7[00:03:47] <rydare> might get my head bit off for this, but do you have a spare USB stick? I would have you boot a ubuntu livecd to see if the buttons work, because i found a post from a month ago with someone on debian having problems while a ocmmenter using ubuntu said it was fine on their machine
8[00:03:59] <rydare> then we can figure out what ubuntu is doing differently
67[00:14:50] <d0uglas> hey rydare, thanks for your help yesterday.. I fired up memtest which has been running a solid 21 hours, 638 errors. Went into bios (new mb), adjusted the voltage and speed of the ram in line with the product specs, ran memtest again, no dice. Based on this - replaced-url
97[00:22:26] <d0uglas> so i enabled it in bios, now in grub, editing commands, one that's up top is setparams '... ' .. do I want to tuck iommu=soft inside its quotation marks, or a separate line?
126[00:37:29] <d0uglas> This time I hit f7 or the right arrow by mistake at the boot menu, didn't pass iommu, new weirdness like rcu_sched kthread starved for 20541 jiffies! (gibberish) ... NMI watchdog: BUG: soft lockup - CPU#[1,2,..8] stuck for 22s! [systemd-udevd..]
127[00:37:38] <lenswipe> ah
128[00:37:44] <rydare> i'm on testing
129[00:37:48] <rydare> but it does come with issues
130[00:37:57] <rydare> i find it better for a desktop use
131[00:38:03] <rydare> for a server i'd definitely use stable
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216[01:57:52] *** jdd is now known as baconicsynergy
217[01:58:07] <syrius> mmm. ChmEarl Build-Depends has all the cross-platform stuff there, but also has <!nocheck> after each line
218[01:58:31] <syrius> i ended up just compiling sources separately and installing them toa temp dir and updating PATH/LD_LIBRARY_PATH for the time being until a new deb is pushed to testing
219[01:58:54] <syrius> i can drop the env vars when it's fixed. this will be fine for now. i just didn't understand why it needed all those cross-platform deps
220[01:59:30] *** Quits: krabador (~krabador@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
221[01:59:51] <ChmEarl> syrius, the x-platform deps is bad enough, but during the build they might use qemu-debootstrap during x-compile, which takes long time
222[02:00:01] <syrius> i saw the refs in debian/control.in - don't see a debian/control.main.in or debian/templates/control.main.in
223[02:00:10] <syrius> uhg
224[02:00:32] <syrius> so i can just drop lines in that file though as far as the deps are concerned?
225[02:00:49] <baconicsynergy> I have a question about the recent speculative execution errors in Intel CPUs. Does a complete fix require the non-free repository w/ non-free intel microcode, or is there a fix within the main security updates repository? I really don't want to enable non-free, but I want to be secure. Does anyone have any input on this situation?
243[02:08:49] <bennypr0fane> It says the used Hash: SHA512, but that one is too short to be sha512. Also, if I get the sha256 sum for this files, it matches
417[05:09:15] *** Quits: Uberius (~Uberius@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
418[05:10:40] <cmyers> I am desperately seeking help installing debian. I've confirmed my thumb drive is correctly "burned" with the debian 9.5.0 xfce cd1 image (sha1sum matches, works on other machine), but both text and graphical install don't work. Graphical install gives a blank screen, text install gives a weird unreadably tiny screen (like 1cm wide). I have a 5min video link I can share if it helps. The machine is a bra
419[05:10:45] <cmyers> nd new system76 oryx pro that came preinstalled with ubuntu (and boots fine).
420[05:11:23] <cmyers> I've filed a support ticket with system76 and they seem clueless and insist it should work and my usb drive must be burned wrong or something
456[05:46:03] <io_elephant> I have a Kingston HyperX 3.1 USB. I am having some weird performance issues with it. Lets say I unplug it and plug it back in. Here is the kernel log: replaced-url
457[05:46:09] <io_elephant> reran it and got 800 MB/sec. Is the kernel loading the correct driver?
512[07:03:46] <iratie> I made a stretch USB installer from the latest ISO, ran the installer from win10 and got as far as the restart and OS selection screen where I select 'continue installation' but when I select that, windows bootloader interrupts, restarts and says windows failed to load. any ideas?
517[07:05:35] <klys> what software have you installed debian to usb with?
518[07:06:08] <iratie> just extracted the ISO to the usb and ran it. when i boot from usb, it starts the installer but then fails to read the USB midway through the install
519[07:06:39] <klys> can you dd it onto the usb disk? winimage?
520[07:07:04] <iratie> do I need to? it loads the installer from boot and runs it from windows, I'm not sure that'd help me
521[07:07:24] <klys> wait, you had said you were having a boot problem.
