> (and you'd upgrade the packages in jessie first and then upgrade to stretch)
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• 1869[15:48:00] <uio> Hello. Would you recommend turning on a firewall? I just use Debian for personal computing. I've been reading a bit online, but I'm not quite sure what to think.
• 1870[15:48:23] <JeffJohnson> uio: is your PC in a private network behind a router?
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• 1872[15:48:31] <JeffJohnson> with nat?
• 1873[15:48:52] <greycat> For the vast majority of uses, the answer is "no".
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• 1875[15:49:35] <jelly> uio: if you ever put the machine on an untrusted network (eg. coffee bar wifi), it's a useful hardening step
• 1876[15:49:38] <greycat> Turn the question around: is there some specific *goal* you have in mind, that a firewall can help you accomplish?
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• 1878[15:49:56] <uio> JeffJohnson, Yeah, private Wifi that I share with a neighbour. But I often use it on other less secure networks.
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• 1880[15:50:04] <greycat> So it's a laptop?
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• 1882[15:50:34] <uio> greycat, I don't really undertand firewalls well, but some people seem to recommend them for better security.
• 1883[15:50:34] <nemo> uio: so if you enabled this local firewall, what would you be blocking?
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• 1885[15:51:19] <nemo> uio: traditionally windows used to have a LOT of services running and exposed to the world so firewall was a really good idea, it's maybe a bit less important if you know exactly what services you have running and remotely exposed
• 1886[15:51:25] <uio> nemo, Mmmm, not sure, I guess like jelly said, might be good for surfing at a café or a library.
• 1887[15:51:30] <JeffJohnson> uio: normally there is no need for it, you probably do not run any servers on your laptop, maybe SSH but if you are using autentication that is secure
• 1888[15:51:32] <nemo> uio: once upon a time X11 was a concern on linux, but that's not so common anymore
• 1889[15:51:50] <uio> greycat, Yep, a laptop.
• 1890[15:51:57] <uio> JeffJohnson, No servers!
• 1891[15:52:00] <nemo> uio: so. yeah. what services are you running that you are worried about?
• 1892[15:52:12] <nemo> uio: if you're not running any services, a firewall is a lot less useful ☺
• 1893[15:52:27] <JeffJohnson> uio: then there is no need (:
• 1894[15:52:33] <Antioch> Hi! I just installed deb9 from the netinstall image, but the kernel included didn't support my network device, so I selected "no network device" during install. After the fact I loaded up a new kernel with the drivers and booted off of it. lsmod shows that it's loaded (ixgbe), but I can't use any networking. For example, "ping 8.8.8.8" says "networ
• 1895[15:52:33] <Antioch> k is unreachable" - how can I fix this? I assume it's because the networking set of processes wasn't installed?
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• 1897[15:53:50] <nemo> uio: the only use a firewall might have if you are not running services is if you don't trust *LOCAL* code... and that's usually both more complex to setup and probably a larger problem in general ☺
• 1898[15:53:59] <petn-randall> Antioch: Did you configure the network yet? You can either use ifupdown or network-manager.
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• 1900[15:54:19] <uio> nemo, Hmmmm. I guess this would be a good example of a look inside a non-technical Debian-user's mind : I think security is important, I've heard that public wifi is not so secure, I've read that firewalls can help with security, I've read that Debian hasn't a firewall installed by default -----> conclusion I should install a firewal.
• 1901[15:54:31] <nemo> uio: like, maybe you should be running all your network accessible apps like firefox in separate isolated containers. but most of us aren't that ... cautious ..
• 1902[15:54:45] <uio> nemo, Okay.
• 1903[15:54:52] <uio> nemo, I see.
• 1904[15:54:53] <nemo> uio: public wifi is absolutely insecure. that's why https and ssh exist. don't trust the network. hell. don't trust your LAN
• 1905[15:54:56] <uio> JeffJohnson, Okay, thanks.
• 1906[15:55:01] <greycat> The most common case where a firewall is recommended is when you are setting up a router designed to protect an internal network (printers, Windows machine, tablets, etc.) from outsiders, and/or to protect the outside world from outgoing email spam generated by your internal network's compromised Windows machines.
• 1907[15:55:11] <nemo> uio: but... if you aren't running anything, there's nothing for them to connect in to ☺
• 1908[15:55:14] <Antioch> petn-randall: No, I haven't. It's not installed, but I'll try and get it loaded. Anything else I should install while I'm at it?
• 1909[15:55:33] <uio> nemo, Okay... to be honest I don't even undestand that...
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• 1912[15:55:52] <uio> I'm going to read about firewalls a bit.
• 1913[15:56:07] <nemo> uio: firewall stops people from starting a new conversation with your machine - a service. if your machine isn't running any services, there's nothing for them to talk to in the first place
• 1914[15:56:11] <uio> But I mean, in then end, it can't make anything worse, right?
• 1915[15:56:21] <uio> nemo, Okay, I see.
• 1916[15:56:23] <nemo> uio: they can also block stuff ON your machine from getting out, but most users don't want that
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• 1918[15:56:44] <nemo> uio: not very useful in a single user environment where that user tends to have full system privileges
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• 1921[15:57:16] <nemo> uio: and... even if you decide you want to add a service like... apache or ssh, odds are you added them and started them specifically to be able to connect from the outside, so they'd have to be whitelisted by a firewall ANYWAY ☺
• 1922[15:57:18] <uio> nemo, So, in the end, as was said earlier by someone, firewalls are more of a M$ thing.
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• 1924[15:57:36] <nemo> uio: yeah. 'cause windows tended traditionally to run a bunch of random network accessible stuff by default.
• 1925[15:57:56] <uio> Okay, cool.
• 1926[15:58:08] <uio> Well, thanks for helping the less linuxly gifted!
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• 1935[16:00:51] <ksk> firewalls are also a network thing. If you have like an advanced setup of linux machines providing $service you will most likely setup firwalling in between. for private use though its not really needed on could say.
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• 1940[16:01:47] <ksk> like, why should your externally reachable web-servers(proxies) be able to reach mysql-servers if there is no need? better to (also) deny that kind of connection on a network level.
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• 1946[16:02:25] <nemo> ksk: yeah. but pretty sure he's not a network administrator ☺
• 1947[16:02:34] <nemo> so was kinda focusing on the single privileged user laptop case
• 1948[16:02:53] <ksk> sure thing :)
• 1949[16:02:54] <Syndrom> ksk: like iptables and having an extra db server?
• 1950[16:02:56] <greycat> If the goal is simply to harden a single laptop, the recommendation is to remove all non-essential services, or restrict them to listening only on loopback/Unix domain sockets instead of the primary network interface.
• 1951[16:02:58] <nemo> and at that point if he's concerned about local outbound, he needs to start adding security containers around allll his network apps and most of us just don't care enough
• 1952[16:03:14] <nemo> (or care about performance of our games and browsers more ☺ )
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• 1956[16:03:42] <greycat> E.g. it's all right to have CUPS running, listening only to localhost, so you can print to network printers at home, but don't expose it to the public Wifi network.
