People who Joins , Parts or Quits a chatroom
this is #debian an IRC -Channel at freenode (freenode IRC service closed 2021-06-01)
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10 [00:03:39] <EdePopede> i could just need a bit of a big picture right now. apt-cache shows me 2 available versions of nginx: 1.10.3-1+deb9u2 and deb9u1. apt-get -s install prefers u2. judd has u1 in stretch, u2 in proposed-updates and security.
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12 [00:04:03] <EdePopede> so 1) what's the logic behind it and 2) how do i get more info locally?
13 [00:04:33] <petn-randall> ,v nginx
14 [00:04:34] <judd> Package: nginx on amd64 -- wheezy: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4; wheezy-security: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4+deb7u1; jessie: 1.6.2-5+deb8u5; sid: 1.10.1-1; jessie-backports: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1~bpo8+2; stretch: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 1.10.3-1+deb9u2; stretch-security: 1.10.3-1+deb9u2; stretch-backports: 1.13.3-1~bpo9+1; stretch-backports: 1.14.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-backports:
15 [00:04:35] <judd> 1.14.1-1~bpo9+1; buster: 1.14.2-2; sid: 1.14.2-2
16 [00:05:15] <rant> EdePopede: you have the stretch version and the security update available
17 [00:05:28] <petn-randall> EdePopede: `apt-cache policy nginx` will show you which package will be preferred during installation, and where they come from. u2 is from stretch-security, btw.
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20 [00:06:57] <EdePopede> i'm afraid i'm gonna develop a migraine over debian's software management, there are simply too many tools to remember
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22 [00:07:19] <EdePopede> and they all have too many commands
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25 [00:07:56] <rant> EdePopede: you realize they invented the apt command which pretty much does it all, right?
26 [00:08:19] <EdePopede> i used it *once* and then it didn't keep the deb :(
27 [00:08:22] <frikinz> It's way easier that other distro IMO. But you don't learn things in a week.
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29 [00:09:09] <EdePopede> week? i try to memorize those things for MONTH now, before the upgrade i stayed with aptitude's ui mostly to keep it easy
30 [00:09:20] <rant> yeah.. its annoying like that.. does a lot of stuff automatically
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32 [00:10:17] <EdePopede> but it feels like when i tried to get through bertrand russel's book where he mentions a new philosopher or some long forgotten city on every bloody page :|
33 [00:10:24] <frikinz> I used apt a lot then aptitude a lot but yeah, it had phases were it would do too many things ... like proposing you to uninstall the package you just requested to install XD
34 [00:11:01] <rant> could be worse.. Long Walk To Freedom had some african word every 3rd word..
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36 [00:11:33] <EdePopede> my problem with bare cli is that i can't go with just text output floating by. mc instead of ls/rm/mv/mkdir and such things....
37 [00:11:35] <petn-randall> EdePopede: It helps taking notes if you can't easily remember commands / parameters and stuff.
38 [00:11:50] <petn-randall> EdePopede: I do it for a lot of things I only touch once or twice a year.
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40 [00:12:21] <EdePopede> petn-randall: that's the thing atm, i try to rearrange this thing, some cli fed wiki or something
41 [00:12:45] <EdePopede> and i always have been on war with names of any kind
42 [00:12:59] <rant> are you familiar with apropos?
43 [00:13:11] <EdePopede> imagine your brain filled up with stacks of boxes with no label on them
44 [00:13:23] <frikinz> Is that for professional or personnal projects?
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46 [00:13:37] <EdePopede> rant: that's the opposite approach from what i've need :/
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49 [00:14:17] <EdePopede> frikinz: atm only for arranging stuff. taking notes. making those little cards. putting them into some context
50 [00:15:23] <EdePopede> i tried to manage a tree of markdown files with make, compiling them and putting them into the doctree, but meh
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52 [00:16:11] <EdePopede> and i tried some wikis in the past, but don't ask me... for their names
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55 [00:17:22] <EdePopede> and i really prefer to do it in the shell, have a script around the editor, save, leave, and then a quick upgrade.
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57 [00:18:17] <frikinz> notes are nice for things you don't do often or which are very obscure but practice is important. and reading docs, manpages.
58 [00:18:36] <EdePopede> actually i was only trying to see the tags for a webserver to get a list of options then
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62 [00:20:20] <frikinz> Don't be too impatient also. It's not just point and click. Go progressively.
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64 [00:21:12] <EdePopede> frikinz: i never used a shell but bash on a regular base. sure, i looked into zsh, csh years ago. but what did i try recently to avoid an arbitrary variable for read? i tried using $_. took me some time to remember that in bash it was $REPLY. names, remember?
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67 [00:21:52] <EdePopede> frikinz: the boxes, remember? that's f'n annoying after all these years.
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74 [00:23:31] <EdePopede> and man pages... like nginx has "Tag: implemented-in::c, interface::daemon, network::server, network::service, protocol::http, role::program, use::proxying"
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78 [00:23:52] <EdePopede> and now "man debtags" for the 180th time to look up for the syntax
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80 [00:24:27] <jmcnaught> I reread man pages all the time. Sometimes just knowing where to look is enough.
81 [00:24:56] <rant> which is what apropos is for :P
82 [00:25:07] <frikinz> I use debtags once a year so that'd be a candidate for notes :) not sure I wouldn't classify these as obscure. Like a bit :)
83 [00:25:27] <rant> and what I do is write my own wrappers and scripts for shit I know I wont remember
84 [00:25:58] <rant> then I have something I created that works in a way that makes sense to me..
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88 [00:26:32] <rant> when I hit a limitation of that, IT becomes my reference
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90 [00:27:19] <jmcnaught> EdePopede: you might like ikiwiki, it's a lot like what you described of keeping a tree of markdown files and compiling them
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94 [00:27:59] <EdePopede> jmcnaught: now that you mentioned it, iki is one of those i did use in the past
95 [00:28:08] <frikinz> I use cherrytree but its so looking like 80s and not easily convertible.
96 [00:28:10] <EdePopede> nope: debtags cat 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program'
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98 [00:28:52] <EdePopede> i used cherrytree for some time, but i really prefer some file based approach
99 [00:29:19] <EdePopede> i tend to reorganize things sometimes and i live in mc :>
100 [00:29:20] <frikinz> Yeah but I have several hundreds by now. What a mess
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102 [00:30:02] <EdePopede> this one: debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program'
103 [00:30:58] <frikinz> I live in ranger or just zsh
104 [00:31:09] <frikinz> anyway, back to discoverying redmine installation
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106 [00:31:35] <frikinz> o/ good luck ;p
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108 [00:31:53] <EdePopede> thanks for you too
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110 [00:32:33] <EdePopede> rant: guess what my problem with wrapper scripts (or functions) is
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112 [00:34:15] <EdePopede> really have to read that one replaced-url
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115 [00:34:37] <joepublic> Instead of writing wrappers, I usually write a script whose name I will probably try first that tells me what to actually do
116 [00:34:49] <joepublic> years of writing wrappers, I didn't learn much
117 [00:35:06] <EdePopede> the perfect approach for me, one topic in depth
118 [00:35:10] <rant> ffmpeg is one that was way too damn complicated for me.. so I wrote a wrapper script with defaults for it
119 [00:36:33] <EdePopede> find-a-name-for-your-wrapper-mini-HOWTO
120 [00:36:39] <EdePopede> problem #1
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123 [00:37:16] <rant> heh.. I often have issues with naming things.. even vars when programming
124 [00:37:19] <bites> <command>-wrapper#.sh
125 [00:37:23] <EdePopede> and then after 2 weeks i usually have to look into .bash_aliases or /usr/local/bin (being the only user here)
126 [00:37:23] <bites> zsh has better completion than bash. <command> -<tab> shows a list of options with description for example. it helps a bit.
127 [00:37:48] <EdePopede> youtube-dl has such a file for bash
128 [00:37:52] <rant> I was for awhile writing my scripts with my own style headers showing their function and the dependencies
129 [00:38:04] <rant> but that practice fell out of style
130 [00:38:26] <EdePopede> something like javadoc? hmm...
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133 [00:39:00] <EdePopede> have a script parsing your wrappers in the bin and doing something like apropos for them
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136 [00:39:26] <rant> one issue I have with naming vars is that I like things to make sense literally if I have an array of things I don't like to call it things because things[1] doesn't make sense like thing[1] does
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138 [00:39:47] <rant> but then iterating over thing when its things..
139 [00:39:53] <rant> heh
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142 [00:40:05] <EdePopede> with thing from things do
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145 [00:40:08] <EdePopede> or so ;)
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147 [00:41:06] <rant> cause years ago I got to just using alphabetical vars to avoid fretting over the names but then following wth was going on got confusing
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151 [00:42:59] <EdePopede> just imagine you'd had to do it in MUMPS
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186 [01:05:22] <EdePopede> > debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program' | column -t -c 2 -s '-'
187 [01:05:27] <EdePopede> what's wrong with this?
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189 [01:05:55] <EdePopede> or: doeas debtags(1) have a table mode?
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199 [01:13:00] <rant> EdePopede: debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program' | cut -d '-' -f 2- | sed -e 's/^\ //'
200 [01:13:50] <rant> EdePopede: the sed expression is just to remove any leading space the problem with trying to get the 2nd field after a - delimiter is that there are often - in that text so you need the 2nd field and anything after it
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202 [01:14:32] <EdePopede> rant: it's not about the spaces, it splits in 5 or so columns. i know it worked in the past as i intended
203 [01:14:40] <EdePopede> | name | explanation |
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206 [01:15:08] <rant> oh. you WANT both coloumns, just more formatted
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208 [01:15:27] <EdePopede> could be i did a sed s/// before to replace "-" by "°" or something
209 [01:15:43] <EdePopede> rant: i depend on data presentation
210 [01:16:26] <EdePopede> i even have problems reading here judd's output, in the query it has at least bold names for the distro
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212 [01:18:24] * rant shrugs
213 [01:18:38] <rant> I can do something fugly with subshells that'll work but I dont know how to do that elegantly
214 [01:19:14] <rant> awk would be the tool to do it properly
215 [01:19:26] <EdePopede> "give me $n columns, divide at $c"
216 [01:19:38] <EdePopede> i know. but awk, you know
217 [01:19:38] <jmcnaught> EdePopede: maybe you'll like aptitude's formatting better. It has a ~G search filter for debtags: aptitude search ~Gnetwork::server~Gprotocol::http~Grole::program
218 [01:20:32] <EdePopede> jmcnaught: i used aptitude with erm... debian 7 (hint: names!). now it wasn't installed and i try to go with the cli tools
219 [01:20:49] <jmcnaught> you can also customize the package list with aptitude: replaced-url
220 [01:20:59] <EdePopede> and remembering all these config options that's again a thing...
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222 [01:21:37] <EdePopede> and the thing here is, i know i did it before. debtags | cut
223 [01:22:03] <EdePopede> i've read man cut for maybe 10 minutes now and still can't find the option
224 [01:22:11] <EdePopede> column
225 [01:22:12] <EdePopede> not cut
226 [01:22:45] <EdePopede> -c Output is formatted for a display columns wide
227 [01:22:50] <EdePopede> sounds clear to me
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229 [01:23:20] <rant> yeah thats the bit I dont get is that its not limiting it to 2 cols
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232 [01:24:12] <EdePopede> do they mean "screen columns"?
233 [01:24:21] <EdePopede> like in 80cols in VGA?
234 [01:26:07] <EdePopede> but then:
235 [01:26:09] <EdePopede> -t Determine the number of columns the input contains and create a table.
236 [01:26:18] <EdePopede> column [-entx] [-c columns] [-s sep] [file ...]
237 [01:26:26] <EdePopede> so "-t" takes a value?
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239 [01:27:49] <aloo_shu> or means 'guess from input'?
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242 [01:29:51] <EdePopede> # debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program' | column -t 2 -s '-'
243 [01:29:52] <EdePopede> Exception ignored in: <_io.TextIOWrapper name='<stdout>' mode='w' encoding='UTF-8'>
244 [01:29:52] <EdePopede> BrokenPipeError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe
245 [01:29:55] <EdePopede> same with 40
246 [01:30:12] <EdePopede> so "table columns" and "screen columns" are both wrong
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250 [01:31:21] <EdePopede> that's exactly why i want such things written down. try&error until it works, save it to a notepad or something and then c&p from there.
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259 [01:34:59] <rant> EdePopede: debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program' | awk 'BEGIN { FS = " - "; format="%-20s %60s\n" }; {printf format, $1, $2}'
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263 [01:35:33] <rant> debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program' | awk 'BEGIN { FS = " - "; format="%-20s %60s\n"; printf format, "Name", "Desc"; printf format,"----","----" }; {printf format, $1, $2}'
264 [01:35:39] <EdePopede> > debtags search 'network::server && protocol::http && role::program' | sed -e 's/ - /|/' | column -s '|' -t
265 [01:35:39] <rant> latter uses column headers
266 [01:35:42] <EdePopede> hail sed
267 [01:36:19] <EdePopede> when it comes to awk i just can nod and trust you :D
268 [01:36:43] <rant> heh
269 [01:37:26] <EdePopede> the nice thing about `column` is that per default it checks the lines for column width, so there are no surprises
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271 [01:37:56] <EdePopede> i'd only use "%-60§
272 [01:38:10] <EdePopede> s/§/s/
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274 [01:39:18] <rant> ah I didnt notice I was missing the - in %-60s
275 [01:39:32] <rant> was wondering wth that column was justified wrong :P
276 [01:39:53] <EdePopede> half an hour for something which should need half a minute -.-
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278 [01:40:54] <rant> yeah but you could just take the awk line and save it to /usr/local/bin/dashcol or something :P
279 [01:41:10] <rant> then you got a program that formats output seperated by a dash to columns
280 [01:41:13] <EdePopede> wondering if i could install doc-central and somehow implement my notes
281 [01:41:39] <EdePopede> i'd prefer to have my local version of sth like greg's wiki
282 [01:41:49] <rant> really that's still problematic as its using " - " for the FS rather than matching the first one only
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286 [01:42:40] <EdePopede> that's why i usually prefer gnu. they have the habit to implement useful extensions
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288 [01:43:28] <EdePopede> rant: do you really expect me to remember "dashcol" in 2 weeks from now? ;)
289 [01:44:17] <rant> idk I find it easy enough to know all my custom shit is in /usr/local/bin and just look there for crap I know I did already :P
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291 [01:45:39] <rant> I used to use my own shebang style headers like say #$ for the description or #@ for the programs it depends on and such.. then I could make my own tool to search those headers
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294 [01:46:41] <rant> I usually only listed depends not part of the base
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296 [01:47:53] <rant> I also sometimes write my scripts, especially those in /usr/local/sbin/ to hook custom items in ~/.local/bin or such
297 [01:48:19] <EdePopede> markdown has such a simple systems, 3 lines: title, author, date. maybe some awk... und as for deps, only direct ones are interresting. feed it to dot and let it create an SVG
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300 [01:49:46] <EdePopede> i like to keep things safe. though i'm the only user here i don't rely on things i have in $HOME ;)
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308 [01:52:50] <cluelessperson> so, on boot, I'd like the system to ask a user for a decryption passphrase to decrypt their home directory and login, what do you suggest?
