People who Joins , Parts or Quits a chatroom
this is #debian an IRC -Channel at freenode (freenode IRC service closed 2021-06-01)
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80 [00:39:45] <wym> 有没有中文的用户啊？
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192 [01:29:26] <ZaZaQR> hey, i live CD a debian 9 cinnamon, i can't get the wifi to
193 [01:29:26] <ZaZaQR> work. i read online that i need to install the drivers. is it
194 [01:29:26] <ZaZaQR> in the OS itself or do i need to download it else where?
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206 [01:35:22] <Brigo> ZaZaQR, most probably you need the firmware
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212 [01:36:53] <Nawab> join ##ChatterZ guys! lets chat and be friends!
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218 [01:40:12] <ciarullo> hi there.. trying to format a usb with mkdosfs and this was the output: unable to open /dev/sdb: Device or resource busy
219 [01:40:19] <ciarullo> how can i solve it?
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222 [01:40:54] <cef> ciarullo: sounds like it's in use. You might need to unmount it first.
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231 [01:41:31] <ciarullo> cef, i already did it
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233 [01:42:05] <ZaZaQR> where do you update the firmware?
234 [01:42:06] <cef> ciarullo: How did you do it? Don't eject through a GUI, that fully removes the device from the system
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238 [01:43:12] <ciarullo> new error lol... attribute "partition" not found
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240 [01:43:45] <ciarullo> cef, as i always do.. unmount /dev/sdxx ... sudo mkdosfs /dev/sdxx -I
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247 [01:45:03] <cef> ciarullo: have seen some drives where there's no real partition table. eg: they've made the whole drive - /dev/sdb - a filesystem, instead of as a partition. run `fdisk /dev/sdb` to check
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251 [01:47:15] <ciarullo> i think i should say it before.. it was a bootable drive with linux mint
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253 [01:49:04] <cef> ciarullo: ok. were you trying to replace the whole drive with an fs, or add a files partition to it?
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257 [01:49:59] <ciarullo> i was trying to replace the whole drive because before installing linux on that machine i need to copy some files from windows to the pen drive
258 [01:51:03] <ciarullo> ok ok ok... now it seems to work
259 [01:51:09] <cef> ciarullo: :D
260 [01:51:34] <ciarullo> thank you anyways :D
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262 [01:51:38] <cef> no probs.
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269 [01:54:45] <awal1> any cli utility for check security bugs affecting my system?
270 [01:56:13] <rant> dpkg, apt-listbugs?
271 [01:56:13] <dpkg> apt-listbugs (aptitude install apt-listbugs) is available since Debian 3.1 "Sarge". When installed, it will fetch the list of critical <BTS> bugs that pertain to any packages being installed. It also allows you to <pin> a version to prevent upgrades to any packages you discover to be too risky. See also <apt-listchanges>.
272 [01:56:28] <awal1> one can use tags option for apt-listbugs(example: "apt-listbugs -T security -s all list firefox") but i was wonderin gif there is some app/way for list all security bugs affecting all pkgs installed in my system
273 [01:56:32] <abrotman> dpkg: tell awal1 about debsecan
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275 [01:57:34] <annadane> if there are security updates then just apt update and install upgrades
276 [01:57:36] <awal1> abrotman, ok, lets check debsecan
277 [01:57:44] <annadane> but TIL debsecan
278 [01:57:48] <awal1> i think it comes with devscripts
279 [01:57:55] <awal1> i already have it
280 [01:58:48] <annadane> oh wow i have a *lot* of CVEs show up
281 [01:59:25] <awal1> hm, debsecan doesn't come with devscripts
282 [01:59:31] <awal1> i must install it
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289 [02:02:27] <awal1> abrtman, nice
290 [02:02:41] <awal1> thanks
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299 [02:09:43] <awal1> cve vs bug?
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302 [02:10:16] <awal1> when a "security hole" is reported as bug and when as cve?
303 [02:11:32] <awal1> for example why #895147 is not a cve ?
304 [02:11:32] <judd> Bug replaced-url
305 [02:12:58] <rjsalts> awal1: when the person who finds a security flaw, or the upstream they report it to registers for a CVE through mitre it becomes a CVE and gets categorized and triaged and reported in a certain way
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307 [02:13:37] <rant> I'd say CVE are more for things widely affecting everyone where normal securiy bugs are more narrowly scoped
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309 [02:13:46] <rjsalts> awal1: but you don't have to report your security bug through mitre
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311 [02:14:23] <rjsalts> replaced-url
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319 [02:16:07] <awal1> rjsalts, rant, ok, I think I have a better idea now
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345 [02:27:14] <thelucky1ike> hi, what would be most up-to-date way for running ipsec on debian? seems they stopped work on openswan for last year
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365 [02:39:33] <thelucky1ike> aha, strongswan it is, ty
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449 [03:33:26] <Faust> Hey
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454 [03:34:11] <Faust> I am curious about what language Debian is written.
455 [03:34:27] <Faust> Aside from the kernel
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457 [03:35:08] <tonymke> Debian isn't "written" so much as "collected". It's a collection of packages - applications - put together and configured a certain way.
458 [03:35:14] <tonymke> Hopefully that makes sense.
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468 [03:41:05] <Faust> Since the packages are independent, that probably means there are many languages at play, right?
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470 [03:41:38] <Faust> Do u know if there's a dominant one?
471 [03:41:43] <__m4ch1n3__> libraries are c/cpp
472 [03:42:04] <__m4ch1n3__> guess depends on how lowlevel something is
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476 [03:42:52] <tonymke> Predominantly C/C++, next closest being python.
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478 [03:43:36] <somiaj> a lot of perl around, though most of that is the older stuff, python seems to be more popular these days
479 [03:43:46] <somiaj> you can also get ruby, shell scripts, really depends on the software being used
480 [03:44:37] <Ouroboro> the stuff that ties the packages together is mostly shell script
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482 [03:46:16] <Faust> Interesting.
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485 [03:46:39] <Faust> I never dealt with Perl. No idea what to think about it.
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488 [03:47:14] <tonymke> It will... get you very good with regular expressions :)
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491 [03:47:34] <somiaj> perl has some nice things about it, it was one of the original popular interprited langauges, with a c like syntax.
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493 [03:48:33] <Faust> tonymke, u mean RE from automata theory?
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497 [03:49:50] <Faust> somiaj, so it's like the java from the interpreted languages?
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499 [03:50:17] <Ouroboro> it is almost the complete opposite of java :P
500 [03:50:22] <tonymke> Ahh... regular expressions are a syntax for searching and editing text. They are very dense and people can find them intimidating at first.
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507 [03:53:57] <__m4ch1n3__> and syntax highlight
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509 [03:54:55] <somiaj> Faust: java is partly compiled, and requires a java virtual machine, but kinda, the common ones are perl, python and ruby
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511 [03:55:04] <somiaj> php is also one
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515 [03:55:37] <Ouroboro> but, java is very clean by design, perl is... not
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517 [03:56:21] <Ouroboro> on the other hand, java is 100x more verbose
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523 [03:57:00] <Faust> Ouroboro, I felt ur scars with it in that comment.
524 [03:57:20] <Faust> tonymke, didn't know about this type of regular expression
525 [03:57:36] <Ouroboro> Faust: they are the same RE
526 [03:57:37] <Faust> seems cool, I will take a look at it. Thanks =D
527 [03:57:43] <Ouroboro> just an application
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529 [03:58:42] <Faust> somiaj, is ruby also interpreted? O_o
530 [03:58:57] <Faust> I thought 'twas compiled.
531 [03:59:29] <somiaj> python is partly compiled too, mostly this is just to make the interpetation faster
532 [03:59:53] <somiaj> but the compiled isn't like C/C++, the result is mostly pure text, plus some additional data to classify the objects
533 [04:00:00] <Ouroboro> but, yes, all of these languages are pretty much the same, if you want something slightly different, try tex or haskell or something
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535 [04:00:21] <somiaj> I woudln't say tex as a programing language, it is mostly a typesetter
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537 [04:01:08] <Ouroboro> well, people may use it that way, but it is a complete language
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539 [04:02:09] <Faust> OOOOHhh so they're the same RE
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542 [04:02:29] <Faust> Now I understand the syntax highlight u said.
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547 [04:04:08] <Faust> I didn't know I could use them for search too.
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551 [04:04:48] <__m4ch1n3__> python makes lot fun, moving more and more from bash to python
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555 [04:05:35] <__m4ch1n3__> and there are so many awesome modules for python like prompt-toolkit
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560 [04:06:55] <pennTeller> Hi guys anyone know if it's possible to record audio from a webcam microphone using the terminal?
561 [04:07:31] <Faust> pennTeller, I think u can do that with ffmpeg.
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563 [04:08:01] <pennTeller> Faust I appreciate the feedback
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565 [04:08:31] <Faust> _m4ch1n3_, but Python is slow '----
566 [04:08:46] <Red_M> python does not have to be slow
567 [04:09:00] <Red_M> you can run C in python
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569 [04:09:13] <Red_M> with compiled extensions
570 [04:09:17] <annadane> i mean i don't think it would be used by so many thousands of people if it were slow
571 [04:09:31] <Red_M> if you use python the wrong way it is slow
572 [04:09:42] <Red_M> if you don't use multiprocessing properly it is slow
573 [04:09:56] <Red_M> it is very easy to make anything "slow"
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580 [04:14:37] <Faust> pennTeller, =D
581 [04:15:03] <Faust> Red_M, never heard about these compiled extensions. I will take a look.
582 [04:15:55] <Faust> And running C *in* Python? That's confusing...
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584 [04:17:00] <__m4ch1n3__> lot modules are written in c/cpp, like pyqt5, c libraries with python byndings
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589 [04:18:46] <Faust> wait wait. It may be possible to make anything slow, but the more barebones ones like C are naturally faster, aren't they?
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591 [04:20:05] <Ouroboro> not necessarily, e.g. java can be faster than c in some cases because of jitc
592 [04:20:51] <__m4ch1n3__> pythons syntax is very special and simpler. it has lot syntax sugar
593 [04:22:15] <__m4ch1n3__> and it is EAFP by design
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596 [04:22:27] <annadane> easy as first ...
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598 [04:23:13] <Ouroboro> easy as fish porridge
599 [04:23:33] <whjms> Easier to Ask Forgiveness than Permission
600 [04:23:49] <annadane> ok, your acronyms make no sense, i officially quit the internet
601 [04:24:08] <whjms> TTFN!
602 [04:24:19] <__m4ch1n3__> replaced-url
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604 [04:24:58] <annadane> SOATFATF
605 [04:25:09] <annadane> god damn it
606 [04:25:13] <annadane> SLATFATF *
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608 [04:25:44] <somiaj> notes that discussion of programing langauges isn't really debian support...
609 [04:26:26] <Faust> Ouroboro, even java? wow
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611 [04:26:48] <Faust> somiaj, I got caught into it :D
612 [04:26:53] <Faust> but u're right
613 [04:27:00] <Ouroboro> annadane: super lazy assholes truly fail at taming foals?
614 [04:27:18] <Ouroboro> ok, i am done here
615 [04:27:18] <annadane> #debian-annadanes-going-away-party sorry i mean #debian-offtopic
616 [04:27:30] <annadane> Ouroboro, so long and thanks for all the fish
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619 [04:29:09] <Faust> whjms, Thanks. I initially found European Association of Fish Pathologists as the first definition, but imagined it wasn't that.
620 [04:29:17] <Faust> Anyways. Thanks guys
621 [04:29:24] <Faust> Learned a lot.