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• 1960[16:04:03] <EdePopede> the restriction should be there right after install. i still don't like the idea to install $server and have it autostarted open to *:$port
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• 1963[16:05:35] <nemo> EdePopede: well. I think debian tends to do it based on typical user case? Like, people usually don't install apache just to run locally
• 1964[16:05:40] <nemo> or ssh
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• 1967[16:06:06] <nemo> EdePopede: but I guess if that policy bothers you, running a firewall is an easy fix
• 1968[16:06:09] <EdePopede> during the time i had an internal modem (or was it the isdn card later?) there was a 2nd pc, both connected to each using eth. so not a real issue on the other pc, but i still used that particular IP in the config
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• 1970[16:06:13] <nemo> personally since I expect the behaviour it doesn't bother me
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• 1973[16:06:49] <EdePopede> nemo: i wouldn't mind a short Q&A after installing, say, nginx
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• 1976[16:07:28] <nemo> EdePopede: hm... does debian have some sort of installation notes functionality for extra details after a non-interactive install? some other distros have that
• 1977[16:07:31] <nemo> never thought to look
• 1978[16:07:43] <ksk> as long as you dont put your private belongings to /var/replaced-url
• 1979[16:08:34] <nemo> ksk: yeah. the default apache / nginx / lighttpd is just serving a static file - only thing it is maybe doing is helping fingerprint you
• 1980[16:08:35] <EdePopede> one of the things i always liked about linux was separation of actions. even with things like formatting a floppy. first fdformat and then mkfs. or the flexibility in usage of all kinds of obscure filesystems.
• 1981[16:09:09] <noodlepie> replaced-url
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• 1987[16:10:00] <EdePopede> ksk: i still may run into a 0day. remember the traversal bug in MS's webserver? (not IIS iirc, the one that came with the HOME versions of their OS)
• 1988[16:10:48] <EdePopede> i mean, chances are like... 0, but still. would also be a nice move to set up things like this as default.
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• 1991[16:11:34] <nemo> EdePopede: guess that could be some generic /etc/apt config option maybe
• 1992[16:11:49] <nemo> "never start network services on install, bind to localhost by default"
• 1993[16:11:59] <EdePopede> nemo, i should have a look into it
• 1994[16:12:00] <nemo> EdePopede: bet most people wouldn't care for it tho
• 1995[16:12:08] <nemo> EdePopede: I doubt it actually exists but might ba decent idae
• 1996[16:12:29] <nemo> EdePopede: but yeah, if it bothers you, a firewall makes sense then
• 1997[16:12:31] <EdePopede> most people are trained to download some exe from some website and let IE autoexecute the installer ;)
• 1998[16:13:21] <nemo> but, eh, I bet most people install a service on their machine like once or twice... more work to setup the firewall than to remember to move the service to localhost if that's what you want ☺
• 1999[16:13:28] <noodlepie> Anyone
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• 2001[16:13:40] <noodlepie> ?
• 2002[16:14:12] <ksk> noodlepie: what don't you understand from the error message? you are either a) missing start-stop-deamon (which indicates a rather broken debian system) b) removed /sbin from PATH
• 2003[16:14:51] <greycat> ksk: I didn't read what he did, but your response makes it sound like "I am on buster and I used su and I am not aware of buster's changes to su".
• 2004[16:14:53] <ksk> noodlepie: googleing the errormessage shows for example this: replaced-url
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• 2006[16:15:11] <noodlepie> thanks, I'll take a look!
• 2007[16:15:35] <ksk> oh, so buster keeps the "old env" so to say if you simply invoke su? good to know for the future :)
• 2008[16:15:42] <EdePopede> i used suse for some time (i guess before there was opensuse) and they had an interface to control services. may have been ncurses. unlike debian they use(d) the runlevels for different purposes (single > text only > network > full X) so there was a table where you could select in which runlevels to run which service.
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• 2014[16:18:02] <greycat> ksk: yes, precisely.
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• 2030[16:22:33] <ksk> EdePopede: runlevels are now "systemd targets" kind of, which only loosly map to runlevels as far as I understand.
• 2031[16:23:08] <ksk> the Idea of having a config switch to make all installed daemons "listen localhost" only does not sound bad though.
• 2032[16:23:13] <greycat> That's my understanding as well -- they work like run levels only when booting into one. You can't switch among them after booting.
• 2033[16:23:35] <noodlepie> I get this now -- thtps://paste.pound-python.org/show/PTHXFESFQfBfLhwHwQr7/
• 2034[16:24:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1590
• 2035[16:24:19] <EdePopede> switching wasn't even encouraged in the past iirc due to security concerns. restarted binaries may have been compromised.
• 2036[16:24:58] <ws2k3> JeffJohnson it did ask less, but it still asked me if i wanted to keep the orginal sysctl.conf
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• 2040[16:25:51] <ksk> noodlepie: so you decided for the worst of the possible options (broken dpkg/libc install) - do you actually have reason to think its this way?
• 2041[16:26:15] <iovec> EdePopede: switching just doesn't work: isolate will stop anything that is not a dependency (bye bye socket/path/timer activated stuff) or re-run idempotent oneshots that are only meant to run once every boot (alsa-restore, resetting your volume)
• 2042[16:26:21] <ksk> (because fixing this will be a _lot_ more work compared to setting $PATH correcly, or even just invoke 'su' correctly)
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• 2044[16:26:39] <noodlepie> I haven't changed my path since installing
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• 2046[16:27:13] <ksk> noodlepie: soo, which debian release do you run?
• 2047[16:27:18] <noodlepie> Stable
• 2048[16:27:30] <ksk> what does "echo $PATH" say?
• 2049[16:27:34] *** Quits: Antioch (afb105d3@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
• 2050[16:27:52] <ksk> (as its only one line, it should be fine to paste in here)
• 2051[16:27:53] <EdePopede> iovec: now with systemd? i still have to find the time to play with it :D
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• 2055[16:28:33] <noodlepie> # echo $PATH
• 2056[16:28:39] <noodlepie> -- /usr/local/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/sbin /usr/bin /sbin /bin
• 2057[16:29:28] <ksk> noodlepie: did you just put these "--" into path, or is that actually in it?
• 2058[16:29:37] <noodlepie> yep
• 2059[16:29:49] <ksk> normally the line would start with "/some/path" and should not start with -- imho.
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• 2062[16:30:18] <noodlepie> "/usr/local/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/sbin /usr/bin /sbin /bin" -- without quotes!
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• 2065[16:30:53] <ksk> noodlepie: talking about computers you should really describe what you see, and not like "it looks kind of like this"..
• 2066[16:31:01] <iovec> EdePopede: the funny thing is, switching to the running runlevel mapped target will stop units
• 2067[16:31:07] <iovec> so it is not a NOOP
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• 2069[16:31:44] <ksk> noodlepie: my PATH does look like this: "/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin" -- are you missing the ":"?
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• 2071[16:32:43] <greycat> Maybe he has somehow managed to set IFS=: in his shell.
• 2072[16:32:57] <greycat> god only KNOWS what kind of insane results you can get with a mangled IFS
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• 2075[16:33:20] <EdePopede> iovec: maybe it is supposed to repair the runlevel if things get broken. like services dying and not returning and such
• 2076[16:33:22] <greycat> wooledg:~$ IFS=:
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• 2078[16:33:22] <greycat> wooledg:~$ echo $PATH
• 2079[16:33:22] <greycat> /home/wooledg/bin /usr/local/bin /usr/bin /bin /usr/local/games /usr/games
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• 2081[16:33:35] <noodlepie> I'm using the fish shell! Different PATH syntax output!
• 2082[16:33:40] <greycat> (do NOT do this at home ... I launched a separate bash shell for that, and then exited it afterward)
• 2083[16:33:48] <greycat> ... fuck.