522[07:07:40] <iratie> yeah. windows boot manager interrupts the install
558[07:55:29] <m0rd3cai> does anyone know how to locate where a folder would be being referenced as $SNAP_COMMON. the install documentation refers to that, not the specific directory
593[08:32:25] <blingrang> Hi, just a quick question that I couldn't find the answer to on the deb stretch wiki. I see that systemd is the installed service manager. Does this mean sysvinit has been completely dropped unike Jessie?
673[10:17:47] <martin-_-_> the hdd is from a nas, and the connected hdd is from the same nas system, so the partitions and folder structure is the same
674[10:18:27] <martin-_-_> the intern main hdd has: /dev/hdc1 on / and /dev/c/c on /c type ext3 (rw,noatime,acl,user_xattr,usrquota,grpquota) [c]
689[10:24:21] <martin-_-_> jasabella thanks I need to install it
690[10:24:39] <joftr> martin: so /dev/sda1 is mount on /USB/USB_HDD_2_1 and that mount point now shows a "c" directory ... isn't that what you are searching for?
691[10:24:58] *** Quits: louvre (~louvre@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
692[10:25:18] *** Joins: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip)
703[10:30:16] <joftr> martin: that's new for me, I've never seen such subdivision of a normal partition like sda1 into kind of "subpartitions" your fdisk output does not show any such subpartitions
708[10:33:39] <xingu> martin-_-_: a complete shot in the dark but how about this for a theory; /dev/c is a lvm vg that lives on /dev/sda5
709[10:34:11] <martin-_-_> the /dev/hdc1/ with its 2gb looks like it would be the system Linux partiontn and /dev/hdc3 or /dev/hdc5 looks like it would be the media space?
710[10:34:27] <martin-_-_> I have to google for lvm vg
711[10:34:56] <martin-_-_> aha yes that could be the case xingu
720[10:41:03] <martin-_-_> vgscan tells me Found volume group "c" using metadata type lvm2
721[10:41:31] <xingu> martin-_-_: lvm manages the backing store by itself (it has its own block allocator), so I feel that it's unlikely you'll recover something on the underlying device (sda5) that is rational from ext3's perspective without it
722[10:41:47] <xingu> martin-_-_: did /dev/c/ populate?
723[10:42:19] <martin-_-_> yes but I had this already
830[12:13:41] <frikinz> Hi. On Stretch, quite some unicode chars are wrongly displayed, even in xterm (printf '\xFF\x0F' displays a question mark). Any idea what to check or what the problem could be?
831[12:14:22] <frikinz> Reminds me of unicode headaches, but that was 10 years ago :)
849[12:27:09] <frikinz> Locales looks fine so I guess font yes, but I can't remember changing anything. Fonts listed in xorg log are ok. I use kde as DE, I could try xfce
850[12:27:33] <frikinz> let me change to en_US.UTF-8 for a try
851[12:27:57] *** Quits: sulit (~mutou@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
852[12:28:03] <ksk> nah, its more about do your fonts support this kind of sign afaik. and as I said, I can neither display it (using mosh on a remote session)
853[12:28:46] <ksk> like for example, even if the UTF-8 locle does support asian type of letters, you also need a font that supports it.
854[12:29:01] <jasabella> yeah looks like font issues
855[12:29:06] <ksk> changing the DE would be a little overkill.
878[12:35:47] *** Quits: petan (~g@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
879[12:36:20] <rocketmagnet> i've troubles with notify-send, when i type in notify-send "Welcome" i get no output, in my taskbar i've the widget to display messages but no messages appear, i also tried to reinstall notify-send and the other packages but nothing happens :X
880[12:36:54] *** Quits: sulit (~mutou@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
882[12:38:56] <BCMM> rocketmagnet: it would probably help to know which DE or taskbar you're using
883[12:39:20] <rocketmagnet> i'm using mate with latest stable debian
884[12:40:02] <rocketmagnet> when i go to the settings where i can setup the notifications and also see an example how it's working, but notify-send does nothing
893[12:44:57] <rocketmagnet> it's a shell script, is it enouth when i trypen in the path + the name of the shell script with the .sh at the end or without ?
895[12:49:06] <frikinz> jasabella: just tried fonts-roboto, the same. And I haven't found a monospace variant in that stretch package. Do you confirm using that font successfully on debian?