622 [04:29:33] <whjms> Python code can be fishy sometimes
623 [04:29:41] <Faust> I look up more about these topics
624 [04:29:45] <Faust> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
625 [04:29:51] <Faust> whmjs, LOL
626 [04:30:09] <Faust> See ya
627 [04:30:16] <whjms> o/
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629 [04:30:18] <Faust> Take care o/
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636 [04:31:38] <JordiGH> what's current stable codename?
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638 [04:31:42] <annadane> stretch
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640 [04:33:20] <whjms> Is it a bad idea to use 'stable' instead of 'stretch' in my sources.list? I understand buster is over a year away, so I'm just curious
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644 [04:34:02] <JordiGH> stretch, huh
645 [04:34:07] <JordiGH> So I already was at current stable.
646 [04:34:09] <JordiGH> Silly me.
647 [04:34:22] <JordiGH> I thought it was jessie or something
648 [04:34:22] <Ouroboro> whjms: yes, because you will not remember that for a year
649 [04:34:23] <annadane> you should use stretch, so that when next stable releases you don't run into nasty surprises
650 [04:34:48] <whjms> Aha gotcha
651 [04:34:48] <annadane> jessie is oldstable
652 [04:34:57] <awal1> whjms, 'stable' is the branch name, stretch is the codename of that branch,
653 [04:35:05] <__m4ch1n3__> or push it to the limit and go testing
654 [04:35:31] <whjms> I'm used to using unstable so stable stuff is new to me haha
655 [04:35:58] <awal1> no difference until the last minute of next stable version being available
656 [04:36:09] <awal1> :P
657 [04:36:22] <Ouroboro> it is pretty much the same, except with two fewer letters
658 [04:37:16] <annadane> FYI: new intel-microcode was released, so stable users are advised to update
659 [04:37:33] <awal1> whjms, i guess you know what means 'unstable' vs 'sid' right?
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662 [04:37:57] <Ouroboro> annadane: argh, again?
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664 [04:38:06] <annadane> yes except you can use either name because it will always be unstable and you'll already be running into nasty surprises
665 [04:38:07] <awal1> so same for stable vs past/current/next codename
666 [04:38:21] <whjms> awal1: right, thanks
667 [04:38:35] <whjms> annadane: haha true
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671 [04:39:35] <awal1> if you keep 'stable' in your sources file, when next stable is released when you upgrade your system you'll get the new stable
672 [04:40:03] <awal1> use codename, now stretch, if you want to avoid that, if that is your "interest"
673 [04:40:16] <annadane> you should avoid that because you should read the release notes first
674 [04:40:35] <somiaj> The basic idea being, you should upgrade at a time of your choosing over when the release happens.
675 [04:40:38] <Ouroboro> how do vps providers handle microcode updates? do they just shut down all the vpses?
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677 [04:42:01] <somiaj> Ouroboro: might depend on the vps provider, but if running server hardware, often times firmware updates are more the approach than microcode. But yes, they would have to shutdown for matiance (usually scheduled) and bring thigns back up
678 [04:42:36] <Ouroboro> this is going to be fun
679 [04:43:11] <whjms> I should probably cancel my VPS subscription for my unused server…
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682 [04:45:16] <Ouroboro> i wonder whether they would send an acpi shutdown or suspend it transparently
683 [04:45:40] <Ouroboro> both methods have issues
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692 [04:54:08] <somiaj> Ouroboro: you may want to ask your vps. I'm sure they each have their own policy of how they handel firmware updates and kernel reboots of the hyperserver.
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702 [05:02:40] <Ouroboro> i am just thinking that it was possibly a bad idea to use features that prevent an unattended boot
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741 [05:27:47] <Toadisattva> maybe this is a better place to ask than ##linux
742 [05:27:50] <Toadisattva> I expect this is just a permissions issue: using debian 8 jessie with lxde desktop, in my desktop preferences the "show trash can on desktop" is selected and greyed out, but there is no trash can icon on the desktop, neither is it present in pcmanfm wehther I click it in the layout menu or not
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753 [05:41:31] <__m4ch1n3__> what happens when you type "trash:///" as path in thunar without ""
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785 [06:02:02] <Toadisattva> using pcmanfm instead of thunar
786 [06:02:17] <Toadisattva> when I type trash:/// in the bar it gives me an operation not permitted error
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791 [06:04:41] <well_laid_lawn> Toadisattva: see if this helps replaced-url
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797 [06:12:32] <Toadisattva> thank you!
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871 [07:07:43] <Toadisattva> gvfs did it!
872 [07:07:46] <Toadisattva> thanks!
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1022 [08:50:50] <drzacek> Hello there
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1025 [08:52:06] <iveqy> Hi, I've compiled and installed dwm manually (a window manager) but it doesn't show up in the list of available window manager even when I add an file to /usr/share/xsessions
1026 [08:52:15] <drzacek> two days ago I spotted some wild panel on my desktop. I'm on debian 9 with plasma. The panel floats slightly above the taskbar, doesn't seem like to belong anywhere, not sure what it is or does but it annoys me very much
1027 [08:52:29] <iveqy> what do I've do to to be able to use dwm as my desktop environment?
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1029 [08:52:58] <drzacek> uploading picture now
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1038 [08:54:20] <drzacek> replaced-url
1039 [08:54:53] <drzacek> iveqy, what dm?
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1044 [08:55:33] <Haohmaru> drzacek can't you click it.. any menus from it?
1045 [08:55:38] <iveqy> drzacek: I don't know. The default in stretch? Running update-alternatives --config x-session-manager says: gnome-session
1046 [08:55:58] <drzacek> Haohmaru, yeah I can
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1049 [08:56:25] <drzacek> I can go to "preferences" -> window pops up with title "uim-pref-qt4"
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1051 [08:56:53] <Haohmaru> good then, you have a name
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1054 [08:57:26] <iveqy> drzacek: how do I find out which dm I've?
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1056 [08:58:05] <drzacek> iveqy, cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager
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1059 [08:58:18] <iveqy> drzacek: usr/sbin/gdm3
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1062 [08:58:45] <iveqy> so obviously I've gdm3, and gdm3 should listen to /usr/share/xsessions/* right?
1063 [08:58:48] <drzacek> iveqy, I'm not sure but I'm guessing it will be the same for all of them dms
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1065 [08:58:49] <drzacek> replaced-url
1066 [08:59:03] <drzacek> iveqy, I would assume it should
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1250 [10:47:40] <apus> hi, i'm trying to install a minimal server version of debian 9.4. I've got the netinst cd iso. For whatever reason i don't ever get to a package selection screen, where i can deselect stuff like X Desktop, libreoffice, etc. What am i doing wrong?
1251 [10:48:07] <petn-randall> apus: It's usually fairly at the end.
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1253 [10:49:23] <Guest37559> "Current status: 5 (+5) upgradable, 28002 (+2) new." I know about `apt list --upgradeable` to list out the 5 upgradeable packages; but, how could I get a list of those 2 new packages?
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1255 [10:49:43] <colo-work> apus, make sure you use "expert" installation mode
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1260 [10:50:21] <rocketmagnet> hi everyone, i'm using stable, where is the php5-mysql package gone ?
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1262 [10:50:41] <babilen> Guest28683: There is no search for that
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1264 [10:50:52] <rocketmagnet> is a bot here that can search for packages ?
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1267 [10:51:11] <babilen> rocketmagnet: There is, but how would that help you?
1268 [10:51:22] <babilen> dpkg: bat
1269 [10:51:23] <dpkg> In order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use replaced-url
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1271 [10:51:45] <babilen> rocketmagnet: This ^ might help in debugging whatever issue you're having
1272 [10:52:06] <petn-randall> rocketmagnet: php5 is not in stable (stretch), it only ships php7.
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1276 [10:52:42] <babilen> There is php-mysql though
1277 [10:52:48] <petn-randall> rocketmagnet: Since security support in upstream is running out in 5 months, it's time to upgrade :)
1278 [10:52:50] <rocketmagnet> so which package does i have to install to get php7 support for my apache ? i tried php7.0-cgi but that doesn't change a thing
1279 [10:52:52] <babilen> So it shouldn't be problematic to get hold of that
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1281 [10:53:01] <rocketmagnet> petn-randall: ^
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1285 [10:53:15] <babilen> rocketmagnet: Which problem are you actually trying to solve/debug ?
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1288 [10:53:48] <rocketmagnet> my apache doesn't support any php code
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1290 [10:54:07] <petn-randall> rocketmagnet: Depends on how you want to run the PHP code ...
1291 [10:54:17] <DrBunsen> rocketmagnet: did you install the php packages?
1292 [10:54:21] <babilen> Are you, mayhaps, looking for libapache2-mod-php ?
1293 [10:54:28] <rocketmagnet> i've made an index.php with <?php echo("WELCOME"); ?> and i get output in the html file
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1295 [10:54:45] <rocketmagnet> babilen: sound reasonable
1296 [10:54:49] <rocketmagnet> thank you
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1298 [10:55:05] <petn-randall> rocketmagnet: CGI, fastcgi, FPM, ...
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1301 [10:55:35] <petn-randall> Oh right, mod_php also still exists.
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1303 [10:55:40] * petn-randall shudders.
1304 [10:55:48] <rocketmagnet> babilen: and how do i install the mysql packages so php has mysql support ?
1305 [10:55:52] <babilen> I typically use nginx with fastcgi
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1307 [10:56:11] <babilen> fastcgi isn't a bad approach
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1309 [10:56:28] <rocketmagnet> i want to stick to what i know
1310 [10:56:31] <blaztek> babilen: good combo!
1311 [10:56:43] <babilen> rocketmagnet: There's php-mysql - but it makes sense to think about the best way to run PHP in your setup and to pick the best toolstack for your situation
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1314 [10:56:46] <rocketmagnet> i have to learn alot (like every other coder)
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1316 [10:57:03] <rocketmagnet> ok
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1318 [10:57:22] <rocketmagnet> is it just a setup thing or does it changes the way i've the php code mysql ?
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1322 [10:57:44] <babilen> As I said: I'm quite fond of nginx and fastcgi, but you can naturally keep using Apache. Also look into the different ones mentioned by petn-randall
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1326 [10:58:16] <babilen> Sorry, I don't quite follow. What do you mean by "is it just a setup thing or does it changes the way i've the php code mysql" ?
1327 [10:58:21] <rocketmagnet> i'll do when i've time, i've a deathline to finish :X
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1329 [10:59:36] <apus> colo-work: can you please tell me where i can activate it?
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1331 [11:00:18] <rocketmagnet> babilen: but thanks a lot for the effort helping me !
1332 [11:00:20] <colo-work> apus, when you boot into the installer, there's supposed to be a menu there (where you can choose between normal and expert mode, and the graphical variants of the two)
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1335 [11:01:19] <rocketmagnet> babilen: btw. does this channel has a bot that can help with a few things ?
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1344 [11:04:44] <babilen> rocketmagnet: It does have multiple bots: replaced-url
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1346 [11:05:24] <DrBunsen> Does anyone have any experience with nextcloud here? I asked my question in the nextcloud irc, but to no avail. I setup nextcloud and the loading after login takes way too long even in the same network, and the interface looks all funky replaced-url
1347 [11:05:24] <DrBunsen> see no new errors in the log, but the slow loading and funky interface remains. I hope anyone would please take a look, since I am at a loss here.
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1356 [11:09:32] <apus> colo-work: for me i have bios grub boot options: Graphical Debian Installer, Debian Installer, Debian Installer with speech ... At no point does any of these ask me if i want to install in expert mode. no matter how i arrive at the partitioning, after i select ok, write changes to disk, it starts copying files.