• 2084[16:34:03] <ksk> noodlepie: than I have to say I dont know. does not look very POSIX to me :P
• 2085[16:34:14] <noodlepie> ok thanx anyway
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• 2087[16:34:34] <greycat> noodlepie: If you choose to use an alternative shell, you are expected to be the leading expert in that shell and to take FULL responsibility for it. And if anything breaks, don't report it to us unless you can duplicate it in a standard environment.
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• 2091[16:35:13] <greycat> I would certainly *never* change root's shell to fish, for example.
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• 2093[16:35:38] <ksk> if you think this PATH is correct (which I cannot tell this way), you would then check if you have "/sbin/start-stop-daemon". If you have it rather suggest that something is wrong with $PATH
• 2094[16:35:55] <ksk> if you dont have it theres something really wrong with your debian, and Id suggest restoring from backups or a reinstall.
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• 2096[16:36:33] <ksk> (the hackish approach would be to copy over *the right* files to the *right places* to make it work again, but that soundls like a lot of work possibly)
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• 2103[16:38:21] <noodlepie> Which package is start-stop-daemon in? I should prabably install it!
• 2104[16:38:56] <greycat> ,file start-stop-daemon
• 2105[16:39:01] <judd> Search for start-stop-daemon in stretch/amd64: dpkg: sbin/start-stop-daemon; ltsp-server: usr/share/ltsp/scripts/start-stop-daemon
• 2106[16:39:16] <greycat> It's in "dpkg". You have it, or your system is completely broken.
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• 2108[16:39:54] <ksk> and as dpkg does not seem to run without - good look trying to install dpkg using dpkg ;)
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• 2110[16:40:36] <greycat> I'
• 2111[16:40:48] <greycat> I'd bet you can reinstall dpkg without having start-stop-daemon, if you're careful.
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• 2113[16:41:03] <greycat> But if my bet is incorrect, then extract it manually.
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• 2125[16:43:41] <noodlepie> [sda] tag#22 FAILED Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE in dmesg!
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• 2128[16:43:59] <noodlepie> blk_update_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 591360489
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• 2145[16:47:32] <PaddyF> by default der is no mail daemon installed anymore, right?
• 2146[16:47:39] <PaddyF> s/der/there/
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• 2152[16:50:44] <petn-randall> PaddyF: I think it still depends on what you select with the installer.
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• 2205[17:15:06] <yuradoc> hello. i made some manipulation with 'su', 'sudo', 'runuser' I've got that my terminals run starting 'hlkali#', title contains 'Terminal -', desktop default background image disappeared
• 2206[17:15:14] <yuradoc> can't reset that bahavior
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• 2208[17:15:31] <yuradoc> behavior
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• 2210[17:15:45] <yuradoc> what's wrong?
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• 2212[17:16:01] <ksk> yuradoc: not sure. what is your problem? I did not really get that from your text.
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• 2214[17:16:32] <yuradoc> i made some manipulations with 'su', 'sudo', 'runuser'
• 2215[17:16:47] <ksk> yes, I got that part ;)
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• 2218[17:17:14] <yuradoc> the problem that something changed related my users
• 2219[17:17:39] <yuradoc> as I understand Kali Linux uses root as default
• 2220[17:18:17] <yuradoc> but I'm badly understand what I have now
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• 2223[17:19:02] <yuradoc> terminal worked before with root user
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• 2225[17:19:08] <yuradoc> as default
• 2226[17:19:33] <jelly> if you actually have kali installed, you'll probably want to ask about their specific changes in
• 2227[17:19:36] <jelly> !kali
• 2228[17:19:36] <dpkg> Kali Linux (replaced-url
• 2229[17:19:53] <yuradoc> I'm logged in the system as 'hacker' user that is default one
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• 2231[17:20:04] <greycat> "runuser"?? ... oh, runuser is the one that says "you should use setpriv" instead, but Debian split setpriv out into a separate package, but left runuser in util-linux.
• 2232[17:20:10] <yuradoc> thanks jelly i ask them too
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• 2235[17:21:04] <yuradoc> i need somehow revert root and hacker user to default
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• 2237[17:21:27] <yuradoc> i thought i change those settings only for one session
• 2238[17:21:49] <jelly> if you have debian however, then this is the right place to ask
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• 2240[17:22:04] <yuradoc> it's debian based
• 2241[17:22:27] <yuradoc> my zsh settings had some theme - it's disappeared
• 2242[17:23:08] <ksk> yuradoc: as the bot pointed out, kali is _not_ supported in here.
• 2243[17:23:09] <yuradoc> my xfce desktop wallet dissapeared too
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• 2245[17:23:22] <ksk> but I can tell you, that in linux there is no "please turn back the changes I just did"-button.
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• 2248[17:24:06] <yuradoc> the problem with linux that it's hard to figure out after something goes wrong
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• 2250[17:24:37] <yuradoc> i'm user with 10 years in linux and i'm badly understand it yet
• 2251[17:26:21] <jelly> me too, except 20 years
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• 2330[18:06:57] <noodlepie> Can someone please send me the file /sbin/start-stop-daemon in Debian Stable please - I can't use apt without it!
• 2331[18:07:02] <noodlepie> Dunno where it went
• 2332[18:07:14] <greycat> Download a dpkg .deb and extract it yourself.
• 2333[18:07:21] <noodlepie> ok
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• 2339[18:09:34] <jelly> judd: file sbin/start-stop-daemon
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• 2341[18:09:37] <judd> Search for sbin/start-stop-daemon in stretch/amd64: dpkg: sbin/start-stop-daemon
• 2342[18:09:54] <jelly> oh it's literally in the "dpkg" package
• 2343[18:10:11] <greycat> already did all that
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• 2345[18:11:07] <jelly> can I send them a lenny (32bit) sparc exectuable, tho
• 2346[18:11:11] <jelly> can I
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• 2352[18:14:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1585
• 2353[18:14:21] <joepublic> What are the chances that that file is actually missing, as opposed to there being some problem with environment or PATH...
• 2354[18:14:45] <jelly> ls -ld /sbin/start-stop-daemon can easily confirm that
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• 2359[18:15:29] <GumShoe> in so many linux installs I just uncomment a couple lines in .bashrc and I've got acceptable colors. Where are the default colors that export LS_OPTIONS='--color=auto' uses? Asking for a friend that uses wsl
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• 2362[18:15:52] <TNTCTNT> if there a away to find out if there is someone tried to log to machine through ssh and failed ?
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• 2365[18:17:24] <greycat> usually it would be logged in /var/log/auth.log
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• 2372[18:20:27] <__m4ch1n3__> hey can i disable mask rsync.service? why is it running by default? timesync?
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• 2374[18:21:44] <jelly> GumShoe: hardcoded., compiled defaults in "dircolors" command?
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• 2380[18:24:16] <jelly> __m4ch1n3__: rsync has nothing to do with time. ConditionPathExists=/etc/rsyncd.conf will make it just die unless you have a config file in place.
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• 2382[18:25:26] <ksk> there also is "RSYNC_ENABLE=false" in /etc/defaults/rsync, which would probably make it stop itself after it was invoked via some service manager (systemd)
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• 2388[18:26:39] <__m4ch1n3__> so basicly if i dont use rsync i can disable it?
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• 2391[18:27:12] <__m4ch1n3__> or is it used for any core system stuff
• 2392[18:27:46] <jelly> this is just for a rsync server over rsync protocol. You can still use rsync (over ssh or locally) without having the service active.
• 2393[18:27:59] <ksk> yes you can, and no its not, depending on what you say is "core". An enabled rsyncd is not part of a "base" debian install.