896[12:49:41] <jasabella> yes, but i'm using en_GB.UTF-8 locale
1005[15:14:45] *** Quits: coolmadmax (~coolmadma@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1006[15:17:25] <joftr> bipul: ok, it seems like it should, but does host1 have those 2 .1 IPs assigned (to these bridges) - check w/ "ip addr" on host1 ......... and do you have any firewalling going on - on host1 or the nodes? ........ I think the fact that the error is "destination port unreachable" suggest that routing is actually working, but something different is messing with the packets
1019[15:45:16] <ksk> Im using Xfce, can I switch alt-tab to something else? (as its running on windows in a virtualbox VM)
1020[15:46:58] *** Quits: dina16 (~d-ina@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1021[15:47:30] <joftr> bipol: so now we at least know why you are seeing "dest port unreachable", for some reason the packets from 123.13 hit that filter/FORWARD fallback rule, which es rejecting everything w/ exactly that icmp message
1025[15:52:26] <joftr> bipol: ah, right ... should have seen that right away: the order of the rules is important, that's why from 122.x to 123.y it is working, but not the other way around
1026[15:53:42] <bipul> My name is bipul :(
1027[15:53:55] <joftr> bipul: the packets from 123.x are going past the first 3 filter/FORWARD rules and unfortunately hit the 4. rule, which result in the ICMP message we get
1028[15:54:02] <bipul> okay :)
1029[15:54:41] <joftr> bipul: sorry (I should use another IRC client, which automatically attaches those name prefixes, I guess)
1030[15:54:42] <bipul> could you hint any link or documentation to learn more about this iptables rules/
1034[15:55:40] <joftr> bipul: not from the top of my head, but why aren't you just change the order in your firewall script? what do you use to setup these rules?
1035[15:56:43] <bipul> I have not setup these rule :( infect i have setup this node to learn IPTABLES chain rules.
1036[15:56:59] <joftr> bipul: I guess these rules are generated by a simple script, doesn't look like generated from something like shorewall
1037[15:57:16] <bipul> Yes, it might be generated from libvirt
1038[15:57:34] <bipul> I have not setup or configured any iptables rules.
1040[16:00:13] <joftr> bipul: unfortunately I'm not familiar with libvirt w/ iptables rule generation ... as a very first step you could change the order of the rules manually
1045[16:01:36] <joftr> bipul: node3 is news, until now we were talking about host1, node1 and node2
1046[16:02:24] <bipul> I'm sorry. Yes.
1047[16:02:56] <bipul> I would like to make node1 act as a router when i send ICMP request to node2.
1048[16:03:17] <joftr> bipul: currently, I'd say host1 is your router, which is not only routing but also NATing .... so any 123.x host will think packets from 122.y are coming from 123.1 (= host1)
1049[16:03:34] <bipul> exactly.
1050[16:05:33] <joftr> bipul: but the order of the rules in filter/FORWARD is "incorrect", for one direction .... I'd put rules 6 and 7 right after 1 und 2
1073[16:15:21] <joftr> bipul: kind of the rule of thumb: first have the "specific rules", which allow stuff, then the less specific which still ACCEPT (like the -i virbr0 -o virbr0) and finally the disallow everything else stuff (regarding virbr*, like the REJECT)
1074[16:16:15] <bipul> Oh okay got it. let me note it down.
1096[16:45:58] <candyban> I am trying to preseed my strech install, but I seem unable to get past the keyboard selection. Does anyone have a working preseed file which will not prompt for the keyboard layout?
1133[17:21:44] *** Quits: Achylles (~Achylles@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1134[17:21:48] <candyban> mspe: I have replaced-url
1135[17:23:05] <candyban> mspe: I have "d-i keyboard-configuration/xkb-keymap select us" ... or should I use "keyboard-configuration keyboard-configuration/xkb-keymap select us" instead?
1149[17:34:43] <cybercrypto> NCS_One: Yes. why? having any issues?
1150[17:35:10] <cybercrypto> correct. dist-upgrade should do :)
1151[17:35:22] <annadane> for point releases upgrades are simple. for upgrades between releases (for example, 9 -> 10) there are release notes and such
1152[17:36:30] <annadane> also, if you have internet access you do not have to wait (and should not, due to security updates) for the next point release to upgrade your system
1153[17:37:22] <NCS_One> cybercrypto: Debian has Linux 3.16 that was released August 3, 2014
1154[17:37:34] <annadane> then you might be on jessie
1155[17:37:47] <NCS_One> cybercrypto: also Firefox 45 that also is very old and with a lot of issues
1156[17:38:01] <annadane> cat /etc/debian_version
1157[17:38:15] <mspe> candyban: I did my preseed file by selecting lines from a log after a manual install, so I think it's the right owner, yes
1183[17:47:38] <annadane> basically with stable you can check for updates every week or 2 weeks or whatever, the most important stuff is on the security mailing list
1204[18:00:58] <annadane> NCS_One, apparently if you want to use the proprietary nvidia driver you'd need to use the nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver package or if you want to use the free implementation then use xserver-xorg-video-nouveau as it says
1205[18:01:23] <annadane> there are reasons for and against using both
1206[18:01:32] <annadane> what's your preferred desktop environment/window manager?
1207[18:01:55] <Something1> NCS_One, you install the package and configure it as per the wiki link above. You can specify security only (default) and it will update those automatically. You can let it send you e-mail about it too, if I recall correctly.