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1359 [11:10:11] <Kelsar> apus: selection comes after it copies some base things afaik
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1361 [11:11:16] <akd> I was able to use accent with my "English (US Alternative Layout", I was able to write "é" when pressing (ALT-GR + ") + e , now I am writing "'e". I want to restore my ALT-GR . I dont remember where is the kebyoard configuration. I am on Linux Debian Stretch With a Cinnamon desktop. Any Help ?
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1370 [11:15:30] <petn-randall> DrBunsen: apparmor or selinux running? Which OS release is this?
1371 [11:16:49] <DrBunsen> petn-randall: just debian stable, whatever the default of the two is, selinux right?
1372 [11:17:09] <petn-randall> DrBunsen: None of them is installed by default.
1373 [11:17:20] <DrBunsen> neither ;)
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1375 [11:18:22] <petn-randall> DrBunsen: Which user does the nextcloud files and directory belong to?
1376 [11:18:49] <DrBunsen> replaced-url
1377 [11:19:39] <petn-randall> DrBunsen: Can you show me the output of 'ls -l /var/replaced-url
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1379 [11:20:07] <apus> Kelsar: colo-work: found it, thanks!
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1381 [11:20:59] <DrBunsen> ooo, that is another user! guess I should redo my chown ;)
1382 [11:21:00] <DrBunsen> -rwxrwxrwx 1 bunsen bunsen 1273 Jun 12 14:30 /var/replaced-url
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1384 [11:21:08] <petn-randall> :)
1385 [11:21:33] <petn-randall> DrBunsen: and chmod 777 is *never* a good idea.
1386 [11:22:00] <DrBunsen> I know, I just wanted to see if it would change anything
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1389 [11:22:55] <DrBunsen> It is still slow and it still looks like the image I supplied :'(
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1392 [11:23:40] <petn-randall> DrBunsen: What command did you run to fix permissions?
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1394 [11:24:21] <DrBunsen> chown -R replaced-url
1395 [11:24:21] <DrBunsen> it is now owned by replaced-url
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1404 [11:34:52] <rephlexie> imo looks like a php/table issue, template being garbled etc etc
1405 [11:35:24] <Haohmaru> aww crap, quadro NVS (NV17GL) seems to be uber uber old, and there's no driver for it?
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1407 [11:35:37] <Haohmaru> i mean no "nvidia" driver
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1410 [11:36:25] <petn-randall> Haohmaru: It should work with the FOSS drivers.
1411 [11:36:33] <Haohmaru> nouveau?
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1413 [11:36:59] <Haohmaru> yeah, it worked, but it has no idea about the monitor's resoltions
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1415 [11:37:00] <petn-randall> Haohmaru: yes
1416 [11:37:45] <Haohmaru> i'll have to pretend i'm a cvt/xrandr h4x0r again
1417 [11:37:54] <petn-randall> Haohmaru: How is it connected? Not all standards require a backchannel for reporting supported resolutions (VGA for example).
1418 [11:38:07] <Haohmaru> it's VGA of course
1419 [11:38:12] <petn-randall> :)
1420 [11:38:12] <Haohmaru> the monitor is also "old"
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1501 [12:26:56] <AliceKelly> good morning
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1547 [12:59:02] <michael2> if the kernel contains binary blobs - how is it that it is in main? shouldn't the kernel be in non-free or contrib?
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1549 [12:59:55] <jelly> michael2: which binary blobs and which kernel?
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1551 [13:00:15] <michael2> linux kernel
1552 [13:00:28] <jelly> do you have a specific example?
1553 [13:00:38] <michael2> of the binary blobs?
1554 [13:00:58] <jelly> yes, and the kernel package that carries them
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1560 [13:02:56] <Kelsar> firmware blobs
1561 [13:03:24] <michael2> jelly: I dont know of any specific examples Im not familiar with the kernel source code, but I read that it is necessary for the kernel to contain various blobs
1562 [13:03:44] <jelly> michael2: where did you read that
1563 [13:04:26] <FinalX> ,v nginx
1564 [13:04:27] <judd> Package: nginx on amd64 -- wheezy: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4; wheezy-security: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4+deb7u1; wheezy-backports: 1.6.2-5+deb8u2~bpo70+1; jessie: 1.6.2-5+deb8u5; jessie-security: 1.6.2-5+deb8u5; sid: 1.10.1-1; jessie-backports: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1~bpo8+2; stretch: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1; stretch-backports: 1.13.3-1~bpo9+1; buster: 1.13.12-1; sid:
1565 [13:04:27] <michael2> jelly: give me a sec to find where I saw it...
1566 [13:04:28] <judd> 1.13.12-1
1567 [13:04:32] <Kelsar> michael2: kernel.org has removed any blobs from the kernel tree with 4.17. since they are all in linux-firmware anyways. dunno how debian handles it
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1574 [13:05:28] <jelly> michael2: if it's a reference older than 10 years, debian has thoroughly deblobbed their kernel source and resulting binaries a long time ago. IF you find something specific you can report a bug.
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1576 [13:05:55] <michael2> jelly: ah, yes it was a reference from 2008
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1578 [13:06:35] <jelly> other distros however may have a different situation
1579 [13:08:38] <michael2> Kelsar: 4.17 thats a quite recent version right? so current mainline/upstream kernels are entirely deblobbed?
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1582 [13:08:56] <Kelsar> michael2: could be 4.16 not sure
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1584 [13:09:31] <Kelsar> atleast all the firmware stuff was thrown out
1585 [13:09:44] <michael2> any idea how SMM (system management mode) is implemented these days in that case?
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1588 [13:11:57] <petn-randall> michael2: What do you mean with that? It's in the firmware, if that's your question.
1589 [13:12:13] <petn-randall> michael2: Well, CPU microcode, which is firmware IMO.
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1596 [13:14:59] <michael2> petn-randall: i mean this:
1597 [13:15:02] <michael2> replaced-url
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1604 [13:17:59] <petn-randall> michael2: I know what it is, your question just doesn't make much sense.
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1610 [13:19:43] <michael2> I could be wrong but I thought SSM was moved from firmware into the kernel
1611 [13:19:55] <michael2> s/SSM/SMM
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1613 [13:20:58] <michael2> from the sounds, it probably was, but has since been removed..?
1614 [13:21:24] <petn-randall> michael2: Where did you read that?
1615 [13:21:24] <michael2> the source of the info was pretty old
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1618 [13:22:51] <michael2> petn-randall: just a sec, finding now...
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1621 [13:23:48] <jelly> OS never deals with SMM, _if_ it's very lucky it will be able to notice lost time during SMM.
1622 [13:23:50] <jelly> sounds like a lot of bull
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1629 [13:25:16] <michael2> petn-randall: jelly: replaced-url
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1635 [13:29:35] <petn-randall> michael2: I've listened several minutes in, and I haven't heard anything about moving SMM into the kernel.
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1637 [13:31:15] <michael2> petn-randall: my mistake - it sounds like it was the ACPI vm that was moved into the kernel - but it was in 2001...?
1638 [13:31:25] <jelly> that is also incorrect
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1640 [13:32:08] <petn-randall> michael2: Also, this talk is about coreboot, which is a FOSS implementation of BIOS/UEFI. So they might be doing some things differently than usual BIOS/UEFI does.
1641 [13:33:05] <jelly> and a system firmware will do VERY different things than an OS kernel will
1642 [13:34:03] <michael2> but isnt the BIOS an unusual kind of firmware in that it runs on CPU?
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1649 [13:36:34] <jelly> where would you have firmware run on, if not a cpu
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1651 [13:36:59] <michael2> on the devices own dedicated processor
1652 [13:37:00] <Kelsar> a cpu, but not the cpu. like hdds got pretty beafy arm socs sometimes
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1655 [13:38:49] <jelly> and the main CPU and its main board would prepare its state to boot an OS using what, fairy dust?
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1657 [13:39:36] <michael2> the BIOS
1658 [13:39:48] <colo-work> jelly, fairy dust sounds acceptable 8)
1659 [13:39:55] *** Joins: OtakuSenpai (~Neel@replaced-ip )
1660 [13:40:12] <colo-work> (esp. if it's distributed under a copyleft license)
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1663 [13:43:06] <michael2> the CPU is exactly that the _central_ processor. if you're talking about a processor which is part of a peripheral satellite component like a wifi module, keyboard etc . then i would call that just a "processor"
1664 [13:43:17] <jelly> michael2: having more dedicated processors increases price of product
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1680 [13:53:31] <szonek> hi, there is a chance that Fastly CDN debian mirror has some modified/infected with malware file, who can i speak to about it?
1681 [13:54:03] <ikanobori> is it provided by fastly itself or someone uses fastly to provide a mirror?
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1683 [13:54:44] <szonek> by fastly
1684 [13:54:51] <petn-randall> szonek: What makes you come to that conclusion?
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1687 [13:55:17] <szonek> petn-randall: it may be false positive: replaced-url
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1689 [13:55:57] <szonek> but win32-loader.exe has different hash than the one on ftp.debian.org
1690 [13:56:37] <szonek> replaced-url
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1693 [13:58:16] <petn-randall> szonek: Do you have a link to the one on ftp.debian.org?
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1695 [13:58:45] <szonek> petn-randall: replaced-url
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1699 [14:00:00] <petn-randall> szonek: They both return the same checksum for me.
1700 [14:00:07] <petn-randall> szonek: 37a1016d0d97e5bc488c966f878b2b86 win32-loader.exe
1701 [14:00:14] <petn-randall> md5sum, that is.
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1703 [14:01:05] <szonek> petn-randall: i think you might've been redirected to fastly
1704 [14:01:49] <szonek> petn-randall: replaced-url
1705 [14:01:55] <szonek> petn-randall: replaced-url
1706 [14:02:10] <szonek> hashes are different
1707 [14:02:51] <szonek> petn-randall: sorry, my fault
1708 [14:03:01] <petn-randall> szonek: The second URL is pointing to a different file.
1709 [14:03:03] <szonek> urls are differnet
1710 [14:03:06] <szonek> yeah
1711 [14:03:11] <petn-randall> On both files I get 6111efe0a54cab8344981c121f0125800a3c4b88a7f1b5bb3b45fbe91648a73a as sha256sum.
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1715 [14:04:02] <petn-randall> szonek: replaced-url
1716 [14:04:29] <oerheks> oldoldstable
1717 [14:04:42] <szonek> yeah, sorry about that
1718 [14:05:04] <petn-randall> szonek: It's ok. A pity there aren't any gpg signature on that file, though.
1719 [14:05:21] <oerheks> stay sharp, beter a false positive than ..
1720 [14:05:35] <petn-randall> szonek: I recommend using the netinstaller and a USB stick, anyway.
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1722 [14:06:23] <szonek> petn-randall: i'm building my own iso with simple-cdd and have hard time downloading this exe file due to our firewall blocking it
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1734 [14:12:07] <petn-randall> szonek: Not much we can do about it, though.
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1736 [14:12:19] <petn-randall> szonek: You could try HTTPS, that should solve it.
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1749 [14:23:24] *** Joins: OS-38463 (~OS-38463@replaced-ip )
1750 [14:23:38] <OS-38463> /join #offsec
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1754 [14:24:26] <OS-38463> /msg NickServ IDENTIFY 1234XXXX
1755 [14:25:52] <oerheks> time to change password
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1771 [14:32:45] <jolt> :D
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1774 [14:33:26] <colo-work> I recommend 'hunter2'
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1776 [14:33:38] *** Quits: briner (~briner@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1777 [14:34:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1603
1778 [14:34:30] *** Quits: Eduard_Munteanu (~Eduard_Mu@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
1779 [14:34:43] <jim> OS-38463, space.... can be the final frontier but not the initial one!