• 2394[18:28:32] <jelly> __m4ch1n3__: I'm _guessing_ it's enabled by default because that's how it was set up before systemd.
• 2395[18:28:45] <__m4ch1n3__> would lke to get rid of everything i dont need to run openbox-session xorg nvidia-prep. driver
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• 2398[18:29:34] <__m4ch1n3__> and vendor-glx
• 2399[18:29:41] <jelly> __m4ch1n3__: masking it out will probably make you system boot a fraction of a milisecond faster
• 2400[18:29:53] <ksk> yeah, the service itself is enabled on my box here, too. but the setting in /etc/defaults will make it stop just after startup
• 2401[18:30:27] <jelly> ksk: those are not read any more I think
• 2402[18:30:31] <GumShoe> Thanks @jelly guess I'll live with it for now it's actually me in wsl trying to write some code and finding live greein on libght grey just about impossible to see when ls -l .... ;-)
• 2403[18:30:45] <boeckwurst> /j #virtualization
• 2404[18:31:29] <jelly> GumShoe so it's you and greycat that still use a light terminal background.
• 2405[18:31:29] <boeckwurst> poop
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• 2409[18:32:15] <boeckwurst> anyone knows whether KSM conflicts with ASLR? I mean does it work even if ASLR is enabled?
• 2410[18:32:16] <jelly> hypothesis: people matching g* like bright terminals.
• 2411[18:32:22] <GumShoe> I don't mind the light grey background so much... how do you read lime green on it?
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• 2413[18:33:13] <joepublic> The natural human instinct to despise light-colored terminals can be suppressed, it seems, but only sporadically
• 2414[18:34:14] <jelly> GumShoe: you probably reconfigure the terminal so that any of the default 16 colors are readable (maybe use the solarized light palette variation?)
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• 2416[18:35:19] <greycat> I tried pretty hard to find a substitute for yellow which would make apt's progress output readable, but I never managed it.
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• 2418[18:35:33] <greycat> My solution was "just use apt-get instead".
• 2419[18:35:43] <jelly> GumShoe: replaced-url
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• 2421[18:37:06] <jelly> what are you using as background, grey80? or gray80?
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• 2425[18:39:12] <ksk> jelly: ah, okay. thanks for the hint.
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• 2469[19:02:18] <rafalcpp> how to compress foo.tar into foo.tar.gz ?
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• 2471[19:02:26] <rafalcpp> as usuall manuall is useless
• 2472[19:03:06] <greycat> gzip foo.tar
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• 2475[19:03:28] <rafalcpp> gzip -5 foo.tar just sits there not compressing anything
• 2476[19:03:38] <greycat> Lies.
• 2477[19:04:11] <rafalcpp> oh now it works
• 2478[19:04:34] <rafalcpp> as most man pages, it needs an "usage". it has an "advanced usage" section but as always geeks forget the most important part
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• 2480[19:05:26] <rafalcpp> paragrph on how to use tapes (surprisingly nothing about punch cards) but not example of how to use it in most simple way
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• 2486[19:06:26] <ksk> see SYNOPSIS right on top of the manpage..
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• 2488[19:07:31] <rafalcpp> ksk: synopis is not an example. "gzip foo.txt" is
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• 2490[19:08:15] <jelly> rafalcpp: please file a bug report with amended documentation.
• 2491[19:08:17] <rafalcpp> 90% of linux users do not know what these [ ] things mean and it is a miracle if they at all open man
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• 2503[19:12:08] <EdePopede> surprisingly there also is `man man` explaining how to interpret a manpage. and using the manual system is something people usually do with their IKEA TV.
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• 2505[19:12:30] <GNU\colossus> man, I hate people.
• 2506[19:12:36] <n4dir> and the ones who can't be bothered will find such answers easily with a web-browser. I fail to see the problem
• 2507[19:12:54] <n4dir> or asking in IRC, which has worked too, duh.
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• 2510[19:14:06] * EdePopede didn't have a flatrate during the days of the first installation. it was normal to go with the documentation found on the disks.
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• 2514[19:15:14] <rafalcpp> n4dir: I tried frist two links, but they were not helpful, they recommended to use tar -z
• 2515[19:15:15] <EdePopede> and 101 books. in print form back then, today maybe on the tablet.
• 2516[19:16:10] <greycat> The "regular usage" of gzip is spelled out pretty plainly up front. You simply didn't read it.
• 2517[19:16:31] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: tape is still used pretty widely
• 2518[19:16:57] <rafalcpp> greycat: the point of example is to copy/paste it and skip reading
• 2519[19:17:02] <SerajewelKS> not sure why you'd complain about the tar manpage talking about how to do something that's still done
• 2520[19:17:17] <EdePopede> -a looks like a nice option
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• 2522[19:17:42] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: no that's not the point of an example at all
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• 2524[19:17:54] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: most obvious usage should be instant copy/paste from man page, not reading about advance uses
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• 2527[19:18:29] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: the purpose of the man page is to teach you about the command, not give you precisely-tailored commands that you can paste
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• 2530[19:19:00] <SerajewelKS> so far everything you've said about the purpose of documentation is wrong
• 2531[19:19:09] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: but if 90% of uses of a program are 1 or 2 commands then it could be just written
• 2532[19:19:35] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: maybe your views on documentation as some academic book is why regular users basically never use it
• 2533[19:19:46] * greycat skips reading rafalcpp
• 2534[19:20:02] <rafalcpp> greycat: Add "gunzip foo.txt"
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• 2536[19:20:10] <rafalcpp> ^-- now that was an easy example allowing to skip the rest ;)
• 2537[19:20:24] <SerajewelKS> my views are as a system administrator for decades who use these commands on a regular basis and would like to know my tools
• 2538[19:20:25] <rafalcpp> * gzip
• 2539[19:20:34] <SerajewelKS> so no, not academic
• 2540[19:21:05] <SerajewelKS> if you're not interested in learning your tools then go use windows or something
• 2541[19:21:15] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: the problem with "ready to c&p" is that the users relying on it *never* may understand how a command works. or how to read the synopsis. and then they'll rely on examples for *every* command they plan to use
• 2542[19:21:16] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: exactly, mine are as a normal user who doesnt care at all, if he doesn't see a sollution by spending 3 seconds in man page he will bother someone, like IT department. or irc ;)
• 2543[19:21:43] <rafalcpp> EdePopede: that is the goal, so that users never need to. why do you think they need?
• 2544[19:21:53] <SerajewelKS> if you don't read then you are going to compy a command without looking at it and they're going to fuck things up worse
• 2545[19:22:23] <SerajewelKS> if it's a normal user then why is he at the terminal running commands he doesn't understand
• 2546[19:22:24] <rafalcpp> well not for rm -rf / or mkfs... but for normal ones
• 2547[19:22:35] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: first of all because they are new to that whole "lunix"(sic) thing in general
• 2548[19:22:42] <SerajewelKS> why isn't he in a desktop environment with GUI tools to do this
• 2549[19:22:54] <EdePopede> and later because they didn't learn how to read the manpage (and similar docs)
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• 2552[19:23:29] <EdePopede> and even if they don't use a particular command (or some esoteric option) in month or even years, there's still the manpage
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• 2557[19:24:18] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: not everything and every command is in GUI
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• 2559[19:24:30] <rafalcpp> (actually package is, but others
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• 2561[19:24:48] <EdePopede> not sure wich manpage it was, but one mentions on the software it relates to in the BUGS section "it has far too many options". may be bash. or tar. or cpio. or ....