1208[18:02:00] <NCS_One> xfce
1209[18:02:27] <NCS_One> annadane: ^
1210[18:02:39] <annadane> then nouveau is probably fine. what you can do prior to the upgrade is (as root) update-alternatives --config glx and select the mesa option
1211[18:02:46] <annadane> (which also requires a reboot)
1212[18:03:11] *** Quits: rtmataeu34 (~energyd@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1213[18:03:12] <annadane> basically the situation is that nouveau is buggy because nvidia doesn't work with them, but nvidia is buggy in other ways
1214[18:03:40] <annadane> i use nouveau with xfce and don't have crashes. when i used KDE however, it would always break
1215[18:04:23] <NCS_One> annadane: but I already doing the upgrade
1217[18:05:27] <annadane> i guess doing it after the upgrade finishes it also fine, and you can have that reboot suffice for the upgrade and the switch to nouveau
1226[18:11:16] <annadane> i'm not sure what to do here. my intuitive feeling is to switch to mesa, reboot, and then continue with the rest of the upgrade, but o
1227[18:11:21] <annadane> but i'm not sure if that's wise or not*
1235[18:18:08] <at0m> i guess dpkg didnt come that far then..
1236[18:18:46] <at0m> i most often apt -f install when install fails, and personally that hasn't gotten me into trouble yet. but if annadane doesn't know, then who am i
1237[18:19:05] <annadane> please. i guess half the time
1258[18:25:21] <annadane> ok, here, i have an idea
1259[18:25:27] <at0m> "unsupported devices are present in the machine"
1260[18:25:29] <Gerowen> Any particular reason the Debian installer would fail because "No common CDROM drive was found" even though I'm installing from a USB stick?
1261[18:25:42] <at0m> NCS_One: does nvidia-detect tell you these are the right drivers?
1262[18:25:55] <annadane> at0m, it says their card isn't supported by the nvidia-driver package
1268[18:27:46] <at0m> annadane: i think NCS_One has to install nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver, not nvidia-legacy-384
1269[18:28:32] <annadane> right
1270[18:28:33] <at0m> NCS_One: i would purge all nvidia packages, then install nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver
1271[18:28:48] <annadane> well
1272[18:28:52] <annadane> hang on though
1273[18:29:02] *** sekizo is now known as schizo
1274[18:29:17] <annadane> if they purge all nvidia packages and are on nvidia currently then it will muck up their GUI and unless they're semi-proficient with irssi won't be able to reach us for support
1275[18:29:21] <NCS_One> at0m:nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver or xserver-xorg-video-nouveau right?
1276[18:29:32] <annadane> at the very least switch to nouveau before doing that
1277[18:29:55] <annadane> so we have to get the sequence right here as it involves multiple steps
1292[18:33:59] <annadane> 1) update-alternatives --config glx, switch to the option that says mesa - if not available, apt install xserver-xorg-video-nouveau; reboot 2) purge nvidia packages (it should be apt purge nvidia. - note the .) 3) apt install nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver
1293[18:34:04] <NCS_One> for me either driver is ok since it works ok
1321[18:46:42] <LikWidChz> Well I'll throw my question out there and see what I can snag.
1322[18:47:03] <LikWidChz> So trying to install samba on kali, installed it from apt-get, hosed the config file and thought what the hell ill just remove it and install it again, however it kept my hosed config, ive rm'ed the directory and when installing it agian it doesn't create it. Could someone school me a tad on what the issue is? hopefully its ovbious to you folk
1326[18:47:55] <BCMM> oh sorry didn't see that was said already
1327[18:48:43] <annadane> LikWidChz, if kali is anything like debian you can apt purge to get rid of config files unless it's saved as a dot file in your home directory, but again, really, it's better to ask kali support
1328[18:49:06] <LikWidChz> so something like apt-get purge samba?
1329[18:49:11] <annadane> probably
1330[18:49:27] <LikWidChz> worth a shot, how is purge different then remove?
1331[18:49:53] <annadane> as i said, gets rid of config files
1332[18:50:19] <LikWidChz> OOH ooh ohh gotcha gotcha, you did say that.
1336[18:51:41] <NCS_One> and it didn't went well :(
1337[18:52:04] <annadane> dot files in your home directory can be viewed by ls -a and they can also have configuration stuff which you can selectively delete to have programs erase their data/preferences and such... carefully. but you knew that because people running kali should know what they're doing
1338[18:52:24] <annadane> !whynotpentest
1339[18:52:30] <annadane> uh
1340[18:52:32] <annadane> !whynotpentesting
1341[18:52:32] <dpkg> For some reasons why Kali/Parrot/Other based-on-Debian penetration testing distributions shouldn't be used as a home desktop, see replaced-url
1343[18:52:47] *** Quits: vbutnaru (~vbutnaru@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1344[18:52:54] <NCS_One> can I change to mesa-diverted or should I install the nouveau?