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1781 [14:35:12] <dgp> <insert "its a trap" gif here>
1782 [14:35:28] <secrgb> colo-work: 'password123' was a popular choice once ..
1783 [14:36:08] <jim> so was password 321, to thwart the guessers
1784 [14:36:36] *** Quits: timahvo1 (~rogue@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1785 [14:37:18] <jim> or pihunger31416
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1788 [14:38:48] <secrgb> My favorite password is 'incorrect'
1789 [14:38:51] <szonek> petn-randall: yeap, https works! :)
1790 [14:38:52] <szonek> thanks
1791 [14:39:29] <secrgb> when i get it wrong, irc reminds me: 'Your password is incorrect'
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1793 [14:40:52] <Ool> :)
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1861 [15:08:34] <jim> is memtest86 still an installable thing?
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1863 [15:09:19] <petn-randall> jim: You can easily check that in your package manager.
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1865 [15:09:37] <jim> or...
1866 [15:09:47] <jim> , v memtest86
1867 [15:09:48] <judd> Package: memtest86 on amd64 -- wheezy: 4.0s-1; jessie: 4.3.7-2; buster: 4.3.7-3; sid: 4.3.7-3; stretch: 4.3.7-3
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1892 [15:26:52] <jelly> dpkg, tell jim about msg the bot
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1960 [15:57:24] <yac> Is there a way to automatically install -dev packages for installed packages?
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1972 [16:03:11] <jelly> yac: I'd assume there wasn't.
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1982 [16:07:29] <k_> hello, i am trying to install mysql-server in parrot security os but it is showing this message "Package mysql-server is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source E: Package 'mysql-server' has no installation candidate"
1983 [16:07:43] <greycat> !parrot
1984 [16:07:43] <dpkg> Parrot OS (replaced-url
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1986 [16:08:08] <k_> ok
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1990 [16:09:10] <jelly> yac: but there might be a (better) way, depending on what you're actually trying to achieve
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1992 [16:09:35] <dougie> In the install, is "Debian desktop environment" that's checked by default an actual desktop environment?
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1994 [16:09:56] <greycat> It will install GNOME.
1995 [16:10:00] <jelly> dougie: if you can call Gnome an actual DE, yes
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1997 [16:10:25] <dougie> Gotcha, cool.
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2008 [16:16:28] <bash94> w
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2037 [16:25:19] <SimonB> Having problems with an NVIDIA card on my Debian system (on Stretch and now Buster). The card is a Quadro NVS 420m and I have the legacy 340 drivers installed (from repos not NVIDIA directly). I have 3 monitors on said card, But the card presents itself as two GPU's, and I'm having to use twinview to get all three monitors working. The problem is that anything that tries to use hardware accelerated
2038 [16:25:25] <SimonB> graphics grinds the whole PC to a halt, and I often have to reset when this does happen.
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2040 [16:26:47] <SimonB> xorg.conf : replaced-url
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2056 [16:33:38] <SimonB> NVS 420 not NVS 420m
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2059 [16:36:24] <Brigo> hi, i have a problem with a mini laptop that dosen't detect my ap, but it detects others. I am wondering if it is any king of compatibility issue or what.
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2062 [16:38:27] <Brigo> my phone can detect 11 and the laptop 7.
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2064 [16:39:17] <Brigo> well, my pc can detect 6 ...
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2069 [16:42:13] <petn-randall> Brigo: Do you have the firmware package for that wifi installed? It might be that the burned-in firmware kind of works, but is buggy.
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2071 [16:43:05] <Brigo> petn-randall, i think so, i will recheck.
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2078 [16:45:45] <Brigo> petn-randall, that could be the issue. i would say i checked that. Maybe not because it worked at first.
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2081 [16:46:16] <petn-randall> Brigo: Hmm, what do you mean by that?
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2085 [16:47:08] <Brigo> the wifi was working for years, and all of the sudden stopped working.
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2087 [16:48:00] <petn-randall> Brigo: Oh, I see. In that case it could also be a broken wifi antenna, though I'd check for software problems first.
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2092 [16:49:36] <Brigo> i am checking with iw dev wlan0 scan, so, i don't think there can be any other software issue but the driver. I can check to connect close to the ap, i alread did without luck.
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2101 [16:53:25] <Brigo> form the same room it can't detect the ap. could it be an ap issue?
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2106 [16:56:06] <qwerty1> Hello, I recently downloaded and unzipped a bz2 file. When I attempt to open the program via the command line I get an error that the program is not located in the path /usr/bin/<program>. However I am staring at the file in that path /usr/bin/ <program I am staring at>. Also, the error "failed to execute child" appears when I try to run the program via the gui. Any ideas? Thanks.
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2109 [16:56:41] <greycat> What is the exact name of the program? What is the exact command you are typing to run it?
2110 [16:57:00] <greycat> If it's in the current directory, you should be typing ./myproggie to run it.
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2116 [16:57:58] <greycat> If it's something you created or downloaded, you should not be putting it in /usr/bin. You may use /usr/local/bin for such things.
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2118 [16:58:44] <greycat> I would strongly recommend that you test the thing from the current directory (~/Downloads/ or whatever) before installing it system-wide.
2119 [16:59:19] <qwerty1> @greycat I tried running with sudo as well. its veracrpyt
2120 [16:59:32] <greycat> !exact
2121 [16:59:32] <dpkg> Please tell us exactly what you typed, and exactly what the error was. Please use a <pastebin> like replaced-url
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2124 [17:00:05] <greycat> What does "ls -l ./veracrypt" show? Did you run "sudo ./veracrypt"? What output did you get? Why the hell would your first test be with sudo?
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2130 [17:04:28] <qwerty1> @greycat ls -l ./ I get ls: impossible access './veracrypt': File or directory does not exist
2131 [17:04:47] <greycat> You're translating.
2132 [17:04:48] <qwerty1> @greycat correct I ran ls -l ./veracrypt
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2134 [17:05:10] <greycat> Where is the file? What directory are you in? Why are you not in the directory where the file is that you are trying to test?
2135 [17:05:19] <greycat> !localized errors
2136 [17:05:20] <dpkg> To provide command output in English instead of your native language, set your locale to an English one (e.g. C) prior to running the command, e.g. "LC_ALL=C apt-get -f install".
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2153 [17:09:53] <nUll3ec> hey
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2155 [17:10:22] <qwerty1> @greycat ok. I ran it from the directory got '- rwxr -xr -x 1 root root 6622984 mar 30 08:20 ./veracrypt'
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2157 [17:10:46] <nUll3ec> :>
2158 [17:10:53] <greycat> OK, now if you're in that directory and you type ./veracrypt what happens?
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2161 [17:11:21] <greycat> If you get errors, please run it as "LC_ALL=C ./veracrypt" and then paste that command AND all of its output onto replaced-url
2162 [17:11:35] <qwerty1> file or directory doesnt exist.
2163 [17:11:55] <jelly> more correctly, it's an exit status of 2
2164 [17:12:09] <greycat> you may be confusing exit status 2 with errno==2
2165 [17:12:25] <jelly> execve() can return 2, too
2166 [17:12:28] <qwerty1> @greycat I am relatively new. Could you please briefly explain what LC_ALL=C is ? Thanks
2167 [17:12:41] <greycat> qwerty1: if you're getting "No such file or directory" on ./veracrypt when you're sure you spelled it right, try "file ./veracrypt" and "ldd ./veracrypt"
2168 [17:12:45] <jelly> when someone's trying to run a 32bit binary on a 64bit-only system
2169 [17:12:49] <greycat> !localized errors
2170 [17:12:49] <dpkg> To provide command output in English instead of your native language, set your locale to an English one (e.g. C) prior to running the command, e.g. "LC_ALL=C apt-get -f install".
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2172 [17:13:09] <greycat> Yeah, arch mismatch is one of the possible causes here.
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2176 [17:13:16] <greycat> file and ldd should be helpful
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2178 [17:14:35] <qwerty1> @greycat 100% positive I spelled it right.
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2180 [17:15:48] <greycat> qwerty1: use file ./veracrypt to see what kind of file it is
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2182 [17:18:00] <qwerty1> @greycat here is what I get when I run file ./veracrypt ./veracrypt: ./veracrypt: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib/ld-linux.so.2, BuildID[sha1]=8852ee3274c644919239dea50458d89f57c8b6de, stripped
2183 [17:18:23] <greycat> And is your Linux system 32-bit or 64-bit?
2184 [17:18:24] <qwerty1> @jelly I think your supposition may be correct.
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2187 [17:18:45] <greycat> !multiarch
2188 [17:18:45] <dpkg> Multiarch allows you to install foreign architecture packages. For example, to allow i386 packages to be installed on an amd64 system: «dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update». See replaced-url
2189 [17:18:48] <qwerty1> @greycat. Yeah im 64 so my question is how do I run the 64 bit version.
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2191 [17:18:58] <greycat> Or, if there's a 64-bit version available, just get that instead.
2192 [17:20:22] <qwerty1> @greycat there is no 64 bit available just the tar.bz2 file
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2194 [17:20:44] <greycat> Then follow the !multiarch instructions, and start installing 32-bit libraries.
2195 [17:21:13] <qwerty1> @dpkg thanks
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2197 [17:21:45] <qwerty1> @greycat was the second part of your sentence advice for the future?
2198 [17:22:24] <greycat> If the program is dynamically linked, you will almost certainly need to install a lot of lib*:i386 packages.
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2201 [17:23:19] <jelly> juding by the size, it looks like it's semistatically or badly linked so that it still looks for ld.so even if it does not actually need anything from there
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2203 [17:23:49] <jelly> ldd will know, after libc6:i386 is installed
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2209 [17:29:56] <qwerty1> @greycat why is it if my program is dynamically linked I will need to install a lot of i386 packages?
2210 [17:30:07] <greycat> because it will need those libraries
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2226 [17:33:58] <croddy> there are 64-bit binaries of veracrypt
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2229 [17:35:20] <croddy> the installers are clearly labeled by architecture
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2245 [17:42:24] <qwerty1> @croddy how did you come about this?
2246 [17:42:40] <croddy> i downloaded the tar.bz2 from the website and unpacked it to refresh my memory
2247 [17:42:53] <croddy> interestingly there is nothing in there called just 'veracrypt'
2248 [17:43:00] <croddy> but this is not really part of debian
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2252 [17:44:51] <qwerty1> @croddy what series of commands do you use to unpack a tar.bz2?
2253 [17:45:07] <qwerty1> @croddy still trying to figure out what works best
2254 [17:45:07] <croddy> tar jxf filename.tar.bz2
2255 [17:45:18] <qwerty1> @no v?
2256 [17:45:24] <qwerty1> @croddy no v?
2257 [17:45:26] <croddy> i don't use the v, no
2258 [17:45:32] <croddy> you can if you want to
2259 [17:45:34] <qwerty1> any reason
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2262 [17:46:05] <croddy> it suppresses the output and runs faster for tars with many files. if i am unsure of the contents i will use 'tar tvf' to have a look before unpacking. but this is just a matter of preference and you can decide for yourself how you want to use it.
2263 [17:46:14] <greycat> Maybe you could start by telling him where the 64-bit veracrypt is.
2264 [17:46:21] <greycat> Since he claimed there isn't one.