309 [01:52:59] <cluelessperson> but, in this case, let's say the user has never existed before
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313 [01:55:48] <Nixmeister>
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359 [02:36:48] <acidtripper> Hi there
360 [02:37:10] <acidtripper> somebody know which version of kde will be included on debian 10 "buster"?
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365 [02:46:40] <woenx> nope
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391 [03:04:43] <well_laid_lawn> !kde
392 [03:04:43] <dpkg> KDE software is based on the Qt toolkit. See replaced-url
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404 [03:15:57] <themill> AciD`: very likely the one that is currently there
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408 [03:18:00] <cluelessperson> how do I learn about how debian starts up?
409 [03:18:03] <cluelessperson> step by step?
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411 [03:18:19] <cluelessperson> bios, bootloader, kernel
412 [03:18:29] <cluelessperson> how is, /proc /sys /boot mounted and what are they used for
413 [03:19:24] <cluelessperson> I'm starting from here: replaced-url
414 [03:19:32] <cluelessperson> and here: replaced-url
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440 [03:40:14] <acidtripper> Somebody having with debian 9.7 the iwlwifi driver error?
441 [03:40:29] <acidtripper> "Failed to load iwlwifi-8000C-26.ucode"
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446 [03:49:14] <Deihmos> i created a folder in /mnt/
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448 [03:49:42] <Deihmos> i changed ownership of the folder to my account but when I mount a usb drive the ownership changes to root
449 [03:49:55] <Deihmos> when i unmount the drive it changes back to my user account.
450 [03:50:28] <acidtripper> hhehe Deihmos with which user are you mounting?
451 [03:50:30] <themill> Deihmos: what filesystem is on this usb drive?
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455 [03:51:19] <Deihmos> default user. not sure what you call it. ntfs usb drive. same process works fine on ubuntu
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457 [03:51:34] <themill> !ntfsrw
458 [03:51:35] <dpkg> NTFS-3G is a userspace driver providing NTFS read and write support. "aptitude install ntfs-3g". Usage examples: replaced-url
459 [03:51:42] <themill> !user accessible ntfs
460 [03:51:42] <dpkg> To get an NTFS or VFAT file system accessible by users and groups on the local machine, man mount; man 5 fstab; and read about the umask, fmask, dmask, uid, and gid options. You'll end up sticking something like conv=auto,uid=<user>,gid=<group>,dmask=0002,fmask=0003 into your fstab's mount option field.
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463 [03:52:03] <acidtripper> default user? Deihmos there not such user
464 [03:52:09] <acidtripper> tell me the username
465 [03:52:13] <acidtripper> $whoami
466 [03:52:30] <acidtripper> replaced-url
467 [03:52:35] <acidtripper> google doesn't bite
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469 [03:53:14] <acidtripper> you have to specify when mounting which user you want to use+
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471 [03:53:45] <Deihmos> ntfs support isn't included by default?
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474 [03:54:15] <acidtripper> what distro are you using?
475 [03:54:20] <acidtripper> debian stable or ubuntu?
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477 [03:54:26] <Deihmos> actually the drive can be read so that's not the issue. when it mounts i had to change user again
478 [03:54:28] <themill> Deihmos: there are about 40k packages that are not included by default
479 [03:54:47] <acidtripper> read the link i sent you
480 [03:54:50] <Deihmos> debian stable
481 [03:54:55] <acidtripper> you have to specify user in mount line
482 [03:54:57] <Deihmos> i also have ubuntu server
483 [03:54:57] <acidtripper> or in fstab
484 [03:55:06] <themill> Deihmos: you need to set the mount option to give the user the permissions you desire
485 [03:55:06] <Deihmos> oh
486 [03:55:28] <Deihmos> thought it would be the same as in ubuntu
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489 [03:55:40] <acidtripper> ubuntu is for lamers :P
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492 [03:56:05] <acidtripper> and as i see on my pc... i have installed debian-with non free firmware.. and ntfs-3g is installed by default
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494 [03:56:10] <themill> Deihmos: are you actually running 'mount' or something else?
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500 [03:58:15] <acidtripper> does somebody have the iwlwifi-8000c missing firmware when booting?
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504 [03:59:41] <Deihmos> UUID=1CFA6A8CFA6 /mnt/medialibrary auto nosuid,nodev,nofail,x-gvfs-show 0 0
505 [03:59:55] <Deihmos> that's what i use with ubuntu. wouldn't it be the same?
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508 [04:00:51] <themill> Deihmos: how are you actually mounting it though?
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512 [04:01:29] <Deihmos> I mounted it manually. sudo mount UID=1CFA6A8CFA6 /mnt/medialibrary
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516 [04:03:07] <themill> in both places? Nothing there has given any sort of permission mapping
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518 [04:03:30] <themill> (it's possible ubuntu gives members of some group access by default, no idea)
519 [04:06:33] <acidtripper> add user
520 [04:06:37] <acidtripper> in that seb
521 [04:06:40] <acidtripper> sentence
522 [04:07:00] <acidtripper> have you read the url i sent you?
523 [04:07:02] <acidtripper> ....
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525 [04:08:07] <themill> acidtripper: I think it's fairly obvious that they have, yes.
526 [04:08:45] <acidtripper> mmm... he's not adding a vital option... that was in that url that's why i doubt
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529 [04:09:21] <Deihmos> reading it now
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531 [04:09:55] <Deihmos> in ubuntu i use the same thing no issues. about to try it now
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554 [04:37:38] <cluelessperson> Deihmos: you'll want to set it so it mounts as user owned
555 [04:38:13] <Deihmos> installing ntfs-3g solved the issue
556 [04:38:26] <Deihmos> i did the minimum install. maybe it wasn't included
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560 [04:41:42] <acidtripper> hehe :D
561 [04:41:48] <acidtripper> cool you could solve it Deihmos
562 [04:42:18] <Deihmos> lol
563 [04:42:22] <acidtripper> in ntfs-3g changing umask let you read read/write as user or root
564 [04:42:27] <acidtripper> there was some setting about it
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930 [10:09:33] <Skandalist> Is it possible to merge correctly bin CD image files in Debian?
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994 [10:45:19] <rant> Skandalist: I suppose so, if you were to elaborate
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1076 [11:32:40] <wrksx> hello guys
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1078 [11:33:26] <wrksx> There's an already running process on my box (rsync), it's been running for quite a while and I'd like to know the time it will exit at.
1079 [11:34:03] <oo_miguel> I wonder why I get only 50Mb/s when using scp over a 1gbit connection. any suggestions how to troubleshoot this ?
1080 [11:34:05] <wrksx> What can I do to somehow 'monitor' the process and detect when it exits to register the time ?
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1089 [11:35:54] <__m4ch1n3__> wrksx, next time run "rsync --progress"
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1092 [11:36:16] <rant> wrksx: you could perhaps attach say strace followed by a timestamp program
1093 [11:36:19] <wrksx> __m4ch1n3__, lol
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1095 [11:36:34] <rant> wrksx: i.e. strace -p 1234; date > timestampfile
1096 [11:36:36] <wrksx> rant, thx I'll look into rtrace, dunno about it
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1098 [11:36:51] <wrksx> strace =)
1099 [11:36:54] <rant> the strace will detach when process dies and shell will then execute the next command
1100 [11:37:12] <wrksx> nice idea
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1102 [11:37:30] <wrksx> ty
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1105 [11:38:15] <rant> or you could kill it now and restart it with a progress option
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1107 [11:38:22] <rant> rsync is designed to be interrupted and resume
1108 [11:38:50] <rant> there will be some overhead while it figures out where it left off
1109 [11:39:26] <rant> but as for the generic solution, this is the way you think on linux.. :P
1110 [11:39:36] <__m4ch1n3__> echo 'alias rsync="rsync --progress" >> ~/.bashrc
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1113 [11:40:55] <wrksx> I'm not looking for a progress option, but thanks
1114 [11:41:27] <__m4ch1n3__> time left == progress
1115 [11:41:46] <wrksx> I'm not looking for the time left either
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1117 [11:42:02] <__m4ch1n3__> oh ok
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1121 [11:42:16] <rant> well if you just want to know when it finishes my solution or anything that'll attach to the process and die with it will work
1122 [11:42:28] <wrksx> I just wanted to know what time did the process exit when I get back
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1124 [11:42:47] <wrksx> rant, yeah that's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to try out
1125 [11:42:58] <wrksx> to try. period
1126 [11:43:01] <wrksx> =)
1127 [11:43:03] <rant> test it on something like sleep or something
1128 [11:43:09] <rant> make sure it works
1129 [11:43:11] <wrksx> I wiil
1130 [11:43:24] <n4dir> well you could to somethink like rsync ... && date; i guess
1131 [11:43:30] <wrksx> once I'll get it installed =) it's not here
1132 [11:43:51] <FinalX> wrksx: there's no way of displaying the status of a running rsync, and for new rsyncs there's not really a proper gauge to see how it's doing on an overall basis. you could restart with increased verbosity and it'll tell you which files it has already done, and how much are left in the directories it already readdir()d, but not dirs it hasn't done that for yet.
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1135 [11:44:28] <rant> well there are other utils that will attach themselves but strace was the first that came to mind other than xev
1136 [11:44:29] <wrksx> Thx FinalX but I'm NOT looking for progress or status
1137 [11:44:39] <FinalX> same thing with stracing it, you have no idea where it is. it might've started at the dir that's last in the alphabet and then go do m, then a, then back to x, etc.
1138 [11:44:58] <wrksx> Dude read the conversation
1139 [11:45:13] <FinalX> yeah, I did. started with your comment.
1140 [11:45:23] <rant> FinalX: yeah you're way off base.. the point is to timestamp it exiting.. the strace is only to hook when it exits
1141 [11:45:25] <wrksx> I don't care what is it doing I want to know when it exits, that's all
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1143 [11:45:37] <rant> when it exits, strace exits, then it can run date for the timestamp
1144 [11:46:16] <rant> this is barring any sort of elaborate process accounting
1145 [11:46:31] <rant> which is available but more cumbersome to setup for a one time use
1146 [11:47:16] <rant> really you may want to run strace with options to limit its output and polling
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1148 [11:47:23] <rant> since you dont care about that anyhow
1149 [11:48:08] <wrksx> rant, exactly but that shouldn't be hard I guess, just reading the man atm
1150 [11:48:22] <FinalX> replaced-url
1151 [11:48:35] <rant> strace is nice to have when you got issues that go beyond what logs, stdout, stderr will tell you
1152 [11:48:58] <FinalX> and if it's not just for this running process, just && date >> /path/to/whatever.log
1153 [11:49:04] <FinalX> (for the next iteration)
1154 [11:49:10] <wrksx> FinalX, thank you very much Final, I've found what I need
1155 [11:49:25] <wrksx> It's a one time thing
1156 [11:49:40] <rant> I'd vote for strace to be included in standard system utils
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1158 [11:49:51] <rant> rather than an optional thing :P
1159 [11:50:16] <wrksx> I agree, 533 kB seems affordable nowadays
1160 [11:50:40] <rant> there are lots of things that are nice to have when SHTF that people dont have when they need them
1161 [11:51:22] <wrksx> maybe strace is a bit overkill for that usage =)
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1163 [11:52:15] <rant> yeah its a tad overkill.. just the first thing that came to mind
1164 [11:52:28] <rant> I most often run it only showing open calls
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1170 [11:56:42] <wrksx> I tried strace -qq but it still prints some stuff... nevermind it'll do for my simple job
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1203 [12:10:05] <rant> wrksx: you apparently didnt read that manual well :P -e none
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1206 [12:10:16] <rant> wrksx: strace -p <pid> -e none
1207 [12:10:32] <rant> will print nothing but the attachment/detachment of the trace type stuff
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1210 [12:11:47] <rant> the -q options only control those messages.. the ones from strace itself, not the ones from the attached process
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1222 [12:23:57] <JustASlacker> is there an easy way to go back a package version?
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1224 [12:24:10] <JustASlacker> I just got php-redis 4.2 but I need 4.1 for reasons
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1228 [12:28:15] <themill> !snapshots
1229 [12:28:15] <dpkg> replaced-url
1230 [12:28:18] <themill> but also
1231 [12:28:21] <themill> !downgrade
1232 [12:28:21] <dpkg> Downgrading is not, nor will ever be supported by apt. Programs change their data in a way that can't be rolled back, and package maintainer scripts support upgrades to new config file formats but not downgrades. Try: "dpkg -i olderversion.deb" or "aptitude install package=version" using "apt-cache policy package" to get the old version number. See also <partial downgrade>, <unstable->testing>, <sdo>.
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1248 [12:38:38] <JustASlacker> thx
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1278 [12:52:39] <coltkirk> i was told Debian was named after the inspiration of Ted Debiase, professional wrestling's 'million dollar man,' in efforts to create the 'million dollar distrobution'
1279 [12:53:05] <coltkirk> sorry i had to say that. it popped into my head
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1283 [12:53:40] <a__pi> The Debian project founded on 1993 by Ian Murdock was named that way because of the three first letters of his wife’s name Deborah and his own name Ian Debian.
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1285 [12:54:09] <jelly> coltkirk: "had to?" Might want to work on impulse control, lack of it can lead to problems!
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1288 [12:54:37] <coltkirk> i fancy myself funny some times
1289 [12:55:17] <jelly> conservative estimates value the work put into debian at around 1 billion, so a thousand teds
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1292 [12:56:36] <FightingFalcon> how am i supposed to install the latest stable version of certbot on debian?
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1294 [12:58:23] <bites> if you are worried about ACME TLS-SNI-01 reaching eol, you can use certbot from backports.
1295 [12:58:28] <bites> ,v certbot
1296 [12:58:29] <judd> Package: certbot on amd64 -- jessie-backports: 0.10.2-1~bpo8+1; stretch: 0.10.2-1; stretch-backports: 0.28.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-proposed-updates: 0.28.0-1~deb9u1; stretch-updates: 0.28.0-1~deb9u1; buster: 0.28.0-1; sid: 0.28.0-1
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1306 [13:01:02] <FightingFalcon> umm didnt understand
1307 [13:01:15] <FightingFalcon> i added backports repo to sources.list
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1310 [13:01:23] <FightingFalcon> but certbot is still 0.10 version
1311 [13:01:50] <bites> you can find instructions here: replaced-url
1312 [13:02:06] <FightingFalcon> apt-get -t stretch-backports install "package"
1313 [13:02:14] <FightingFalcon> here what shall i write instead of "package"?
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1315 [13:02:26] <bites> the name of the package.
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1317 [13:02:43] <FightingFalcon> and in my case?
1318 [13:02:48] <bites> certbot
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1320 [13:02:58] <FightingFalcon> apt-get -t stretch-backports install certbot
1321 [13:03:06] <FightingFalcon> right? and this will install the latest version?
1322 [13:03:16] <bites> make sure to run apt update after you change your sources.
1323 [13:03:38] <jelly> FightingFalcon: don't forget to apt-get update before that
1324 [13:03:42] * jelly slow
1325 [13:03:43] <FightingFalcon> i did that thanks
1326 [13:04:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1555
1327 [13:04:11] <Phizzy> I moved our communal PC back to Debian.org Stable, after a brief trial of "unstable/testing". It's runnning perfectly now!