1345[18:53:01] <annadane> mesa-diverted is nouveau
1346[18:53:10] <NCS_One> ok
1347[18:53:20] <annadane> hence why i said, "switch to the option that says mesa"
1348[18:53:50] <NCS_One> I'm on tty and getting the same errors
1349[18:53:52] <annadane> LikWidChz, and apt purge - if kali is anything like debian - will not remove dot files
1350[18:53:58] <LikWidChz> Yeah kali is on a laptop I have for screwing around. works good, wanted samba to easily files from windows -- nix without dicking around
1351[18:54:20] <LikWidChz> annadane, was looking in /etc for a samba or sa... something .conf file and didnt see anything
1352[18:54:23] <annadane> NCS_One, yeah well first of all get on nouveau, select the mesa option and reboot and then we can continue working on it
1353[18:54:37] <NCS_One> I did it
1354[18:54:46] <annadane> okay
1355[18:54:57] <annadane> did you install the legacy driver from nvidia?
1356[18:55:07] <NCS_One> no
1357[18:55:40] <NCS_One> I'm on tty with X
1358[18:55:49] <annadane> i suppose that'd be the next logical thing to try
1359[18:55:50] <NCS_One> s/with/without
1360[18:56:08] <annadane> LikWidChz, fair enough, it's just that you wouldn't believe the amount of "hi i'm on kali linux teach me how to be a hacker"
1375[18:58:24] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
1376[18:58:29] <annadane> not sure if it's specific to sid, though
1377[18:58:46] <rozie> probably is
1378[18:58:59] <LikWidChz> annadane, I 100% completely understand. Ive used the distros before and futzed around with them, but I know in a linux channel asking people for that kind of advice isnt exactly a great idea. I actually learned linux based off wanting to crack WEP back in 2005 so its funny now i'm learning some of the basics which is always funny. Start with compiling a kernel and end with how to install an application HAHA.
1379[18:59:07] <rozie> and yes, I tried to join and it's invite only
1380[18:59:16] <annadane> see the factoid - OFTC
1381[19:00:26] <rozie> !oftc
1382[19:00:27] <dpkg> OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may be connected to OFTC's network. replaced-url
1383[19:00:40] *** Quits: LucaTM (~LucaTM@replaced-ip) (Quit: To infinity and beyond...)
1384[19:00:46] <annadane> NCS_One, also i'm happy you managed to still connect to irc, i should have mentioned how to before you did all this in case something went wrong, that's my fault
1385[19:01:01] <NCS_One> annadane: can't install it
1386[19:01:25] <rozie> BTW any idea why I'm banned on #debian on IRCnet?
1387[19:01:37] <annadane> no idea. tor, vpn?
1388[19:01:44] <rozie> wasn't even active there
1389[19:02:03] <NCS_One> annadane: is there a way I can paste to debian.paste.org from tty?
1390[19:02:08] <rozie> no, not using Tor nor VPN on this IP
1391[19:02:08] <LikWidChz> annadane, I ran apt-get purge samba, apt purge samba "didn't find anything" rm -r the /etc/samba directory, then ran apt-get install samba, it installs the app but then the /etc/samba directory doesn't exist.. So any ideas? or is my method -100 points for me..
1402[19:06:22] <annadane> if apt purge samba didn't find anything then maybe the package isn't called samba
1403[19:06:27] <LikWidChz> this might sound dumb, wonder if I just created that directory after I purged the install then installed it again? maybe for whatever dumb reason the install doesn't create a directory..
1404[19:06:29] <annadane> look through your apt logs to see what the package name actually is
1405[19:06:58] <annadane> i have no idea what kali does but it's possible i suppose to have empty/non existent configs
1406[19:07:03] <LikWidChz> its possible ive been hosing and unhosing the incorrect thing.
1407[19:07:29] <annadane> maybe. anyway, as said, there's two places to look for configs, /etc and dot files, for the dot files you can ls -a | grep -i samba
1409[19:08:23] <annadane> LikWidChz, what's happening now though is there's someone with a debian question who needs help and it's getting scrolled off screen so at this point i'd just take it to kali support if my solutions haven't worked
1414[19:11:12] <annadane> NCS_One, at the very least, what does apt --fix-broken install say? pipe it to termbin like you just did but don't automatically press Y yet
1426[19:19:39] <at0m> i was trying to get you away from 384, which doesnt support your card.. did you remove all nvidia packages after update-glx switching to mesa?
1427[19:19:55] <at0m> (maybe it's different for nvidia-alternative, idk)
1428[19:20:11] <at0m> (maybe driver support is different for nvidia-alternative, idk)
1429[19:20:13] <NCS_One> at0m: you mean apt purge nvidia.?