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• 2564[19:25:23] <rafalcpp> EdePopede: I can show you on a better example. are you a c/c++ devel perhaps?
• 2565[19:25:24] <SerajewelKS> if your users are going to use the terminal they should learn the commands, full stop. if they don't want to learn them they should use a GUI tool to do so. this concept that users should be able to do things without learning is going to get you into MORE trouble.
• 2566[19:25:44] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: no, but go on (and think of !paste just for the case ;))
• 2567[19:25:54] <jelly> EdePopede, rafalcpp: there is a rare kind of user that asks "why does it work this way" even if you feed them the answer (or guide them most of the way there)
• 2568[19:26:22] <rafalcpp> EdePopede: excellent. so you have foo.cpp file. "man gcc" and tell me when, only from man, you know how to make a binary executable of that foo.cpp . it is the most simple program, no flags, no libraries no no thing needed
• 2569[19:26:24] <EdePopede> jelly: curious users, a nice species :)
• 2570[19:26:29] <rafalcpp> (or man g++)
• 2571[19:26:29] <phazon> the '--help' convention alleviates the 'manual' and (usually) provides concise, clear example on the first line of output
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• 2573[19:26:47] <jelly> #NotAllUsers
• 2574[19:27:07] <SerajewelKS> phazon: except when you have to do -h or -? instead :)
• 2575[19:27:26] <phazon> SerajewelKS: was just about to mention that =)
• 2576[19:27:37] <greycat> Wanna bet mister cpp didn't try ANY of those?
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• 2578[19:28:03] <jelly> rafalcpp: "man gcc" is not reference GCC documentation. You want to install gcc-doc instead (which sadly Debian does not ship)
• 2579[19:28:08] <rafalcpp> greycat: --help to gzip doesn't contain an example neither
• 2580[19:28:09] <__m4ch1n3__> i would see gcc as one part of c++ knowledge, there is an package which installs a full c/c++ code guide as html
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• 2586[19:29:25] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: "For example, the -c option says not to run the linker. Then the output consists of object files output by the assembler."
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• 2588[19:29:44] <jrtc27> jelly: Debian does ship it, just in non-free due to GFDL invariant sections
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• 2591[19:30:00] <rafalcpp> EdePopede: well it was "g++ foo.cpp", that covers like 70% of users. we can add 2nd line telling how to build 2-file program, and 3rd about -lsomelib and we just avoided like 95% of questions from people who need to use quickly GCC, but are not developers
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• 2594[19:30:32] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: the GCC documentation covers that i'm pretty sure
• 2595[19:30:42] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: so you think users start developing programs in C(++) and don't care about reading?
• 2596[19:30:47] <rafalcpp> theses line on top of man would make it actually usefull for people who need to /quickly/ just do a thing and be on their way
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• 2598[19:31:03] <jrtc27> if they want to know how to use the unix compiler driver, they should just look at posix, that defines the basics for c99 replaced-url
• 2599[19:31:04] <rafalcpp> EdePopede: yes, and Ive seen it always all the time
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• 2602[19:31:24] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: if you need the manpage for such a basic task then cancel the course or return the book
• 2603[19:31:29] <jelly> rafalcpp: however if you manage to SOMEHOW install glibc-doc and gcc-doc, you have a chance or reading a chapter like "* G++ and GCC:: You can compile C or C++ programs.
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• 2606[19:32:12] <rafalcpp> jelly: is that easier for user then heaving "g++ foo.cpp" on top of manpage?
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• 2608[19:32:26] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: manpages don't replace tutorials at such a level. and i don't know how someone would want to develop in C without any kind of tutorial.
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• 2610[19:32:27] <jelly> rafalcpp: GNU people do not write man pages.
• 2611[19:32:34] <rafalcpp> btw quick example doesn't preclude reading rest of it you know
• 2612[19:32:42] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: thankfully, documentation authors have better things to do than cater to low-effort users
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• 2614[19:32:55] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: yeap, which is why linux stays niche
• 2615[19:32:59] <jelly> rafalcpp: and their ACTUAL docs are nice.
• 2616[19:33:03] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: i'm okay with this
• 2617[19:33:04] <rafalcpp> (among few other things)
• 2618[19:33:31] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: niche, and the rest is occupied by what?
• 2619[19:33:31] <joepublic> linux is the most used operating system kernel on the planet, i dunno what you two are on about
• 2620[19:33:44] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: im not ok with not one carying about desktop linux, and only google forcing it's walled garden on everyone
• 2621[19:33:46] <jelly> rafalcpp: but Debian won't point you directly to gcc-doc
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• 2623[19:34:10] <ksk> and, give AMD and steam some years, even your shiny games will run on linux in the future ;)
• 2624[19:34:12] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: desktop linux users by and large are not using the terminal, so that take doesn't even make sense
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• 2627[19:34:55] <__m4ch1n3__> ksk, some already do, csgo btw turned free2play and provides native linux client
• 2628[19:35:00] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: It's considered good practice to encourage people to learn what commands actually do rather than just spopn feed cut & paste answers.
• 2629[19:35:01] <rafalcpp> SerajewelKS: use case of doing small things in terminal might not be large, but there are many tasks that are not GUI'fied or just people using terminal, or using ssh
• 2630[19:35:06] <jelly> jrtc27: non-free is emphatically not part of Debian.
• 2631[19:35:15] <ksk> also a kind of pointless argument if you ask me. manpages are like technical documentation, if you dont want to get technical buy a product "as-is" and be happy with it.
• 2632[19:35:18] <greycat> I'm amazed how much effort everyone's wasting on this person who admitted explicitly that he has no interest in learning anything.
• 2633[19:35:21] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: People who don't want to read and learn should be using some other OS.
• 2634[19:35:57] <rafalcpp> jhutchins_wk: that is why everyone is on windows or android. It doesn't have to be that way
• 2635[19:35:58] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: the two classes of users who want to use the terminal and don't have different needs. for the users who don't want to use the terminal, the proper fix is to give them GUI tools not make the CLI documentation cater to them.
• 2636[19:36:01] <jelly> greycat: well there are no actual support questions are there. "a little offtopic"
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• 2639[19:36:25] <rafalcpp> maybe if desktop pc linux wouldnt be ~2% then we would have amazing things, like printers+scanners that 100% work out of the box on debian etc :)
• 2640[19:36:31] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: There's no reason it shouldn't be that way. Linux is not a least-common-denominator OS, and it shouldn't try to be.
• 2641[19:36:40] <phazon> 2019 will surely be Year of The Linux Desktop™
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• 2644[19:37:00] <rafalcpp> jhutchins_wk: how being more user friendly reduces quality of linux, or something?
• 2645[19:37:11] <joepublic> why would linux have a desktop? it's a kernel. seems a poor fit.
• 2646[19:37:12] <EdePopede> jelly: kind of meta support ;)
• 2647[19:37:14] <ksk> lol, printers working out of the box. have you worked at a company which has "computers" and "printers"? nothing as horrible as printers, does not have to do anything with linux if you ask me :>
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• 2649[19:37:23] <jelly> phazon: the desktop will die before there's a Year of Linux on Desktop. Oh wait, that happened already.
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• 2651[19:37:31] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: More user friendly at the expense of flexibility and power is useless.
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• 2653[19:37:42] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: There are already solutions for those people.
• 2654[19:37:50] *** Joins: sydney_untangle (~sydney@replaced-ip)
• 2655[19:38:00] <rafalcpp> jhutchins_wk: how adding example line on top of some man pages results in linux distro being les flexible or less powerfull?