1328 [13:04:13] <jelly> use "atp-cache policy packagename" to see which versions are available from repos configured and enabled
1329 [13:04:54] <Phizzy> I used replaced-url
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1333 [13:06:29] <FightingFalcon> I have 7 certificates, first one is renewed. But the others are NOT. Timeout during connect (likely firewall problem) is the error
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1351 [13:20:31] <murii> does anyone know if an user has a limit on how many threads it can spawn at once?
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1354 [13:20:54] <murii> how how many threads an application can have at once
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1358 [13:22:36] <BCMM> murii: it is possible to limit how many threads a user can have, but there is no limit by default in debian. in bash, you can type `ulimit` to view your current limits.
1359 [13:22:51] <murii> ok
1360 [13:22:53] <murii> I'll do that now
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1362 [13:23:09] <murii> BCMM: I get unlimited
1363 [13:23:15] <murii> this means the default hasn't been alterated?
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1367 [13:24:55] <BCMM> actually i'm a bit confused about ulimit invocation...
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1369 [13:25:11] <BCMM> i'm not sure exactly what it does when invoked without parameters
1370 [13:25:22] <murii> I also ran ulimit -a
1371 [13:25:38] <BCMM> ah yeah, that's probably the command you want
1372 [13:25:59] <BCMM> i mis-remembered and thought that was the default
1373 [13:26:22] <murii> thanks
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1375 [13:26:58] <BCMM> i get "max user processes (-u) 46797" - i would assume that threads count as processes for this purpose
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1377 [13:27:30] <e> yes
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1380 [13:28:50] <BCMM> incidentally, does anybody know of a standalone equivalent to the ulimit shell builtin?
1381 [13:28:58] <e> prlimit
1382 [13:29:01] <FightingFalcon> How come certbot updates 1st certificate but the rest cannot be updated due to a timeout error?
1383 [13:29:17] <BCMM> e: thanks! i've been looking for that for ages
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1387 [13:30:23] <BCMM> for some reason every example i've been able to find of how to launch an application with a memory limit (for applications prone to memory leaking) have involved spawning a superfluous shell
1388 [13:30:41] <wrksx> rant, thank for the tip, it was kinda hard to tell from the wording in the manual.
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1390 [13:31:45] <e> np :) i think i discovered prlimit by wanting to change the limits for a process that already existed
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1392 [13:32:11] <e> it turned out the process in question cached the limit value on startup so it didn't fix my problem, but at least i learned something
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1414 [13:49:38] <jelly> BCMM: or softlimit from daemontools
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1417 [13:50:27] <jelly> BCMM: and you can exec whatever at the end of your shell wrapper to get rid of the shell process
1418 [13:50:47] <BCMM> jelly: thanks
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1420 [13:51:17] <redcheckers> I tried installing xen using the guide, but when i boot i get a black screen issue. I previously had the same issue with the regular kernel and had to put ' nomodeset ' in my grub cfg. however when attempting the same with the pre-generated debian xen entry, it gives me an error message about a module. Do I put such options somewhere else? or what do i need to do
1421 [13:51:28] <jelly> limits are inherited from parent, so any other tool will also basically be a wrapper
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1437 [13:58:09] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: You need to install the new certbot from stretch-updates.
1438 [13:58:37] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: (Probably)
1439 [13:58:38] <FightingFalcon> karlpinc, i did, version is 0.28
1440 [13:58:54] <FightingFalcon> i have 7 certificaes, 4 of them could be upgraded. but the rest cannot be
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1443 [14:00:30] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Can you pastebin the command and output?
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1445 [14:01:30] <FightingFalcon> replaced-url
1446 [14:02:53] <wrksx> !paste
1447 [14:02:53] <dpkg> Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: replaced-url
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1450 [14:05:50] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Well, it says the certbot server cannot connect to your server. There's (usually) somewhere in your webserver's document root a directory that certbot uses for this. The certbot server must be able to connect with http to the domain's webserver and get a file. This is all setup in the config so you should be able to look at the config and see what the URL is and see if you can connect to it. Also check your webserver
1451 [14:05:50] <karlpinc> logs.
1452 [14:06:23] <FightingFalcon> karlpinc, how come it connects to 4 of them but not 3?
1453 [14:06:39] <karlpinc> If it's timing out then the webserver is not listening or a firewall is blocking.
1454 [14:07:01] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Because the 4 are different from the 3. Somehow.
1455 [14:07:04] <wrksx> ohoh
1456 [14:07:06] <FightingFalcon> So you mean nginx MUST be working?
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1458 [14:07:11] <wrksx> ohohohohoh
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1460 [14:07:53] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Some webserver. (Assuming you've configured certbot to validate via http, which is typical.)
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1471 [14:12:54] <FightingFalcon> karlpinc, i have to setup NGINX to work with cerbot?
1472 [14:13:04] <JustASlacker> no, any webserver will do
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1474 [14:13:43] <FightingFalcon> it doesnt WORK when nginx is running. When its running it says: Attempting to renew cert (paganx.org) from /etc/letsencrypt/renewal/paganx.org.conf produced an unexpected error: Problem binding to port 80: Could not bind to IPv4 or IPv6.. Skipping.
1475 [14:14:08] *** Quits: dtux (~dmtucker@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1476 [14:14:11] <JustASlacker> because there is already a webserver running
1477 [14:14:13] *** Quits: V7 (~v7@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1478 [14:14:22] <FightingFalcon> So tell me what should i do?
1479 [14:15:06] <JustASlacker> find out where in the filesystem the following url leads to: replaced-url
1480 [14:15:11] *** Joins: Marie-Odile (~marie-odi@replaced-ip )
1481 [14:15:35] <JustASlacker> or tell apache/nginx to use a certain directory for that path
1482 [14:15:37] <Marie-Odile> Bonjour
1483 [14:15:45] <Marie-Odile> Transcription de l'émission Libre à vous ! de l'April diffusée le 22 janvier : replaced-url
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1485 [14:15:57] <Marie-Odile> On y parle de Debian
1486 [14:16:18] *** Joins: Guest55125 (~FnorZ@replaced-ip )
1487 [14:16:24] * redcheckers wants to make the system boot right before worrying about reading articles though
1488 [14:16:25] <SwedeMike> !fr | Marie-Odile
1489 [14:16:46] <SwedeMike> Marie-Odile: this is an english speaking channel.
1490 [14:17:47] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: replaced-url
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1497 [14:18:45] <sn00ker> hi all
1498 [14:18:46] <sn00ker> Hello. I wanted to ask how you programmed a software. So it's generally about software. So, for example, what I mean. is it useful to make data from a table in a loop with a sleep or just in a loop? So what is the burden on the system more? or is the cpu bored one way or the other?
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1502 [14:19:48] <JustASlacker> why sleep?
1503 [14:20:00] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, i need to install nginx plugin right? its a must?
1504 [14:20:07] <JustASlacker> no
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1507 [14:20:55] <sn00ker> moment, i make an example
1508 [14:21:37] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: can you show the output of ss -tlpn | grep "*:80"
1509 [14:22:24] <sn00ker> JustASlacker, replaced-url
1510 [14:22:34] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, currently varnish is running on port 80 and nginx on port 8080.. however i shut down varnish when i try to update
1511 [14:22:39] <sn00ker> what is the cpu burdening more now?
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1515 [14:23:59] <JustASlacker> sn00ker: not much
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1517 [14:24:02] <JustASlacker> sn00ker: also replaced-url
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1519 [14:24:28] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: well, you dont need to shutdown varnish
1520 [14:24:48] <FightingFalcon> Then it says port 80 is taken
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1524 [14:25:31] <JustASlacker> how do you start the cert renewall?
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1527 [14:25:49] <JustASlacker> In your nginx config you can add a location to redirect letsencrypt
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1529 [14:26:05] <JustASlacker> location ^~ /.well-known/acme-challenge/ {root /var/replaced-url
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1532 [14:26:18] <FightingFalcon> certbot renew --dry-run
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1534 [14:26:49] <sn00ker> JustASlacker, I am well aware of how many cycles a cpu can handle. but without sleep and in my example, he asks hundreds of times in the second from the ping and write this in a file. does the system use write cycles of ssd or hdd?
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1537 [14:27:51] <JustASlacker> sn00ker: well, does it work without the slee?
1538 [14:28:00] <avu> "a few hundred times per second" is still nothing for a CPU
1539 [14:28:14] <avu> just look at your system load if you want to be sure
1540 [14:28:23] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: you cant check in /etc/letsencrypt/renewal/ how the renewal is configured
1541 [14:28:28] <sn00ker> avu ia if it ran empty it would run but many other programs
1542 [14:28:43] <avu> I can't parse that sentence, sorry
1543 [14:28:54] <sn00ker> yes it clearly works without the sleep.
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1545 [14:29:28] <JustASlacker> then why add sleep?
1546 [14:29:38] <sn00ker> avu debian alone already consumes cycles
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1548 [14:30:18] <avu> sn00ker: as I said, look at your system load with (h)top or something, it'll be easy to see if your script produces more load than you'd like or not
1549 [14:30:26] <sn00ker> JustASlacker, My question was what makes more sense. I've run several such scripts in parallel. is it better to install sleeps or just let it run in "real time" because the cpu eh...
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1551 [14:31:24] <JustASlacker> I would do it without sleep. think you worry too much
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1553 [14:31:40] <sn00ker> and then ... what makes more sense .. to write this data only in the ram or really in a file. So there are cylcs of ssd / hdd consumed?
1554 [14:32:14] <avu> oh, now I realize who you are, sorry for helping
1555 [14:32:48] <sn00ker> o.O what have I done?
1556 [14:33:15] *** Quits: manuelschneid3r (~manuelsch@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1557 [14:33:46] <avu> I know you from #linux.de where you have showed us numerous times what kinds of systems you are building.
1558 [14:34:26] *** Quits: gradio (~gradio@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1559 [14:34:45] <sn00ker> is this forbidden?
1560 [14:35:13] <themill> asking the same thing in multiple channels and not really listening to the answers isn't much fun for anyone.
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1562 [14:35:23] <sn00ker> Do you know. Do not claim things against me of which you have no knowledge. this is called reputation damage.
1563 [14:35:31] <JustASlacker> libel or slander
1564 [14:35:49] <JustASlacker> rufmord
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1566 [14:36:26] <sn00ker> thanks google says "call murder" xD
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1571 [14:38:52] <sn00ker> themill, Yes sorrys for crossposting. but there are only a few people with understanding and life experience who understand and respond. most just know kick ban ..
1572 [14:39:38] <themill> Umm, there are plenty of people who would answer a carefully researched question.
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1586 [14:44:06] <sn00ker> themill, yes ... see avu until you realize "who" I am because .. which is just ridiculous and childish behavior
1587 [14:44:51] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, no matter what i do. its not working
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1589 [14:45:15] <JustASlacker> paste your /etc/letsencrypt/renewal/ config, be sure to exclude auth
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1599 [14:50:12] <FightingFalcon> replaced-url
1600 [14:50:21] <FightingFalcon> there are 5 files there, but all are the same except domain name
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1613 [14:56:10] <sn00ker> does any of you have any experience with snd_aloop?
1614 [14:56:12] <JustASlacker> yeah, its configured for standalone
1615 [14:56:15] <sn00ker> replaced-url
1616 [14:56:24] <JustASlacker> you can shutdown varnish and try to renew
1617 [14:56:33] <JustASlacker> or change the configuration
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1620 [14:57:36] <FightingFalcon> shall i configure it for nginx? and how?
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1622 [14:57:53] <JustASlacker> replaced-url
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1628 [14:58:14] <neilthereildeil> hey guys
1629 [14:58:26] <FightingFalcon> When i use certbot --nginx command it still isnt working
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1636 [14:59:11] <neilthereildeil> i set ecryptfs to encrypt my home directory in a root shell running in screen. then i disconnected the shell with ctrl a+d, and logged out of the computer with that one screen shell still logged in. why did ecryptfs fail?
1637 [14:59:52] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: check my config
1638 [14:59:58] <JustASlacker> replaced-url
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1643 [15:01:29] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, now all of them WORKED except one of them. whats going on?
1644 [15:01:41] <JustASlacker> varnish dead?
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1649 [15:02:51] <FightingFalcon> yes
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1659 [15:04:32] <neilthereildeil> does ecryptfs stop working when i disconnect from the screen?
1660 [15:04:36] <neilthereildeil> screen session*
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1665 [15:05:51] <FightingFalcon> Does certbot --nginx permanently change nginx config files?
1666 [15:06:16] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Probably.
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1702 [15:24:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1570
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1715 [15:31:50] <ksk> FightingFalcon: iirc yes, but it puts changes in some type of header, so you can make them out kind of easily.
1716 [15:32:04] <ksk> better do a backup before running that command ;)
1717 [15:32:17] <ksk> ,v certbot
1718 [15:32:18] <judd> Package: certbot on amd64 -- jessie-backports: 0.10.2-1~bpo8+1; stretch: 0.10.2-1; stretch-backports: 0.28.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-proposed-updates: 0.28.0-1~deb9u1; stretch-updates: 0.28.0-1~deb9u1; buster: 0.28.0-1; sid: 0.28.0-1
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1752 [15:51:26] <uio> Hi! How can I change the weird flame image on the xscreensaver login?
1753 [15:52:22] <uio> I tried renaming /usr/share/pixmaps/xscreensaver.xpm but that didn't work...
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1757 [15:53:22] <die7> nay chance to get udev rules reloaded (inet renaming) without reboot?
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1759 [15:53:26] <die7> *any
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1761 [15:54:15] <shtrb> plasma ?
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1765 [15:55:46] <jelly> die7: "udevadm trigger" as root, maybe?
1766 [15:57:33] <LtL> uio: run xscreensaver-demo i believe and configure it
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1771 [15:59:08] <uio> LtL, I think that that only allows one to slect the images in the background. I chose 'nothing'. But when one starts to enter the password, the ugly fire picture pops up still...
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1778 [16:00:12] <LtL> uio: i don't know, i tried it, then promptly uninstalled it.
1779 [16:00:24] <uio> LtL, What do you use instead?
1780 [16:00:55] <LtL> uio: nothing
1781 [16:01:07] <neilthereildeil> why does ecryptfs-migrate exit when i disconnect the screen session with ctrl a + d?
1782 [16:01:36] <uio> LtL, Ah.... unlocked screen...
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1785 [16:02:57] <neilthereildeil> uio: im using screen in a shell, and ctrl a + d and the exit from the outter shell
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1791 [16:05:22] <die7> jelly: does not work, udev rule is fine which works also as expected after reboot, but I wish to avoid rebbot
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1809 [16:10:07] <Jubei> Howdy. Is it possible to set the ACL permissions for files newly created in a directory? i.e. I have a directory that has an ACL user:replaced-url
1810 [16:10:18] <Jubei> is that possible?
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1816 [16:11:11] <sn00ker> you know all the boot messages when booting up with ok or fail. they are also coming off. how can you switch off the messages? At the start, I have them away. only a black screen. but how can I do that when shutting down?
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1818 [16:11:45] <sn00ker> So I would like to start just a black picture with "start" or turn off "drive down". but no messages
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1837 [16:20:38] <wrksx> I'm trying to setup smartmontools to run autmatic checks on my disks
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1839 [16:21:01] <uio1> !ping
1840 [16:21:02] <dpkg> Sorry uio1, you're not online.