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2267 [17:46:59] <croddy> it is the only linux binary download on veracrypt.fr, there is one archive with both architectures. replaced-url
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2278 [17:52:30] <greycat> I almost always use tar tzf (or tjf, whatever is applicable) before extracting an archive, to see whether it creates its own subdirectory or just spams files into the current directory.
2279 [17:53:02] <greycat> You need to know that before extracting, or else you might end up with an irreversible mess.
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2286 [17:57:15] <qwerty1> @greycat thanks for your help. Found out the issue. thanks like an idiot i was installing the x86 not the 64.
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2302 [18:01:26] <jelly> croddy: it only runs faster if your terminal is really slow!
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2304 [18:02:02] <croddy> well, someday i'll get a 115200 baud serial card
2305 [18:02:29] <jelly> or switch over to a different screen(1)
2306 [18:02:49] <jelly> then go back, oops, still scrolling
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2327 [18:12:38] <dob1> some utility to monitor wifi signal ?
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2356 [18:26:35] <jhutchins_wk> dob1: Complete sentences work better.
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2360 [18:27:20] <dob1> is there some program that can I use to monitor the wifi's signal?
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2371 [18:32:03] <jhutchins_wk> dob1: I think the network manager applets will do that.
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2376 [18:32:33] <fatalerrors> hi there
2377 [18:33:01] <fatalerrors> i'm using reprepro at work to provide some additional deb at work
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2379 [18:33:30] <dob1> jhutchins_wk, maybe something better
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2381 [18:33:44] <fatalerrors> we reorganised that to move the repo tree, served by apache on a more secure storage
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2383 [18:34:03] <dgp> dob1: what do you need to monitor it for? range testing?
2384 [18:34:25] <fatalerrors> i sed config files to update them accordingly to new paths
2385 [18:34:33] <jhutchins_wk> dob1: conky or gkrellm might have network modules.
2386 [18:34:43] <fatalerrors> but now all the packages are warned as unsecure
2387 [18:34:56] <fatalerrors> how can i fix that please ?
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2390 [18:36:15] <dob1> for example there are android apps that give a lot of informations. the wifi connection on the pc I am using is very unstable I would like to investigate why. The router is in the same room
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2392 [18:37:07] <dgp> dob1: you probably want to look at the error counters using iw
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2394 [18:37:23] <dgp> dob1: it's possible you just have one of the many crap wifi chipsets
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2397 [18:38:16] <dob1> dgp, I will take a look. the pc is a x220 lenovo
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2400 [18:39:07] <dgp> dob1: use lsusb or lspci to find out what you have
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2409 [18:42:08] <dob1> it's an intel one
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2413 [18:45:03] <dgp> That should be one of the better ones then. You can get signal info etc from iw. If the signal looks good and it's still bad you might need to disable power saving or so some other tweaks
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2423 [18:50:38] <jhutchins_wk> dob1: Also check dmesg when you have issues, see what it thinks is happening.
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2450 [19:07:21] <dob1> jhutchins_wk, the dhcp for ipv6 was active, I disabled it
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2463 [19:14:52] <jairzhino> hi all
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2476 [19:25:04] <dob1> as dhcp server I am using another pc but on the router there was a dhcp6 server active, I disabled it. It seems this was causing problems
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2483 [19:29:19] <Error451> my first question would be why you'd have IPv6 on a LAN
2484 [19:29:34] <Error451> but the answer would prolly be "because you can"
2485 [19:29:43] <dob1> I don't
2486 [19:29:44] <Dagger> because your LAN is part of the internet and the internet is big enough to need v6
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2488 [19:30:25] <__m4ch1n3__> if its part of internet then it is not lan :3
2489 [19:30:46] <Dagger> er... yes it is? that's how networks work
2490 [19:30:46] <Error451> yeah I was still totally dumbfounded by that remark
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2492 [19:31:31] <Dagger> maybe your local network legitimately isn't connected to the internet, but most are these days
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2496 [19:32:16] <Error451> well I only have a couple of ports open, not my entire LAN in a DMZ
2497 [19:32:24] <Error451> so IPv$ router is fine
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2499 [19:32:32] <Error451> *6
2500 [19:33:05] <Error451> also .. less than XX million connections on my lan
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2502 [19:33:45] <__m4ch1n3__> this will change with IoT and nanobots
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2504 [19:33:57] <Dagger> if your network is connected to the internet, then no, it's not fine. there are too many machines on the internet for v4
2505 [19:33:59] <`Kevin> and what is the reason for not having v6 on a LAN?
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2507 [19:34:15] <Error451> fortunately I still have a choice of buying non-IoT stuff
2508 [19:34:35] <Dagger> I know most of the machines aren't directly connected to *your* network, but that's kinda the point of the internet -- it's a bunch of networks that are connected together
2509 [19:35:00] <__m4ch1n3__> ipv6 protocol has built in encryption, so there is always a reason to use it in my opinion
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2513 [19:35:58] <greycat> (That's literally what "internetwork" means -- a network of networks. "Internet" is a shortened form of "internetwork".)
2514 [19:36:35] <dgp> Error451: IPv6 has a bunch of benefits aside from the massive address space
2515 [19:38:26] <Error451> I shall look in to this
2516 [19:38:28] <Error451> :)
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2519 [19:40:07] <Error451> but whatever those features are, I doubt 98% of internet user will ever need these featues
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2521 [19:41:03] <dgp> 98% of the internet being the people that can still get ipv4 addresses?
2522 [19:41:17] <greycat> The last time I looked at IPv6 at all, the web sites that decide whether you have IPv6 said "Nope, you still don't have it." At which point I looked at my ISP's web pages, and they said they support IPv6 if your DSL modem is one of the ones shown below. Which of course mine is not.
2523 [19:41:21] <`Kevin> you should rephrase that as 98% do not care about how it works as long as it works
2524 [19:41:23] <dgp> have you tried requesting a second ipv4 address for something like DNS recently?
2525 [19:41:48] <Error451> 98% being the ppl that only use a browser
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2527 [19:42:01] <Dagger> I've had a hell of a time getting v4 addresses myself. I have about two dozen machines here, and my ISP only wants to give me one single address
2528 [19:42:18] <dgp> Error451: 98% of people will be pissed when they are stuck behind some shitty CGNAT
2529 [19:42:24] <Dagger> they don't even have a mechanism to get the /27 or /26 or so that I need
2530 [19:42:35] <`Kevin> Error451: I also think its more about sustainability versus what features
2531 [19:42:37] <Ool> number of V4 is fix, but NAT can grow more
2532 [19:42:51] <Dagger> and I'm definitely not the only person who has more than a single machine at home
2533 [19:43:05] <dgp> Dagger: I can't even get a second ipv4 address for a machine sitting in a DC these days
2534 [19:43:19] <dgp> Ool: and NAT is a stinking pile of shit
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2536 [19:43:31] *** Joins: Pr0metheus (~nezos@replaced-ip )
2537 [19:43:31] <Ool> exactly :P
2538 [19:43:34] <`Kevin> dgp: i dont think most would care about that but I completely agree about NAT
2539 [19:43:35] *** Joins: isnice (~isnice@replaced-ip )
2540 [19:43:35] *** Joins: bootdisk (~bootdisk@replaced-ip )
2541 [19:43:47] <`Kevin> v4 is only here still because of the bandaids NAT has provided
2542 [19:44:04] <__m4ch1n3__> tfw behinf isp nat and not a single port open
2543 [19:44:08] *** Quits: trumee (~trumee@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2544 [19:44:14] <`Kevin> otoh I would much prefer some public IP space and a simple fw set than relying on NAT
2545 [19:44:18] <`Kevin> (v6)
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2547 [19:44:25] *** Joins: linuxer (~Linuxer@replaced-ip )
2548 [19:44:45] *** Joins: towo` (~towo@replaced-ip )
2549 [19:44:48] *** linuxer is now known as Guest30836
2550 [19:44:56] * dgp works in "IoT" and CGNAT is a major pain in the ass
2551 [19:44:57] *** Quits: czart__ (~czart@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2552 [19:45:39] <Error451> you forget that this is is circle jerk of nerds ... because that's what IRC is by default
2553 [19:45:54] <Error451> "people" want facebook and don't care much else
2554 [19:46:00] <`Kevin> dgp: I can imagine :( otoh people are going to blame ISP who is then going to blame the manuf and its just a circular blame going nowhere
2555 [19:46:06] *** Parts: redips (~spider@replaced-ip ) ()
2556 [19:46:12] <FinalX> luckily all our customers have had native ipv6 allocations routed to them and on their internal networks from their modems for quite a few years now :) there's the occasional calls when site owners (including Facebook) don't have their stuff in order, and especially Apple was a big problem, but most issues have passed :)
2557 [19:46:19] <dgp> Error451: see what `Kevin wrote above
2558 [19:47:01] *** Joins: trumee (~trumee@replaced-ip )
2559 [19:47:30] <dgp> Error451: people might not care that their traffic is going through multiple layers of wonky garbage but they'll soon rant like a crazy asshole on twitter as soon as it stops working
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2561 [19:47:53] <FinalX> NAT is more annoying and slowing things down than it is a solution, but for providers that don't have enough IPv4 to allocate, it can be an interesting stopgap. Ziggo/UPC were taking it to the extreme here, though. And they're now offering a choice to new customers: 1) Native IPv4 and no IPv6 or 2) IPv6 and NAT'd IPv4.
2562 [19:47:57] <greycat> What are ordinary web site owners supposed to be doing with respect to IPv6?
2563 [19:47:59] <Error451> twitter and c=facebook deserve to die
2564 [19:48:04] *** Joins: hypn0 (~h@replaced-ip )
2565 [19:48:25] <`Kevin> Error451: IF people refuse to give up v4 and it continues to shrink space wise then ISPs may become so constrained that they do stupid things wrt NAT to save IP space leading to potential connection problems and such
2566 [19:48:32] <dgp> greycat: make sure their host supports IPv6 and if not move to one of the many that do
2567 [19:48:40] <greycat> "Move." I see.
2568 [19:48:49] <`Kevin> Error451: it isnt a question of do we need v6 for features because we want to nerd out on it... rather it has to happen
2569 [19:49:10] <FinalX> greycat: Make sure their site actually responds and works well on it, and because of Apple, preferably make sure that all realservers behind loadbalancers (combination of ipv4+ipv6) all share the same session data. Apple in particular was eh, an odd duckling. Not preferring IPv6, but sort of Russian roulette as to what you'd get for different resources in pages.
2570 [19:49:14] <dgp> greycat: If a hosting provider doesn't support IPv6 by now do you really trust them to host your stuff?
2571 [19:49:15] <Error451> for "the internet" yes
2572 [19:49:31] <Error451> but what I want to do on my LAN works
2573 [19:49:40] <greycat> dgp: well, I live in a particular bubble called the US, where we don't have IPv6, like, anywhere at all.
2574 [19:49:42] <Error451> but like I said
2575 [19:49:46] <Dagger> greycat: preferably their current host would support v6. if their current host doesn't do v6 at this point, it raises some rather worrying questions about how well that host is run
2576 [19:49:50] *** Quits: Guest30836 (~Linuxer@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2577 [19:49:51] <greycat> I don't have it at home, or at work, or on my VPS.
2578 [19:49:59] <FinalX> All our Shared Hosting packages have had IPv6 on them for 10+ years now, and all our colocation users had it available natively as well.