• 2656[19:38:15] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: step 1: don't buy GDI hardware (if that's still a thing)
• 2657[19:38:22] <rafalcpp> man pages are nice, but they need nice examples. easy ones.
• 2658[19:38:35] <jelly> rafalcpp: so write them.
• 2659[19:38:39] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: You are welcome to contribute to any project's documentation.
• 2660[19:38:43] <rafalcpp> ok
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• 2662[19:39:08] <sveta> A package has a bug. If it's not yet fixed, the user will need to get latest version from git from the upstream. The address of that is normally not in the package metadata however. Is this correct?
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• 2665[19:39:24] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: Without question there are lousy man pages out there that spin off into esoteric theory rather than telling you how to use the command.
• 2666[19:39:38] <greycat> sveta: or the user could *wait*. What package, what bug? Is it a security bug? If so, the wait probably will not be long.
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• 2668[19:39:51] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: There are man pages that are nothing more than the skeletal template, with no actual information.
• 2669[19:39:57] <jelly> sveta: upstream development might not have it fixed either
• 2670[19:40:06] *** Quits: kirk781 (~kirk781@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
• 2671[19:40:23] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: There are also manpages that will not only tell you how to use the command, but help you understand the command's place in the universe of computing.
• 2672[19:40:26] <sveta> greycat: I'm asking in general. I sometimes see bugs and sometimes report them, but haven't fixed them before. I am trying to figure out where to get the latest sources - look it up on the web? If apt had a git url stored for the package then it would be easier.
• 2673[19:40:28] <EdePopede> rafalcpp: `man man` again. has a section named EXAMPLES. as some other manpages do. but it is still better to learn to understand the SYNOPSIS section.
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• 2675[19:40:32] <jhutchins_wk> rafalcpp: They're written by humans.
• 2676[19:40:42] <SerajewelKS> rafalcpp: note that we are not saying examples are bad. the mentality of "i'm going to copy and paste the first thing i see and not learn how this command works" is bad.
• 2677[19:40:44] <greycat> sveta: and I answered in general. Now, care to be specific?
• 2678[19:41:01] <sveta> greycat: it is not a security bug. What other information do you need?
• 2679[19:41:02] *** Parts: diogenes_ (~diogenes_@replaced-ip) ()
• 2680[19:41:06] <__m4ch1n3__> so true, i trie always first search with "site:debian.org <pattern>" to avoid low quality information
• 2681[19:41:35] <joepublic> Next on "#Debian Live": greycat plays 20 questions
• 2682[19:41:44] <jelly> sveta: tracker.debian.org/packagename is a good place to find links to upstream resources
• 2683[19:41:49] <joepublic> is it a fish? does it have leaves?
• 2684[19:42:05] <joepublic> has it ever aspired to elected office?
• 2685[19:42:07] <greycat> sveta: If the user is on stable, and the bug is neither security-oriented nor super-high-priority, it will probably not be fixed in stable. Then, then user gets to *choose* how to deal with this. It could be "do nothing, ignore". Or "remove the package". Or "upgrade to testing". Or "switch to FreeBSD". Or "download & build the upstream".
• 2686[19:42:21] <sveta> greycat: if you want a specific package, check 'gnumail.app', it has a source at replaced-url
• 2687[19:42:21] <jhutchins_wk> sveta: See above reference to documentation: The synopsis is written by humans, sometimes they don't think to include the upstream links. Web searchc is your best next try.
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• 2689[19:42:47] <greycat> gnustep? wow, sounds like something tarzeau would have used 15 years ago.
• 2690[19:43:00] <jelly> sveta: some, but not all packages have relevant metadata linking to upstream sources
• 2691[19:43:18] <sveta> greycat: I am just checking what help debian offers for the "download & build the upstream" step.
• 2692[19:43:28] <jhutchins_wk> Sometimes the only thing out there is a git repo with no readme.
• 2693[19:43:32] <sveta> greycat: if it kept note of the git url of the upstream, that would be helpful.
• 2694[19:43:39] <greycat> The copyright file is supposed to tell where upstream was at some point in the recent past, but sometimes that's useless (i.e. it points to a Debian mirror that may or may not even exist any more).
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• 2697[19:43:55] <sveta> greycat: a debian mirror is not upstream.
• 2698[19:44:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1585
• 2699[19:44:05] <jhutchins_wk> sveta: If upstream included links to the development project in the code, that would be ideal.
• 2700[19:44:25] <sveta> greycat: if I want the debian package source, I get the source from apt - that part is easy. Getting the source code of latest git (or equivalent) is another story.
• 2701[19:44:48] <jhutchins_wk> sveta: 'Twas ever thus.
• 2702[19:44:53] <sveta> jhutchins_wk: thank you. Is there a standard for the format in which the links should be included, for them to be possible to retrieve programmatically?
• 2703[19:45:01] <EdePopede> jhutchins_wk: "don't think to include" could be easily be solved by following a pattern/form. just look at youtube-dl's bug reporting system, even users are supposed to to this between lunch and walking the dog. so it should not be a problem for somebody fiddling around with documentation.
• 2704[19:45:14] <greycat> ruby/copyright:Source: replaced-url
• 2705[19:45:20] <greycat> ucf/copyright:Source: git://anonscm.debian.org/users/srivasta/debian/ucf.git
• 2706[19:45:24] <jhutchins_wk> sveta: The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
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• 2708[19:45:39] <jhutchins_wk> sveta: There are conventions. There is no enforcement.
• 2709[19:45:50] <sveta> ok, thank you, greycat and jhutchins_wk
• 2710[19:46:00] <sveta> jelly: thanks, checking
• 2711[19:46:10] <jhutchins_wk> EdePopede: Have you seen packages where the form is included, but not filled out? I have.
• 2712[19:46:12] <jelly> greycat: Debian _is_ upstream for ucf so that's a kind of exception
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• 2714[19:46:30] <n4dir> doesn't debian/control contain the homepage of the package itself?
• 2715[19:46:34] <greycat> I wasn't willing to spend more than half a minute trying to find examples of something for this guy.
• 2716[19:46:35] <EdePopede> jhutchins_wk: send them a picture of a LART then ;)
• 2717[19:46:45] <greycat> He can search for his own bloody examples.
• 2718[19:46:52] <jelly> She, but okay
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• 2720[19:47:00] <sveta> replaced-url
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• 2722[19:47:04] <jhutchins_wk> n4dir: Nope. They're mostly independent, or hosted by a commercial entity like RedHat, Ubuntu, or Oracle.
• 2723[19:47:33] <greycat> As I said, sometimes the copyright file only points you to a Debianized repository or former repository.
• 2724[19:47:43] <sveta> greycat: ok, thanks
• 2725[19:47:51] <greycat> I am not ADVOCATING anything. I am not trying to CONVINCE you of something. I am stating my experiences.
• 2726[19:47:52] <jelly> sveta: that's debian's packaging git probably. Upstream might not have a public VCS at all.
• 2727[19:48:19] <greycat> The concept of a "public VCS" is relatively new.
• 2728[19:48:28] <n4dir> i meant the homepage, not the VCS. confusing, this way or the other.
• 2729[19:48:55] <sveta> ok
• 2730[19:49:22] <jhutchins_wk> n4dir: Who's maintaining that homepage? Who's paying for it's hosting?
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• 2732[19:49:31] <nemo> greycat: public VCS in FOSS? it isn't that new? even when we were all using CVS and SVN you could still usually check out.