1430[19:20:15] <annadane> yeah, i'd definitely just remove all the nvidia stuff after having switched to mesa/nouveau
1431[19:20:21] <at0m> NCS_One: yup
1432[19:20:39] <NCS_One> gives error
1433[19:20:39] <annadane> (i'm surprised switchint to nouveau forced you into a tty, though)
1434[19:20:46] *** Quits: mete (~mete@replaced-ip) (*.net *.split)
1509[19:38:04] <at0m> jhutchins: NCS_One doesn't need to if he only formats sda1 and leaves sda6 untouched
1510[19:38:26] <at0m> then assign sda6 to /home in fstab even after install and all is swell
1511[19:38:35] <jhutchins> NCS_One: Yes, you can do an install over an existing one, and as long as you skip formatting the partitions you won't overwrite /home, but you want a backup anyway, because "oops".
1534[19:52:09] <inquisitiv3> Is there any numbers of how many times there's package breakages in testing and sid? I'm considering running one of them on my machine, and want to make an informed decision.
1590[19:57:35] <annadane> the general answer is, depends on what your machine is for, and how much time you want to spend fixing it when it breaks. anecdotally, people have had few problems for years but you can of course run into issues. if you need the computer to work then the issues can affect your work. replaced-url
1591[19:57:45] <annadane> and it should not be used on servers
1593[19:58:06] <annadane> there are ways to get newer packages in debian stable, like backports, compiling your own packages, downloading tarballs, etc
1598[20:00:03] <annadane> the current Debian Project Leader recommends unstable over testing for users who don't want to use stable which is, i think, a testament to its solidity
1601[20:00:48] <annadane> if you have a rescue medium and have backups of your files and have access to another computer to troubleshoot then it's probably fine
1625[20:03:55] <inquisitiv3> annadane: Thanks! I've read the FAQ entry earlier, but I haven't seen any actual data on it. Do you have a link to there Chris recommends unstable? I know he talked about it on an episode of Destination Linux (podcast), but I don't think he said unstable > testing.
1626[20:04:41] <annadane> i can find a reddit link or something
1628[20:05:44] <inquisitiv3> ntd: I think it depends on the type of the release actually. I've read in various threads on Reddit (no official source) that Ubuntu LTS is based on testing, and the interim releases is based on unstable. A small detail.
1632[20:08:42] <kirk781> Shouldn't LTS be based on stable?
1633[20:09:11] <annadane> not the dpl but replaced-url
1634[20:10:03] <annadane> anyway, one reason to potentially prefer sid over testing: 1) packages can get removed from testing if they don't meet certain criteria 2) things get immediately fixed in sid and take longer in testing 3) package transitions can have delays in testing
1635[20:10:36] <annadane> i guess that's 3 reasons
1636[20:10:50] <ntd> trusty and xenial were both ahead of deb stable when released
1644[20:13:12] <annadane> i guess "work" is relative because yes there are only releases once every 2 years and there are packages uploaded with bug fixes that stable users don't get
1645[20:13:23] <annadane> lack of significant crashes, anyway
1646[20:13:32] <annadane> though as i said anecdotally people have run it just fine
1649[20:14:51] <inquisitiv3> annadane: Yeah. It's just that I subscribe to the belief that packages should get *all* bugfixes. And if the alternative is unstable I'll run that instead.
1650[20:14:54] <annadane> i mostly run stable as i currently only have the one computer; i'd probably run sid otherwise with the other one running stable as backup
1651[20:15:57] <inquisitiv3> It would be nice if Debian had interim releases like Ubuntu (6 or 9 months) that made newer packages available, while still having stability.
1652[20:16:43] <annadane> more people running unstable/testing = more people filing bugs so i'm not entirely on board with the debian community's shunning of users who want not-stable
1653[20:17:16] <annadane> unless it's "i want x latest package", then you *can* get it usually in stable and you take risk upon yourself by updating to something which at minimum requires more maintenance
1654[20:17:29] *** Quits: krabador (~krabador@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1662[20:20:11] <okamis> Hello, updated debian and also to vlc version 3.*. Vlc has stopped working. I get audio but no window at all to interact with
1663[20:20:37] <annadane> okamis, stable?
1664[20:21:59] <inquisitiv3> annadane: Regularly it seems that Debian folks in general (at least them that hangs out @ Reddit) is a little to conservative. Noting wrong wanting a stable OS, but there's limits.
1681[20:26:45] <annadane> inquisitiv3, one of the things which can turn people off is if they're stuck in an infinite boot loop or can't access x, it may be rare but in theory it can happen and you need to be prepared for it
1684[20:28:21] *** Quits: okamis (~okamis_@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1685[20:28:57] <jhutchins> inquisitiv3: New people have always complained about the fact that newer packages exist but take a long time to work the way into stable distributions. RedHat's even slower.
1686[20:29:44] <jhutchins> inquisitiv3: It's funny, but the same people don't seem to pay any attention to Windows software versions. Maybe because they're not public.