2579 [19:50:08] <Error451> I shall look in to the other features of IPv^before I judge on using it on my LAN
2580 [19:50:25] <dgp> greycat: big us providers like rackspace have working IPv6 on their vps
2581 [19:50:26] <Error451> *6
2582 [19:50:28] <FinalX> Speed is another for IPv6. Less overhead than it might seem.
2583 [19:50:41] <Dagger> although in fairness, NAT64 works fairly well for hitting random websites. if you don't mind the extra latency hit
2584 [19:50:45] <`Kevin> Error451: if you want to deal with v4<->v6 NAT woes later on go for it ;D
2585 [19:50:57] <greycat> My VPS's "ip a" says "inet6 fe80::1a60:24ff:fe77:5cec/64 scope link". Is that a "real" address or one of the fake thingies?
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2587 [19:50:59] <FinalX> To promote IPv6, we even have rate limiting on our usenet server for IPv4 and not for IPv6 ;)
2588 [19:51:07] <FinalX> `Kevin: "fake"
2589 [19:51:17] <Dagger> Error451: the thing is... if you're connected to the internet, then there's no judging required. you need v6 on the LAN. you don't have the option of just using it as far as the router
2590 [19:51:23] <Error451> thing is ... I live in .NL and we still have a few spare IPv4 spaces iirc
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2592 [19:51:24] <Dagger> Error451: your end machines need v6 in order to use v6
2593 [19:51:56] <dgp> greycat: that's a link local address which is a real address but only usable between machines connected on that network
2594 [19:52:01] <FinalX> fe80::* are "link-local" add...
2595 [19:52:03] <FinalX> that
2596 [19:52:15] <Dagger> (unless you plan on switching your network to a proxy for internet access? that's a valid choice, but one that nobody uses these days)
2597 [19:52:19] <FinalX> Error451: providers might, not the NL
2598 [19:52:19] <Error451> I'd prolly need another router first ... I think all my hardware supports 6
2599 [19:52:26] *** Quits: LtL (~ltl@replaced-ip ) (Quit: LtL)
2600 [19:52:35] <greycat> dgp: well, there you go. That's what my VPS provider has.
2601 [19:52:41] *** Quits: lucad111 (~lucad111@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2602 [19:53:20] <Dagger> .nl is at 12% deployment, there's definitely at least one major ISP doing v6 there
2603 [19:53:22] <dgp> greycat: you might just need to configure it. I know rackspace at least gave people v6 addresses but then discovered they don't work on any vps created before a certain time :(
2604 [19:53:31] <FinalX> Error451: Only new LIRs get a /22 from the last blocks RIPE still has. It's a Dutch provider I work for, and we even sell /29's to customers for home lines.
2605 [19:53:32] *** Quits: Almtesh (~Almtesh@replaced-ip##) (Quit: ZNC - ##replaced-url
2606 [19:53:39] <FinalX> Dagger: Yeah, us :)
2607 [19:53:56] *** Quits: turfal (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2608 [19:54:02] <greycat> ... shit, that wasn't my VPS. That was my home PC. Hold on.
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2612 [19:54:31] <greycat> VPS's "ip a" output does not even have an inet6 line at all.
2613 [19:54:39] <greycat> except on "lo" of course
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2615 [19:55:04] <FinalX> "ip" is a bit awkward with ipv6.
2616 [19:55:22] <FinalX> "ip a ls" shows inet6 usually if you have them, but "ip route ls" will not, only "ip -6 route ls" does :|
2617 [19:55:35] *** Quits: faw (~faw@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2618 [19:56:05] *** Quits: cdown (~cdown@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2619 [19:56:34] *** Quits: Pr0metheus (~nezos@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Pr0metheus)
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2622 [19:57:21] *** Quits: morphis_ (~morphis@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2624 [19:59:07] *** Quits: ola (~user@replaced-ip ) (Changing host)
2625 [19:59:07] *** Joins: ola (~user@replaced-ip )
2626 [19:59:08] <greycat> "ip -6 a" shows only lo, and "ip -6 route" shows "default dev venet0 metric 1 mtu 1500 hoplimit 0"
2627 [19:59:24] <greycat> "ip -6 route ls" is the same
2628 [20:00:21] *** Joins: fightthewalrus (~user@replaced-ip )
2629 [20:00:36] *** Joins: lyr3 (~user@replaced-ip )
2630 [20:01:08] <greycat> Kernel is 2.6.32-042stab127.2 original image was Debian squeeze, I upgraded it to wheezy a while back. OpenVZ container.
2631 [20:01:16] *** Joins: apus_ (~apus@replaced-ip )
2632 [20:01:20] *** Quits: apus (~apus@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2633 [20:01:28] *** Quits: orti (~orti@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2634 [20:02:34] *** Joins: nunatak (~nunatak@replaced-ip )
2635 [20:02:50] *** Quits: zabow (~zabow@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2636 [20:03:23] <dgp> I think that might have just become EOL
2637 [20:03:44] *** Quits: dob1 (~dob1@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2638 [20:03:48] *** Joins: OS-35117 (~starry@replaced-ip )
2639 [20:03:49] *** Joins: wildlander (~wildlande@replaced-ip )
2640 [20:04:30] <greycat> fair point
2641 [20:04:39] *** Joins: mortn77 (~morten@replaced-ip )
2642 [20:04:49] *** Quits: mortn77 (~morten@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2643 [20:04:58] <OS-35117> hi
2644 [20:05:03] *** Quits: mortnz (~morten@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2645 [20:05:04] *** Quits: Slashman (~Slash@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2646 [20:05:08] *** Quits: brontosaurusrex (~ticho@replaced-ip ) (Quit: brontosaurusrex)
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2651 [20:06:22] *** Joins: Darcidride (~Darcidrid@replaced-ip )
2652 [20:06:23] <dgp> There should be some providers in the US that sell "kvm" vps now. You have complete control over the kernel etc in that situation
2653 [20:06:52] <bites> even google cloud doesn't support ipv6 on the vm instances directly.
2654 [20:06:59] * FinalX really enjoys Vultr
2655 [20:07:12] <FinalX> I even have my own AS and /39 IPv6-range BGP'ing from my VPS's there.
2656 [20:07:23] <FinalX> (for free)
2657 [20:07:24] <dgp> The one I started using recently lets you upload an iso via SFTP and run debian installer via VNC instead of having to fix their pre-made images
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2678 [20:18:41] *** Quits: SopaXorzTaker (~SopaXorzT@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2679 [20:18:43] <jhutchins_wk> I usually find the lag on ipv6 is 10x or more higher than ipv4.
2680 [20:18:50] *** Quits: theBOFH (~iguana@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2681 [20:19:56] <Dagger> jhutchins_wk: something's wrong with your connection in specific, then. the average for most countries is either no difference or a slight advantage in v6's favor
2682 [20:19:59] *** Joins: timahvo1 (~rogue@replaced-ip )
2683 [20:20:08] <Dagger> failing that, a slight advantage in v4's favor. not a 10x latency difference
2684 [20:20:59] *** Joins: tio43 (~whoami@replaced-ip )
2685 [20:21:16] <greycat> First guess: his ipv6 is actually being tunneled through something?
2686 [20:21:35] *** Quits: mortnz (~morten@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2687 [20:21:36] *** Joins: mazoltov (~iguana@replaced-ip )
2688 [20:21:37] <jhutchins_wk> Google Fiber.
2689 [20:22:02] <Dagger> overloaded 6rd is possible. or it could just be that the ISP happens to have terrible routing for whatever reason
2690 [20:22:25] <jhutchins_wk> ...or 6 is just laggier.
2691 [20:22:50] <Dagger> it's not, though
2692 [20:22:55] <jhutchins_wk> There are also a number of features in ipv4 that aren't implemented yet.
2693 [20:23:18] <jhutchins_wk> in 6.
2694 [20:23:21] *** Joins: turfal (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip )
2695 [20:24:18] *** Quits: sauvin (sauvin@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2696 [20:24:23] <Dagger> I kinda find it hard to believe that Google Fibre is that bad though... I don't suppose you happen to have/can get traceroutes to the same destination over v4 and v6 that you could show me?
2697 [20:24:47] *** Joins: [Grizzly] (~while@replaced-ip )
2698 [20:24:47] *** Quits: Rogalian (~cools@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2699 [20:25:27] <Ouroboro> weren't we supposed to run out of ipv4 addresses years ago? yet you can still get as many as you want for almost free
2700 [20:25:28] *** Joins: Rogalian (~cools@replaced-ip )
2701 [20:26:06] <Ouroboro> i did finally enable ipv6 on my vps just for the hell of it
2702 [20:27:18] <greycat> Not sure when you joined, but if you read back several minutes, other people said they *cannot* get IPv4 addresses so easily.
2703 [20:27:35] <Ouroboro> missed that
2704 [20:27:53] <Dagger> I've not been able to get as many as I want. I can't even get more than one here, there's not even a mechanism for doing so
2705 [20:27:56] *** Quits: dionysus69 (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2706 [20:28:06] <Ouroboro> you can get about 10 of them for about $30 a year
2707 [20:28:26] <dgp> Ouroboro: with the big host in Germany I use for some clients you have to request single ipv4 addresses and give them a good reason. Needing a second address because some TLD needs two distinct ipv4 address for dns isn't good enough
2708 [20:28:36] <Dagger> the fact that you consider paying per IP to be reasonable is saying something
2709 [20:28:39] *** Quits: shabius (~shabius@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2710 [20:29:05] <Ouroboro> Dagger: that's just the cost of the vps, the addresses come with that
2711 [20:29:06] *** Quits: isnice (~isnice@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2712 [20:29:41] <Dagger> I get my current VPSs at $4/year, so that's still $26/year
2713 [20:30:00] <greycat> Seems I'm overpaying.
2714 [20:30:21] <greycat> and $4/yr does not sound believable to me
2715 [20:30:23] *** Guest99648 is now known as Haudegen
2716 [20:30:26] <Ouroboro> me either
2717 [20:30:27] *** Quits: ongolaBoy (~ongolaBoy@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2718 [20:30:27] *** Joins: well_laid_lawn (~Jean-luc@replaced-ip )
2719 [20:30:56] <Ouroboro> i was just going to say that i have no idea how they can offer them for $30 a year, must be a loss leader
2720 [20:31:00] *** Joins: PoaB (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip )
2721 [20:31:11] *** Joins: BlueByte (~walther@replaced-ip )
2722 [20:31:22] <Dagger> replaced-url
2723 [20:31:26] <Dagger> my bad. $4.11/year
2724 [20:31:28] <greycat> At first glance I thought he meant $4/month which is still less than I'm paying, but at least it's the right order of magnitude.
2725 [20:31:33] *** Joins: sz0 (uid110435@replaced-ip )
2726 [20:31:41] <Ouroboro> you make one tiny support request, and you blow that budget
2727 [20:32:08] <dgp> 1 NAT IPv4 address .. ugh
2728 [20:32:21] *** Joins: ongolaBoy (~ongolaBoy@replaced-ip )
2729 [20:33:16] *** Quits: killian99 (~killian99@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Quitte)
2730 [20:33:20] *** Joins: Levure (~quassel@replaced-ip )
2731 [20:33:43] <Dagger> dgp: and as a result of that, everybody's immediate response was that they didn't believe the price
2732 [20:33:47] <Dagger> do you think that's a coincidence? :p
2733 [20:33:53] <Ouroboro> dgp: which big host in germany?