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• 2735[19:50:11] <nemo> greycat: or does debian have one that anyone can commit to/
• 2736[19:50:17] <greycat> nemo: I might be older than you, then,
• 2737[19:50:22] *** Quits: [bma] (~bma]@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
• 2738[19:50:26] <jhutchins_wk> There is a persistent attitude among some developers that the code should be documentation enough. If you can't read it, that's your problem.
• 2739[19:50:37] <nemo> greycat: oh. quite possibly. it just seemed common in FOSS to have *some* kind of view to the commit source.
• 2740[19:50:55] <greycat> Most projects did not expose their inner workings to the general public. They released a tarball every year or whatever, and that's what you got.
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• 2744[19:51:14] <nemo> greycat: hm. p'raps I've just forgotten ☺
• 2745[19:51:25] *** Quits: [bma]_ (~bma]@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
• 2746[19:51:26] <greycat> The whole "many eyeballs" and "catedral and the bazaar" thing came along later.
• 2747[19:51:31] <jhutchins_wk> nemo: greycat may have been around for a while.
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• 2752[19:52:44] <jelly> sveta: apt-cache showsrc gnumail.app # those Vcs-* headers are what's exposed on tracker.d.o I guess
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• 2755[19:53:08] <johnfg> hi guys
• 2756[19:53:10] <nemo> jhutchins_wk: my first real FOSS exposure as in (actually caring to look for source) was in 1996 but by like '98/'99 I'd swear gnome and mozilla did have visible repos and sourceforge had popped up
• 2757[19:53:15] <sveta> jelly: ok, thanks
• 2758[19:53:18] <nemo> jhutchins_wk: so, eh, it's been a couple of decades of visible repos anyway
• 2759[19:53:35] <EdePopede> ivory tower. nice attitude.
• 2760[19:53:59] <johnfg> For some reason, this buster installation isn't printing on my canon printer. All's fine when I'm running stretch.
• 2761[19:54:05] <jhutchins_wk> nemo: Varies by project, and over time of course.
• 2762[19:54:05] <greycat> nemo: Yes, some projects "opened up" earlier, and some later, and some never.
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• 2766[19:54:52] <nemo> greycat: replaced-url
• 2767[19:54:58] <ksk> !tell johnfg about debian-next
• 2768[19:55:24] <nemo> well. it's not like unc0rr had even started writing it until 2004 - so he didn't do too badly really ☺
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• 2770[19:55:41] <lukas_gab> Hi! I've a problem. In past I make some strange things with apt-get, becouse I want to install some i386 driver. This was big fail. Now I've a broken apt-get in Raspbian on Rpi, and i can't install software. Can anyone help me to solve my problem? When I do sudo apt-get update this is an output replaced-url
• 2771[19:55:41] <lukas_gab> help me, and thanks for yours time.
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• 2775[19:55:45] <nemo> we've outlived 2 hosting services.
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• 2780[19:57:01] <jhutchins_wk> johnfg: You might find something at cups.org
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• 2783[19:57:20] <nemo> lukas_gab: that error seems more like a network error...
• 2784[19:57:28] <nemo> lukas_gab: are you able to actually ping anything remote?
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• 2787[19:58:15] <jhutchins_wk> !rapian
• 2788[19:58:20] <jhutchins_wk> !raspian
• 2789[19:58:20] <dpkg> Raspbian is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian on irc.freenode.net for support. replaced-url
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• 2792[19:58:54] <nemo> jhutchins_wk: the first !, whatever distro that is, definitely not supported
• 2793[19:58:54] <lukas_gab> yes I can ping
• 2794[19:58:55] <lukas_gab> replaced-url
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• 2796[19:59:43] <nemo> lukas_gab: oh. haha. I was looking at wrong pastebin
• 2797[19:59:50] <jhutchins_wk> nemo: Sure it is, it's just Debian re-written in ryme.
• 2798[20:00:16] <nemo> lukas_gab: "replaced-url
• 2799[20:00:30] <nemo> lukas_gab: your comma being picked up by my linkifier
• 2800[20:01:19] <nemo> I like just how much that pastebin dumps on its error screen. guess they are confident in their system
• 2801[20:01:51] <lukas_gab> ha, yes coma is not in my link
• 2802[20:01:55] <nemo> DOCUMENT_ROOT
• 2803[20:01:57] <nemo> string(27) "/home/misiek/replaced-url
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• 2813[20:04:00] <nemo> lukas_gab: anyway. jhutchins_wk is right. but I bet those ones you're not seeing are in /etc/apt/sources.list.d
• 2814[20:04:15] <nemo> lukas_gab: most likely from whatever random stuff you added
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• 2816[20:05:01] <nemo> lukas_gab: replaced-url
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• 2820[20:08:35] <lukas_gab> ok, i try your advice, thanks. When I will fail, I go to rpi chanel, but imho this is only apt-get problem, not rpi specifed.
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• 2831[20:14:36] <nemo> lukas_gab: well. it's not much of an apt-get problem. it's you who have obviously invalid sources in there since replaced-url
• 2832[20:15:00] <nemo> lukas_gab: betcha if you do grep -ir raspberrypi.collabora.com /etc/apt you'
• 2833[20:15:05] <nemo> ll see what I mean immediately
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• 2838[20:15:52] <nemo> lukas_gab: the reason the rpi channel is more appropriate is 'cause they might know what the valid location actually should be
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• 2840[20:16:23] <lukas_gab> yes, I rm -f /etc/apt/sources.list.d/collabora.list and now is less errors
• 2841[20:16:44] <lukas_gab> I have only one about missing some packages in repo\
• 2842[20:16:53] <lukas_gab> but now i can install soft and do upgrade
• 2843[20:17:00] <lukas_gab> thanks for help folks!
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• 2856[20:23:02] <nemo> lukas_gab: replaced-url
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• 2860[20:24:26] <lukas_gab> yeah. Today I use first time this pastebin. This is crap ;)
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• 2863[20:25:32] <somiaj> lukas_gab: in the future it is asked that you ask questions about raspbian in their channel, even if there is a lot of overlap here. There is also ##linux for generic linux help
• 2864[20:27:39] <lukas_gab> ok sorry
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• 2890[20:44:01] <Ameisen> So... after doing an apt update on my somewhat customized laptop... it complains at boot that it cannot find the libc.so
• 2891[20:44:08] <Ameisen> interesting thing is that it's right where it's supposed to be.
• 2892[20:44:23] <Ameisen> Booting up in a separate system and mounting that drive... ldconfig works with it fine, I can chroot to it fine
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• 2894[20:44:42] <Ameisen> my guess is that grub or something is getting confused by the partition/btrfs layout, and is failing to properly mount the root subpartition.
• 2895[20:44:48] <Ameisen> the grub.cfg file is fine, though
• 2896[20:44:53] <Ameisen> it hasn't changed
• 2897[20:45:06] <jelly> Ameisen, what is the exact message?