1841 [16:21:11] <wrksx> After installing the smartmontools, I have two services running: smartd and smartmontools
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1843 [16:21:32] <wrksx> what is the difference between those two services
1844 [16:21:33] <uio> Any other thoughts on how to change the picture? I tried looking at all the files I found for xscreensaver in catfish, but couldn't see where the flame image is stored...
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1854 [16:23:39] <wrksx> ah my bad, I didn't look well enough, it seems that both are the same, actually pointing to smartd
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1862 [16:27:00] <wrksx> I've been looking for a few online tutorials about smartd, and there are two files usually involved: /etc/default/smartmontools and /etc/smartd.conf
1863 [16:27:28] <wrksx> Can anyone tell we why there are two distinct files ?
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1881 [16:33:43] <rant> wrksx: /etc/smartd.conf is for the smart deamon and /etc/default/smartmontools is for the init script that starts it
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1883 [16:34:52] <wrksx> ty rant, is that a common practice in Debian to have init scripts in /etc/default ? I'm discovering this
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1887 [16:35:35] <greycat> /etc/default/ contains configuration files that are dotted in by traditional SysV-rc init scripts.
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1890 [16:35:38] <blackflow> more precisely, /etc/default/ files are _environment_ settings for the services, both sysv and systemd if they're sourcing the file
1891 [16:35:52] <greycat> As those are slowly being phased out, there's less and less going on in there.
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1896 [16:38:19] <wrksx> ha right, I see /etc/init.d/smartmontools sourcing/dotting /etc/default/smartmontools
1897 [16:38:48] <greenzap> quit
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1902 [16:42:13] <neilthereildeil> any ideas why ecryptfs-migrate-home is exiting when i disconnecte from the screen session where i am running it using ctrl a + d?
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1904 [16:42:26] <greycat> What do you see when you reattach to it?
1905 [16:42:27] <wrksx> I find it troubling that the (smartmonctl) service is up and running automatically after install, but not configured to start on system startup
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1909 [16:44:09] <neilthereildeil> greycat: it says it finished encrypting the whole home directory
1910 [16:44:15] <neilthereildeil> and the program exited
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1912 [16:44:23] <neilthereildeil> but i know it didnt encrypt the whole thing so quick;y
1913 [16:44:31] <wrksx> Is there any obvious reason for that I might be missing ?
1914 [16:44:39] <idiot136> can u test my torrentt? replaced-url
1915 [16:44:43] <idiot136> its subgenius
1916 [16:44:43] <neilthereildeil> greycat: do i have to run screen in a special mode or something?
1917 [16:44:45] <idiot136> pls i need to test
1918 [16:45:23] <blackflow> wrksx: what do you mean? the systemd service is. init scripts aren't by default, if there's a systemd unit
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1920 [16:46:31] <wrksx> blackflow, ha sorry then it make sense, reading old tutorials and limited knowledge about systemd played against me...
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1922 [16:46:59] <greycat> If the package supplies both an init.d script *and* a systemd unit file, the systemd unit file has precedence. The init.d script only gets used if you boot under sysvinit.
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1925 [16:47:27] <wrksx> okay ty for the explanation
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1928 [16:49:34] <wrksx> So now I'm looking for the systemd unit file provided by smartmontools
1929 [16:50:04] <wrksx> but can't find it
1930 [16:50:18] <greycat> did you do a dpkg -L on the package and see what files it has?
1931 [16:50:31] <blackflow> wrksx: systemctl status smartd.service shows you where it us, under "Loaded"
1932 [16:50:33] <rant> wrksx: /lib/systemd/system/smartd.service
1933 [16:50:40] <wrksx> nope I'm looking throught /etc/systemd/system
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1936 [16:50:49] <greycat> why would you look there? that's for your local overrides.
1937 [16:51:09] * rant just did what blackflow said
1938 [16:51:10] <greycat> or automatically generated alias symlinks and so forth
1939 [16:51:40] <wrksx> blackflow, right it says /lib/systemd/system/smartd.service
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1941 [16:51:43] <wrksx> thanks for the help
1942 [16:51:52] <jelly> it's vaguely interesting init script and s'd unit have different names
1943 [16:52:31] <blackflow> yeh, it's finally more correct, as "smartd.service" :)
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1946 [16:53:27] <jelly> unit name matching the package names seem more sensible
1947 [16:53:53] <wrksx> hum so in that unit file there is this: /lib/systemd/system/smartd.service
1948 [16:53:59] <wrksx> oops sorry
1949 [16:54:22] <greycat> jelly: so you're saying almost nobody has any sense
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1951 [16:54:33] <wrksx> hum so in that unit file there is this: environementFile=-/etc/default/smartmontools
1952 [16:54:41] <wrksx> why is there a dashh in front of the path?
1953 [16:54:42] <greycat> hopefully without the typo
1954 [16:54:51] <greycat> read the man pages to see what the hyphen means
1955 [16:54:57] <wrksx> greycat, yeah lol
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1957 [16:55:10] <wrksx> greycat like, man systemd ?
1958 [16:55:27] <greycat> that would be a valid starting point, yes
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1962 [16:56:42] <blackflow> wrksx: systemd.exec(5)
1963 [16:56:42] <greycat> Oh, there were TWO typos. No wonder I'm having trouble finding it.
1964 [16:56:52] <greycat> The actual spelling is EnvironmentFile with a leading capital E.
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1967 [16:57:24] <wrksx> greycat, yeah sorry had some issues with the clipboard so I quickly typed this, obviously I should have been more carfull
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1969 [16:57:31] <wrksx> careful
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1973 [16:58:27] <wrksx> blackflow, ty will have a look. How did u find out it's in that man page though ?
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1977 [16:59:22] <blackflow> wrksx: learned over time where in the several manpages stuff is. systemd.unit, systemd.service, systemd.exec being the primary oness
1978 [16:59:43] <wrksx> okay no magic search involved =)
1979 [16:59:56] <iovec> there's also systemd.directives(7) to quickly find where to jump to
1980 [17:00:00] <greycat> "man systemd.service" "/EnvironmentFile" "man systemd.exec" "/EnvironmentFile" etc.
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1983 [17:00:25] <greycat> and that's after they all failed when trying /environmentFile
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1986 [17:00:44] <blackflow> iovec: +1
1987 [17:01:05] <greycat> iovec: oh, nice.
1988 [17:01:39] <greycat> Would've been even nicer if they had simply put them all in ONE page, but....
1989 [17:02:05] <wrksx> yeah
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1994 [17:03:29] <blackflow> TIL ctrl-v ctrl-r = regex off in less = case insensitive search
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1997 [17:03:50] <iovec> it's in .exec because you can use those settings in all units that encapsulate processes (so services, sockets, etc). Similarly, the systemd.unit is its own because it applies to the [Unit] section which would be similar for all units, then every unit has its own systemd.[type] to cover what goes in [Type] and so on.
1998 [17:04:21] <greycat> You know what else would have been super nice? Not having separate bloody Windows-style SECTIONS in unit files.
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2002 [17:05:10] <greycat> It just creates another way you can screw things up, without giving you any benefits to compensate for that.
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2004 [17:05:30] <blackflow> nitpick, but it isn't Windows style, it's INI form
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2006 [17:05:39] <greycat> Windows INI.
2007 [17:05:44] <blackflow> predates windows
2008 [17:05:50] <wrksx> u guys are funny
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2010 [17:06:04] <joepublic> We'll be here all week. Try the fish.
2011 [17:06:29] <iovec> well, it was inspired by D-Bus service files (and .desktop entries), that were in turn inspired by windows .ini files, not some variant of them predating it
2012 [17:06:36] <greycat> OK, wikipedia page says some MS-DOS things used it too. Whatever.
2013 [17:06:55] <blackflow> php ini does that form as well
2014 [17:07:00] *** Parts: bouba (~bouba@replaced-ip ) ()
2015 [17:07:06] <blackflow> ft=dosini for the colour :)
2016 [17:07:10] <wrksx> okay, I know I should read all man systemd but I'm trying to figure out what makes a service srat on system startup
2017 [17:07:14] <greycat> all the more reason to run away screaming
2018 [17:07:53] <blackflow> whether it's [Section] or section { .... } doesn't bother me as long as thre's some logical grouping
2019 [17:07:54] <greycat> wrksx: replaced-url
2020 [17:08:09] <jelly> greycat: apache makes sense!
2021 [17:08:10] <blackflow> but having one giant namespace? nah
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2023 [17:08:25] <greycat> Why?
2024 [17:08:38] <greycat> What POSSIBLE benefit to you gain by splitting a 10 line file into 3 sections?
2025 [17:08:55] <blackflow> wrksx: systemd does away with such concepts in favor of targets and dependencies. something is started on boot if the configured target depends on it
2026 [17:09:11] <joepublic> compliance with the INI specifications?
2027 [17:09:24] <joepublic> oh, wait, benefit; um, i dunno
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2031 [17:10:31] <iovec> it might not be apparent but properties applying to the unit "object" and the unit class "service, socket, mount, ..." are different, so that is why you have sections, to make life easier for it =)
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2035 [17:11:37] <blackflow> it's dumb complaining about logical grouping. it doesn't matter if it's [Section], or section{...}, or section_somevar that many flat formats do because.... they're flat and encode grouping in var names.
2036 [17:11:49] <iovec> and the reasoning for having [Install] is a bit different, systemd does lazy loading of units (only following forward dependencies) so you need to create forward dependencies by means of symlinks to do that
2037 [17:12:09] <blackflow> namespacing like this is good forward thinking so one day you can't say "Oh, shi-! we already have that name in the global, flat namespace"
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2040 [17:12:26] <iovec> otherwise if it follows multi-user.target and only loads what it requires (recursively), and something else it isn't going to read has RequiredBy=multi-user.target, it will never see it
2041 [17:12:33] <iovec> it's a design choice that led to that
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2044 [17:13:16] <wrksx> blackflow, okay so it's thanks to the WantedBy=multi-user.target line in the unit file that my smartd service will start on system startup
2045 [17:13:32] <greycat> So once again, the decisions were made entirely to make things slightly easier for the developers of systemd, at the expense of totally unnecessary complexity being inflicted on the thousands of systemd users.
2046 [17:14:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1571
2047 [17:14:06] <n4dir> makes you wonder, doesn't it?
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2049 [17:14:27] <iovec> greycat: ofcourse, for example see the specifier vs environment variable parsing discrepancy (the first resolved at load time, and the second at execution time)
2050 [17:14:37] <petn-randall> !light weight
2051 [17:14:38] <dpkg> <mjg59> To a first approximation, when someone says "Lightweight" what they mean is "I don't understand the problems that the alternative solves". (replaced-url
2052 [17:14:43] <blackflow> fussy fossy is never satisfied. don't do monolithic designs! ooh ooh don't fragment into non-monolithic sections either! tough crowd to satisfy ;)
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2055 [17:15:03] <iovec> since systemd units are not executable, it is hard for them to add dynamism because then it is difficult to decide when to resolve a variable, so they instead resort to saying things like that shouldn't be needed
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2057 [17:15:13] <iovec> going as far as calling specifiers "a mistake"
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2061 [17:16:15] <jelly> greycat: clearly we need a parser to convert systemd units into s6 and use s6init!
2062 [17:16:20] <iovec> and if they add too much stuff, like %U (resolving to user name of the executed unit), they might have to do NSS, and since they do resolution at load time, that would mean doing it in PID 1 (because that's where they parse all units, in privileged context)
2063 [17:17:03] <jelly> iovec: NSS can be done in a sane way, tho, pretend you're nscd.
2064 [17:17:15] * jelly has a feeling of deja vu
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2068 [17:18:02] <mdk> Hum, hello here, I'm having python3.6-minimal and python3.7-minimal installed, but python3-distutils is only installing for 3.7, so my 3.7 install don't have distutils and won't properly work (in venvs), any idea how to get distutils installed for 3.6 too?
2069 [17:18:22] <mdk> (testing my code with both versions using tox usually, but today, it's broken :()
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2071 [17:19:14] <petn-randall> mdk: What OS release are you running?
2072 [17:19:24] <petn-randall> neither of those are in Debian stable.
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2074 [17:19:28] <mdk> petn-randall: Debian testing
2075 [17:19:46] <mdk> yup, can't use python3.5 from debian stable, too unstable for asyncio :(
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2077 [17:20:19] <jelly> 3.6 will hopefully be gone from buster before the freeze? :-)
2078 [17:20:43] <petn-randall> ,v python3.6-minimal
2079 [17:20:44] <judd> Package: python3.6-minimal on amd64 -- sid: 3.6.8-1
2080 [17:21:01] <jelly> 3.6 hopefully won't be default before the freeze? :-)
2081 [17:21:04] <petn-randall> mdk: I don't see that package in testing, I also checked on my local system.
2082 [17:21:14] <wrksx> systemctl get-default returns graphical.target
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2084 [17:21:24] <wrksx> Why graphical ?
2085 [17:21:32] <jelly> oh it's gone already, nice
2086 [17:21:39] <mdk> petn-randall: oohhh I may have a tiny bit of sid too: "500 replaced-url
2087 [17:21:47] <wrksx> is it possible to make sense of the target names ?
2088 [17:21:52] <mdk> petn-randall: didn't though a second I had 3.7 from testing and 3.6 from sid oO
2089 [17:21:55] <petn-randall> Actually, I don't see any python 3.6 package in buster right now ...
2090 [17:21:57] * mdk scratch heads
2091 [17:21:58] <greycat> wrksx: because Red Hat is driving it all. graphical.target corresponds to the old Red Hat run level 5 with *dm running.
2092 [17:22:09] <jelly> dpkg, tell mdk about debian-next
2093 [17:22:21] <greycat> wrksx: multi-user.target corresponds to the old Red Hat run level 2 or 3 (I don't know which) without *dm running.
2094 [17:22:26] <jelly> 3.
2095 [17:22:40] <blackflow> good ol' telinit 3 :)
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2097 [17:23:02] <blackflow> "3" is still working as kernel command line option to force that target, right?
2098 [17:23:17] <joepublic> I wrote a help desk management system in php once called "work sucks"
2099 [17:23:47] <joepublic> technicians loved it, customers didn't know what it was called.
2100 [17:23:50] <blackflow> joepublic: and that's when the fight started?
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2102 [17:24:43] <wrksx> greycat, so it doesn't make sense that my default target is graphical since I have no dm running
2103 [17:24:51] <wrksx> or am I mistaken ?
2104 [17:24:59] <greycat> If you have no dm installed, then no dm will be started.
2105 [17:25:08] <joepublic> oooooh
2106 [17:25:48] <blackflow> jelly: python3 in buster is 3.7.2, so far so good
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2109 [17:26:05] <wrksx> greycat, but system will still "go to" the graphical target ?
2110 [17:26:51] <wrksx> greycat, nevermind, I think I need extensive reading on systemd to understand what goin on really
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2112 [17:27:29] <greycat> *.target is basically a run level with a different name. Going to "run level 5" (graphical.target) starts everything.
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2114 [17:28:01] <greycat> Going to "multi-user.target" starts everything except display managers, because some person at Red Hat thought this was a useful thing.