2734 [20:34:03] <dgp> Ouroboro: hetzner
2735 [20:34:04] *** Quits: frostschutz (~frostschu@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2736 [20:34:40] <dgp> They used to give you a block of addresses. Now you get 1 and have to beg and pay for anymore
2737 [20:34:47] *** Joins: Lyberta (~Lyberta@replaced-ip )
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2739 [20:35:40] *** Joins: shabius (~shabius@replaced-ip )
2740 [20:35:58] <Lyberta> does "set -e" reset the exit code of the previous command? or better yet, how to check if command output has string under "set -e"?
2741 [20:36:21] <greycat> set -e in a sh or bash program makes the program exit if certain things happen
2742 [20:36:42] <Ouroboro> dgp: on which service? their cloud vps has a 'floating ip' feature, i believe that you get some number for free
2743 [20:36:48] <greycat> If you DON'T want the program to completely exit when those things happen, stop using set -e.
2744 [20:37:06] <dgp> Ouroboro: root server. 50 euro a month one
2745 [20:37:24] <Ouroboro> dgp: strange
2746 [20:37:31] <Lyberta> greycat, so if I use "if [ $? == 0 ]; then" do I set to then "set -e" after the check?
2747 [20:37:39] *** Joins: Greerso (~greerso@replaced-ip )
2748 [20:37:51] <greycat> If you use set -e, chances are your program will never GET TO that check, because it will already have exited.
2749 [20:37:59] <greycat> set -e is just terrible.
2750 [20:38:10] *** Quits: dreamon (~dreamon@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2751 [20:38:22] <Lyberta> greycat, I use "set +e" before running the command - grep in my case
2752 [20:38:31] <greycat> :rolleyes:
2753 [20:38:41] <greycat> replaced-url
2754 [20:38:47] *** Parts: rcdilorenzo (~rcdiloren@replaced-ip ) ()
2755 [20:38:59] *** Joins: rcdilorenzo (~rcdiloren@replaced-ip )
2756 [20:39:08] *** Quits: Greerso (~greerso@replaced-ip ) ()
2757 [20:39:10] <dgp> Ouroboro: maybe it changed recently but I gave up trying with them after asking for another ip as .es registrar requires two distinct ip addresses and that wasn't a good enough reason for them.. so now that client is paying .50 euro a year per domain to have the domain on hetzners dns server
2758 [20:40:02] <Ouroboro> dgp: maybe it is different on different services, or maybe i am misunderstanding what 'floating ip' means
2759 [20:40:12] *** Quits: shannow (~shannow@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2760 [20:40:53] *** Quits: hs3kniveshs2tdis (~Sir_Desig@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2761 [20:40:57] <bites> hetzner lets you order small subnets.
2762 [20:41:05] *** Joins: Sir_Designer (~Sir_Desig@replaced-ip )
2763 [20:41:22] <Lyberta> greycat, so.. should I ditch bash for a better language?
2764 [20:41:35] <greycat> No, you should STOP FUCKING USING set -e
2765 [20:41:41] *** Quits: deadman36g (~deadman36@replaced-ip ) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2766 [20:41:49] *** Joins: conta1 (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip )
2767 [20:41:52] <greycat> I don't know how to make it any clearer.
2768 [20:42:05] <Ouroboro> also, i don't know whether those 'floating ips' have the same features, e.g. whether they allow rdns
2769 [20:42:19] <Lyberta> greycat, but I don't like having to check for exit status after each command, is there a workaround?
2770 [20:42:38] <greycat> Fine, then stop using bash/sh.
2771 [20:42:40] <Ouroboro> Lyberta: sure, just don't check it :P
2772 [20:42:45] <greycat> Also stop using C, because C has the same model.
2773 [20:43:04] <dgp> just throw the computer out of the window and be done with it
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2776 [20:43:11] <dgp> go and live on a farm and be happy
2777 [20:43:16] <Ouroboro> ^^ this
2778 [20:43:32] <greycat> Lazy spoiled kids these days.
2779 [20:43:52] <Lyberta> greycat, well, Linux is written in C so stop using C is basically saying to ditch Debian in favor of RedoxOS
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2781 [20:44:06] <Ouroboro> unfortunately, farms have tons of computers too these days
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2783 [20:44:09] <greycat> By using I mean writing programs in.
2784 [20:44:33] <Lyberta> greycat, I don't think I wrote pure C... well, maybe a few times
2785 [20:44:39] <greycat> It shows.
2786 [20:44:47] * annadane giggles
2787 [20:44:53] <Lyberta> I like my C++ exceptions
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2791 [20:46:16] <Ouroboro> you can probably implement exceptions in posix shell if you really want
2792 [20:46:26] * dgp likes C because he lives on a farm and cows aren't powerful enough to run the C++ stdlib
2793 [20:46:55] * greycat tosses replaced-url
2794 [20:47:17] <Ouroboro> greycat: luckily, i don't have web right now :P
2795 [20:47:22] <Lyberta> any ideas how to make lines 27-38 work? replaced-url
2796 [20:47:55] <jhutchins_wk> Error checking is what drove me away from C and from programming in general.
2797 [20:48:40] <Ouroboro> jhutchins_wk: a lot of that is a consequence of poor language design
2798 [20:49:12] * dgp wonder how you design something better on a PDP back in before-facebook time
2799 [20:49:13] <Ouroboro> especially the part where in c every library function has its own error handling convention
2800 [20:49:49] <dgp> Ouroboro: That's better than everything have the same bad convention ;)
2801 [20:49:54] <dgp> s/have/having/
2802 [20:50:03] <Ouroboro> that is technically correct
2803 [20:50:35] <Lyberta> dgp, I wonder why in 2018 people run crap designed for PDP
2804 [20:50:59] <Lyberta> thankfully, C++ modules will remove header files in new code
2805 [20:51:02] <dgp> Lyberta: because C can do literally anything. All of your new shiny languages can't do anything C can't
2806 [20:51:14] <Ouroboro> dgp: i agree though, people had different priorities in those days, but it is not necessarily a justification
2807 [20:51:46] <Lyberta> dgp, templates? can C do templates? constexpr? can C parse regex at compile time?
2808 [20:52:13] <dgp> Lyberta: Can C++ do that without a stdlib that implements it?
2809 [20:52:20] <greycat> "Do" means "produce results", not "be formatted in a certain way before compiling".
2810 [20:52:46] <Ouroboro> Lyberta: you can definitely implement the first and the third, not sure what the second is
2811 [20:52:55] <greycat> A C program can produce the same results given the same input as your C++ template obfuscated whatever-the-hell it is, it just won't look the same.
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2813 [20:53:14] <dgp> Lyberta: Using C++ doesn't magically convert your machine into some sort of super machine that works on a higher level of instruction set
2814 [20:53:32] <Ouroboro> Lyberta: probably all of the compile-time stuff can be implemented in cpp
2815 [20:53:51] <Ouroboro> cpp being c preprocessor
2816 [20:53:54] <Lyberta> good luck making that maintainable
2817 [20:54:02] <dgp> excuses
2818 [20:54:15] <Lyberta> afaik c++ good compile time vectors and maps now
2819 [20:54:35] <Lyberta> and I still dunno how to fix my set -e problem
2820 [20:54:42] <Lyberta> got*
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2822 [20:54:48] <greycat> You were told.
2823 [20:55:19] <dgp> Why not just use python and be done with it?
2824 [20:55:41] <greycat> If that answer keeps this person out of #bash forever, I support that answer.
2825 [20:56:22] <Lyberta> I dunno if official debian docker image comes with python preinstalled
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2828 [20:56:29] <Ouroboro> i haven't been to #bash in a year, i have forgotten literally everything
2829 [20:56:43] <annadane> greycat's site still exists ^
2830 [20:56:49] <greycat> Oh, it's a docker person too. That would earn an automatic /ignore from me.
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2834 [20:57:32] <annadane> replaced-url
2835 [20:57:35] <Ouroboro> dgp: do you really live on a farm?
2836 [20:57:35] <Lyberta> I haven't found any problems with docker, maybe it's just your elitism
2837 [20:57:46] <dgp> Ouroboro: no, but pretty close to it.
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2840 [20:57:56] <Ouroboro> nod
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2842 [20:59:31] <dgp> greycat: shipping a whole os is more maintainable than packaging stuff properly
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2844 [21:00:25] <bites> the base stretch docker image does not come with python.
2845 [21:00:27] <Lyberta> dgp, the fact that apt allows only one version of the package installed is already a red flag
2846 [21:00:28] <Ouroboro> some ship a whole computer
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2848 [21:01:13] <dgp> Lyberta: It's like that might break stuff or something
2849 [21:01:32] <dgp> apt can handle installing packages for multiple different cpu families at a time though
2850 [21:02:04] <dgp> s/at a time/at the same time/
2851 [21:02:24] <greycat> Only libraries and other things that don't share a file.
2852 [21:02:33] <Ouroboro> that is a limitation of the *nix fs structure, not apt
2853 [21:03:04] <dgp> greycat: yeah, but shared files should be in an all package really
2854 [21:03:42] <dgp> Lyberta: and debian ships multiple versions of php, python etc that can be installed at the same time
2855 [21:03:58] <Lyberta> dgp, they are different packages, right?
2856 [21:04:01] <bites> those have different names.
2857 [21:04:12] <greycat> dgp: I mean, you can't install coreutils:i386 and coreutils:amd64 because both packages would try to provide /bin/ls
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2859 [21:04:58] <Lyberta> dgp, I think in this day and age every user should have their own repo and pull stuff from global filesystem only if necessary
2860 [21:05:04] <greycat> *plonk*
2861 [21:05:11] <greycat> jeeeeesus
2862 [21:05:40] <Lyberta> when I build program I pull c++ libs into my user folder and link them
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2864 [21:06:02] <Lyberta> same with pip
2865 [21:06:10] <dgp> greycat: true. Just being able to install ARM libs and headers on an amd64 machine is pretty major for me at least
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2867 [21:06:49] <dgp> Lyberta: so you want to have duplicates of stuff all over the place with no hope of keeping it all up to date?
2868 [21:07:03] <Lyberta> dgp, up to the user
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2871 [21:07:22] <Ouroboro> dgp: have you never heard of winsxs? :P
2872 [21:07:23] <greycat> dgp: isn't that the python virtualenv model?
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2875 [21:07:49] <Lyberta> yes, you create as many virtualenvs as you need
2876 [21:07:56] <Lyberta> Guix supports that
2877 [21:08:08] <dgp> Lyberta: they'll love you when it turns out whatever locally installed version of openssl you link against turns out to be a piece of shit
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2879 [21:08:45] <Ouroboro> let's not talk about the debian version of openssl
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2881 [21:08:55] <Lyberta> dgp, in some cases I'm forced to use libssl1.0.0 because that's what is required by proprietary software
2882 [21:09:59] <bites> but there are already formats that do that. what sense does it make for debian to implement that?
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2884 [21:10:10] <bites> build an appimage or a snap package if you need to.
2885 [21:10:34] <Lyberta> I guess I'll have to at some point
2886 [21:10:59] <dgp> Lyberta: and Debian supplies old versions of libraries where needed for situations like that. There's not need to have multiple copies of stuff all over the place
2887 [21:11:04] <bites> for debian to replace apt with something like that would be insanity.
2888 [21:11:25] <dgp> s/not need/no need/
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2892 [21:12:08] <Ouroboro> yeah, the thing about apt is that it actually works, most of the time, let's try to not break that
2893 [21:12:45] <dgp> What he's talking about sounds like buildroot inception. You have on buildroot userland with just enough to download another copy of buildroot to compile another userland with whatever single application you need in it
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2903 [21:17:29] <Ouroboro> i guess i don't see a reason why you couldn't have a package manager that creates a tree structure of isolated packages
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2906 [21:18:59] <Ouroboro> it would just be more complex to maintain, i think that is the main argument against
2907 [21:19:09] <greycat> Because packages exist on a system, and they modify and affect the system. They provide files in a single file system space, and they provide services in a single init system's service name space, and some of these services listen on TCP ports, etc.