1697[20:38:30] <cybrNaut> some QA needed.. someone should probably remove the "agenda.app" package- it's defunct and undocumented => replaced-url
1698[20:39:23] <Habbie> cybrNaut, might be good to file that in the debian bug tracker
1699[20:40:40] <Habbie> cybrNaut, wait
1700[20:40:49] <Habbie> cybrNaut, on your url: Agenda is a calender application. This application is defunct. It's homepage and download link are down. You can use SimpleAgenda.app instead.
1701[20:41:06] <Habbie> cybrNaut, in the debian agenda.app changelog at replaced-url
1709[20:42:20] <inquisitiv3> jhutchins: What do you mean regarding the Windows software versions? The difference between Debian and Windows is that in Debian everything is frozen, while in Windows its just the OS that is frozen. And Windows have a much shorter release span since 10.
1710[20:43:04] <cybrNaut> Habbie: does that mean the version claimed to be working is in the repo?
1823[22:09:49] <dpkg> If you don't know enough about Debian to do this yourself, you won't know enough about Debian to fix the problems you *will* encounter. Please spend some months or years learning about Debian first. Sorry.
1827[22:09:55] <dpkg> Habbie: have you tried replaced-url
1828[22:09:56] <annadane> i'm stupid.
1829[22:09:58] <NCS_One> hi
1830[22:10:12] <annadane> so then you just need the one line
1831[22:10:15] <annadane> sorry
1832[22:10:16] <Habbie> annadane, so i'd say the instructions just map, but 'sid/main amd64' looks different to me
1833[22:10:18] <NCS_One> annadane: I was able to upgrade it
1834[22:10:24] <annadane> good news
1835[22:10:25] <Habbie> then again my sid just says 'sid main'
1836[22:10:52] <NCS_One> annadane: what commands should I use to check if all went ok?
1837[22:11:06] <annadane> dina16, btw, what did you mean by server? i hope you're not running sid on a server
1838[22:11:35] <dina16> i fix it all okayy
1839[22:11:38] <dina16> thnk's
1840[22:11:42] <Habbie> dina16, good!
1841[22:12:22] <Habbie> so, just for me to get things clear, sid is forever unstable, but testing cycles through names? (and those names become 'stable' when testing cycles to the next name?)
1842[22:12:24] <annadane> NCS_One, er... i guess you ought to be able to check if it's installed with dpkg -l nvidia-340xx-legacy-driver or whatever the package is called
1843[22:12:33] <annadane> Habbie, yeah
1844[22:12:39] <Habbie> thanks
1845[22:12:59] <Habbie> do stable and testing cycle at the exact same time or is there some delay?
1846[22:13:11] <Habbie> (this is useless curiosity now)
1847[22:13:14] <annadane> anyway, IIRC you had like 250+ packages that needed to be upgraded, right? you can check if they're all updated via apt update
1848[22:13:46] <annadane> well, stable releases once every 2 years, testing gets packages from sid within 2-10 days
1849[22:14:01] <Habbie> that i get
1850[22:14:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1073
1851[22:14:06] <Habbie> so every 2 years, stable 'changes names'
1852[22:14:10] <Habbie> does testing change name on that same day?
1853[22:14:13] <annadane> yep
1854[22:14:17] <Habbie> thanks
1855[22:14:23] <dina16> i used sid like Rolling release
1856[22:14:25] <annadane> buster is testing now but then when buster becomes stable testing will be bullseye
1857[22:14:28] <Habbie> do we know what comes after buster?
1858[22:14:30] <Habbie> ah
1859[22:15:41] <annadane> this is also why we recommend people not to put "stable" in their sources list and to only use release names like stretch etc because when buster is the new stable ...
1862[22:16:16] <Habbie> how about putting 'testing' in sources.list? that's like unstable with a small bit of QA?
1863[22:16:26] <Habbie> which, i guess, slows down a lot near the two year cycle
1864[22:16:37] <annadane> testing will always track testing, so if that's what you want then fine, as long as you're aware of that
1865[22:16:54] <Habbie> i feel testing would be a pretty decent development VM
1866[22:17:02] <annadane> sid will always be unstable but stable and testing will change based on releases
1867[22:17:36] <Habbie> i gave fedora rawhide a shot as a development VM for a while, but every time i left it alone for a month it would need so much time to run updates
1868[22:17:43] <Habbie> i imagine testing and sid would be similar
1869[22:18:07] <NCS_One> annadane: I'm using the nouveau driver
1870[22:18:23] <annadane> ok, so it's up to you to decide whether you want nouveau or nvidia
1871[22:18:43] <annadane> if you want nvidia then update-alternatives --config glx and switch to nvidia
1872[22:18:44] <annadane> and reboot
1873[22:18:51] <NCS_One> nouveau is working ok, I'm going to keep it
1874[22:19:04] <annadane> yeah, until it crashes - i literally just had one earlier with xfce
1875[22:19:29] <annadane> but it probably also depends on your computer
1876[22:20:18] <annadane> anyway, weren't you the one with many packages to upgrade? you should probably upgrade the system
1877[22:20:22] <NCS_One> annadane: are there any commands I can use to check if the upgrade was a full success?