• 2898[20:45:21] <Ameisen> lemme reboot it up. Just 'missing' SOs, though
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• 2900[20:45:41] <Ameisen> eh, can't boot to it atm. I had rewritten GRUB to see if it fixed it, but now it's only booting to the flash drive
• 2901[20:45:47] <jelly> can you figure out whether it comes from initramfs or real root fs
• 2902[20:45:53] <jelly> !debug initramfs
• 2903[20:45:53] <dpkg> from memory, initramfsdebug is replaced-url
• 2904[20:45:53] <Zauberfisch> {"id":343,"network":1,"type":2,"group":0,"name":"#debian"}
• 2905[20:45:58] <Ameisen> it was basically complaining that the system initializer couldn't find libc's shared objects
• 2906[20:46:03] <jelly> !debug test
• 2907[20:46:03] <Zauberfisch> {"id":343,"network":1,"type":2,"group":0,"name":"#debian"}
• 2908[20:46:07] <Ameisen> but it was actually running the initializer binaries
• 2909[20:46:15] <Ameisen> which suggests to me that it knew where /bin and /usr/bin were
• 2910[20:46:22] <Ameisen> thus... it should have found them
• 2911[20:46:33] <Ameisen> since that's the same subpartition as /lib and /lib64...
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• 2913[20:46:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o jelly
• 2914[20:46:50] *** jelly sets mode: +q *!*@nellis.ncc-501.starfleet.zauberfisch.at
• 2915[20:46:50] <Ameisen> I re-ran ldconfig from the flash drive, with the chroot flag. That ran fine.
• 2916[20:46:51] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o jelly
• 2917[20:47:12] <jelly> Zauberfisch, muted until your irc client stops responding to !debug
• 2918[20:47:37] <Ameisen> At one point I had rebuilt glibc (for a few reasons), and am running a custom-built kernel (the ones in the repos don't work with my laptop's hardware correctly).
• 2919[20:47:42] <Ameisen> and had to rebuild grub
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• 2921[20:47:52] <Ameisen> I also know that apt decided to replace my grub and glibc
• 2922[20:47:58] <Ameisen> which I expected
• 2923[20:48:12] <Ameisen> replacing glibc shouldn't have been problematic. grub... mighta been
• 2924[20:48:19] <srg> Hi. I'm using `timedatectl set-ntp true` to enable NTP on my system. However every time I reboot, it seems to stop again. Any ideas on how I can permanently enable NTP?
• 2925[20:49:02] <Ameisen> at the time, at least, I had built grub because grub trunk had some feature support for btrfs that grub from apt did not
• 2926[20:49:15] <Ameisen> though it appears to be at least mounting the root partition
• 2927[20:49:24] <Ameisen> it just can't find any of the shared objects needed.
• 2928[20:49:52] <Ameisen> haven
• 2929[20:50:03] <jelly> Ameisen, you want to figure out what is "it" and when does the not finding happen.
• 2930[20:50:04] <Ameisen> haven't yet found a good way to fix this. I've been booting into it from a flash drive.
• 2931[20:50:23] <Ameisen> I had it written down but accidently closed it, and presently cannot boot to that partition.
• 2932[20:50:31] <jelly> I suspect "it" is during initramfs.
• 2933[20:50:36] <Ameisen> IIRC, it was udev... something, tha was running
• 2934[20:50:38] <Ameisen> well, trying to run
• 2935[20:50:44] <jelly> hence... go debug initramfs
• 2936[20:51:12] <Ameisen> but immediately failing because it couldn't find libc.so.6
• 2937[20:51:21] <jelly> a simpler test might be: boot an older kernel (with presumably an older, possibly unbroken initramfs)
• 2938[20:51:43] <jelly> Ameisen, which debian release is this supposed to be?
• 2939[20:51:44] <Ameisen> then it was looping on another driver which was trying to find a btrfs SO.
• 2940[20:51:49] <Ameisen> which is also where it's supposed to be
• 2941[20:51:55] <Ameisen> sid
• 2942[20:52:01] <Ameisen> the flash drive is actually the same release and always had been
• 2943[20:52:12] <jelly> !debian-next
• 2944[20:52:12] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
• 2945[20:52:16] <jelly> ^
• 2946[20:52:22] <Ameisen> the main system has (had) custom grub/kernel because of feature support.
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• 2949[20:52:29] <Ameisen> well, I don't think it's testing/unstable related
• 2950[20:52:39] <Ameisen> my guess is that one of my custom builds got partially overwritten
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• 2952[20:52:44] <jelly> I do.
• 2953[20:52:45] <Ameisen> and now the entire system is rather confused.
• 2954[20:52:52] <Ameisen> since the flash drive still works :|
• 2955[20:53:54] <jelly> if I were you I'd try the two things jelly suggested, and continue asking in the correct place for testing/sid
• 2956[20:53:59] <Ameisen> I'm just unsure how to approach this. My plan, at the moment, is rebuild the libraries that I had custom-built before to try to put it into the same state.
• 2957[20:54:11] <Ameisen> mainly grub
• 2958[20:54:22] <Ameisen> oooooooooh.
• 2959[20:54:25] <Ameisen> I think I know why.
• 2960[20:54:38] <jelly> my approach would be to figure out _exactly_ _which_ command it is that it is complaining and _when_
• 2961[20:54:42] <Ameisen> I'd rebuild kmod as well to enable certain compression modes. It overwrote that as well.
• 2962[20:54:45] <Ameisen> rebuilt*
• 2963[20:54:51] <Ameisen> it won't be able to load those kernel modules.
• 2964[20:55:04] <Ameisen> which will include, likely, some related to filesystems
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• 3280[23:19:33] <jhutchins_wk> What's the ps syntax to display the command used for a process?
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• 3287[23:22:31] <__m4ch1n3__> jhutchins_wk, ps -o comm
• 3288[23:23:13] <__m4ch1n3__> ps -o comm <PID>
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• 3293[23:24:59] <jhutchins_wk> Isn't there a way to get it to show the full path of the command, and/or arguments?
• 3294[23:25:09] <__m4ch1n3__> ps -o pid,comm would print "pid command" for each
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• 3297[23:26:24] <ksk> iirc there is also a switch which increased the "width" of a running command, but iirc² there was like a hardcoded (or hard to come by?) limit..
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• 3301[23:27:58] <__m4ch1n3__> maybe pgrep -a "commandname" ? but it could depend on if command was executed with absolute path
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• 3303[23:28:40] <__m4ch1n3__> if its not executed with absolute or relative path but from PATH vauiable directorie
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• 3307[23:29:13] <__m4ch1n3__> you could "command -v <commandname>"
• 3308[23:29:41] <__m4ch1n3__> to get absolute path of command that is executed via paths in PATH
• 3309[23:30:26] <EdePopede> ksk: perhaps ps axreplaced-url
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• 3314[23:32:00] <EdePopede> ah, twice for unlimited is enough
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• 3318[23:33:01] <shush> Hi. What's the process like to update from Wheezy to Stretch?
• 3319[23:33:02] <ksk> ah okay, thanks :)
• 3320[23:33:14] <ksk> !tell shush about wheezy->stretch
• 3321[23:33:31] <ksk> chrchr
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• 3324[23:33:48] <ksk> !tell shush about wheezy->jessie
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• 3326[23:34:16] <ksk> shush: as the bot told you, you should first upgrade to the next release (which is jessie) and from jessie you can upgrade to stretch
• 3327[23:34:43] <ksk> you can message the bot with "jessie->stretch" to get the instructions for that release-upgrae
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• 3348[23:44:15] <jhutchins_wk> Yeah, turns out to have been relative path.
• 3349[23:44:33] <jhutchins_wk> I think there's a way to see arguments, but I ended up just killing the process.
• 3350[23:44:48] <jhutchins_wk> I had a bitcoin miner! Wonder where that came from.
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• 3362[23:51:44] <EdePopede> jhutchins_wk: the ctime of the binary may give a hint when it was dropped to the disk
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• 3364[23:52:23] <EdePopede> maybe it was escaping the raid the did these days ;)
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