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2912 [21:20:36] <Ouroboro> yes, to the extent that there is a package called 'the system', of which there can only be one version, it does impose a limitation
2913 [21:20:47] <Lyberta> hence why ~/.local should become a root directory for programs under that user
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2915 [21:21:07] <greycat> Sounds like you want to reinvent virtual machines or containers or something.
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2917 [21:21:07] <dgp> why not call it .trashfire
2918 [21:21:08] <mebeeps> Wow! Feeling sexy :P
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2920 [21:21:46] <mazoltov> hey mebeeps
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2943 [21:33:40] <hxmuller> hello, is vanilla kernel compilation question a topic for here, or #debian-next?
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2945 [21:34:06] <greycat> if you're building a .deb of it according to the Debian Kernel Handbook, then it's here
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2950 [21:36:41] <hxmuller> greycat: thanks, will ask in a bit. have to run an errand suddenly.
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3005 [21:55:41] <valeech> Hello - What is a good method to verify a process I want to pin to a specific cpu with taskset has actually been pinned t othat cpu? When I run taskset on a process, ps still shows it running on the original cpu. Does taskset move the process immediately or over some time period?
3006 [21:56:10] <greycat> If you can't tell whether it worked or not, then it must not have been a vitally important thing to do.
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3066 [22:26:28] <Kocane> Am I just bad at Googling or is it not possible to get Intel Quick Sync hwacc for h264, etc, on Debian?
3067 [22:26:36] <Kocane> I saw some Ubuntu guides but I guess it don't really help me.
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3072 [22:29:13] <dgp> Kocane: package names etc in the ubuntu guide should line up with debian.
3073 [22:29:37] <Kocane> dgp: I tried the deb I downloaded as per someguys guide; intel-graphics-update-tool_2.0.6_amd64.deb
3074 [22:29:42] <Kocane> Its for ubuntu 17.04
3075 [22:30:05] <Kocane> Fails with missing package fonts-symbola and aptdaemon
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3077 [22:30:32] <greycat> Well, debian has fonts-symbola
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3079 [22:30:55] <greycat> And "aptdaemon" is "purely virtual", so a good "apt-get -f install" ought to do something.
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3081 [22:31:25] <greycat> Not endorsing this notion of "download and install a .deb mentioned in some random ubuntu guide", but if it works....
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3083 [22:31:34] <jelly> ,v aptdaemon
3084 [22:31:35] <judd> Package: aptdaemon on amd64 -- wheezy: 0.45-2+deb7u1; jessie: 1.1.1-4+deb8u1
3085 [22:31:46] <greycat> Ah, may need to add a jessie line.
3086 [22:32:10] <jelly> ,v python3-aptdaemon
3087 [22:32:11] <judd> Package: python3-aptdaemon on amd64 -- jessie: 1.1.1-4+deb8u1
3088 [22:32:55] <jelly> ,bug rm aptdaemon
3089 [22:32:58] <judd> Bug replaced-url
3090 [22:33:10] <Kocane> greycat how is it I add the jessie line to get some jessie packages?
3091 [22:33:37] <jelly> what is intel quick sync?
3092 [22:33:53] <jelly> hw decoding of h264 is done via VAAPI
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3094 [22:34:01] <Kocane> how about encoding?
3095 [22:34:29] <Kocane> It's my understanding that, that is what Quick Sync can be used for.. Hwacc for encoding
3096 [22:35:50] <jelly> I have no idea about that
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3114 [22:48:20] <Kocane> I installed some aptdaemon and fonts-symbola debs i found
3115 [22:48:21] <Kocane> for Jessie
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3117 [22:48:29] <Kocane> I don't know how bad an idea that is
3118 [22:48:34] <Kocane> running Stretch
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3152 [23:05:40] <Tazmain> Hi all, if I wanted to use debian for my work laptop (arch user at home) there is a unstable repo to be more up to date right ?
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3154 [23:05:57] <Tazmain> like I would like to keep up with VS code and intelliJ
3155 [23:06:03] <well_laid_lawn> yep
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3158 [23:06:59] <Tazmain> dam google I want to find results for debina not ubuntu
3159 [23:07:36] <Tazmain> how stable is plasma on debian? Its solid on arch, and kaosx
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3161 [23:08:17] <mefistofeles> Tazmain: debian uses the LTS plasma release, which is pretty stable
3162 [23:08:41] <Tazmain> what version is plasma-desktop on currently ?
3163 [23:08:57] <Tazmain> I am on 5.12
3164 [23:09:00] <greycat> ,v plasma-desktop
3165 [23:09:01] <judd> Package: plasma-desktop on amd64 -- wheezy: 4:4.8.4-6; jessie: 4:4.11.13-2; stretch: 4:5.8.6-1; buster: 4:5.12.5-1; sid: 4:5.12.5-1
3166 [23:09:02] <mefistofeles> Tazmain: 5.8 is the LTS
3167 [23:09:13] <mefistofeles> greycat: thanks
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3169 [23:09:21] <greycat> if you're on 5.12 then you're in #debian-next territory at least
3170 [23:09:22] <farruinn> Tazmain: packages.debian.org
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3172 [23:09:29] <Tazmain> oh so if I use sid I can get 5.12 ?
3173 [23:09:33] <mefistofeles> sure
3174 [23:09:40] <mefistofeles> or buster
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3176 [23:09:55] <greycat> you just said you already had 5.12
3177 [23:09:57] <Tazmain> greycat, isn't that unstable ?
3178 [23:10:02] <Tazmain> yeah on my arch install :p
3179 [23:10:07] <Tazmain> picking a distro for work
3180 [23:10:08] <greycat> ...
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3183 [23:10:42] <annadane> the newest upstream is 5.13 which should be in sid soon, sid currently has AFAIK, 5.12, but it's your call whether you want to use unstable for a newer plasma, it's obviously riskier than stable
3184 [23:10:50] <Tazmain> I know 5.12 is good, that's why I asked
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3187 [23:11:03] <greycat> judd just told us what every branch has
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3189 [23:11:27] <Tazmain> hmm depends on how the package maintainer is, kaos runs bleeding edge plasma without issues
3190 [23:11:44] <mefistofeles> Tazmain: just use whatever suits you best
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3192 [23:12:42] <Tazmain> ,v intelliJ
3193 [23:12:43] <judd> No package named 'intelliJ' was found in amd64.
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3195 [23:13:23] <somiaj> Tazmain: sure, but kaos isn't debian, and so isn't a solution to someone running debian.
3196 [23:13:41] <Tazmain> somiaj, no I understand, and they focus on just plasma as well.
3197 [23:14:27] <somiaj> debian often has to port, ensure that these big desktops work on different arches besides i386/amd64
3198 [23:14:32] <annadane> if you just want a comparison of plasma in different distros, i'd try ##linux
3199 [23:14:41] <annadane> debian support is unlikely to know every single distribution
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3202 [23:14:55] <Tazmain> debian still supports 32bit ?
3203 [23:15:30] <annadane> personally if i really wanted 5.13 i'd probably still just use debian as i'm most familiar with it
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3206 [23:17:32] <mefistofeles> Tazmain: yes
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3210 [23:19:00] <annadane> i've only ever really gone through 2 KDE transitions, one took a long time, the other took a few days
3211 [23:19:37] <annadane> but stable of course will be 5.8 until the next stable release so if you want to discuss 5.13 in debian then #debian-next on irc.oftc.net is the place to be
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3217 [23:21:05] <Tazmain> I don't want 5.13
3218 [23:21:08] <Tazmain> 5.12 is fine
3219 [23:21:19] <Tazmain> I just want kdeconnect really, and the fixes in 5.12
3220 [23:21:25] <annadane> oh, sorry, i obviously can't read
3221 [23:21:29] <annadane> yeah, sid is already on 5.12
3222 [23:21:38] <annadane> ,v plasma-desktop
3223 [23:21:39] <judd> Package: plasma-desktop on amd64 -- wheezy: 4:4.8.4-6; jessie: 4:4.11.13-2; stretch: 4:5.8.6-1; buster: 4:5.12.5-1; sid: 4:5.12.5-1
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3231 [23:30:20] <Tazmain> is it recommended to to a reinstall over distr-upgrade?
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3233 [23:31:00] <babilen> dist-upgrade from what to what?
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3236 [23:31:37] <Tazmain> one version to the next
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3239 [23:32:14] <mefistofeles> Tazmain: dist-upgrade is fine as long as you have been a good sys admin and know what you are doing
3240 [23:32:19] <mefistofeles> that is, follow recommendations
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3243 [23:32:37] <somiaj> Tazmain: what version are you running and what version do you want to dist-upgrade too
3244 [23:32:39] <babilen> Tazmain: Generally speaking you want to simply upgrade (dist-upgrade). I'm under the impression that you might want to "upgrade" to testing or unstable. Is that correct?
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3246 [23:33:06] <Tazmain> I would be running the unstable repo yes
3247 [23:33:12] <babilen> Upgrades between stable releases are documented in the release notes
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3250 [23:34:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1583
3251 [23:34:23] <babilen> Tazmain: In that case, I'd add testing and unstable repos first and set testing/buster as default release. Then upgrade and once that's done, you can remove the configuration to set the default release and install the packages that are in unstable but not testing
3252 [23:34:30] <babilen> dpkg: tum
3253 [23:34:30] <dpkg> «echo 'APT::Default-Release "testing";' >> /etc/apt/apt.conf», edit sources.list, copy your non-security testing lines and change one set to unstable, then apt-get update. Use apt-get -t unstable install foo; to install foo from unstable rather than testing as usual. WARNING to SYNAPTIC users: Synaptic ignores Default-Release: set Preferences->Distribution.
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3256 [23:35:13] <Tazmain> babilen, and partition
3257 [23:35:24] <babilen> partition?
3258 [23:35:54] <Tazmain> yeah /root /home /var etc
3259 [23:36:01] <babilen> I'd also recommend to read replaced-url
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3263 [23:36:39] <babilen> Sorry, I don't quite follow - How does "partitioning" affect installing packages from testing or unstable?
3264 [23:36:57] <Tazmain> babilen, oh if I had to reinstall or an upgrade broke
3265 [23:37:04] <Tazmain> ooh unstable looks good
3266 [23:37:04] <annadane> upgrades have the best chance of succeeding if you do it from a minimal install
3267 [23:37:15] <annadane> which is what i always do
3268 [23:37:39] <babilen> Tazmain: make sure to install apt-listbugs and to configure it to show important bugs as well
3269 [23:38:22] <Tazmain> oh I didn't even know about this
3270 [23:38:25] <Tazmain> thanks babilen
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3272 [23:38:45] <babilen> Read the DebianUnstable wiki page, we tried to summarise a lot of "best practices" there
3273 [23:39:10] <babilen> Also - Testing and unstable are supported in #debian-next on irc.oftc.net rather than here
3274 [23:39:50] <Tazmain> will check it out
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3276 [23:41:40] <babilen> Testing and unstable are fairly boring at the moment, but I only run a pretty minimal system (Xorg, i3, gnome-terminal, emacs25, …) so I'm not sure how that translates to larger DEs
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3278 [23:41:49] <babilen> boring as in "not much breaking"
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context: nick names on moving displays as market values
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