1878[22:20:36] <annadane> yeah, type apt update and see if there's anything it still needs to install
1879[22:20:37] <NCS_One> I already upgraded it
1880[22:21:41] <annadane> Habbie, note also "bit of QA" also can mean significant delays
1881[22:21:43] <NCS_One> annadane: "All packages are up to date." :)
1882[22:21:46] <Habbie> annadane, yes
1883[22:21:51] <annadane> there are distros with actual rolling releases and debian isn't... exactly one of them
1884[22:22:05] <Habbie> annadane, i always wonder how unstable compares to distros that advertise as rolling
1886[22:22:40] <annadane> NCS_One, and i hope you rebooted afterwards, due to (minimum) kernel upgrades
1887[22:22:41] <Habbie> 3.1.7 is a good read
1888[22:22:47] <annadane> now, keep on top of your updates
1889[22:23:14] <annadane> oh sorry yeah i guess i meant to link 3.1.7
1890[22:23:17] <Habbie> np
1891[22:23:19] <Habbie> i read both :)
1892[22:23:52] <annadane> so, yeah. tempting to think of testing as being "stable is too old, unstable is crashy, i'll use testing! perfect solution!" but that's not really the case
1893[22:23:57] <NCS_One> annadane: thanks for you help
1894[22:24:12] <annadane> some people even recommend not using testing on an internet-facing machine at all - it also gets the slowest security updates
1895[22:24:17] <annadane> different opinions from people i guess
1896[22:24:21] <Habbie> ah yes
1897[22:24:31] <Habbie> as unstable will get updates 'pretty darn soon' which includes security fixes
1898[22:24:45] <Habbie> but the trickle down to testing might be stuck due to RC tickets
1899[22:24:54] <annadane> (unstable isn't GENERALLY crashy but yes it has happened and you need to be prepared)
1900[22:26:17] <petn-randall> I wouldn't recommend anything but stable on machines serving things to the internet. Even sid can get security updates late if the newer, bug-free version fails to build from source.
1902[22:26:55] <Habbie> petn-randall, that makes sense
1903[22:26:57] <annadane> right. there *are* distros which do actually specialize in rolling, i guess the two most known being arch and opensuse tumbleweed
1904[22:27:04] <annadane> also a "fork" of sid called siduction
1905[22:27:21] <annadane> oh, nixos too i suppose
1906[22:27:39] <Habbie> annadane, forgive my continued ignorance while you keep answering awesomely - i always thought opensuse tumbleweed was just like fedora rawhide or debian unstable, what am i missing?
1907[22:27:52] <annadane> oh i can't really answer questions on that
1908[22:27:53] <Habbie> well nixos is special in that you get some control over versions, right?
1909[22:27:54] <annadane> i have no idea
1910[22:27:56] <Habbie> annadane, alright
1911[22:28:05] <annadane> yeah you can install multiple versions of packages at once
1912[22:28:13] <Habbie> i do know about arch, i have a few coworkers who swear by it and will occasionally swear at it
1913[22:28:33] <Habbie> but thanks to them (and thanks to me being on macOS with brew which also is 'rolling'), things happening in debian rarely surprise us ;)
1914[22:28:41] <annadane> stable in my mind is the perfect mix of everything, you really don't need new packages except for a few exceptions and you can get those through various means
1915[22:28:53] <Habbie> yes, full agree on that
1916[22:28:57] <annadane> i should mention, nvidia makes rolling anything significantly harder. screw them.
1972[23:25:48] <yahal> hi I've got a little problem with ufw, after installing programms from jessie-backports and disable the ufw, I cannot enable it without getting a python trackback failure replaced-url
2024[23:52:51] <yahal> petn-randall: the pid the traceback error revealed is not activ right now, could it bit, that there is a pid-file which causing this error?
2025[23:54:07] <petn-randall> yahal: Could be, but it shouldn't produce a traceback in that case.
2027[23:54:31] <petn-randall> yahal: Btw, jessie is only supported through jessie-lts, you might want to consider upgrading at some point.
2028[23:55:29] <annadane> rydare, so uh... my best guess is either remove the packages or try downgrading to testing but not all functionality is even included in experimental, i might try removing and then installing from testing
2029[23:55:37] <annadane> best guess, someone may know more
2030[23:55:46] <yahal> I thinking about to try a system upgrade to stretch, but I am not sure it is supported by my hoster. They allow only jessie as latest debian to be preinstalled
2031[23:56:08] <rydare> annadane: thank you for your help. i just need to find out which packages are from the repository
2032[23:56:28] <rydare> this would really be more easy if i could get an xsession going lol