2115 [17:28:14] <blackflow> wrksx: yes, but doesn't matter, its dependencies matter. meaning you have a debian "server" and you can install a desktop on it (eg for remoting via vnc), it's still a server, but the graphical.target does it job, dependency-wise
2116 [17:28:36] <jhutchins_wk> greycat: Being able to start a graphical system in non-graphical mode is definitely useful.
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2119 [17:29:11] <wrksx> blackflow, so basically it's set on graphical run level just in case you need it one day
2120 [17:29:14] <wrksx> right ?
2121 [17:29:15] <blackflow> it's a just a naming convention. you can set up a systemd based system with any arbitrary target name
2122 [17:29:42] <blackflow> wrksx: forget run levels, the targets don't correspond to them, there's only minor analogy between 3 and multi-usre, and 5 and graphical, as greycat suggested
2123 [17:29:42] <SerajewelKS> wrksx: more because that's the easiest way to say "start everything" regardless of what "everything" means on your system
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2126 [17:29:59] <iovec> it isn't even like runlevels, in runlevels had the semantics that everything in a runlevel should finish starting before it moves on to the next one. Without explicit ordering in systemd, there is no such thing, which ends up causing problems like these replaced-url
2127 [17:30:07] <blackflow> wrksx: you can make up your own target, make it default, and define what it depends on
2128 [17:30:15] <blackflow> so don't overthink the "graphical" part of it
2129 [17:31:30] <greycat> iovec: "isolate NAME ... This is similar to changing the runlevel in a traditional init system. The isolate command will immediately stop processes that are not enabled in the new unit, possibly including the graphical environment or terminal you are currently using."
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2133 [17:32:12] <iovec> it isn't, they're wrong about it.
2134 [17:32:20] <iovec> See: replaced-url
2135 [17:32:22] <iovec> it's broken
2136 [17:32:54] <blackflow> gah.
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2140 [17:34:22] <iovec> they worked around it for getty et all using IgnoreOnIsolate= but obviously that's just a hacl
2141 [17:34:24] <iovec> hack*
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2146 [17:35:30] <blackflow> transitional and backwards compatibility is what's killing it. in turn makes you see nonsense like nginx systemd unit calling start-stop-daemon
2147 [17:35:41] <jelly> so... which init fur bullseye? :-)
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2149 [17:36:03] <blackflow> nosh of course
2150 [17:36:12] <jelly> blackflow: backward compatibility is a must, no flag days plz thnx
2151 [17:36:15] <blackflow> post-systemd, better implementation, still compatible with the unit files.
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2153 [17:37:11] <jelly> ooh, it's by JBP which probably means daemontools compat as well
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2156 [17:40:21] <jelly> ,v nosh
2157 [17:40:22] <judd> No package named 'nosh' was found in amd64.
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2159 [17:40:43] <jelly> ,rfp nosh
2160 [17:40:49] <iovec> it isn't in debian
2161 [17:40:54] <jelly> yet!
2162 [17:41:01] <iovec> :-)
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2165 [17:41:18] <jelly> ,wnpp nosh
2166 [17:41:19] <judd> Bug replaced-url
2167 [17:41:31] <iovec> IDK why you'd use nosh if you wanted something daemontools like, s6 seems a lot more easier to work
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2169 [17:41:47] <jelly> s6 is a bit of a pain packaging wise
2170 [17:42:29] <iovec> probably better designed than systemd in some aspects (notify-fd vs sd_notify, s6-fdholder-daemon vs FDSTORE=1)
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2173 [17:43:17] <jelly> ,wnpp s6
2174 [17:43:18] <judd> Sorry, no wnpp bugs were found.
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2176 [17:43:54] <iovec> replaced-url
2177 [17:44:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1560
2178 [17:44:30] <t3st3rV2> jelly> sometimes it still good idea to clean up prehistoric cruft for the fear turning system into archeologic museum.
2179 [17:44:40] <blackflow> iovec: hey do you know if that problem with restarting journald is fixed upstream? speaking of fd stashing....
2180 [17:44:59] <t3st3rV2> even MS with their overinclination on MS-DOS compatibiliity eventually got it.
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2182 [17:45:32] <iovec> blackflow: it is always going to be unreliable when the system in overloaded, by virtue of the transmission mechanism used to store file descriptors in PID 1, but yes, the official stance is "systemctl restart systemd-journald is OK to use"
2183 [17:46:05] <iovec> and yes, Lennart knows it, but until people make noise, it isn't going to be fixed. Requires some non-trivial redesign of sd_notify (the whole interface is full of races)
2184 [17:46:41] <blackflow> iovec: do you know with which version? I'm hoping the one buster will use. right now it's broken even on bionic (v237)
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2186 [17:47:17] <t3st3rV2> I wonder if he also willing to do something about just journal needing way too elevated rights? So once there is vuln it allows to take Os over. Which is silly.
2187 [17:47:22] <iovec> buster is okay, stretch should be fine too (but I think it misses a fix where journald getting killed will make PID 1 remove them from its store, not sure)
2188 [17:47:32] <iovec> anything 232+ is fine
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2192 [17:48:26] <iovec> blackflow: how is it broken on 237?
2193 [17:48:50] <iovec> note that stop+start != restart (in systemd), you explicitly need to use restart.
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2196 [17:49:21] <blackflow> iovec: stops logging. haven't tested fully with services that rely on stdout being logge
2197 [17:49:56] <iovec> then most likely it wasn't able to store them in PID 1, it will happen when the system is being thrashed, i've had it happen to me =)
2198 [17:50:04] <t3st3rV2> say I don't really get why journald needs something like CAP_SYS_ADIN oO
2199 [17:50:08] <blackflow> iovec: then again, could be an artifact of the config change I did. switched from persistent (default) to volatile (I like to keep journal only as a short in-memory buffer, as it forwards to syslog anyway)
2200 [17:50:11] <iovec> it uses a non-blocking write and then polls for EPOLLOUT on the notify socket, so there's that.
2201 [17:50:21] <iovec> blackflow: nah, that doesn't matter.
2202 [17:51:24] <blackflow> t3st3rV2: so it can read the kernel buffer?
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2204 [17:51:42] <iovec> t3st3rV2: also, it needs to be root to fake credentials (when forwarding to syslog)
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2206 [17:51:56] <t3st3rV2> blackflow> actually users coula be able to access kernel buffer, this depends, though.
2207 [17:52:11] <blackflow> t3st3rV2: not on debian by default
2208 [17:52:37] <blackflow> (kernel.dmesg_restrict)
2209 [17:52:47] <t3st3rV2> Yes, I know this tunable.
2210 [17:53:02] <blackflow> and enabled by default, is what I mean
2211 [17:53:10] <t3st3rV2> iovec> I guess it really weird idea to "fake credentials" and so on. Logger is meant to log. Journald gone doing way too much things - and recently paid for it.
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2215 [17:54:45] <SerajewelKS> the principle of least privilege is rarely used anymore it seems
2216 [17:54:46] <iovec> what, are you asking for separation of concerns and modularisation? =)
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2219 [17:55:36] <t3st3rV2> iovec> well, at least it would be logical if Poettering & Co would be able to use rather good security mechanisms they've put in place in EFFICIENT manner.
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2221 [17:56:09] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: along with its sister, POLA
2222 [17:56:33] <blackflow> Téh Forgotten Siblings.
2223 [17:56:40] <t3st3rV2> As for modularization there could be plenty of woes if one wants to lock things down. Say if we have private filesystem there could be no modular component to call into. Or it have to be set up as fake/abstraction. It gets complicated.
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2230 [17:59:16] <iovec> the problem with how do they do things (i.e. standardize on something) is that it kills competition and being able to experiment with alternative approaches. You cannot replace journald, so you cannot explore some different way of doing logging on your system (like doing it daemontools style with a logger per service instead of using a daemon to fan in all logs from the system, to prevent making it a central I/O / CPU
2231 [17:59:16] <iovec> bottleneck)
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2234 [17:59:35] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: some people use POLA in weird anti-POLA ways and it makes me laugh. every so often i'll read a bug report along the lines of "this flag does what it says and doesn't do this other thing which is what i meant and that surprised me."
2235 [18:00:00] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: it's often abused and misunderstood yes :)
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2241 [18:00:57] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: a backup tool i use has the special backup ID "latest" to mean "the most recent backup taken with the same hostname as the machine" and someone complained that if you try to restore a file that isn't in that backup, it should move to the prior snapshot and so on until it finds the file.
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2244 [18:01:43] <SerajewelKS> because that makes more sense and it was surprising that it didn't do that for him
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2247 [18:03:35] <DoomPatrol> SerajewelKS: whats "POLA"
2248 [18:03:41] <SerajewelKS> because yes, if i typo the filename, i'd like the backup tool to look through every damn backup for a file that doesn't exist
2249 [18:03:46] <SerajewelKS> DoomPatrol: principle of least astonishment
2250 [18:03:50] <DoomPatrol> oic
2251 [18:04:05] <SerajewelKS> don't do shit that a reasonable user wouldn't expect
2252 [18:05:09] <SerajewelKS> it's often violated by tools trying to be too smart and helpful
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2254 [18:05:19] <t3st3rV2> You cannot replace journald, so you cannot explore some different way of doing logging on your system <- Why can't you? System can even run with journalctl totally out...
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2256 [18:05:45] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: that'd be the "abuse" of POLA. It's primarily meant to guard against sudden, unexpected and unintuitive changes in specification.
2257 [18:06:18] <t3st3rV2> still I can understand their wish for anyhow standard api to access logs. What has happened before it has been utter BS.
2258 [18:06:20] <blackflow> eg, rm -rf has that protection about removing / right? it was _added_. now, if it was removed later, for no particular reason, that'd be a POLA violation, because its removal would make nosense.
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2260 [18:07:02] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: that's one facet of POLA but i don't think that's the primary facet
2261 [18:07:12] <iovec> t3st3rV2: no, replacing journald is unsupported and going to break things
2262 [18:07:28] <t3st3rV2> each and every thing logged in whatever ad-hoc format, and even very basic things like getting e.g. user who did that could be a very tricky and perilous action, where remote can feed you with bogus data.
2263 [18:07:50] <iovec> things should just log to stderr, and call it a day
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2266 [18:08:16] <joepublic> and services should be allowed to die a natural death, no heroics.
2267 [18:08:25] <jelly> you misspelled syslog
2268 [18:08:29] <t3st3rV2> up to forging log entry by smartass input like 0x0d and 0x0a in some field, that generally sends most text-mode tools to where they belong.
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2270 [18:09:28] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: well, that's my understanding of it anyway. if something is unintuitive from the beginning, I wouldn't call it POLA violation, personally.
2271 [18:10:27] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> things should just log to stderr, and call it a day <- syslog() looks more logical. stdin/out/err are rather meant for interactive programs I guess.
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2278 [18:11:36] <iovec> logging to stderr is totally fine, has nothing to do with interactive programs...
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2281 [18:12:07] <iovec> syslog is fine too, ofcourse, but stderr is probably a lot more composable
2282 [18:12:10] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: eh, even documented stuff can violate POLA in my opinion
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2284 [18:12:33] <SerajewelKS> the classic example is javascript's parseInt() which will infer the radix from the first argument, unless you explicitly specify the radix
2285 [18:12:46] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: sure, the removal of --preserve-root, in my example, could be well documented :)
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2287 [18:12:52] <SerajewelKS> it's documented but it still catches people off guard
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2289 [18:13:03] <blackflow> maybe that was an insufficient example of being astonished about a change
2290 [18:13:42] <blackflow> here's one major POLA violation in my book. ZFS doesn't clobber mountpoints on Linux. if you import a pool that has a dataset that mounts on /, it will refuse to do so.
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2292 [18:13:53] <blackflow> on FreeBSD, it will happily do so, without any warning or log entry that it did so.
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2294 [18:14:27] <blackflow> (it will do so for any mounted path, which is particularly nasty for / )
2295 [18:14:54] <blackflow> I would go as far as to call it a security vulnerability, but the FreeBSD secteam disagreed. but, irrelevant.
2296 [18:15:04] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> logging to stderr is totally fine, has nothing to do with interactive programs... <- well, systemd handles it reasonably but I still think it weird idea overall.
2297 [18:15:12] <jelly> that's weird, you can mount other crap on top of / otherwise can you not
2298 [18:15:37] <blackflow> well you could _overlay_ afaik
2299 [18:15:42] <blackflow> but not fully replace the mountpoint
2300 [18:15:51] <iovec> t3st3rV2: it is weird because nothing does it, but technically it's totally OK to log to it, infact, that's what you should keep it open for
2301 [18:15:58] <jelly> it's replaced for all the new processes :-)
2302 [18:16:04] <blackflow> in FreeBSD, you can fully replace the mountpoint by mere action of importing a pool.
2303 [18:16:17] <iovec> it allows you to then redirect that to wherever you want, it's a lot more flexible than having to do the same through syslog
2304 [18:16:18] <jelly> blackflow: what about open fds?
2305 [18:16:19] <blackflow> jelly: existing ones will error out
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2307 [18:16:28] <jelly> ouch
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2310 [18:16:36] <jelly> thass nasty
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2312 [18:16:41] <blackflow> that's the thing. importing zpool succeeds, no warning, and you've just broken everything.
2313 [18:16:50] <t3st3rV2> iovec> well, some program do output errors to stderr. However using it as logging facility looks like weird idea. Even it name implies it for errors. But informative log message isn't necessarily error.
2314 [18:17:16] <SerajewelKS> it surprises me a bit that "importing a pool" results in anything being mounted
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2317 [18:18:14] <iovec> t3st3rV2: even systemd's daemon(7) recommends not using syslog() but simply fprintf to write to stderr for log messages
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2319 [18:18:38] <SerajewelKS> as though activating an LVM VG would result in LVM mounting everything. (other stuff on the system might, e.g. systemd will automount stuff that's in fstab, but that's expected.)
2320 [18:18:38] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: it's a result of the zfs mount service, to be precise.
2321 [18:18:46] <iovec> that's the whole point, not tying yourself to syslog, the logging subsystem can actually choose with stderr to connect you to syslog anyway, but logging to stderr keeps a lot of choices open.
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2323 [18:19:00] <iovec> but anyway, nobody is trying to convince you.
2324 [18:19:14] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: isn't it fstab's job to know what you want automounted?
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2327 [18:19:35] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: for ZFS it is only for "legacy" mount points. That's where ZFS breaks the established standards.
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2330 [18:19:46] <SerajewelKS> jeez. remind me never to use ZFS.
2331 [18:19:52] <blackflow> :)
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2334 [18:20:11] <SerajewelKS> if your fs needs its own service to mount things and doesn't even respect fstab...
2335 [18:20:47] <t3st3rV2> iovec> it's written "may choose" which is != "recommends". Its easier to do and systemd would handle it. However, I think it debatable if it good thing.
2336 [18:20:50] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: ironically, zfs root on linux with systemd requires you to use legacy mountpoints and fstab, if you have separate datasets for things like /var and /tmp, because of boot race condition between -- I think -- tmpfiles that pre-set stuff under /var and /tmp, and then zfs will refuse to mount on non-empty paths.
2337 [18:21:08] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: well there's a reason linux kernel devs don't like ZFS at all
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2339 [18:21:48] <SerajewelKS> all the people i've seen touting ZFS over btrfs or dmraid+LVM fail to mention shit like that
2340 [18:21:57] <iovec> t3st3rV2: fine, you still haven't presented why you think it isn't a good thing
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2342 [18:22:59] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: well, I've been a fanboi of it. not so much lately. the zfsonlinux toxic community is a turnoff.
2343 [18:23:08] <iovec> the reason it wasn't a good idea before systemd is because nobody used per service loggers capturing stdout/err for daemons
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2345 [18:23:28] <iovec> but that shouldn't be confused with anything else, it was a deficiency in the supervision tooling people had
2346 [18:24:20] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: for the systems i maintain, online shrinking of ext4 would be all i'd need to make btrfs/ZFS mostly irrelevant
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2348 [18:25:00] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: but good bits like data checksums, snapshots, compression and ability to send|recv are still huge bonuses for btrfs/zfs in my book
2349 [18:25:14] <blackflow> let's see what Stratis will turn into.
2350 [18:25:34] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: sure. we don't need most of that, except snapshots for taking atomic backups, and LVM gives me that. (the snapshots are short-lived. <5min daily.)
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2353 [18:26:38] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: do you raid through LVM or mdadm?
2354 [18:26:45] <SerajewelKS> mdadm
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2356 [18:27:00] <blackflow> still best tool for that job, innit.
2357 [18:27:14] <SerajewelKS> it's fantastic
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2359 [18:27:40] <SerajewelKS> i like the idea of btrfs for being able to join a bunch of drives and have filesystems with differing redundancy levels that share the storage pool
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2361 [18:28:08] <SerajewelKS> in practice that seems a bit risky. e.g. i have a filesystem that is not redundant, on a single drive, for storing transient data.
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2363 [18:28:35] <blackflow> but you can have raid-1 level blocks on the single disk, can't you?
2364 [18:28:37] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> t3st3rV2: fine, you still haven't presented why you think it isn't a good thing <- because it very limited as logging api, for example?
2365 [18:28:38] <SerajewelKS> using a storage pool for a filesystem like that feels too much like raid0
2366 [18:28:45] <blackflow> at least it'll have an extra copy in case of bitrot
2367 [18:28:51] <SerajewelKS> e.g. i've way increased the odds of that filesystem failing
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2371 [18:29:18] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i'm not sure what you're asking or how it relates
2372 [18:29:19] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> the reason it wasn't a good idea before systemd is because nobody used per service loggers capturing stdout/err for daemons <- actually, before systemd, debugging boot faults has been pain in the rear.
2373 [18:29:41] <t3st3rV2> where one had to code some logging facility substitute before getting idea what's wrong.
2374 [18:29:44] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: nvm I misunderstood what you meant
2375 [18:30:02] <t3st3rV2> so I would call what systemd does quite an improvement.
2376 [18:30:04] <SerajewelKS> e.g. have three disks and a 2-copies volume and a 1-copy volume
2377 [18:30:11] <iovec> t3st3rV2: if you want priority, you could easily prefix the message with <4> for instance, and so on, how that has to be interpreted is then up to you. it's just text. but I get your point, if you need what syslog() gives you, use it.
2378 [18:30:25] <iovec> journald will interpret it, for example
2379 [18:30:38] <SerajewelKS> the 1-copy volume would still spread its contents out over the disks, i think. which seems good in theory except now that volume is subject to higher failure odds. not a problem because the data is transient, but a problem because i'm having to recover it more often.
2380 [18:30:40] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: and the 1-copy volume is striped x3 ?
2381 [18:30:46] <blackflow> yeah that.
2382 [18:30:50] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i dunno, however btrfs does it
2383 [18:30:51] <t3st3rV2> SerajewelKS> btw even in such configuration btrfs would by default write metadata twice to 2 distinct locations. A very good idea btw.
2384 [18:31:12] <SerajewelKS> t3st3rV2: right so basically if a disk dies, 1/3 of the files go with it. i'd rather the whole damn fs fail.
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2386 [18:31:36] <t3st3rV2> so random rogue bad sector doesn't causes tremendous corruption due to metadata damage, etc.
2387 [18:31:52] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: from what I've researched about it, years ago, it'll make sure to use all the disks, but eg for "mirror" level it won't go beyond 2 copies, no matter how many disks you've got. I could be wrong and that changed now.
2388 [18:32:08] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i thought you specified the number of copies on a per-volume basis
2389 [18:32:13] <SerajewelKS> volume/subvolume
2390 [18:32:14] <blackflow> which means more than 2 disks is a combo of striped mirror
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2392 [18:32:38] <t3st3rV2> btrfs does not deals with notion of "volumes" or so.
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2394 [18:32:52] <SerajewelKS> t3st3rV2: btrfs has subvolumes which can have differing redundancy levels
2395 [18:33:07] <t3st3rV2> subvolumes are purely management thing, like a empowered version of directory.
2396 [18:33:37] <SerajewelKS> yes, directories that can have different redundancy policies. which is what i'm talking about.
2397 [18:33:44] <t3st3rV2> SerajewelKS> hmn... have they implemented this setting finally? Technically design can do it, sure. But so far it lacked configuration to do that.
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2400 [18:33:56] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: I don't remember being able to define number of copies. there's "dup" (two copies on single disk), and "single", and say "raid1" which won't go beyond 2 copies afaik
2401 [18:33:59] <SerajewelKS> oh. maybe?
2402 [18:34:13] <SerajewelKS> i remember it was on the roadmap for "soon" some years ago. i assumed they'd gotten to it by now.
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2404 [18:34:17] <SerajewelKS> but it still seems like a bad idea
2405 [18:34:55] <t3st3rV2> on its own btrfs can even live with e.g. mix of raid levels or so - or even live conversion in process, but per-file or per-subvolume configuration of that is remaind to be seen last time I checked?
2406 [18:35:05] <SerajewelKS> it's attractive because if i have three disks, i can use as much of it for redundant and as much for non-redundant as i want, and that can change over time. but with raid1 on two, and flat fs on the third, i can't.
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2408 [18:35:15] <t3st3rV2> though idea is very cool and I like their techs allow it internally
2409 [18:35:25] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: yeah, see replaced-url
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2411 [18:35:49] <SerajewelKS> yes i like the idea until i think about it, and then it seems like a problem waiting to happen
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2413 [18:36:33] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: nah, you only risk ONE of 3 drives to die. it wouldn't nuke the volme because each block has a copy on at least one of the non-failing disks
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2416 [18:36:57] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i'm talking about the theoretical scenario with a raid1 volume and a "single" subvolume for transient data
2417 [18:37:19] <blackflow> I see
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2420 [18:38:28] <SerajewelKS> that seems like the magical use case for btrfs but dmraid+LVM seems like the failure scenarios are better
2421 [18:38:36] <SerajewelKS> if we disregard disks dying, it's great
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2424 [18:39:29] <nirakara> why does running rsync whilst copying from a faulty drive to a non faulty one "micro lockup" my system
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2426 [18:39:44] <nirakara> mini little freezes as its reading from the faulty drive
2427 [18:40:32] <nirakara> cpu is at aroudn 25% and 1.5GB/8gb ram used
2428 [18:40:49] <nirakara> the whole system locks up, everything. even typing into irssi
2429 [18:41:05] <nirakara> but the CPU is not at 100% and RAM is available
2430 [18:41:10] <jelly> nirakara: io stack does not deal well with sata drives just stopping to reply in the middle of a transaction; basically this is normal
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2433 [18:41:36] <rant> nirakara: most tools will only show you normal CPU usage not IO waits
2434 [18:41:40] <jelly> nirakara: ideally you'd keep OS disk array and data disk array on different controllers
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2436 [18:41:51] <jelly> but you don't, so you don't
2437 [18:42:02] <nirakara> right, im running this stuff on a laptop
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2440 [18:42:20] <rant> IO waits are far more serious than normal CPU usage
2441 [18:42:20] <nirakara> so file this as #wontfix?
2442 [18:42:24] <jelly> and you wouldn't use crappy onboard sata controller, perhaps
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2444 [18:42:42] <SerajewelKS> wait but then isn't the faulty drive e.g. an external drive with a USB controller? or do you have two HDD bays?
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2446 [18:43:04] <nirakara> yeah i hooked it up to a USB controller (powered)
2447 [18:43:19] <nirakara> strange how the whole system locks up. any reading on this?
2448 [18:43:29] <jelly> nirakara: is the system booted from the faulty drive (not that it matters a lot)?
2449 [18:43:43] <SerajewelKS> i guess if the keyboard is internally attached to the same USB controller, the USB controller could be hung waiting on the drive
2450 [18:43:49] <SerajewelKS> so it looks like the system isn't responsive even when it is
2451 [18:43:52] <nirakara> no it's not its booted from an internal ssd and im copying from the faulty drive (USB) to a normal drive (USB)
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2453 [18:44:09] <nirakara> everything hangs actually, kbd, mouse all apps
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2455 [18:44:24] <nirakara> god forbid i let the screen lock :/
2456 [18:44:27] <jelly> nirakara: if your ssd device is mSATA or sata as well, controller hiccups stopping ssd io might be a thing
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2458 [18:45:22] <blackflow> I remember that happening on <4.9 kernels when dd'ing an ISO with bs=1M. total system hoggery until it's done.
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2463 [18:45:53] <nirakara> im also getting this constantly in syslog, what does it mean
2464 [18:45:54] <nirakara> Jan 28 19:45:19 dags lircd[1209]: lircd-0.9.4c[1209]: Error: Cannot glob /sys/class/rc/rc0/input[0-9]*/event[0-9]*
2465 [18:46:06] <blackflow> (and no problem with smaller block sizes, but that stopped being a problem with 4.9+ kernels)
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2468 [18:46:21] <jelly> nirakara: probably means "disable lircd if you don't use it"
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2470 [18:47:04] <SerajewelKS> IRC server on a laptop!
2471 [18:47:05] <nirakara> right, will do, it's eating up my diskspace spamming that to syslog
2472 [18:47:14] <jelly> SerajewelKS: no, remote control thingy
2473 [18:47:16] <nirakara> actually that's an infrared receiver or something
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2475 [18:47:24] <SerajewelKS> oh. right. what am i thinking of?
2476 [18:47:33] *** Parts: autofsckk (~autofsckk@replaced-ip ) ()
2477 [18:47:43] <SerajewelKS> probably just ircd
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2479 [18:47:58] <jelly> other *ircd might be ircd.
2480 [18:47:58] *** Quits: prince_jammys (~mischa@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2481 [18:48:03] <jelly> but this one is not
2482 [18:48:11] <blackflow> Linux Infrared Remote Control :)
2483 [18:48:16] <blackflow> (daemon)
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2488 [18:48:53] <jelly> nirakara: USB2 speeds instead of USB3 can also make responsiveness shitty
2489 [18:49:27] <jelly> Linux _never_ got that right unlike Windows
2490 [18:49:36] <nirakara> im struggling to understand why the whole system would lockup, it really sucks. it's workable but like blackflow said, total system hoggery sucks
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2492 [18:49:47] <nirakara> i think one is plugged into usb2 and one is usb3 yeah
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2496 [18:50:23] <jelly> an external usb3 switch if you just have a single usb3 port might be better
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2499 [18:50:56] <nirakara> i can hear the spinning rust clicking which indicates a lock is coming. heh
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2502 [18:51:38] <jelly> things linux software also has problems with: reading s.m.a.r.t. over various usb/sata bridges
2503 [18:52:09] <jelly> non-free bianry-only HDSentinel thing does a lot better than smartmontools there.
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2505 [18:52:46] <nirakara> tbh im glad linux will mount and read data from this drive; im recovering it (for a second time!) for a relative
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2507 [18:52:55] <jelly> also it gives a silly percentage health value for each drive!
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2509 [18:53:03] <nirakara> also glad there's nothing wrong with my laptop and this behaviour is expected
2510 [18:53:10] <jelly> yeah, ride it out
2511 [18:53:22] <nirakara> and glad i didn't need to use ddrescue etc
2512 [18:53:22] <nirakara> :D
2513 [18:53:58] <jelly> if the drive is nearly full, ddrescue or dd_rescue might have been faster options
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2517 [18:54:40] <nirakara> yeah but then i end up with an image which i need to mount and copy out of again, which means i need a drive twice the size of the thing im recovering (which i did get anyways just in case)
2518 [18:54:55] <nirakara> unless there's a better approach you can enlighten me on
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2522 [18:56:12] <jelly> if you have a whole empty drive as destination you can just copy the whole disk as-is, I wouldn't do it that way but you end up with an identical partition table and can mount things right away
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2525 [18:56:49] <jelly> doing a file-based copy means free defrag!
2526 [18:57:14] <nirakara> jelly: and then you need to fiddle with fdisk and maths i can never remember to get all the freespace on the drive if its not exactly the same size
2527 [18:58:09] <nirakara> i thought linux doesn't need defrag
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2529 [18:58:27] <nirakara> told that to all my windows friends when installing gentoo for them and running cs:source under wine
2530 [18:58:38] <nirakara> "its all compiled for your system so its super fast AND you don't need defrag"
2531 [18:58:56] <nirakara> oh wait these are win fs
2532 [18:58:57] <nirakara> :x
2533 [18:59:03] <jelly> bwahahaha. haha.
2534 [18:59:26] * jelly looks at fragmentation levels on $work mail server
2535 [19:00:22] <jelly> nirakara: no, linux filesystems are just slightly better at trying to not fragment too much. As long as there 20-30% block space free.
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2538 [19:01:01] <jelly> once you fill an ext4 fs up above say 80-85% it all goes to crap
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2540 [19:01:20] <jelly> and stays there after cleaning it up, of course
2541 [19:01:21] <oiaohm> jelly: not exactly.
2542 [19:01:38] <oiaohm> jelly: I have filled ext4 up to 95 percent and it not stuffed up.
2543 [19:01:59] <oiaohm> Does pay to have online defrag on .
2544 [19:02:00] <jelly> oiaohm: just once, or repeated cleaning and filling?
2545 [19:02:10] <oiaohm> repeated
2546 [19:02:37] <jelly> how new is that feature
2547 [19:03:14] <oiaohm> Its not a new feature.
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2549 [19:03:29] <oiaohm> It a feature some turn off to gain performance and it comes back and bites.
2550 [19:03:51] <jelly> how long has it been default, then?
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2552 [19:04:31] <oiaohm> jelly: since 2009
2553 [19:05:00] <oiaohm> You also have e4defrag to force a defrag as well with ext4
2554 [19:05:02] <jelly> wasn't that just the _ability_ to run online defrag
2555 [19:05:06] <jelly> right
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2559 [19:05:49] <jelly> but debian never set up regular or irregular defrag jobs
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2562 [19:06:11] <jelly> and the kernel does not do it on its own
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2569 [19:08:08] <oiaohm> jelly: ext4 driver will trigger the online defrag automatically once you start hitting too much fragmentation.
2570 [19:08:29] <jelly> also since 2009?
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2572 [19:09:26] <SerajewelKS> we have online defrag?
2573 [19:09:30] <tw> Is there a way to filter by cap (eg. getcap -r) in find? eg, programs with cap_net_raw w/ -mtime -30?
2574 [19:09:31] <oiaohm> Also since 2009 but its not highly recommended.
2575 [19:09:42] <SerajewelKS> shit. if we can move data online when do we get online shrink? :)
2576 [19:09:44] <jelly> news to me!
2577 [19:09:51] <oiaohm> You attempting to write files and it stalled while file system defrags hurts like hell.
2578 [19:09:53] <jelly> SerajewelKS: data. Not metadata!
2579 [19:09:59] <SerajewelKS> true
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2581 [19:10:12] <SerajewelKS> online shrink would get me pretty close to never needing downtime on anything
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2583 [19:10:26] <oiaohm> So basically it better to trigger e4defrag in background in low load
2584 [19:10:29] <jelly> I don't like shrinks, who needs them
2585 [19:10:40] <tw> <- this guy.
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2587 [19:11:05] <jelly> tw: xfs doesn't support them at all!
2588 [19:11:16] <tw> smaller ext4 fs yields less crazy.
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2591 [19:12:05] <SerajewelKS> if i need emergency space for an fs or an LVM snapshot, at least i can online shrink swap
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2594 [19:12:42] <tw> more layers, more problems.
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2598 [19:13:39] <tw> I'm going to assume find + cap_* search is impossible, just like find + user.* xattr.
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2604 [19:14:31] <oiaohm> jelly: replaced-url
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2611 [19:15:12] <oiaohm> xfs was one of the first with online defrag.
2612 [19:15:20] <SerajewelKS> i mean i assume it's theoretically possible to write online ext4 shrink. "it's just software."
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2614 [19:15:55] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: online shrink equals arguing with page cache badly.
2615 [19:16:32] <oiaohm> Grow is safe online shrink not so much.
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2617 [19:18:51] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: replaced-url
2618 [19:18:57] <t3st3rV2> <nirakara> i can hear the spinning rust clicking which indicates a lock is coming. heh <- Linux throws command to read data to HDD. HDD struggles to execute it and retries reading attempts. It takes long, kernel waits for it. You call it "deadlock".
2619 [19:18:57] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i'm not sure what you mean. both should be safe, though online shrink would consume iops shuffling things more than online grow, which doesn't need to move things.
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2621 [19:19:25] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: yeah those methods are pointless if you can just boot the installer
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2623 [19:19:57] <oiaohm> I could not find the one there is one out there where you don't reboot.
2624 [19:20:13] <SerajewelKS> sure, but "no reboot" does not mean "no downtime"
2625 [19:20:35] <oiaohm> The one I am referign to is techically no downtime if it works.
2626 [19:20:46] <oiaohm> If it does not it totally disaster.
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2628 [19:20:59] <t3st3rV2> nirakara> FYI, you may rather want to create faulty drive image usint tools like gddrescue, myrescue, etc. Linux and usual programs do not play well if drive fails to read sectors.
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2630 [19:21:06] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: that's growing
2631 [19:21:17] <SerajewelKS> i know you can online grow, i've done it many times
2632 [19:21:39] <SerajewelKS> and it's not dangerous if you are careful. i've never had it fail yet.
2633 [19:21:39] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: shrinking required end of disc to be not written. It can be done.
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2635 [19:22:03] <SerajewelKS> shrinking could be done by coordinating with the fs driver
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2637 [19:22:34] <oiaohm> You need coordination of fs driver and page cache system.
2638 [19:22:57] <SerajewelKS> sure
2639 [19:23:11] <oiaohm> Ie page cache attempting to load from inode from a disc that does not exist does not go well.
2640 [19:23:34] <SerajewelKS> right
2641 [19:23:41] <SerajewelKS> still plausible to implement
2642 [19:23:52] <oiaohm> partically when it executable space of a program that been pushed out due to low memory.
2643 [19:24:55] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i'd assume online defrag has to solve that problem as well
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2646 [19:25:31] <t3st3rV2> <SerajewelKS> i mean i assume it's theoretically possible to write online ext4 shrink. "it's just software." <- it is, but moving away data from certain location could be tricky.
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2648 [19:25:42] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: no online defrag can just avoid the files currently in use.
2649 [19:26:06] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: resizing you don't have that loop hole.
2650 [19:26:07] <SerajewelKS> t3st3rV2: of course
2651 [19:26:21] <oiaohm> replaced-url
2652 [19:26:26] <SerajewelKS> i'm not saying it's easy, just plausible
2653 [19:26:31] <oiaohm> So it possible todo it but is level of pain.
2654 [19:26:32] <t3st3rV2> Say btrfs keeps inverse tracking of what belongs to what for that reason, they call it backrefs. So they can move offending data away fast. EXT4 likely lacks it so it could be challenging.
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2663 [19:28:37] <t3st3rV2> it really works better when it has been foreseen as design requirements, otherwise it risky lengthy slow operation, rather scary thing to do.
2664 [19:28:54] <s10gopal> installed fresh debian , uname -a says Debian 4.9.130-2 (2018-10-27) but unable to update it
2665 [19:29:44] <SerajewelKS> s10gopal: that is the latest kernel version
2666 [19:29:51] <SerajewelKS> s10gopal: (in stable) why do you think you need to update?
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2672 [19:30:51] <s10gopal> SerajewelKS: added new repo , want to install it
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2675 [19:32:07] <SerajewelKS> s10gopal: what repo?
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2678 [19:33:40] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: there is a difference between plausible and sane. Like it plausible to jump out a aircraft from 25000 feet without a parachute and land safely replaced-url
2679 [19:34:20] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: not like you will be getting rid of parashute any time soon because not parachute path has lots of complexity.
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2698 [19:45:08] <de-facto> In the debian netinst terminal installer (partitioning): what does M, G stand for? 1000 or 1024 based? How can I create partitions aligned to 1024 (as normal in computer systems)?
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2700 [19:45:30] <greycat> "normal" hasn't existed for a couple decades
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2702 [19:45:54] <bolt> oiaohm: parashutes have not been scientifically proved to increase landing survival. there's not a single peer reviewed study on the matter with any significant number of participants and a control group.
2703 [19:45:57] <de-facto> well i want to use it still since it makes most sense with 512 byte sectors
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2707 [19:47:21] <de-facto> greycat, does your answer mean debian installer uses 1M = 1000 * 1000 instead of 1M = 1024 * 1024?
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2712 [19:48:30] <bolt> de-facto: i have no idea what the installer uses, but if you're picky about the matter, you could try using your favorite partitioning tool beforehand and simply going with those pre-existing partitions in the installer
2713 [19:48:35] <blackflow> bolt: I think you mean have BEEN scientifically proven NOT to.... there was this recent research that exposed the absurdity of scientific methodology abuse.
2714 [19:48:40] <greycat> What I mean is that there is no such thing as "normal" when it comes to whether M means 1,000,000 or 1,048,576. With hard drives in recent decades, you are *far* more likely to get 1,000,000 but there are no guarantees.
2715 [19:50:15] <blackflow> for which reason people should spell MB or MiB, to specify what they really mean
2716 [19:50:28] <de-facto> i am picky and insist on using 1024 based measurements. So i would have to use parted for that because debian installer does not support it anymore?
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2723 [19:51:50] <greycat> blackflow: well, if someone writes MiB then you can be somewhat confident, but if they write MB, you have no idea which one they mean
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2725 [19:53:12] <blackflow> yeah unfortunately
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2730 [19:55:00] <de-facto> debian installer writes MB and GB but probably means MiB and GiB, not sure though
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2733 [19:55:50] <greycat> You could create a partition in the installer and then use your favorite tool to see how big it ended up.
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2735 [19:57:15] <de-facto> all units in computers are 2^n based (HDD sectors 512, RAM/SWAP etc), so why should I use MiB and GiB for partitioning? Just because HDD manufacturers want to advertise bigger numbers does not make any technical sense to me
2736 [19:57:17] <blackflow> I mostly debootstrap, but I remember seeing funny numbers in the installer baesd on existing partitions, with decimals even! as if it's actually sector based and rounds off to nearest sector size
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2738 [19:57:41] <de-facto> yes with decimals it displays "MB" and "GB"
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2740 [19:58:27] <greycat> de-facto: I understand your argument, and I may even agree with it a bit, but it is a losing battle. You are tilting at windmills.
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2742 [19:58:31] <blackflow> de-facto: because MiB and GiB are 2^n based? 1000 MiB is 1024MB
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2744 [20:00:02] <de-facto> i am just saying that i want to use 1024 based units for partitioning
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2760 [20:05:12] <jelly> 1000 MiB is 1048.576 MB dude
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2765 [20:06:26] <jelly> de-facto: however. magnetic storage providers used base-10 before silicon storage even existed
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2767 [20:07:37] <blackflow> jelly: decimals! :)
2768 [20:07:40] <de-facto> maybe, but when i want to use swapsize = 2 * ramsize it makes sense to use 1024 based units, when aligning to 512 sectors with grub it makes more sense etc
2769 [20:07:45] <jelly> (and by base-10, did I mean base-10 or base-10!)
2770 [20:08:00] <jelly> de-facto: you don't WANT swapsize = 2 * RAM in 2019.
2771 [20:08:12] <de-facto> why?
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2773 [20:08:19] <jelly> it's overkill
2774 [20:08:24] <blackflow> lol think about it.
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2776 [20:08:46] <de-facto> i have 4 GB ram, so i want to use 8 GB swap
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2778 [20:08:46] <jelly> Linux systems become unusable way before that swap is 100% used
2779 [20:09:08] <jelly> de-facto: use 4GB swap, but only if you plan on using hibernation
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2781 [20:09:32] <blackflow> de-facto: for what purposes exactly. you'll only see it mostly empty, maybe 1-2G filled if you had a lot of open browser tabs for example
2782 [20:09:34] <jelly> de-facto: use about 6GB runtime swap on zram to expand RAM.
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2784 [20:09:51] <de-facto> its a server, so i might not use swap partition at all and rather settle with swapfile?
2785 [20:10:11] <de-facto> swapfile on root
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2789 [20:10:23] <jelly> no need for a swapfile by default, either
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2791 [20:10:45] <jelly> if your workload needs more RAM, guess what... you need to buy more RAM
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2794 [20:10:58] <blackflow> I'd prefer a swapfile over a partition
2795 [20:11:24] <jelly> swap on server: useful only if you have leaky long-running services and want to avoid restarting them too often
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2797 [20:11:28] <blackflow> jelly: well, I disagree. there's always some pages unused that can be swapped out, depending on the software used. bloatwares especially have a ton of stuff loaded but never used. cough, gitlab, cough.
2798 [20:11:39] <idiot136> mmm
2799 [20:11:50] <blackflow> our gitlab server that's mostly idle gobbles RAM like there's no tomorrow and lollity, most of it is paged out
2800 [20:12:12] <blackflow> so I always keep 2-4GB of swap around for that.
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2802 [20:12:16] <jelly> blackflow: I think all userspace devs should learn to write for Solaris first, not Linux.
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2806 [20:12:48] <jelly> and not ask the kernel to allocate gigabytes then never use it and never return it
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2808 [20:13:03] <blackflow> like python.
2809 [20:13:10] <jelly> but we don't live in that universe
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2811 [20:13:47] <de-facto> blackflow, i am actually planing to install gitlab on it, do you think 4 GiB RAM is not enough?
2812 [20:13:54] <jelly> so gitlab counts as leaky shit, I am not surprised
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2815 [20:14:11] <blackflow> I hate that about python. I can live with GIL, just go multiprocess and forget threads (uniless i/o intensive work). but gobbling up RAM and keepint it around? no.
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2819 [20:14:32] <jelly> I'm kind of toying with the idea of using zram swap even on servers
2820 [20:14:35] <blackflow> de-facto: I can assure you that's barely enough.
2821 [20:14:43] <de-facto> wow
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2827 [20:15:41] <jelly> it ruins latency but it ruins it a lot less than swapping to hdd or ssd over half a dozen layers
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2830 [20:16:37] <blackflow> de-facto: what's also wow is that the omnibus package has like 75k files in it. with ZFS on root that means ~10 minutes (yes, 10 minutes) during any installation or UPDATE of the gitlab package, unless I turn off zfs fsync
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2833 [20:16:58] <jelly> blackflow: just for fun, did you try running said gitlab on 32bit userspace?
2834 [20:17:00] <blackflow> 75k files of ruby carp
2835 [20:17:25] <blackflow> jelly: nope, and I'm not sure how that would work
2836 [20:17:52] <jelly> I've had some perl code that basically used 2x RAM on amd64 vs i386
2837 [20:18:04] <de-facto> i never used gitlab before, but i thought it might be worth a try on 4 GB RAM on ext4 root partition
2838 [20:18:14] <blackflow> jelly: some pointer heavy, like linked lists stuff?
2839 [20:18:18] <blackflow> like dictionaries or arrays
2840 [20:18:37] <jelly> yes. lots and lots of dictionaries inside dictionaries
2841 [20:18:47] <blackflow> that might explain it
2842 [20:18:57] <jelly> (well hashes, in perl)
2843 [20:19:10] <jelly> (associative arrays!)
2844 [20:19:33] <jelly> (it's what perl pretends to be objects)
2845 [20:19:55] <blackflow> de-facto: idle server. 4 repos. mostly only me pushing a few commits per evening. replaced-url
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2848 [20:20:04] <blackflow> the drops are updates
2849 [20:20:11] <jelly> the weird thing was, #perl said it wasn't supposed to be like that but maybe the distro had misbuilt perl
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2851 [20:21:15] <jelly> that's horrible
2852 [20:21:35] <de-facto> dang that really looks like i would need more ram for gitlab :/
2853 [20:21:36] <jelly> so 8GB just to keep a basically idle instance happy
2854 [20:21:53] <de-facto> thats crazy...
2855 [20:22:08] <jelly> our Stash, er, I mean, Bitbucket Server, which is a java monstrosity, eats less
2856 [20:22:18] <blackflow> jelly: yes. the box label said 2GiB minimum so we started with a VPS and I discovered that it had a leak that over time, doing literally nothing (no commits), it would slowly grow and I had to restart it once a week as it gobbled up the swap
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2858 [20:22:40] <jelly> blackflow: yes, that's precisely the thing swap is useful for
2859 [20:22:43] * jelly cries
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2861 [20:23:23] <blackflow> jelly: that's why I keep it around, but it's not a panacea, in cases like this it'd eventually overflow no matter the size, unless you address the leak
2862 [20:23:43] * jelly has cron job oneliners that restart a service if swap usage rises above a watermark
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2865 [20:24:29] <jelly> 55 7 * * * if ! awk '/^\//{if($4 > 2000000){st=1}}END{exit st}' /proc/swaps; then $OMS_HOME/bin/emctl stop oms; $OMS_HOME/bin/emctl start oms; fi
2866 [20:24:43] <de-facto> btw another question: do i need BIOSGRUB grub2 core.img partition as first 1 MiB GPT partition?
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2869 [20:25:23] <jelly> de-facto: do you really want to boot via UEFI and not legacy/
2870 [20:25:58] <jelly> (it might not have to be the very first partition)
2871 [20:26:09] <de-facto> I am not quite sure, its how it was setup by the provider (VPN QEMU)
2872 [20:26:16] <de-facto> VPS QEMU
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2874 [20:26:32] <jelly> so kvm, then. Well if it works
2875 [20:26:52] <de-facto> es kvm, so i probably should leave it with that partiton then?
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2878 [20:27:25] <blackflow> I would. I don't see much use for EFI in a public VM
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2882 [20:27:58] <jelly> how large is that boot disk? Why do they even go with uefi at all?
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2885 [20:28:29] <de-facto> 80 GiB boot disk
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2887 [20:28:52] <jelly> so it's not too large for mbr, and bios boot
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2889 [20:29:28] <SerajewelKS> swap is good for absorbing spikes but isn't good to solve systemic issues
2890 [20:29:29] <stacks88> when installing the os, on a remote server, the partitions are: /boot, / and swap space.. so /boot is 512mb.. and the most of the space has gone to / -- but my question is, when the kernel upgrades via apt, where does that go? the vmlinuz files and such.. does it go in /boot ? or would it count as going under / ? i set /boot to 25gb just in case
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2893 [20:29:47] <de-facto> nope but for some reason they do their setup like that, an i guess i should roughly orient my reformat on their choices (although would like to know their reasoning aswell)
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2897 [20:30:22] <jelly> so leave some 1-2GB swap just for fun, and monitor changes in swap usage carefully
2898 [20:31:01] <jelly> de-facto: perhaps they just unify their setup, new windows want uefi, and new linux can do uefi....
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2900 [20:31:33] <de-facto> yes that could very well be the case since they support all those OSes
2901 [20:31:41] <jelly> and gpt is altogether a nicer format
2902 [20:32:01] <greycat> "4 partitions per disk ought to be enough for anybody"
2903 [20:32:07] <blackflow> stacks88: that's a bit of overkill for /boot . 512MB should suffice to keep two, three kernels and initramfs along and updating recycles (autoremove does)
2904 [20:32:18] <jelly> our linux VMs at work have a small .5-1GB boot disk, and a large one for everything else
2905 [20:32:42] <jelly> this way the large one can be a) unpartitioned b) resized online with no downtime
2906 [20:33:06] <jelly> that boot disk only stores grub and /boot
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2909 [20:33:41] <SerajewelKS> UEFI is obnoxious when redundant /boot is required since mirroring the ESP sucks
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2911 [20:34:16] <jelly> yeah but one hopes VMs solve storage redundancy on a lower level by host somehwere
2912 [20:34:32] <SerajewelKS> when working with VMs, yeah
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2919 [20:37:51] <blackflow> "3-way redundancy based on ceph" if you read most of public cloud ingredients labels.
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2921 [20:38:25] <t3st3rV2> <jelly> yeah but one hopes VMs solve storage redundancy on a lower level by host somehwere <- if that needed at all. At the end of day, re-rolling VM is fast.
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2925 [20:38:59] * jelly rerolls the data... a critical fumble!
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2927 [20:39:59] <blackflow> roll 1d20 first, save, VMs untouched!
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2938 [20:45:15] <de-facto> hmm, so i formated with GParted livecd aligning at MiB and GiB, the debian installer shows me now 1.0 MB for 1 MiB but 75.2 GB for 70 GiB *confused*
2939 [20:45:44] <greycat> 70*2^30
2940 [20:45:45] <greycat> 75161927680
2941 [20:46:01] <greycat> 70GiB =~ 75.2GB as advertised
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2950 [20:49:53] <de-facto> yeah so it seems to show base10 "75.2 GB" but why does it show "1.0 MB" for 1*2^20 bytes? probably rounding so first decimal is identical e.g 1.0 MB ~ 1 MiB
2951 [20:50:14] <greycat> because 1048576 rounds to 1.0
2952 [20:50:36] <greycat> when given to a printf %.1f or whatever the installer is using
2953 [20:50:40] <de-facto> yeah
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2962 [20:56:55] <de-facto> I just wish the text based installer would use MiB and GiB, next time I will try to feed it with those strings maybe it interprets it correctly...
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3021 [21:26:25] <de-facto> lol why can i "su root" on VNC console when it would not work after login via primary user on SSH?
3022 [21:26:39] <de-facto> "su: Authentication failure"
3023 [21:26:51] <SerajewelKS> de-facto: "authentication failure" means the password is incorrect
3024 [21:27:15] <de-facto> yes i copy pasted it on both with xdotool
3025 [21:27:54] <SerajewelKS> something else must be going wrong, some unprintable characters being pasted or something
3026 [21:28:03] <de-facto> ooh keymaps probably :/
3027 [21:28:06] <de-facto> dang
3028 [21:28:17] <SerajewelKS> that was going to be my next question -- you use dvorak? :)
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3034 [21:30:57] <de-facto> LOL yeah z<->y were replaced, waaaah
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3038 [21:33:03] <forgon> I try to locate a patch for an old version of warzone2100 which fixed compilation with openssl-1.1.
3039 [21:33:28] <forgon> I assume it exists because it is listed at replaced-url
3040 [21:33:52] <forgon> Could someone give me a pointer? Disclaimer: I do not use Debian, I'm an Arch user who wants a
3041 [21:34:10] <forgon> convenient solution to his problem.
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3051 [21:41:44] <aldcor> hi. I am absolute linux noob. Trying to get myself as a sudo user since i am not by default (why i am not in a first place?)
3052 [21:42:11] <aldcor> i added %sudo ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL in suoders and suoders.d file but nothing changed
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3054 [21:42:52] <n4dir> to answer the question in parenthesis: because during installation you gave a root password.
3055 [21:43:20] <n4dir> the other problem: might be you will have to add yourself to the sudoers group.
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3057 [21:43:39] <rwp> "%sudo ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL" would have been the default. If you needed to add it then something was wrong with the sudo installation.
3058 [21:43:52] <greycat> aldcor: install sudo, and add your user to the sudo group in /etc/group (or using the adduser command). Don't modify sudoers.
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3060 [21:44:23] <rwp> +1 do not modify /etc/sudoers, or forever afterward you will need to make merging changes upon every sudo upgrade.
3061 [21:44:25] <greycat> Remember that you need to login again to pick up new groups.
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3063 [21:44:36] <friendofafriend> As root: usermod -aG sudo aldcor
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3065 [21:45:29] <rwp> Debian way, as root: adduser aldcor sudo
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3068 [21:46:52] <jhutchins_wk> Either way works.
3069 [21:48:12] <rwp> Well... I think the group of us have completely covered making sudo work! :-)
3070 [21:48:26] <aldcor> well here is a wierd thing. It says i am already a member of sudo. But when i am trying to update it says i am no on suoders file. This incident will be reported. (btw thats on virtualbox)
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3073 [21:49:11] <rwp> The /etc/sudoers file must be mode 0440 or it will be ignored. Is it?
3074 [21:49:19] <rwp> What does this say to you? sudo -l
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3076 [21:49:51] <greycat> aldcor: did you logout and back in? What does "id" with no arguments say?
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3078 [21:50:20] <rwp> id | grep --color sudo
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3080 [21:50:54] <aldcor> replaced-url
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3082 [21:51:15] <__m4ch1n3__> is there a way to manipulate evdev relativ pointing device sensitivity by axis? like x-axis = 1, y-axis = 0.5 sensitivity
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3084 [21:52:04] <rwp> An image dump? Just pasting the text would be better. Running sudo as root? You are already root! You run sudo as your non-root user.
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3087 [21:52:30] <aldcor> rwp, that doest work
3088 [21:52:30] *** Quits: xcm (~xcm@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3089 [21:52:32] <__m4ch1n3__> sudo^2
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3091 [21:52:38] <aldcor> i t says i am not in suoders file
3092 [21:53:00] <towo`> aldcor, am member of the group sudo != you can use sudo
3093 [21:53:08] <rwp> Of course root *can* run sudo. But then it would be root's password not your non-root password.
3094 [21:53:09] <towo`> aldcor, man sudoers
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3098 [21:54:20] <greycat> aldcor: what does "id" say when you run it as your regular user after you log out and back in, to pick up the new group membership that you added?
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3100 [21:55:03] <aldcor> hey it worked! i guess i just had to log out and back!
3101 [21:55:17] <aldcor> i guess that adduser command worked
3102 [21:55:36] <aldcor> probably worked before i even entered a chat
3103 [21:55:54] <rwp> Yes.
3104 [21:55:56] <friendofafriend> Yep, always have to logout and in for a group change to take. Glad it worked, aldcor.
3105 [21:56:00] *** Joins: xcm (~xcm@replaced-ip )
3106 [21:56:39] <aldcor> thanks ! awesome community you got there guys ;)
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3109 [21:57:16] <friendofafriend> Always welcome, aldcor.
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3119 [22:01:24] <__m4ch1n3__> is there a way to change sensitivity by x/y axis for a mouse?
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3121 [22:02:09] <__m4ch1n3__> e.g up & down moe sensitive then left right
3122 [22:02:14] <__m4ch1n3__> *more
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3142 [22:17:36] <Deihmos> Just did a Debian install and notice there is no swap partition?
3143 [22:18:12] <greycat> You get to decide how it's partitioned during the installation.
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3148 [22:22:56] <__m4ch1n3__> you could use a swap file
3149 [22:22:58] <rwp> If you did not create a swap partition during install then consider creating a swap file in the file system.
3150 [22:23:09] *** Joins: m_g_lewis (~melvin@replaced-ip )
3151 [22:23:20] <__m4ch1n3__> filesystem inside imagefile
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3154 [22:24:35] <greycat> If the installation is only minutes old, you may also consider reinstalling. Maybe use LVM instead of raw partitions.
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3179 [22:37:56] <phogg> when did Debian start putting a version number in to /etc/debian_version?
3180 [22:38:15] *** Joins: PoaB (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip )
3181 [22:38:38] <greycat> Decades ago at the very least.
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3189 [22:43:49] <edi_> hi , so I was having troubles with auto-updates ( I use ansible, which uses an "apt" wrapper ). Lately automatic updates started failing cause apt would hang and ansible connection closed, causing an unintended lock on apt cache..
3190 [22:44:13] <edi_> so last week a friend recommended the unattended-upgrades package
3191 [22:44:17] <edi_> which also uses apt
3192 [22:44:34] <edi_> it cause (from the looks of it using top) a similar hang
3193 [22:44:50] <edi_> so I wonder what the ** is wrong with apt (or the way I configure it?..)
3194 [22:45:02] <edi_> must mention that my debian jessie boxes do not have this issue with apt
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3196 [22:45:10] <edi_> it's only on stretch boxes
3197 [22:45:17] <edi_> stable releases, all of'm
3198 [22:45:41] <edi_> i wonder this is something that's already known out there?
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3206 [22:49:59] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: An obvious diagnostic step is to run the update manually and see why it's hanging. Probably looking for human input.
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3210 [22:52:37] <edi_> jhutchins_wk: updates always work when performed manually
3211 [22:52:45] <edi_> it's not the problem with the updates themselves
3212 [22:53:10] <edi_> ansible is designed to not need human input
3213 [22:53:21] <edi_> :)
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3217 [22:55:47] <jhutchins_wk> I know, we manage about 1500 servers with it.
3218 [22:56:33] <jhutchins_wk> I haven't used it with apt though. I still suspect it's something like showing a config file diff or some other step that requires input.
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3220 [22:57:20] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: That or you have space problems or DB corruption.
3221 [22:57:43] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: We have seen that yum seems to want a lot more space when we run it from Ansible.
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3224 [22:58:39] <edi_> the update script worked for 2 years straight, never complained
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3226 [22:58:45] <edi_> then it started hanging
3227 [22:59:00] <edi_> first i was suspecting broken ssh connections
3228 [22:59:26] <edi_> because of a lack of bandwith or smth, but checked every nic, every route, fixed everything necessary along the way
3229 [22:59:40] <edi_> all the boxes are healthy
3230 [22:59:54] <edi_> and it only appears with stretch version so far
3231 [22:59:56] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: You're going to have to get more info on where it's hanging to figure out why.
3232 [23:00:11] <edi_> and like I said , when you run apt upgrade manually, there's no problem
3233 [23:00:19] <edi_> also apt -y upgrade, no worries there
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3236 [23:00:56] <edi_> the error ansible returns, is that the ssh connection is lost
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3238 [23:01:13] <SerajewelKS> have it run with "script upgrade.log"
3239 [23:01:18] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
3240 [23:01:27] <SerajewelKS> then post upgrade.log somewhere so we can see where it falls apart
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3242 [23:01:39] <edi_> SerajewelKS, thanks for the tip
3243 [23:01:43] <edi_> i logged some stuff
3244 [23:01:47] <edi_> let's see what I can dig up
3245 [23:01:48] <SerajewelKS> (script -c your-upgrade-command.sh upgrade.log)
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3255 [23:08:03] <edi_> oke, I have this, what ansible reports when the apt thing fails:
3256 [23:08:05] <edi_> module_stdout": "\r\n\r\nSession terminated, terminating shell... ...terminated.\r\n", "msg": "MODULE FAILURE\nSee stdout/stderr for the exact error
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3258 [23:08:31] <edi_> so yea, should log output on the client, which I didn't...
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3261 [23:10:03] <edi_> now I think about it
3262 [23:10:14] *** Quits: gintonyc (~gintonyc_@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
3263 [23:10:16] <edi_> can it be that something is wrong with my python installation
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3269 [23:12:25] <Epakai> what would cause my display (dpms i guess) to not stay off when i do 'xset dpms force off' or have xscreensaver turn it off? it comes back on after a couple seconds
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3290 [23:21:10] <tytan> anyone using rxvt-unicode? I can't set a font in Debian 9.7 x86_64 :/
3291 [23:21:30] <greycat> Why can't you?
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3293 [23:21:42] <tytan> I set one and it has no affect
3294 [23:22:08] <greycat> wooledg:~$ grep rxvt .xsession
3295 [23:22:08] <greycat> rxvt -font 7x13 -geometry +0+0 &
3296 [23:22:08] <greycat> rxvt -font 7x13 -geometry 80x45+0+360 &
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3298 [23:22:16] <greycat> (and many more)
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3300 [23:23:11] <tytan> I can't follow
3301 [23:23:21] <tytan> I tried to use a monospace font at 16pt
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3303 [23:23:52] <greycat> Is your question "what is the name of a 16 point font I can use"?
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3305 [23:24:09] <greycat> wooledg:~$ xlsfonts | grep x16
3306 [23:24:09] <greycat> 8x16
3307 [23:24:11] <greycat> (and 2 more)
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3309 [23:24:17] <tytan> not really, I got all my information from the arch wiki page on rxvt-unicode but it doesn't work for the font
3310 [23:24:29] <greycat> so if you type "rxvt -font 8x16", does it work?
3311 [23:24:49] <tytan> let me check
3312 [23:25:16] <tytan> I'm on xfce4-terminal atm out of frustration
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3314 [23:25:30] <Epakai> VLC on an unfocused workspace was preventing the monitor from staying off
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3326 [23:32:25] <tytan> greycat yes that works
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3330 [23:33:57] <tytan> greycat sorry, my internet connection is kinda bad. did I miss your answer?
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3333 [23:34:23] <tobiasBora> Hello,
3334 [23:34:30] <tytan> o/
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3339 [23:36:31] <tobiasBora> Do you know if it's possible to use XKB with a "partial" modification? I'd like to change the behaviour of Ctrl+numpad to act as down/up arrows, but I don't want to configure also the alphabetic part of the keybord, the system one is good
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